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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 186329 times)
SurfD
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Reply #70 on: November 20, 2012, 01:17:24 PM

The biggest issue I have with that system is this. If you are going to make it tough to spend the points, just don't give them out so freely.
Why? Its not like there isnt: A: A weekly cap on how many you can earn and B: a maximum cap that further limits the ability to hoard them. I mean, sheesh, most of the heavily "gated" Valor items (head, chest, Legs) which are available only at revered require 2250 VP.  Thats 2.25 weeks worth of Valor.  If you have not managed to get at least one faction with valor gear to revered by that time, you are not really trying.  Klaxxi / Shadowpan are like 1 week to revered provided you quest through their zones at the same time.

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cmlancas
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Reply #71 on: November 20, 2012, 01:31:48 PM

I think quite a few players find the grind to Exalted to be weary.  My objection is the epic pieces are gated behind Exalted rather than Revered.

This might be part of the argument lost in our discussions at present.

That being said, I still think the idea of forced dailies is stupid.  They're not forced unless you force them upon yourself.  But, maybe since players are so achievement-driven it's Blizzard's fault they feel forced.  Kinda like I feel obligated to eat all my super-size fries and drink my bucket-o-soda.

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Paelos
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Reply #72 on: November 20, 2012, 01:52:39 PM

The biggest issue I have with that system is this. If you are going to make it tough to spend the points, just don't give them out so freely.
Why? Its not like there isnt: A: A weekly cap on how many you can earn and B: a maximum cap that further limits the ability to hoard them. I mean, sheesh, most of the heavily "gated" Valor items (head, chest, Legs) which are available only at revered require 2250 VP.  Thats 2.25 weeks worth of Valor.  If you have not managed to get at least one faction with valor gear to revered by that time, you are not really trying.  Klaxxi / Shadowpan are like 1 week to revered provided you quest through their zones at the same time.

Why should you have to "try" now. You didn't have to try to use the points before, cap or no cap. You just went to a vendor and spent them. Why are you defending this change?

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Rokal
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Reply #73 on: November 20, 2012, 02:31:58 PM

It's not a great change but it's hardly the game-breaking issue you're making it out to be. If you do not want to do dailies, spend a couple months worth of VP on honored VP pieces or PVP gear. The end.

I also think you're exaggerating how easily VP is being given out. If you do the dungeon daily for 80 points (which was only recently buffed to 80 iirc) *every day*, you're at 560 VP. If you do both halves of MSV LFR that would only bring you to 740. That's doing all the "weekly" content you could be expected to do without doing dailies, and it's not even 75% of the cap.

The daily factions are not mandatory, especially if you are not trying to do any harder content that the gear would actually help you with. Remember that the VP gear won't even help you with Challenge modes because it is scaled down to 463. It helps you with raiding but if you're doing LFR the help isn't really necessary.

The bigger problem with MoP dailies is that they aren't fun, and they were billed as being revolutionary compared to the dailies from previous expansions. Turns out they are just the old daily quests from previous expansions but with *slightly* more quest variety between days and the occasional NPC assistant that makes the quests more difficult. As the primary format of solo content at 90, they're terrible. Fortunately, they're also pretty easy to ignore.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 02:33:50 PM by Rokal »
SurfD
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Reply #74 on: November 20, 2012, 04:20:51 PM

I think quite a few players find the grind to Exalted to be weary.  My objection is the epic pieces are gated behind Exalted rather than Revered.

This might be part of the argument lost in our discussions at present.

That being said, I still think the idea of forced dailies is stupid.  They're not forced unless you force them upon yourself.  But, maybe since players are so achievement-driven it's Blizzard's fault they feel forced.  Kinda like I feel obligated to eat all my super-size fries and drink my bucket-o-soda.
No epic gear is gated to exalted that I am aware of.  All of the exalted rewards are cosmetic (mounts, Xmog hats, tabards, and other fluff).  All of the Valor gear is available at either honored (for rings, capes, bracers and necks) or Revered (for everything else).

Why should you have to "try" now. You didn't have to try to use the points before, cap or no cap. You just went to a vendor and spent them. Why are you defending this change?
Why shouldn't you have to "try"?  Blizzard has quite clearly explained why they made the change.  They felt that having dungeons, which already reward you with gear, also reward you with valor AND rep at no additional effort was putting too much reward into one basket.  So they split the rep off and made it it's own little thing, then put the valor behind a bit of rep gating:  You still get gratuitous valor for running dungeons, but now you have to do at least a small amount of work in order to cash in that reward.  I really see no problem with it.  Especially since the "grind" to revered so you can spend the stuff is only really a grind for 1 out of the 4 factions (Celestials), with the other 3 being relatively easy to hit revered.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 04:23:24 PM by SurfD »

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Paelos
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Reply #75 on: November 20, 2012, 04:39:29 PM

Glad yall think it's a great decision. It's not, and they will change it eventually when they pull their heads out of their asses over the backlash.

