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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: It's not you, it's me. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 186331 times)
Draegan
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Reply #105 on: November 26, 2012, 07:45:44 PM

Draegan's in FOH, correct?  I wouldn't suspect his experience is going to match the typical user experience. 

In name only, I play the game casually right now. I actually don't play any MMO hardcore at all these days.  Not enough time.


Let's not pretend the new Rift expansion doesn't have it's own ridiculous grind problems. They toned down on the number of story quests per zone, so you aren't just reading a bunch of filler text. That's a good change. However, to make up for this, they added "Carnage" quests which are just simple kill quests without any story component. It seems like there are 5 "kill 16 of X" carnage quests for every 1 regular quest and it is completely sapping my will to play the game not unlike the daily quests in WoW when I was doing 5+ factions.

The housing system is pretty awesome though, "gameplay-relevence" be-damned.

Sure, but that's the nature of the genre: being grindy.  I just actually enjoy the ideas of hunt rifts, onslaughts and other events they put into the game.  There is also a decent amount of 5-10-20 man dungeons.  Trion really did a great job improving their formula and the classic DIKU game.

The only thing the game is lacking, imo, is a LFR system. 

I can usually tell which games I won't enjoy when Draegan makes a fansite for it.

Seems about right.
Triforcer
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Reply #106 on: December 03, 2012, 02:48:59 PM

I'm really spinning my wheels on MMOs- I can go back to LOTRO for about a week every six months (running around the Shire on beer quests is oddly relaxing), and I actually booted up Warhammer Online the other day.  Still fun in T1, but the game is down to one server.  I'd still probably play WAR somewhat if they had went F2P a couple years ago and maintained a stable population.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:51:06 PM by Triforcer »

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Paelos
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Reply #107 on: December 06, 2012, 11:04:29 AM

Glad yall think it's a great decision. It's not, and they will change it eventually when they pull their heads out of their asses over the backlash.

Shocking no one, Greg Street released comments in an interview that MMO Champ summarized about Dailies and Questing. Turns out having so many reps and grinds probably wasn't a good idea!  Ohhhhh, I see.

•Blizzard may have overdone the daily quests a little bit in pursuit of the goal of always having something for players to do when they log in. If they had to do it again, something like the Golden Lotus unlocking more and more areas would have been changed to just unlock a new area that replaces the old one, keeping the number of quests that you have to do every day the same.
•Golden Lotus and Klaxxi have enough daily quests to burn players out, while August Celestial and Shado-Pan have a more reasonable amount of quests.
•Lowering the rep requirements on some of the rewards was an attempt to make the amount of rep required before you could spend Valor Points more reasonable. If they had to do it again, it might have been nice to lower the requirements on some of the gear more so that there were some things to spend Valor Points on without grinding so many reputations.
•Historically, players would use alts as something to do after they were mostly finished with what they wanted to do on their main character. Mists of Pandaria's goal was to provide enough to do so that you never ran out of things to do, which is nice with one character, but less nice with many. Solutions to this problem are being looked at, but they want to avoid the extreme of giving every character everything or making everything account wide.
•One alternative being considered for reputation leveling is bonus reputation from your first scenario of the day.


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Simond
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Reply #108 on: December 06, 2012, 11:21:37 AM

On the bright side, it's only a couple of months and a minor patch in rather than Cataclysm's "year later and 2 milllion subs down" so they are paying attention this time around.

Now just double all rep gains from MoP dailies and then double Golden Lotus again.

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Miasma
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Reply #109 on: December 06, 2012, 11:31:13 AM

He also said he realized that having people compete for the same spawns in the dailies sucks and that people should enjoy other people around not hate it, so hopefully we will get some GW2 type stuff.  That would be a major change and I imagine it will only happen come the next expansion.
Hutch
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Reply #110 on: December 06, 2012, 01:17:30 PM

He also said he realized that having people compete for the same spawns in the dailies sucks and that people should enjoy other people around not hate it, so hopefully we will get some GW2 type stuff.  That would be a major change and I imagine it will only happen come the next expansion.

Having to compete for spawns in the dailies sucks.

But it shouldn't be news to Blizzard. We've been competing for daily-quest spawns since BC.

