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Author Topic: The Lost Shores - Nov 16-18  (Read 21137 times)
Modern Angel
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Reply #35 on: November 13, 2012, 12:13:28 PM

I've actually come to really like the dungeons. Once you get yellow or above gear (I'm still rocking mostly yellows) and have a semi-competent group, they're fast and fun. I do miss the kind of instant gratification which Rift provides in that department, and I also actually like diku play within dungeons, but it's REALLY hard to go back to the accompanying crap (dailies, static combat, mountains of hot keys), as I discovered with the free Rift reactivation.
Lantyssa
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Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 12:37:16 PM

I'm only enjoying the dungeons because Sachiel and Selma grabbed myself and Vu to start running them.  We make a good group that can take just about anyone else along in the fifth slot.  Vu and I also run with our tiny little guild, and while we can make it to the end of most, it's just nowhere near as smooth.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
sachiel
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Reply #37 on: November 13, 2012, 12:55:00 PM

I'm only enjoying the dungeons because Sachiel and Selma grabbed myself and Vu to start running them.  We make a good group that can take just about anyone else along in the fifth slot.  Vu and I also run with our tiny little guild, and while we can make it to the end of most, it's just nowhere near as smooth.

I'm honestly looking forward to the new dungeons.  I've still only done about 15% of the various explore paths across all the different dungeons.  I ran CoE paths 2 & 3 for the first time this morning on Selma.  Pretty damn fun, but definitely more challenging than AC.  Some of that is probably due to new experience with it and 1/2 the group.  It was definitely more profitable as far as gold goes with the Cores/Lodestones.  Those two runs and I cleared about 4.5-5 gp from 3 core drops and a few yellows -> ectos.  Fun content though, and it was a nice change of scenery.  The only complaint was the flame-shield destroyer where 3 people man lasers and then two just range dps where the boss can't hit them.  Was pretty slow/boring, but they said it's actually faster than running back and forth from the lasers and all 5 damaging the boss and risking getting chucked into the lava with a REALLY long run back from the waypoint. 
Ingmar
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Reply #38 on: November 13, 2012, 01:10:18 PM

The way I'm reading this (or at least, choosing to) is that the Ascended gear has marginally better straight stats than Exotic gear but is balanced by having Infusion slots instead of Upgrade slots. The Infusion slots exist purely to counteract Agony, which is (and I sincerely hope remains) an NPC/Mob condition that won't be available to players and therefore won't affect PvP/WvW. The Infusion items, if ANet have any goddamn sense at all, will be beneficial purely for these Fractal dungeons but remain close enough to Exotics stats-wise that you might not bother swapping armours out to play standard PvE etc. Another caveat to wearing Ascended items may be that you won't have access to set bonuses. I'd probably be happiest if the Ascended gear was kept strictly to non-aesthetic items; ie the accessory slots (with the exception of the back slot which you can see if you choose to display it). That way the standard visual gear implementation in the game remains as it always was - hard stat ceiling aesthetic prestige.

I guarantee the infusion slots will have generally useful stats attached in addition to negating Agony.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
tazelbain
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Reply #39 on: November 13, 2012, 01:13:13 PM

Fuck this.

"Me am play gods"
Lantyssa
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Reply #40 on: November 13, 2012, 03:08:15 PM

I'm honestly looking forward to the new dungeons.
We are, too.  AC is getting old.  4-5 more paths and I'll have Siobhan in all her armor.  Vu has pretty much everything needed.  And with STAR, we're going to be in there a bit longer while the others l2p.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
kildorn
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Reply #41 on: November 13, 2012, 05:37:22 PM

I'm only enjoying the dungeons because Sachiel and Selma grabbed myself and Vu to start running them.  We make a good group that can take just about anyone else along in the fifth slot.  Vu and I also run with our tiny little guild, and while we can make it to the end of most, it's just nowhere near as smooth.

QQ, I need to be on more when you run them. I kinda like the dungeons.
luckton
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Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 06:18:35 PM

Trying to dive into all of the GW2 stuff feet first to prep for the trial weekend, and I'm skimming through posts and what-not trying to absorb info.