What horrifies me the most is how quickly some of you are to jump on the "it's just a little rep grind, get over it" bandwagon. Rep grinds were and always will be one of the dumber things they put into these games. And guess what? In the next patch we get another one.

That's not content.

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Rokal
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Reply #76 on: November 20, 2012, 05:28:03 PM

No epic gear is gated to exalted that I am aware of.

Exalted Klaxxi and Golden Lotus get you a free 489 ring/necklace. Going from revered to exalted for these items was soul-crushing, and I'd have been much happier if they stuck with their original goal of having exalted rewards be 100% cosmetic.

Rep grinds were and always will be one of the dumber things they put into these games.

Suggest alternative solo content would keep people subscribed (in other words, is repeatable) and wouldn't completely annihilate the time/budget of the game or accept dailies as business-driven content that isn't your cup of tea. You know, like raid content designed to be wiped on or farmed for months worth of subscription-fees. If the content isn't your cup of tea, don't do it. My partner hates dailies and has done exactly 0 of them in MoP. He's still progressing just fine using the other paths available for gear and the VP gear unlocked at honored.

For what it's worth, I actually liked the Tillers dailies. Quick, easy, and with a decent feeling of story progression. Anglers dailies were also a nice goal-driven way to level fishing. Not all the dailies factions were bad. I think it's possible for WoW to feature daily quests hubs that aren't completely awful.

They clearly tried to do the same thing with the other factions, but in an effort to make them last longer then gave the quests really pitiful rep returns. I think the "correct" reputation design for MoP would have been exactly what we got but double the pace.

Well, I also wouldn't cry if they removed August Celestials rep from the game. Some of those quests are actually pretty cool, but another two factions after Klaxxi/GL is a tough pill to swallow and I don't really get the story logic behind the rep in the way that I do for all of the other factions.
SurfD
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Reply #77 on: November 20, 2012, 07:35:38 PM

No epic gear is gated to exalted that I am aware of.

Exalted Klaxxi and Golden Lotus get you a free 489 ring/necklace. Going from revered to exalted for these items was soul-crushing, and I'd have been much happier if they stuck with their original goal of having exalted rewards be 100% cosmetic.
That's a bit of a stretch to lump the two quest reward epic rings in as gated content.  Especially when there are valor equivilants at honored.  If that was the ONLY place to get epic rings for non raiders, you might have a point, but it's not, so you really dont.  Those are free rewards for reaching exalted, not gated rewards (like honored / revered Valor gear)

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Paelos
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Reply #78 on: November 20, 2012, 07:35:57 PM

Here's some better ideas than rep grinding Blizzard should add:

Solo scenarios. Why do these have to be with other people at all?
Renovating old dungeons/raids to offer other cosmetic rewards for clearing them solo (they are sort of doing this in the next patch with pets).
More daily server contests like the fishing thing. Perhaps a scavenger hunt on the server.
Better stuff in archeology like finding buried gems or trade items occasionally.
Add a gambling game or interface so people can play simple dice games with their gold or something.

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Rokal
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Reply #79 on: November 20, 2012, 09:51:42 PM

That's a bit of a stretch to lump the two quest reward epic rings in as gated content.  Especially when there are valor equivilants at honored.  If that was the ONLY place to get epic rings for non raiders, you might have a point, but it's not, so you really dont.  Those are free rewards for reaching exalted, not gated rewards (like honored / revered Valor gear)

Well, that's the point: they're completely free rewards equivalent to the VP ring/necklace. Reaching exalted is like being given 2500 VP to spend on other stuff. That's half a month worth of VP. It's certainly better than what you get at revered for any of the factions, which is only the ability to spend VP on other items.

Here's some better ideas than rep grinding Blizzard should add:

Solo scenarios. Why do these have to be with other people at all?
Renovating old dungeons/raids to offer other cosmetic rewards for clearing them solo (they are sort of doing this in the next patch with pets).
More daily server contests like the fishing thing. Perhaps a scavenger hunt on the server.
Better stuff in archeology like finding buried gems or trade items occasionally.
Add a gambling game or interface so people can play simple dice games with their gold or something.