Some kind of geographically based auto-grouping, a la GW2, would be an awesome thing for Blizzard to steal. Can you imagine this reaction: "What? Today's Iron Paw daily is Fatty Goatsteaks? Huzzah! I can't wait to get up there!"

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Reply #111 on: December 06, 2012, 01:46:56 PM

It's odd that the only time I'm NOT excited about fatty goat is in WoW.

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Xanthippe
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Reply #112 on: December 06, 2012, 04:18:26 PM


Same reason that GW2 is Explorer-crack.  There's all kinds of places and systems for me to explore and it's not all spelled out, as long as I avoid how-to sites.

Oh that sounds interesting to me. I have avoided GW2 because I just don't care much about pvp anymore. But explorer crack sounds good.
Fabricated
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Reply #113 on: December 07, 2012, 09:45:15 PM

Ghostcrawler Interview: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3043-World-First-Pandaria-Raider-Dev-Interviews-Patch-5-1-Hotfixes-Blue-Posts-Comic

-A rough idea of how long patches will take: 2 months for a content patch and 4 months for a patch with a new raid and PvP season. This is just a rough target, as there are many factors involved in determining when players are ready and the content is ready.

Cool, a timeline!

-Raids may not see progressive nerfs this time around, as there are multiple difficulties and catch up mechanisms. It is likely that raids will not get any easier until at least Patch 5.2.

Welp. Can we just fire Ghostcrawler already because I can see where this is going. You're really fucked if you're a normal mode raidgroup that isn't on the cusp of being heroic-capable. People not in a raiding guild or not good enough for normal will likely stick with LFR and be fine, Grognards get their special snowflake content, normal raiders get to...grind fucking valor to marginally upgrade their gear and run LFR as their "nerf" mechanism if they're stuck on a cockblock boss or have to do what a lot of guilds do and sub people in/out who may not be as good or have as good of gear.

-Patch 5.2 will add some new architecture, geography, and a new story. A new raid is planned that will hopefully be similar in quality to Ulduar. There will also be more daily quests!

If this brings back tiered raiding in any conceivable way I'm out.

Also I guess here's more Ret Pallies than Rogues now...do rogues really suck now or something?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 09:48:05 PM by Fabricated »

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Hawkbit
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Reply #114 on: December 07, 2012, 10:18:19 PM

My dad started as a casual in early 2005 and got so far as to LFR in the last xpac.  He just let his sub lapse for the first time since then and was asking about Xboxes.  If he's dropping out, that's a bad sign for WoW.  I always pictured him as the exact middle ground subscriber they wanted to keep. 
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Reply #115 on: December 07, 2012, 10:25:54 PM

I'm just mad because it always comes back to what killed my release-day guild. In the end it became about satisfying a minority of the playerbase, and ended with my guild having to tell people who flat out could not get better, "welp sorry we can either not raid at all or raid without you, because the content just isn't getting done with you in the group no matter how fun you are to play with".

Now those people have the alternative of "well you can check out the content at least but only with 24 random assholes who will hate you."

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Setanta
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Reply #116 on: December 07, 2012, 10:48:35 PM

Also I guess here's more Ret Pallies than Rogues now...do rogues really suck now or something?

My "first to level" was:

Day 1 Vanilla: Hunter (Horde)/Pally alt (Alliance)
TBC: Shaman (Main)
WotLK: DK
Cata: Pally (now Horde since WotLK)
Pandaria: Rogue (youngest 'toon but had inscription)

I ditched my rogue as soon as I hit 90 but the writing was on the wall at 88. Terrible DPS and a whole heap of no fun to play. Every other 'toon saw action throughout the Core and X-pacs but rogues are just a whole heap of no fun. My Ret Pally on the other hand hits like a truck and is a whole heap of fun. Even more so than my DK (but can't solo content the way the DK can

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Reply #117 on: December 08, 2012, 08:09:32 AM

I'm just mad because it always comes back to what killed my release-day guild. In the end it became about satisfying a minority of the playerbase, and ended with my guild having to tell people who flat out could not get better, "welp sorry we can either not raid at all or raid without you, because the content just isn't getting done with you in the group no matter how fun you are to play with".

