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Author Topic: It's not you, it's me.  (Read 186315 times)
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #420 on: January 30, 2013, 08:20:50 AM

There's a difference between gating and just dying.

If you don't belong in a raid, you die. Don't decide for me on the front end that I have to have X amount of gear. What if other people have the gear? What if I have the gear and want to bring a friend in? What if I have an alt and we're rolling them through? The gating gets in the way of that.

You can put in progression without putting in gates. In my mind, gates are the artificial barriers to content. You must be level x to get in this, you must have ilvl y to join, you must do this attunement, you must have completed this quest.

As far as you argument that gates exist so you don't do things retardedly, I counter that the gates exist to restrict your flow as a monetary device and nothing more. The gates exist to keep you subbed. In a F2P model, the gates would be money paid to enter something, instead of time.

So what you're saying is you should be able to select any level you want in single players games? Or in games like Skyrim, just skip to the end boss if you want?  Needless time sinks are what you are talking about but not all timesinks are needless, because the journey can be fun too, if done right.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Paelos
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Reply #421 on: January 30, 2013, 08:40:27 AM

Single player games have the ability to select whatever difficulty you like in many of them. They don't have to offer extra rewards for this. Go play Dragon Age, there are difficulties. Go play Civ 5, or Mass Effect, or Fortix, or Total War, or whatever. People want to be challenged in many cases, and they have that option. Some people don't and they have that option. In the end, the game doesn't lock off them playing because they choose how hard they want it to be.

You are making a large logical leap between gating and ignoring all gameplay. You can make things happen in logical flow, and have people access content without necessarily being able to defeat. Some players can use their "skills" to defeat things faster than others, and at lower thresholds. There's not a compelling reason to decide for them on the front end that they can't walk in the door.

That being said, single player story games are different than WoW. That doesn't mean they are immune from stupid gates though. If you ever see a point on a map that says (must be level X) that's bad design in my mind. Also, SP games have a beginning, a middle, and an ending in many cases. You start, you play, you win, you stop playing. WoW lacks a true ending other than abject frustration or boredom.

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Draegan
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Reply #422 on: January 30, 2013, 09:09:26 AM

There's a difference between gating and just dying.

If you don't belong in a raid, you die. Don't decide for me on the front end that I have to have X amount of gear. What if other people have the gear? What if I have the gear and want to bring a friend in? What if I have an alt and we're rolling them through? The gating gets in the way of that.

You can put in progression without putting in gates. In my mind, gates are the artificial barriers to content. You must be level x to get in this, you must have ilvl y to join, you must do this attunement, you must have completed this quest.

As far as you argument that gates exist so you don't do things retardedly, I counter that the gates exist to restrict your flow as a monetary device and nothing more. The gates exist to keep you subbed. In a F2P model, the gates would be money paid to enter something, instead of time.

Belonging in a raid: That's fine with me.  Does WOW prevent a person in green gear from entering a raid with a guild these days?  I know it's necessary for the LFR system but it shouldn't be in place for everything else.  I know it didn't used to be.  Keying is a mechanism that has it's place.  It allows developers to create a flow of content for the playerbase but as the content ages it just becomes fucking annoying.  The TBC keying structure was really retarded but looking back on it, I can see why devs did it.  They thought they were making a cool mystical story that players had to figure out.  They wanted players to put puzzles together.  It works really well if you're playing with the same 20-30 people and you work your way through. 

It sucks ass for alts and newer players and really really sucks as content ages.  So in reality it's awful unless you create some Account Bound or Guild Bound keying system and then it's just a bandaid.

Gates: How do you make a typical MMORPG that has levels and gear without certain gating mechanism?  They are either hard barriers (YOU CAN'T ENTER UNTIL LEVEL 90) or soft barriers (Hey dick, you're level 5 and this level 90 trash mob just one shot you, get out).  Hard barriers are mostly stupid if they are in strictly as a pacing mechanism, soft barriers are fine for me. 

If we're talking about raids and progression.  I like the idea of players, new to the game, having to go through each tier of raid for that expansion to gear up.  I hated the old mechanism of running heroics for tokens that allowed you to skip raids.  I would of preferred a LFR system like now that helped you get into older stuff.

However, I also think they should be able to skip it if they know people that are willing to drag them along the latest shit as an undergeared person.  In the context of WOW, every time there is a new tier or raids, the old raids should come off of timers and have a zone buff that makes them easier and faster to complete.  So if you want, you can grind the shit out of the old ones to catch up.

Raid timers as a whole are stupid anyway.