-How would solo scenarios be any different from phased daily quests (which there are quite a few of in MoP)? What makes you think people will repeat them when they won't repeat regular scenarios? Do you really think scenarios cost the same to make as daily quests?
-This is a cool idea, but it is not character progression at 90. It would be unpopular compared to daily quests that do offer gear rewards for the same reason challenge modes didn't gain any steam until people finished the daily grind. Power rewards are more appealing than cosmetic rewards to most players.
-I hear mostly bitching about the existing contests. I don't think solo content that you have to schedule your day around is what most players that daily quests are targeted at are looking for
-Archaeology isn't character progression either, and it is fucking terrible. I think this is the only thing they could have done that would be less popular then the daily quests we got.
-Blizzard has been wishy-washy on whether they want to allow gambling, but I also don't see how you would consider this solo character progression.

Dailies aren't perfect but there's a pretty good reason they're in the game instead of something better.
Ingmar
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Reply #80 on: November 20, 2012, 10:24:45 PM

-How would solo scenarios be any different from phased daily quests (which there are quite a few of in MoP)? What makes you think people will repeat them when they won't repeat regular scenarios? Do you really think scenarios cost the same to make as daily quests?

LOTRO doesn't have that many Skirmishes in total but they're infinitely more fun as a repeated daily type activity than daily quests are, and they're mostly fully soloable. It blows my mind that WoW hasn't stolen them yet.

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Zetor
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Reply #81 on: November 20, 2012, 10:35:14 PM

Scenarios aren't a bad design at all, the problem is that the rewards are crap for the time invested. If they gave appropriate rep, it could be a start. The only good daily is something that happens while you're having fun and isn't mind-numbingly repetitive, see GW2 or daily BGs/dungeons. Normal daily quests can die in a fire. (I've posted this about 2-3 times in other MOP threads already, but eh :p)

Sjofn
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Reply #82 on: November 20, 2012, 11:41:57 PM

SWTOR I may sub for a month or so to play a storyline. Dunno what I'll bother spending the cartel coins on.

You should spend them on the gambling boxes, win a throne, and lord it over Ingmar.

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Lt.Dan
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Reply #83 on: November 21, 2012, 12:39:02 AM

If it weren't for signing up for twelve months for Diablo I would have cancelled already.  I hate daily quests. It's way too much like busy work.  On the other hand I'm quite happy to run dungeons with a tabatd for rep.  I run MV LFR which is a nice way to build loot but I don't play every day so capping VP is not possible.  All I ask is some way to progress that doesn't involve pecking the right buttons for a pellet.  I can't imagine I'm alone in that either.

Guess I level an alt until the nerf comes
Lantyssa
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Reply #84 on: November 21, 2012, 07:35:38 AM

Glad yall think it's a great decision. It's not, and they will change it eventually when they pull their heads out of their asses over the backlash.

What horrifies me the most is how quickly some of you are to jump on the "it's just a little rep grind, get over it" bandwagon. Rep grinds were and always will be one of the dumber things they put into these games. And guess what? In the next patch we get another one.
The only ones left playing are rapidly becoming the ones who don't care about the changes.  You're arguing with a self-selected audience, Don Quixote.

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Reply #85 on: November 21, 2012, 07:40:28 AM

The only ones left playing are rapidly becoming the ones who don't care about the changes.  You're arguing with a self-selected audience, Don Quixote.

Yeah, I suppose that's true. I tilted at windmills over the logic of the Cataclysm decisions though. To me, when the actual blue responses to a heavy portion of their gaming timesinks (rep, dailies, dungeons, or raids) is "you don't have to do that if you don't like it," I lose my mind a little.

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cmlancas
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Reply #86 on: November 21, 2012, 07:53:40 AM

I have to believe (and this is because I think they really do listen to their metrics) this is because most people don't mind dailies.  However, I'll admit the detractors are more vocal than other parts of the game.  I'll go out on a limb and say 15% of subscribers hate dailies.

But, if people hated them that much and Blizzard was wasting time making content nobody used, there's no way they'd inflict their subscribers that pain again in 5.1.

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Ironwood
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Reply #87 on: November 21, 2012, 07:55:50 AM

I'm finding the dailies to be enormously stupid.  I always did, but there were never this sheer amount of them with so little extra content.

Also, the grind for dragons and gardens and all that other shit....phew, it's a bit of a mess for me.