Now those people have the alternative of "well you can check out the content at least but only with 24 random assholes who will hate you."

Guild rewards killed my guild in Cata. Everyone wanted to raid after we had fun in LK, but everyone also wanted to work with their own guilds instead of with groups of guilds. And if your guild couldn't raid people just joined bigger guilds that could. It sort of reversed all the work that the smaller guilds had done to combat the Uber-guild concept of Vanilla and TBC. Nevemind that fact that the Cata raids were hard enough to cockblock them and they ended up quitting anyway.

Now we have LFR and nobody even wants to bother with the regular raids. The difficulty isn't worth going through all the fucking bullshit for most people when all they wanted was to be part of the process.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 08:11:42 AM by Paelos »

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Rokal
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Reply #118 on: December 08, 2012, 10:32:16 AM

Welp. Can we just fire Ghostcrawler already because I can see where this is going. You're really fucked if you're a normal mode raidgroup that isn't on the cusp of being heroic-capable. People not in a raiding guild or not good enough for normal will likely stick with LFR and be fine, Grognards get their special snowflake content, normal raiders get to...grind fucking valor to marginally upgrade their gear and run LFR as their "nerf" mechanism if they're stuck on a cockblock boss or have to do what a lot of guilds do and sub people in/out who may not be as good or have as good of gear.

Not necessarily, it really depends on how much content they can pump out and how fast. My guiild finished T11 and then took a ~1 month break before T12 rather than working on Heroics. Nobody was really depressed about this because T11 had been long and very satisfying. There were enough bosses that, even if you were moving slow, you were making progress.

We're currently working on Garalon in HoF (so 6/6, 2/6, 0/4). I don't really expect that we'll work on heroics much, I think we'll finish the tier on normal and then take a short break. That's more satisfying than struggling on slightly-different but harder versions of the fight that often have very specific class/spec advantages.

Tl;dr: Progressive nerfs don't matter for normal guilds if the normal mode content lasts long enough without cock-blocking. This doesn't really work if we get short and shitty raid tiers like we got in Cata, which will be more likely as the expansion moves on.
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Reply #119 on: December 09, 2012, 09:00:09 AM

They haven't fired Ghostcrawler yet?
Merusk
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Reply #120 on: December 09, 2012, 04:19:26 PM

Also I guess here's more Ret Pallies than Rogues now...do rogues really suck now or something?
I ditched my rogue as soon as I hit 90 but the writing was on the wall at 88. Terrible DPS and a whole heap of no fun to play. Every other 'toon saw action throughout the Core and X-pacs but rogues are just a whole heap of no fun. My Ret Pally on the other hand hits like a truck and is a whole heap of fun. Even more so than my DK (but can't solo content the way the DK can

My rogue is my 2nd 90.  While you still have the roguish parts of stealth and pick-pocket there's little else you gain from such a squishy melee class.  Druids and Monks wear leather too but have more survival tools and self-heals that are worth a damn.  With druids being able to stealth as well you can't really use the old "it would unbalance pvp!" crutch there.

Plus there's a shitload of AOE fights in Pandaria. Not just mob trash but bosses as well.  Rogues continue to blow at it. Your rotation is "Spam fan of knives, then your new crimson tempest AOE."  Woo.

There's parse info here that shows them being bottom to middle of the pack, while actual parses shown here say Combat is top 5. 

Still, to do ANY kind of decent dps you've got to keep all your short-duration buffs & Debuffs up.  Recoup, Rupture - which can't be ignored without fucking yourself, thanks GC! - , and Slice & Dice are all "Must maintain."   Juggling so many short-duration buffs when also juggling such a very small resource pool and worrying about positioning and survivability makes things far too complicated for a melee class.  It's a lot of bullshit to micromanage, boiling down to not fun at all.

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Fabricated
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Reply #121 on: December 09, 2012, 05:42:24 PM

They haven't fired Ghostcrawler yet?
No, and he's pretty desperate to slip his beloved Tigole/Furor original vision of WoW back in despite literally being publicly shamed for it with Cata.

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Reply #122 on: December 09, 2012, 06:25:50 PM

They haven't fired Ghostcrawler yet?
No, and he's pretty desperate to slip his beloved Tigole/Furor original vision of WoW back in despite literally being publicly shamed for it with Cata.

