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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 97641 times)
Draegan
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Reply #455 on: January 30, 2013, 09:16:03 PM

Ulduar was the anomaly because 3.1 didn't introduce new 5 mans to go with the raid.

So what, you still had to grind those new 5 mans for all that new gear.  Though that grind might of been faster.  Still falls in line with my previous statement. 
Ingmar
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Reply #456 on: January 30, 2013, 09:47:58 PM

Yeah ok.

To get into 10 man Ulduar you had a few options:

1 - You could farm heroics to get drops from the last boss.
2 - You could farm Emblems of Heroism (2 per daily and 5ish(?) from bosses).
3 - Crafted Gear.

So crafted gear is a good shortcut if you are rich, have toons that can craft epics right away for you, have materials already banked.  
Or you could grind heroics forever since each piece of gear ranged from ~25 tokens to 80 or something.  So to get a belt, you needed like 5 runs alone.
Then you could shorten the grind by getting lucky with boss drops.

Yeah so that totally sounds like you could ding 80, run five heroics and you're all set for Ulduar.

Now if you're lucky enough to know people to bring you through Naxx undergeared for loots, you were pretty much resigned to running heroics to get ready for Ulduar.

Or you could, you know, do what I thought was cool idea, grind out Naxx a few times (or more) with the LFR system (guaranteed loot) and speed up the whole process.  Or if you hate raids, run more heroics.

edit:
For Ulduar 25 you needed gear from naxx 25, VoA, Emblems of Valor, and whatever 10 mans there were at the time that I can't remember.  Some website is telling me it was Malygos and KT.

Ulduar was the ONLY raid in Wrath for which that was true and they changed their system largely because of that.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Paelos
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Reply #457 on: January 30, 2013, 10:45:31 PM

Most of the time it boils down to the fact that people prefer doing five mans with friends instead of old raids. The time investment is usually less, the setup headache is less, and the loot distribution isn't as complicated.

It makes logical sense. It's also generally more fun to play with people you like, doing the newest stuff you like.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Setanta
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Reply #458 on: January 30, 2013, 11:16:23 PM

Paolos: stop making sense!

Post after post from Draegon with theories etc and yet you can sum up reality in two lines.

Enough!

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Draegan
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Reply #459 on: January 31, 2013, 05:33:01 PM

Oh sorry for the your day day setanta.

What you two dummies fail to process is that options are good. Allow players to farm old raids fir progression points or farm new 5 man's oe farm old raids. Farm whatever the fuck you want.

Also you still had to farm ic 5mans more than 5 times if you were a fresh 80 to do ic raid content.
Paelos
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Reply #460 on: January 31, 2013, 06:59:37 PM

Good options are good. Heavily biased or unbalanced rewards don't make for good options.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Draegan
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Reply #461 on: January 31, 2013, 07:17:34 PM

I never mentioned rewards. In fact I think I inferred equivalent rewards.
Azazel
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Reply #462 on: February 02, 2013, 07:22:20 PM

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 07:25:10 PM by Azazel »

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Azazel
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Reply #463 on: February 02, 2013, 07:36:34 PM

The point is that Tale is right, there is room for a game that is equally punishing and rewarding.

Thank you, please tie yourself to this stake and get the marshmallows ready.

So, basically you admit you came into this thread just for a troll to keep you entertained. Now you're martyring yourself.  awesome, for real
How's this - instead of telling you to fuck off and die, I'll suggest that instead of shitting up this forum, you open a thread in MMO-General about risk versus reward and stop shitting up this thread about how your life is/has been full of XTREME risks in between your volunteer work in disadvantaged communities and how MMOs need to be less softcock and more dodge-the-ball-peen -hammer-to-the-balls-and-epeen.

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Tale
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Reply #464 on: February 02, 2013, 10:24:19 PM

Needless personal attacks are 2 pages and 5 days ago.
Paelos
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Reply #465 on: February 02, 2013, 10:57:00 PM

It's never too late for a good sneak attack.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
Sir T
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Reply #466 on: February 03, 2013, 02:22:39 PM

Especially from behind.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Ironwood
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Reply #467 on: February 04, 2013, 03:31:48 AM


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Xanthippe
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Reply #468 on: February 05, 2013, 10:42:27 AM

Most of the time it boils down to the fact that people prefer doing five mans with friends instead of old raids. The time investment is usually less, the setup headache is less, and the loot distribution isn't as complicated.

It makes logical sense. It's also generally more fun to play with people you like, doing the newest stuff you like.

How dare you think that WoW is about this kind of fun? WoW devs know what is fun better than you do. If you aren't having fun, you aren't playing the game right. If only you'd play the game correctly, you'd have fun. Wrath was a mistake that WoW devs learned from; hence Cata and MoP.
Azazel
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Reply #469 on: February 06, 2013, 03:10:14 PM

Needless personal attacks are 2 pages and 5 days ago.