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Paelos
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Reply #88 on: November 21, 2012, 08:01:27 AM

They aren't wasting time. Implementing rep grinds and dailies take no time. You essentially toss a hub out there with 10 rotating quests on it, attach a faction to it with a reward table, and you're done. There are no new art assets, no new crap. What's holding up the patch now is the new scenario stuff that goes with the new faction and dailies.

So in 5.1 we get more scenarios, new factions, more dailies with rep grinds, and a brawlers guild thing only a few people can join early on.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #89 on: November 21, 2012, 08:04:20 AM

Scenario's while seemingly neat just felt like such a waste of time when I did them. The reward was just not there, in the time of one scenario I could do an entire hub of dailies which yielded much more reward in terms of valor/rep and items dropped from mobs.

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Miasma
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Reply #90 on: November 21, 2012, 08:04:48 AM

5.1 was in development before they even had feedback on the dailies, it was too late to remove the whole faction the patch revolves around.  They are putting in some things to ease the rep grind to try and help.

I want to re-iterate that I don't hate the dailies themselves, I hate trying to do them when there are ten other people around me doing the exact same thing.  If it was a group event where instead of me having to pick up 8 swords everyone in the area had to pick up 30 I would enjoy them.  It would also be nice if the available dailies were randomly set per person/group instead of the whole server.  There are three or four different sets of shado-pan dailies, they should all be active but once you or your group talks to the first npc you are randomly assigned a set.  That would at least spread people out.

Wouldn't need to do the latter if the former were implemented.
Paelos
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Reply #91 on: November 21, 2012, 08:13:11 AM

While it's true that 5.1 was in development even as Mists was released, the patch itself STILL hasn't been released. It's been two months now, and the patch isn't adding raid content. I can understand holding thing back if they involve new tiers or whatever, but this? Even why they try not to take too long, they take too long.

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SurfD
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Reply #92 on: November 22, 2012, 12:08:20 AM

I'm finding the dailies to be enormously stupid.  I always did, but there were never this sheer amount of them with so little extra content.

Also, the grind for dragons and gardens and all that other shit....phew, it's a bit of a mess for me.

Not sure if that was strictly true.  There were a LOT of dailys you could do in Cata.  You just had a 25 per day limit so you had to pick and chose which ones you wanted to do.  Then blizzard decided to release MoP with even more dailys, but remove the cap.  And once they removed the cap, everyone seemed to just turn into pellet gobbling crackheads with no self controll.  And then they bitch at Blizzard because it is some how Blizzard's fault that they cant pace themselves.......

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Zetor
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Reply #93 on: November 22, 2012, 12:16:46 AM

I did precisely zero dailies in Cata (never even unlocked the Molten Front). Ditto WOTLK (never got past 'aspirant', haven't done anything with oracles/kaluak, etc.). I did the ogri'la and skyguard dailies in BC... in fact, that was what broke me.  why so serious?

My annoyance is precisely about dailies being thought of as 'good content'. They're not - they're tedious busywork that offers little challenge and gets repetitive no matter what kind of random element is introduced (random companion, maybe the mob you need to kill chooses a special attack from a list of 4 every day, etc). I don't want to spend an hour a day on chores, tyvm. I don't really need the rep except for Black Prince, which requires you to grind a whole lot of mobs and you need it to advance the legendary questline.

I've said this a kazillion times, but the ONLY good way to do a 'daily quest' is by tying it to activities the player already finds fun, and accomodate as many playstyles as possible. Ideally a daily 'quest' would be something that you complete while travelling around the countryside hunting for nodes (if you're tradeskilling), killing enemies / winning BGs / arenas (if you're pvping), killing dungeon bosses or raid bosses (LFD, LFR), defeating some different types of pets (if you're doing pet batles), etc. Maybe even farming mobs, if some people find that fun. GW2 has the 'daily quest' problem solved pretty well: it's an account-wide mini-achievement where you have to defeat 15 different mob types, participate in 5 dynamic events, harvest 20 resources, and kill 60 enemies. All of those happen naturally while dungeoning (except for gathering), solo pve at max-level, levelling an alt, or pvp (wvw).

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Reply #94 on: November 22, 2012, 08:14:35 PM

Pretty much that.  People used to bitch about "level an alt," being the endgame, but I'd take that over grinding dailies.

Some more character transferable shit between rep/token/profession systems would be very nice too so you don't have to deal with the entirety of the gear grind suck every time an alt hits max level.  It remains to be seen what Blizzard does with the blue pvp sets as tier inflation sets in, but a Blacksmith/Mining main definitely won't help gear up a mage alt.
SurfD
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Reply #95 on: November 22, 2012, 11:22:38 PM

In cata i seem to recall that after a season or two of PvP gear, they released a new set of patterns for craftable PvP gear (same mats, higher ilevel) so fresh newbies could get in without getting completely curb stomped by people in season full season 4 or whatever gear.