It's still really baffling to me that you guys lay that 'vision' at GC's feet when he's the one who implemented all the shit that fixed it in Wrath.

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Reply #123 on: December 09, 2012, 07:11:18 PM

Also I guess here's more Ret Pallies than Rogues now...do rogues really suck now or something?

I don't know how viable they are compared to other classes at 90, but I lost interest in my rogue after seeing the new talents. They're incredibly boring compared to every other class, mostly consisting of talents rogues already had but now have to decide between. It seems pretty clear that the developers weren't feeling inspired about Rogues in MoP and players have responded accordingly.
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Reply #124 on: December 09, 2012, 07:32:40 PM

They haven't fired Ghostcrawler yet?
No, and he's pretty desperate to slip his beloved Tigole/Furor original vision of WoW back in despite literally being publicly shamed for it with Cata.

It's still really baffling to me that you guys lay that 'vision' at GC's feet when he's the one who implemented all the shit that fixed it in Wrath.

He was class designer in WoTLK and despised by the classes was in charge of for simply not knowing shit about them.  Now he's lead systems designer and you can lay a whole lot more at his feet, so it happens.

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Sheepherder
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Reply #125 on: December 09, 2012, 08:49:36 PM

GC isn't in any way, shape, or form responsible or attempting to harken back to the original state of things.  He's responsible for the newer and occasionally very shitty things, like a bar full of cooldowns that don't actually cool down so much as they randomly reset.  Hope you're watching your bar: where all the important things are happening; rather than the rest of the screen.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 10:05:22 PM by Sheepherder »
SurfD
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Reply #126 on: December 09, 2012, 11:06:14 PM

Also I guess here's more Ret Pallies than Rogues now...do rogues really suck now or something?

I don't know how viable they are compared to other classes at 90, but I lost interest in my rogue after seeing the new talents. They're incredibly boring compared to every other class, mostly consisting of talents rogues already had but now have to decide between. It seems pretty clear that the developers weren't feeling inspired about Rogues in MoP and players have responded accordingly.
There is that, and the fact that they took pretty much all of the difficulty out of playing a ret paladin, makeing them one of the easiest mele dps classes to play.

Ret now goes sort of like this: 
Single target? Put up your single target seal, Judge + Crusader Strike + Templar's Veriict at 3 pts + Exorcism whenever it lights up / comes off cooldown.  Keep up Inquisition.  Use wings / GoAK as needed.  Use Procs for TV or Inquisition as best needed.

AoE? Put up AoE Seal, Judge + Hammer of Righteous + Divine Storm at 3 Pts + Exorcism (with Mass Exorcism Glyph) whenever it lights up / comes off cooldown.  Keep up Inquisition.  Use wings / GoAK as needed.  Use Procs for DS or Inquisition as best needed.

There is literally almost no thought or real rotation changes needed when switching between AoE or Single Target Dps for Ret now.  You just change seals, and swap two buttons in your rotation.  It's kind of silly.

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Pennilenko
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Reply #127 on: December 12, 2012, 04:51:18 PM

Managing inquisition can fucking die in a fire. Fuck mechanics that make you micromanage every actual second of gameplay.

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Hawkbit
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Reply #128 on: December 12, 2012, 05:53:26 PM

Managing inquisition can fucking die in a fire. Fuck mechanics that make you micromanage every actual second of gameplay.

You know, I was going to say this a few days ago and didn't.  But now that someone else has said it, I'm going to as well.  With Ret being really the only last class I enjoyed playing, this single spell is one of the reasons I don't play anymore.  I can't stand the micro involved, and without it I'd have a nearly perfect class to play. 

Oh well, cry more I guess. 
SurfD
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Reply #129 on: December 12, 2012, 11:47:22 PM

Eh, just get a mod like weak auras / power auras, toss off a quick display show your inquisition buff with a countdown timer, and use the Inquisiton glyph that doubles the duration on it.  Unless you are in a guild that requires you tweak your DPS to the max, no one is likely to notice the small dps loss from the glyph, and then Keeping inquisition up does not seem like that much of a chore.  Hell, compared to shit like managing the dots or other crazy shit half the Caster classes have to put up with, paladins have it in fucking easyland.  (I tried to bring my mage out of the backbench back in cata, and managing fire dots for combustion nearly made my head explode).