I only check this part of the board late in the week. You'll just have to live with it whenever you pull a Broughen.

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Draegan
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Reply #470 on: February 07, 2013, 08:30:58 AM

Here is what Blizzard is doing which kind of lines up with what I was saying.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811402422?page=1#2

Quote
Something that has continued to evolve over the life of the game has been end-game progression, and what’s required of your character to see what is at any one time considered the final raid. Originally it was a very linear path. You had to gear up through one raid before you could attempt the next, and the one after that, and so on. It meant that if you were even slightly behind the curve you could potentially never catch up. We began adding mechanics and options in Burning Crusade and beyond to ensure players could, with effort, have some ability to catch up. Fast forward to Cataclysm where we believe we went too far the other direction and a freshly minted 90 didn’t really have to do anything before jumping directly into Dragon Soul.

In Mists of Pandaria we want to get back to where we were in helping people catch up, but only through some effort in completing prior content. We don’t want it to be a linear A->B->C model again, because that causes a lot of undue burden on guilds attempting to catch up alts and replacements, but we also don’t want the Cataclysm model of being able to more or less skip straight to the end, invalidating everyone’s efforts who came before.

New characters coming into Mists of Pandaria will be going through Mogu’shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring, killing bosses, and gearing up before moving on. Due to that we’ll be adjusting the difficulty, as well as item drops, to make progression a bit quicker without shortcutting people directly to the Throne of Thunder raid. With the release of 5.2 enemy health and damage in the three prior raids will be reduced by 10%. We expect this to be a one-time reduction, and not a slowly increasing reduction as we’ve done previously. In addition, item drops are being greatly increased, including those from Elder Charm of Good Fortune bonus rolls. In addition, as stated in the patch notes, costs of 5.0 and 5.1 Valor items are being reduced by 50% and 25% respectively.

IN ADDITION! If you’re killing bosses in Normal and Heroic before 5.2 releases, and thus pre-nerf, you’ll actually get Feats of Strength honoring the accomplishments you made before the change – which is pretty cool. IMO.

With these changes we hope to see players able to catch when coming into the game mid-expansion, or leveling an alt, but still putting in the time and effort to get to the latest tier.
Fabricated
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Reply #471 on: February 07, 2013, 08:38:09 AM

This only looks good because there's only two tiers of raids. When they shit out another one later if they expect people to raid T14 and 15 in order to get into 16 ahahahah yeah no, even if they quadruple loot drops and make charms give guaranteed loot.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Merusk
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Reply #472 on: February 07, 2013, 08:46:06 AM

^^  This.

Only if you can get more than one drop off of a boss would the linear progression - which is what this still is - be even remotely acceptable.

Otherwise they're just going to have to accept they'll be dumping gear on Valor vendors to get people caught-up once more.  Perhaps it'll be 2 tiers behind instead of one but it'll still be the same solution as they're saying they want to avoid.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Draegan
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Reply #473 on: February 07, 2013, 09:14:05 AM

This only looks good because there's only two tiers of raids. When they shit out another one later if they expect people to raid T14 and 15 in order to get into 16 ahahahah yeah no, even if they quadruple loot drops and make charms give guaranteed loot.

It really depends how many runs you have to do.  
If I were Blizzard and when T16 comes out, I would at least take T14 out of raid lock so you can grind it all day if you wanted to, or once a night for a few days.  This allows you to move back into the 2 tier progression thingy they are writing about.  Another solution would be to add new 5 mans to T16 so the gear the drops there is the ilevel of T14 hardmode raids or slightly better than helps you kind of skip T14 and move onto T15.  Progression would like:

T14 Raids + T16 5Man >> T15 >> T16

The first stage can be done as fast as you can run the content.  So one day you can run a T14 Raid 10 times or 1 time or 0 times, and run T16 5 mans a bunch (like WOTLK) for tokens to get into T15.  Personally I'm for taking all raids off of lockouts except for the highest so you can do the same to T15 in this scenario.

Different ways of doing it, but all decent solutions.


Grinding T14 for a few weeks and then the same with 15 just to get to 16 is stupid though at a late stage of the game.  Doesn't matter how easy T14 is, if you have to take a long time to get through it, especially with an older gate mechanism like raid lockouts, it's bad.