I imagine same rule will apply to MoP, and probably all expantions going forward.

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Reply #96 on: November 26, 2012, 02:50:39 AM

Glad yall think it's a great decision. It's not, and they will change it eventually when they pull their heads out of their asses over the backlash.

What horrifies me the most is how quickly some of you are to jump on the "it's just a little rep grind, get over it" bandwagon. Rep grinds were and always will be one of the dumber things they put into these games. And guess what? In the next patch we get another one.

That's not content.

My 1-year sub is up at the end of December. I've still been playing a bit, but it might be time to go back to other PC games when it hits. I'll come back to WoW in 6 months or so when 80% of the current bullshit has been removed.  awesome, for real

Not quitting in anger or disgust, more a "fuck that daily-grind noise - I've got better ways to spend my time!"


edit -

I don't actually hate dailies. They're ok, but I preferred running dungeons for rep. If they allowed it both ways, I'd be reasonably happy. Well, except for the pitiful rate of some of the faction rep gains. "Mandatory" dailies can go fuck themselves and just result in me playing the game less and deciding not to renew my sub when the time comes.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 02:56:18 AM by Azazel »

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jakonovski
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Reply #97 on: November 26, 2012, 03:53:25 AM

Mmm, all this talk about rep grinds fills me with nostalgia and makes me want to buy MoP for the Xmas holidays...


Paelos
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Reply #98 on: November 26, 2012, 08:04:57 AM

I am ready for 5.1 to hit, and I'll get another 3 weeks out of it until the holidays. Then I'll probably take another month and change off until they put in something else new for 5.2 patch.

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Reply #99 on: November 26, 2012, 11:03:17 AM

I can't believe it takes this long to add so little content. Did they literally move everyone to Titan or whatever the next expansion is?

I just want 5.1 so I can go into old raids solo and get my stupid dressup sets.

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Paelos
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Reply #100 on: November 26, 2012, 11:10:35 AM

I can't believe it takes this long to add so little content. Did they literally move everyone to Titan or whatever the next expansion is?

I just want 5.1 so I can go into old raids solo and get my stupid dressup sets.

Yeah I want to do that too. I also want to do the new scenarios to see whatever the "story" is for the Sha of Why is this taking so Long?

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Draegan
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Reply #101 on: November 26, 2012, 01:09:51 PM

If you've still got DIKU cravings and are tired with WOW, RIFT's new expansion is pretty amazing imo.  I suggest giving it a shot again, so many QOL additions and you don't even have to quest grind anymore.  I went from 1-50 in about 35-40 hours.
Rokal
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Reply #102 on: November 26, 2012, 01:44:58 PM

I can't believe it takes this long to add so little content.

On the one hand, the MoP quests suggested that fleets would be arriving in "two months" and 5.1 will probably be arriving right around that mark. On the other hand, if it is taking them this long to do a small patch like 5.1, what does that say about the timeline we can expect on larger patches like 5.2, 5.3, etc.?

I remember hearing about the exalted rep changes and thinking "I wonder if I should just wait for the change before doing Klaxxi/GL exalted". I expected that change to go live two weeks later, not two months later.

If you've still got DIKU cravings and are tired with WOW, RIFT's new expansion is pretty amazing imo.  I suggest giving it a shot again, so many QOL additions and you don't even have to quest grind anymore.  I went from 1-50 in about 35-40 hours.

Let's not pretend the new Rift expansion doesn't have it's own ridiculous grind problems. They toned down on the number of story quests per zone, so you aren't just reading a bunch of filler text. That's a good change. However, to make up for this, they added "Carnage" quests which are just simple kill quests without any story component. It seems like there are 5 "kill 16 of X" carnage quests for every 1 regular quest and it is completely sapping my will to play the game not unlike the daily quests in WoW when I was doing 5+ factions.

The housing system is pretty awesome though, "gameplay-relevence" be-damned.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 01:58:41 PM by Rokal »
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Reply #103 on: November 26, 2012, 01:49:56 PM

Draegan's in FOH, correct?  I wouldn't suspect his experience is going to match the typical user experience. 

-Rasix
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #104 on: November 26, 2012, 02:00:39 PM

I can usually tell which games I won't enjoy when Draegan makes a fansite for it.

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