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Reply #130 on: December 12, 2012, 11:57:28 PM

Maintaining short-duration self-buffs was what drove me away from playing feral dps on my druid back in WOTLK (fuck you very much, Savage Roar) and what makes playing a brewmaster tank overly busy and annoying (100% uptime on shuffle or you're a scrub!). Ditto rogues and slice/dice.

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Reply #131 on: December 13, 2012, 12:11:02 AM

Dont try tanking on almost anything now then.  The new "active mitigatation" model they switched to turned just about every tank except DK's into cooldown watchers.  I am about ready to ditch my druid's guardian spec simply because constantly having to keep track of Savage Defense on top of every other survival cooldown is beginning to drive me nuts.  At least some of DK tanking seems to be "predictive / reactive" with trying to time your deathstrikes to occur after big damage spikes.  Paladins / Warriors / Druids now seem to be more of a "make sure to keep maximum uptime on your Block / Dodge buff or you go splat", which gets old quick.

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Reply #132 on: December 13, 2012, 06:41:47 AM

Dont try tanking on almost anything now then.  The new "active mitigatation" model they switched to turned just about every tank except DK's into cooldown watchers.  I am about ready to ditch my druid's guardian spec simply because constantly having to keep track of Savage Defense on top of every other survival cooldown is beginning to drive me nuts.  At least some of DK tanking seems to be "predictive / reactive" with trying to time your deathstrikes to occur after big damage spikes.  Paladins / Warriors / Druids now seem to be more of a "make sure to keep maximum uptime on your Block / Dodge buff or you go splat", which gets old quick.

It was enough to make me switch to fury as a long-time warrior tank. As per usual, they missed the point about tanking with mechanics. They tried to make dps matter more for threat, but tanks don't want to constantly manage their threat. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back to "active mitgation" so you're not worried about threat at all, but you have to spam all your cooldowns constantly. Great.

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Reply #133 on: December 13, 2012, 07:05:03 AM

Honestly I'm surprised I'm not seeing more discipline priests about.  I hit 90k HPS on stone guard last week while two healing.

We're ridiculously broken if you can micro your rapture procs.  I can time it correctly to get 40k mana back off of one proc.

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Reply #134 on: December 13, 2012, 12:04:26 PM

It was enough to make me switch to fury as a long-time warrior tank. As per usual, they missed the point about tanking with mechanics. They tried to make dps matter more for threat, but tanks don't want to constantly manage their threat. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back to "active mitgation" so you're not worried about threat at all, but you have to spam all your cooldowns constantly. Great.

You don't have to do anything, especially as a warrior/paladin/bear tank, unless you're doing CMs or normal+ raids. Your passive mitigation is still high enough that you can roll though most content. Hell, with warriors in particular your rotation hasn't even really changed. You're still clicking the same abilities at the same times.

-Thunderclap to start fights? Check, only now you don't have to rend first
-Shield Slam on CD? Check, only now it generates rage
-Revenge on CD? Check, only now it generates rage
-Devastate on spare GCDs? Check, still your filler
-Shield Block on CD? Check, only now you decide between a damage absorb or guaranteed blocks.

Ultimately it's not a change to what you're pressing, only what the results are.

I can't understand anyone who looked at tanking in Cata and said "this is awesome". 90% of your abilities were about generating extra threat and a pitiful amount of damage when threat no longer mattered. You were a punching bag that might as well have been afk.

This is the model the game should have had in TBC onward, where the defensive role's abilities were actually about defense. If you don't like it, for some strange reason, the good news is that you can ignore it and still do fine. If you actually want to do more than press 2-3 high-threat attacks on CD, you now have that option.
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Reply #135 on: December 13, 2012, 01:00:09 PM

Dont try tanking on almost anything now then.  The new "active mitigatation" model they switched to turned just about every tank except DK's into cooldown watchers.  I am about ready to ditch my druid's guardian spec simply because constantly having to keep track of Savage Defense on top of every other survival cooldown is beginning to drive me nuts.  At least some of DK tanking seems to be "predictive / reactive" with trying to time your deathstrikes to occur after big damage spikes.  Paladins / Warriors / Druids now seem to be more of a "make sure to keep maximum uptime on your Block / Dodge buff or you go splat", which gets old quick.