Edit: Or you can do what Rift does an add 10 man supplemental raids (or single boss raids since everything is 10 man these days) to the previous tier of raids.  But that's more content which Blizzard doesn't do very well.  But if the world was perfect and you didn't suck at making content at a decent pace I'd do this in the above Scenario

T14 Raids (lockout)
T14 Raids (no lockout) + T15 Single Boss (lockout) >> T15 Raids (lockout)
T14 Raids (no lockout) + T15 Single Boss (no lockout) + T16 5Man >> T15 Raids (no lockout) + T16 Single Boss (lockout) >> T16 Raids

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:23:32 AM by Draegan »
Merusk
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Reply #474 on: February 07, 2013, 09:31:15 AM

They haven't taken MC out of raid lock, so.. yeah.  There's your chances of that happening.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Soulflame
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Reply #475 on: February 07, 2013, 10:31:00 AM

I've probably said this before.  I absolutely loved that my druid alt could wander into the Colosseum shortly after hitting 80.  That wasn't a mistake, it wasn't going too far, it's how the damn game should work.  I do not play WoW for a living, I play it for entertainment.  Telling me if I'm "months behind!" that I will potentially never catch up is more than enough to keep me from ever playing your game.

Because I'm not playing WoW to work.  I am paying for a service that provides me with entertainment.  The idea of trying to get into multiple T15 raids so I can do multiple T16 raids so I can finally catch up with everyone else, I do not find this fun in the slightest.  As I have also already said, current raiders aren't likely to spend time running raids they probably loathe at this point, they'll poach current raiders from other guilds.
Draegan
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Reply #476 on: February 07, 2013, 10:54:38 AM

They haven't taken MC out of raid lock, so.. yeah.  There's your chances of that happening.

It's not like I said it was likely to happen.   awesome, for real
Draegan
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Reply #477 on: February 07, 2013, 11:07:03 AM

I've probably said this before.  I absolutely loved that my druid alt could wander into the Colosseum shortly after hitting 80.  That wasn't a mistake, it wasn't going too far, it's how the damn game should work.  I do not play WoW for a living, I play it for entertainment.  Telling me if I'm "months behind!" that I will potentially never catch up is more than enough to keep me from ever playing your game.

Because I'm not playing WoW to work.  I am paying for a service that provides me with entertainment.  The idea of trying to get into multiple T15 raids so I can do multiple T16 raids so I can finally catch up with everyone else, I do not find this fun in the slightest.  As I have also already said, current raiders aren't likely to spend time running raids they probably loathe at this point, they'll poach current raiders from other guilds.

When you create a new character how far are you behind level 90?  I honestly don't know how long it takes these days.  I know you can start a DK at 55.  I know you can get a SoR for a free 80(?), I know you can get autoleveled by that friendship account link program (I forget the name). If you ignore all those gimmicks, how long does a fresh account take to hit max level?  How long does it take for an alt with and without heirloom gear take including a guild bonus?

What I'm getting at, there is a leveling process you can't skip.  I think the same methodology should be applied to gear acquisition.  

Once you hit level 90 and the game is at it's third tier of raids, you shouldn't have to play months to get to the point.  You should not be forced to slog through weeks of raiding one or two dungeons.  That process should be accelerated.  Using LFR to farm instances for a few days.  Then use it again for the next tier etc.  Make raid tokens account bound instead of character bound so that useless tokens on your main can be used for your alt.  Keep raid items account transferable as long as you don't equip them on a character.  I.e. loot a BOE druid item on your warrior and use it for a druid alt.  

But I like progressive structures in games and hate completely invalidating current expansion content.  I've said this before, I think you should be able to solo MC at level 90 for current lower tier raids (i.e. It's T16 and you can solo MC for T14 tokens).

edit:
I haven't played WOW since WOTLK and then it was only at the beginning and a small bit at the end.  So my perspective has blurred a bit.  You might be filtering my process around the old way of raiding where you raided A once a week for a month or two, then B etc.  That might confuse things.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:10:02 AM by Draegan »
apocrypha
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Reply #478 on: February 07, 2013, 12:59:14 PM

Quote
we also don’t want the Cataclysm model of being able to more or less skip straight to the end, invalidating everyone’s efforts who came before.

Hahaha. In what way does it "invalidate" someone's "efforts" if you stop new players and alts from joining current raids until they've done the old stuff?

What that means is the usual hardcore fuckheads are shitting up the forums as ever and Blizzard are incapable of calling them out.

Glad I kicked this particular habit

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Setanta
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Reply #479 on: February 07, 2013, 01:44:47 PM

edit:
I haven't played WOW since WOTLK and then it was only at the beginning and a small bit at the end.  So my perspective has blurred a bit is absolutely pointless.

I fixed this for you.

Come back to us when you've actually experienced the last 3 years.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #480 on: February 07, 2013, 01:54:18 PM

Quote
we also don’t want the Cataclysm model of being able to more or less skip straight to the end, invalidating everyone’s efforts who came before.

Hahaha. In what way does it "invalidate" someone's "efforts" if you stop new players and alts from joining current raids until they've done the old stuff?

What that means is the usual hardcore fuckheads are shitting up the forums as ever and Blizzard are incapable of calling them out.