I can tell there's a lot of angst in this thread.  Could anyone nutshell this for the layman?   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Venkman
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Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 06:25:04 PM

Hmm, Agony/Infusions in a particular dungeon means I probably won't see it until they become common world drops  Ohhhhh, I see.

Nope. They're prestige only.
Ah, that's awesome. Don't need to worry about that then.

I can tell there's a lot of angst in this thread.  Could anyone nutshell this for the layman?   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

From a game play standpoint, you're at least 100 hours away from worrying about anything posted in the last 30 threads on this sub-board. Shit, I'm like 150-whatever hours in and I'm still asking newb questions. I love GW2 like I haven't loved an MMO since the first few months of WoW. This has come closest to giving me everything I want, from 5 minute sessions that have demonstrable rewards all the way to super fluid groups that don't require OCD-levels of attentiveness in four hour blocks.

Outside of that: any specific questions?
Ingmar
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Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 06:26:14 PM

TLDR version:

Everyone expected the GW1 system where the top end gear is essentially a flat cap that never goes up over the life of the game. ArenaNet introduces gear that goes over the established cap a mere 3 months in. Rage ensues.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
luckton
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Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 06:33:43 PM

TLDR version:

Everyone expected the GW1 system where the top end gear is essentially a flat cap that never goes up over the life of the game. ArenaNet introduces gear that goes over the established cap a mere 3 months in. Rage ensues.

Ah, I get it.  But then if the top end gear never becomes better than anything else, what's the point of introducing new gear unless it's just cosmetically different?

From a game play standpoint, you're at least 100 hours away from worrying about anything posted in the last 30 threads on this sub-board. Shit, I'm like 150-whatever hours in and I'm still asking newb questions. I love GW2 like I haven't loved an MMO since the first few months of WoW. This has come closest to giving me everything I want, from 5 minute sessions that have demonstrable rewards all the way to super fluid groups that don't require OCD-levels of attentiveness in four hour blocks.

Outside of that: any specific questions?

No, nothing specific.  I'm just intrigued over how angsty it appears people are getting over something.  I'm sure that if I commit and pick this up, by the time I am of level to concern myself over the events of this thread, the matter will probably have resolved itself.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Ingmar
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Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 06:36:33 PM

TLDR version:

Everyone expected the GW1 system where the top end gear is essentially a flat cap that never goes up over the life of the game. ArenaNet introduces gear that goes over the established cap a mere 3 months in. Rage ensues.

Ah, I get it.  But then if the top end gear never becomes better than anything else, what's the point of introducing new gear unless it's just cosmetically different?


WELCOME TO GUILD WARS!

Most of the angst is due to the possible effects of the PVE gear grind on WvW. Note that the ONLY other successful RVR style game, DAOC, also had stat caps. That is not a coincidence.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
luckton
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Reply #47 on: November 13, 2012, 06:41:36 PM

Mmm...DAoC...pretty much my main drive to this game now, as an updated version of that.  Plus an Engineer class with turrets, guns, pyrotechnics, and alchemy?   Heart

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Venkman
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Reply #48 on: November 13, 2012, 06:48:00 PM

No, nothing specific.  I'm just intrigued over how angsty it appears people are getting over something.  I'm sure that if I commit and pick this up, by the time I am of level to concern myself over the events of this thread, the matter will probably have resolved itself.
Ah. Yea I gave up on the idea of one game doing PvP and PvE equally well a decade ago. The one example used to cite doing it right worked well for a market too small to justify a huge development budget.

It's hella easier to maintain revenue flow from new content than from e-Sports PvP. Anet is trying to push for the latter. But unlike the well-proven model of content releases, e-Sports is up against games that already are e-Sports in an industry that's contracting in some parts.

I applaud Anet trying though. Good to have a game that tries to hit more than just one or two types of players, particularly when the engine is so dynamic they can quickly adapt.
Modern Angel
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Reply #49 on: November 13, 2012, 09:03:39 PM

I'm just not feeling the anger, dudes. The ring they showed was what? +2 on two stats.
kildorn
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Reply #50 on: November 13, 2012, 09:36:09 PM

I'm just not feeling the anger, dudes. The ring they showed was what? +2 on two stats.