It was enough to make me switch to fury as a long-time warrior tank. As per usual, they missed the point about tanking with mechanics. They tried to make dps matter more for threat, but tanks don't want to constantly manage their threat. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back to "active mitgation" so you're not worried about threat at all, but you have to spam all your cooldowns constantly. Great.

Could always try a Jedi Guardian.  why so serious?

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Reply #136 on: December 13, 2012, 02:08:05 PM

Yep I did that at release.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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SurfD
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Reply #137 on: December 13, 2012, 11:39:08 PM

It was enough to make me switch to fury as a long-time warrior tank. As per usual, they missed the point about tanking with mechanics. They tried to make dps matter more for threat, but tanks don't want to constantly manage their threat. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back to "active mitgation" so you're not worried about threat at all, but you have to spam all your cooldowns constantly. Great.

You don't have to do anything, especially as a warrior/paladin/bear tank, unless you're doing CMs or normal+ raids. Your passive mitigation is still high enough that you can roll though most content. Hell, with warriors in particular your rotation hasn't even really changed. You're still clicking the same abilities at the same times.
Yeah, but that kind of emphasises the point you are missing.  They designed pretty much all the baseline MoP content so that any even vaguely tankish class can "tank" it relatively successfully.  A fury warrior with a shield or a feral druid in bear form is just as effective as any tank for most non-raid content, hell, if they let Demonology Locks queue as tanks, they could prob tank heroics with their demon form glyph.   But once you actually get into a raid, you must be a tank, and as a tank, you spend the entire fight micromanaging your cooldowns to make sure you have maximum effective uptime on your baseline survival cooldowns or you die (or put an inordinate amount of stress on your healers).

In Cata, as a bear, I often rolled around with a baseline dodge of around 35% active all the time, and could hit 40-45% when procs from trinkets or enchants fired off.  In MoP, I have a baseline dodge of something like 12%, which means I have to constantly manage Savage Defense or i go splat pretty quick.

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Reply #138 on: December 14, 2012, 07:09:47 AM

LFR also makes it so that only 2 tanks are needed, but 5 tanks equivilantly would be needed for dungeons. The math still sucks.

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Reply #139 on: December 14, 2012, 11:49:27 AM

Yeah, but that kind of emphasises the point you are missing.  They designed pretty much all the baseline MoP content so that any even vaguely tankish class can "tank" it relatively successfully.  A fury warrior with a shield or a feral druid in bear form is just as effective as any tank for most non-raid content, hell, if they let Demonology Locks queue as tanks, they could prob tank heroics with their demon form glyph.   But once you actually get into a raid, you must be a tank, and as a tank, you spend the entire fight micromanaging your cooldowns to make sure you have maximum effective uptime on your baseline survival cooldowns or you die (or put an inordinate amount of stress on your healers).

This isn't really any different from how any of the other roles already function though. If you don't do your rotation use your cooldowns correctly, you will do less damage/healing to the detriment of your group. It doesn't matter if you're facerolling keys for LFR or Heroic 5-mans, but it's going to cost your group if you try it in CMs or Normal+ raids. I don't instantly die on my Monk (the squishiest tank if you aren't using your active mitigation) if I let shuffle fall off or don't use a damage cooldown for a telegraphed high-damage attack, it just stresses healers further. Similarly, my group doesn't wipe if I spill coffee and stop dpsing for 20 seconds when DPS-spec, but doing so prolongs the fight which stresses healers. Why would you expect tanks to work differently in this regard?

The changes bring tanks into parity with other roles. There is now a palpable sense to gear progression for tanking, and a feeling that what you are doing personally in any given fight actually impacts the success of your group. It's a blessing for raids where tanking was a very boring and trivial role.

I get that some people don't want any added stress when tanking but it's only something you even have to deal with if you decide you want to tackle more serious content. Just like healers or DPS, more serious content requires more serious individual effort.

If you couldn't tell, I really like the tanking changes. It made a boring role fun again.
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