Glad I kicked this particular habit

The thing is, it's less about invalidating other players efforts as it is the developers efforts. "What's the point of all the man hours creating this content if we let people skip it? They should be playing the game we built!"

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Rokal
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Reply #481 on: February 07, 2013, 02:03:34 PM

This only looks good because there's only two tiers of raids. When they shit out another one later if they expect people to raid T14 and 15 in order to get into 16 ahahahah yeah no, even if they quadruple loot drops and make charms give guaranteed loot.

T16 will include 5-mans that either drop T14 or T15 equivalent gear. I'd bet money on it.
Lantyssa
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Reply #482 on: February 07, 2013, 02:18:10 PM

The thing is, it's less about invalidating other players efforts as it is the developers efforts. "What's the point of all the man hours creating this content if we let people skip it? They should be playing the game we built!"
MUDflation is a bitch.  Maybe they should change their model if they don't like it.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Sheepherder
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Reply #483 on: February 07, 2013, 02:46:06 PM

Quote
Something that has continued to evolve over the life of the game has been end-game progression, and what’s required of your character to see what is at any one time considered the final raid. Originally it was a very linear path. You had to gear up through one raid before you could attempt the next, and the one after that, and so on. It meant that if you were even slightly behind the curve you could potentially never catch up. We began adding mechanics and options in Burning Crusade and beyond to ensure players could, with effort, have some ability to catch up. Fast forward to Cataclysm where we believe we went too far the other direction and a freshly minted 90 didn’t really have to do anything before jumping directly into Dragon Soul.

Did we play the same Cataclysm?  Because I distinctly recall grinding four tiers of dungeons to get into DS with my alts.
Fabricated
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Reply #484 on: February 07, 2013, 03:16:02 PM

This only looks good because there's only two tiers of raids. When they shit out another one later if they expect people to raid T14 and 15 in order to get into 16 ahahahah yeah no, even if they quadruple loot drops and make charms give guaranteed loot.

T16 will include 5-mans that either drop T14 or T15 equivalent gear. I'd bet money on it.
There's gonna be some mighty, mighty bitching then.

Well, if they make it drop T14 so you have to still grind T15 LFR to go directly into T16 LFR/Normal I guess the special snowflakes would be alright with that but noooooo way would I ever resub again for it. That actually sounds like the kind of stupid shit Blizzard would do now.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Merusk
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Reply #485 on: February 07, 2013, 04:36:37 PM

Quote
Something that has continued to evolve over the life of the game has been end-game progression, and what’s required of your character to see what is at any one time considered the final raid. Originally it was a very linear path. You had to gear up through one raid before you could attempt the next, and the one after that, and so on. It meant that if you were even slightly behind the curve you could potentially never catch up. We began adding mechanics and options in Burning Crusade and beyond to ensure players could, with effort, have some ability to catch up. Fast forward to Cataclysm where we believe we went too far the other direction and a freshly minted 90 didn’t really have to do anything before jumping directly into Dragon Soul.

Did we play the same Cataclysm?  Because I distinctly recall grinding four tiers of dungeons to get into DS with my alts.

For me it was only 3 tiers, and not so much of a grind.

 I came back with a scroll of rezz, got my shaman to 85 and had decent enough gear that one normal dungeon + the rep I had from quests gave me the gearscore for Heroics.   After about 3-4 normal Heroics I had enough VP & drops to buy my way into the Eternity dungeons.   Those dropped loot and VP enough that I think it only took me 2-3 days to get in to DS.    I was able to skip the bullshit of Troll dungeons entirely.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Tannhauser
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Reply #486 on: February 07, 2013, 08:44:36 PM

The nerfing of MoP is ahead of schedule it seems.
Sheepherder
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Reply #487 on: February 07, 2013, 08:57:31 PM

For me it was only 3 tiers, and not so much of a grind.

 I came back with a scroll of rezz, got my shaman to 85 and had decent enough gear that one normal dungeon + the rep I had from quests gave me the gearscore for Heroics.   After about 3-4 normal Heroics I had enough VP & drops to buy my way into the Eternity dungeons.   Those dropped loot and VP enough that I think it only took me 2-3 days to get in to DS.    I was able to skip the bullshit of Troll dungeons entirely.

I think you probably have a serious case of rose coloured glasses, because 1000 VP would buy you a wand or totem/idol/libram slot item.
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Reply #488 on: February 07, 2013, 09:35:17 PM

He said "...and drops".

And it really wasn't hard to get into the 3 late-addition dungeons.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Draegan
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Reply #489 on: February 07, 2013, 09:37:53 PM

edit:
I haven't played WOW since WOTLK and then it was only at the beginning and a small bit at the end.  So my perspective has blurred a bit is absolutely pointless.

I fixed this for you.

Come back to us when you've actually experienced the last 3 years.

Ok little girl, adults are talking, maybe you can come back when you learn not to be a brat.
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