+4, IIRC. The issue is that the total comes out to an 8% stat increase when the set is done. Which in RVR turns into "you must raid to pvp"
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #51 on: November 13, 2012, 09:37:13 PM

Quote from: colin johanson
This metric of success impacted a lot of our early content-related design decisions for Guild Wars 2. Some examples include:

    Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you donít need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but itís not required to play the game. We donít need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who donít are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

This is what they promised.  This is what they delivered.  This is what they have gone back on.

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Ingmar
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Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 09:50:18 PM

I'm just not feeling the anger, dudes. The ring they showed was what? +2 on two stats.

+4, IIRC. The issue is that the total comes out to an 8% stat increase when the set is done. Which in RVR turns into "you must raid to pvp"

This.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 09:58:11 PM

Not automatically +4, since we don't know what the general set bonus on exotics now versus slot fillers on the new stuff shakes out like.
Venkman
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Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 10:58:25 PM

Yea. There's quite a bit of anger for what amounts to a single screenshot  Ohhhhh, I see.

I can't quite see how this game can't have an item progression. Game's so easy almost everyone will be in full exotics by Christmas. Where do you go from there when even someone like me can buy half a set of Mortal right now if someone would just get around to unlocking the damned Cathedral  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I don't know if they're shocked we're all leveling this fast, if they figured we'd mostly be in WvWvW or if they thought most of the achievers would go back to WoW for Mists or something. But I get the sense that between the e-Sport stuff they launched with the Halloween event and now the Ascended, they're scrambling to keep pace with the players.
Ingmar
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Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 11:30:17 PM

GW1 had no item progression. DAOC had no item progression, until they sort of added one in ToA and everyone agreed it was a horrible idea. It can be done. It *should* be done, for RVR style games.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
rk47
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Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 11:46:55 PM

I like how another poster in another forum summed it best.

Quote
Upcoming update will add a new arbitrarily difficult dungeon and new arbitrarily stronger armor that lets you beat the dungeon once you have grinded to get it.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
rk47
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Reply #57 on: November 13, 2012, 11:49:23 PM

I'm just not feeling the anger, dudes. The ring they showed was what? +2 on two stats.

+4, IIRC. The issue is that the total comes out to an 8% stat increase when the set is done. Which in RVR turns into "you must raid to pvp"

??

uh...


Are you sure?
Did miss the 18 Prec and 18 Power? Or without the gem, the Exotic alone isn't up to par?

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Ard
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Reply #58 on: November 14, 2012, 12:41:09 AM

Okay, if we really want to argue about how much the stats matter, we need to point a finger at the real number.  On any gear that has +magic find, that is the primary stat.  The ascended ring is +3% higher, which is actually a really huge number, and makes me worried about how the non-magic find gear stats are scaled.

Edit:
There's also been an official post about the concerns.  The short of it is that they're saying they'll eventually have other avenues for getting ascended gear, including wvwvw, but that doesn't solve the immediate problem any.  They do however have a 130 page thread full of rage on their hands, so I'd like to think they've had their noses rubbed in the problem they created.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 12:50:46 AM by Ard »
Ingmar
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Reply #59 on: November 14, 2012, 01:10:33 AM

Thing is that 3% difference in magic find, if translated into a non % stat, is a much bigger number. (EDIT: Right, read last post before posting.)

So the non exotic is +5 better on the non main stats, +3% better on the 'main' stat, whatever that works out to being, and then gets whatever the infusion slot gives on top of that. The aggregate difference is going to be quite large when spread across every item slot, with the caveat that it is yet to be determined what the infusion slots will offer in comparison to runes and sigils for weapons and the 6 armor slots.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
kildorn
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Reply #60 on: November 14, 2012, 01:40:34 AM

I'm just not feeling the anger, dudes. The ring they showed was what? +2 on two stats.

+4, IIRC. The issue is that the total comes out to an 8% stat increase when the set is done. Which in RVR turns into "you must raid to pvp"

??

uh...


Are you sure?
Did miss the 18 Prec and 18 Power? Or without the gem, the Exotic alone isn't up to par?

I was wrong, it's worth 10 raw stat points, plus whatever the MF translates to (I believe it's about 7 more if it was a real stat instead of MF).

The Ascended stuff's problem is that it's a decent raw stat boost because the ilvl is going up, and the built in runes/gems/whathave you appear to also have gotten an ilvl increase. This is all assuming that Infusions are completely restricted to the new progression content and has absolutely no function outside of it.

So.. basically someone in full Ascended > someone in full Exotics in WvW as it stands. Which is what the fuss is about.

edit: from that link:

Quote
Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

Dear Studio Design Director who has apparently never played Guild Wars 2: calling the jump between Exotic and Legendary "massive" is a bit strange when the jump between Legendary and Ascended is massive, and the jump between Exotic and Legendary is absolutely nothing.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 01:43:10 AM by kildorn »
rk47
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Reply #61 on: November 14, 2012, 02:26:46 AM

They're going to push up Legendary stats to Ascended level though. Argument being : Legendary is and will always be the TOP STAT YOU CAN HAVE ON YOUR EQUIP SLOT.

Ah well, I'm having fun as Engineer now.. healing in instances... chaining around 30 second of regen with Dwayna runes. Was fun farming Ascalon.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Zetor
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Reply #62 on: November 14, 2012, 03:40:25 AM

I've pugged a few explorable dungeons (and all storymode dungeons) and didn't find them too hard. They do require a very different approach compared to normal gameplay, though (HUGE emphasis on mass cc/blind and focus fire for trash packs, buffs/personal survival CDs for boss fights, good use of dodge, etc). Also, explorable dungeons didn't feel much harder than storymode dungeons to me (hi, 2nd boss of Sorrow's Embrace storymode + golem zerg event in COE), which is a bit of a headscratcher.

Going back to the ascended/legendary question, though - won't this just lead to elitism? I know that some PUGs already discriminate based on titles and cosmetic gear ("dungeon master title only", "arah gear only, gtfo with your scrub AC gear"), actual stat differences will be even worse.

rk47
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Reply #63 on: November 14, 2012, 03:48:43 AM

Zetor, i duno which crowd you ran with, the gear appearance didn't matter shit. It was the stats you were after.
AC gear had Power Tough and Vitality, something that any class would need to survive in High Damage dungeon environment.
That example was pretty terrible.

The only way people are not getting in my party is when they're not even at the recommended level, like taking a lvl 75 to Citadel of Flame. The Gate Brazier in P1 would fuck the party over unless the main gate DPS do it quick, while Path 2 requires a certain amount of tankiness when Magg plants the bomb.
Path 3 can go fuck itself.

But Elitism due to Ascended? Hell yes. This will happen since most encounters difficulty can be reduced with a soft gear check. Gone is the day when people tell you to pick up either Temple Karma gear, HotW, or AC for some much needed defense in dungeon. It's all infusion or agony will kill you now. World v World crowd practically hates this, they rely on Karma Gear / precious Badges to buy the pieces. Some resorted to buying gold to keep up with the Siege Engines and other costs...

Good for A.net/Farmer cashflow...but not gonna help them stay long.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Zetor
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Reply #64 on: November 14, 2012, 04:14:44 AM

I know there's no stat difference between AC and Arah, it just serves to underline that some people will be elitist assholes about gear even if it doesn't have stats. Same idea with having to link raid achievements to get in PUGs in WOW. Only now with the ascended gear such elitism will be a lot more wide-spread...

e: I think some of this could apply to GW1 too, actually. Most PVP groups for TA/AB/etc only accepted pugs that had a high pvp rank already. I'm not sure if you needed to have a certain grind-title to get in the high-end elite dungeon runs like DOA or Underworld, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 04:16:52 AM by Zetor »

Modern Angel
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Reply #65 on: November 14, 2012, 07:02:54 AM

What in the world? There are a ton of options available besides worrying about dudes and their e-peens. Join a guild. Find better people to run with. Do more low-key PUGs.

Here's where I'm at on this:

1) We don't know how this works out without the slot filler stats
2) I can guarantee that the power differential between new gear and old will be substantially less than that between a WvW 80 in bad gear and a WvW 30 in spectacular gear. We're not calling for bans to people under 80 in WvW. We're not calling for bans of 80s in green gear in WvW.
3) We still don't even have reliable theorycrafting for this game to show how the raw stat differentials matter, meaning that we're speculating even more wildly on what this "means". If we're going to freak out (and some of you guys are really close to freaking out and leaving a game which you seem to REALLY enjoy over this), then it would probably be good to base that in actual numbers and how the game actually works, neither of which we quite have. 8% in stats across all items (and we still haven't talked about the BIG bonuses from set bonuses in normal gear) does NOT necessarily mean an 8% increase in damage, survivability, etc.
4) The people with the coverage and the tactics are going to trump gear, anyway. That won't change.

Of all the problems with the game, and despite how much I like it they're numerous, this doesn't seem like it's going to end up being the massive deal being touted. The part I do agree with is that they said if they did this, they've fucked up. That's their own viewpoint and they should be held to that.
murdoc
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Reply #66 on: November 14, 2012, 08:32:09 AM

I know there's no stat difference between AC and Arah, it just serves to underline that some people will be elitist assholes about gear even if it doesn't have stats. Same idea with having to link raid achievements to get in PUGs in WOW. Only now with the ascended gear such elitism will be a lot more wide-spread...

e: I think some of this could apply to GW1 too, actually. Most PVP groups for TA/AB/etc only accepted pugs that had a high pvp rank already. I'm not sure if you needed to have a certain grind-title to get in the high-end elite dungeon runs like DOA or Underworld, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

I've seen people ask for level 80 only, or no glass cannons (which is funny, since that's basically saying "DPS spot filled" but no one wants to use the term DPS) - but having specific dungeon gear is  swamp poop.

The Ascended stuff will be more than elitism though, you NEED infusions to go further into the fractals. It'll not even be just elitism blocking people, it's the fact that Agony is gonna tick a percentage of your health and that percentage will go up the deeper you go, unless you have the infusions to counteract it.

And if the stat increase is going to be 8-10% on each item, it could become necessary to grind it for WvW at 80, let alone someone that wants to go into WvW at an earlier level. Even now, it's pretty easy to tell when you run into a sub 80 in PvP.

Having said that, they ARE rolling it out pretty slowly and it still remains to be seen how tough it'll be to aquire Ascended gear. Upgrading a slot or 3 every few months isn't terrible as long as I don't have to grind one specific dungeon for it.

Plus, I am really looking forward to a level 80 zone that isn't full of stupid lazy-design Fallen.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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Reply #67 on: November 14, 2012, 08:40:10 AM

Honestly, I'm actually looking forward to this patch too. New high-end zone, new dungeon -- all good. I'd really like some sort of LFD, since dungeoning is fun, while standing around in LA (overflow) isn't very fun.

My main angst is just that they're introducing this new gear tier that kind of contradicts what they've been saying all along (and how it worked in GW1 - after all, getting max-level armor/weapons only a few hours into a campaign was one of the best things about it). I was also talking about doing other dungeons (without agony) where elitism could be a problem. "LF2M Arah explorable - I don't want to waste 2 hours on Giganticus Lupicus with scrubs, so show me that you have {a dungeon master title}/{a full set of Arah gear}/{full ascended gear}!"
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:42:00 AM by Zetor »

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Reply #68 on: November 14, 2012, 11:01:16 AM

Is this max level stuff? I'll probably miss the event stuff this weekend anyway. And I'm a ways from max level, still. I really dig this game being f2p.

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Reply #69 on: November 14, 2012, 11:02:35 AM

It's max level, but everyone will be scaled to 80 [just like with Halloween].

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