Soulflame
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Reply #423 on: January 30, 2013, 11:58:13 AM

Running old raids to gear for new raids is flat out unworkable.  It's why there were content resets in Wrath.

People do not want to run old hat raids to gear up a new player.  Instead, they'll recruit from raiders at the current level, which has its own fun set of problems.
Paelos
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Reply #424 on: January 30, 2013, 12:13:07 PM

Running old raids to gear for new raids is flat out unworkable.  It's why there were content resets in Wrath.

People do not want to run old hat raids to gear up a new player.  Instead, they'll recruit from raiders at the current level, which has its own fun set of problems.

Exactly. In the tiered style of raiding, somebody walking away with all the gear is a total diaster, because you can't replace them. People feel like they have to hang around and farm shit forever because if they don't you will be screwed in the next tier, or you are cockblocked on the current tier, and a percentage of the raid is behind.

It creates unnecessary dissention in the ranks because you have to keep playing shit you were done with. In the old model if you lost a Karazhan player, or you had to change out for an alt, you had to coerce 4 people to do Black Morass again. And again. And again!

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Ingmar
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Reply #425 on: January 30, 2013, 12:15:45 PM

And let's not forget that strict progression utterly kills alts, and alt-friendly progression is a very powerful motivator for keeping people subscribed.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Simond
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Reply #426 on: January 30, 2013, 12:36:05 PM

The next expansion will be brimming over with alt-friendliness but they'll then turn around and repeat some mistakes from WotLK (as MoP seems to be doing vis a vis TBC). The one after that will refocus on guilds and raiding, but totally misjudge difficulty levels.

And so on.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Merusk
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Reply #427 on: January 30, 2013, 12:39:56 PM

And let's not forget that strict progression utterly kills alts, and alt-friendly progression is a very powerful motivator for keeping people subscribed.

Yep, which is what has killed my desire to play MoP anymore.  (in addition to the rep grinds)

I had 9 85s in Cata.  Once you got past a lot of the bullshit and they down-tuned heroics it was a pretty painless process.  Sure the dungeons still weren't fun but the raids were.   Gearing up all 9 alts to a level I was happy with was easily done.

Here, however, gearing my 1st alt, a Rogue, has broken me.  Amassing VP is a bit of a pain in the ass because queues take so long.  I can't run a bunch of raids because my GS is still too low for the 2nd tier after 10 weeks of being level 90.  Fuck it, I'm done trying there.  I certainly have no interest in doing the other 7 alts at this pace so I'm done with the game.

That's not good.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Paelos
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Reply #428 on: January 30, 2013, 12:55:37 PM

The next expansion will be brimming over with alt-friendliness but they'll then turn around and repeat some mistakes from WotLK (as MoP seems to be doing vis a vis TBC). The one after that will refocus on guilds and raiding, but totally misjudge difficulty levels.

And so on.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Just so we're clear, what was your idea of mistakes in Wrath?

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #429 on: January 30, 2013, 01:00:44 PM

Argent tournement.
Bad guy acting like a cartoon villain.
Not actually beating Arthas.
Splitting raids into 10/25 and not just sticking with one goddamn size which has complicated everything since.

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Simond
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Reply #430 on: January 30, 2013, 01:29:51 PM

+over a year of Icecrown.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Ingmar
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Reply #431 on: January 30, 2013, 01:31:12 PM

That's not a design mistake, that's just slow execution and pretty much completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Soulflame
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Reply #432 on: January 30, 2013, 01:41:29 PM

10/25 man raids + heroic versions of the raids was a design mistake they later corrected.  Sort of.

Even so, during Colosseum, I was raiding 10 mans, 25 mans, then 10 man heroics, with occasional hilarious forays into 25 man heroics.
Paelos
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Reply #433 on: January 30, 2013, 01:52:01 PM

I think the move to 10 mans was awesome. The only issue I had with Blizzard was not letting people do both anymore if they wanted. That's what killed 25 man raiding.

I also did the Argent Tournament raid, and we liked it for the most part (Champions obviously causing major issues with CC). I didn't really care for Ulduar, which seems to be held as the OMG BEST EVAH for a lot of folks, but I did like the final boss a lot.

Not actually killing Arthas was pretty clownshoes, I agree there. As far as him showing up everywhere like a cartoon, I thought that sort of tied the zones together. Here's the lich king, he's pissed and talking to you. I liked that interaction. Especially in the Fjord region with the Vykrul.

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Rendakor
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Reply #434 on: January 30, 2013, 01:54:54 PM

What do you guys mean when you say not killing Arthas?

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Soulflame
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Reply #435 on: January 30, 2013, 01:59:56 PM

To me, it seemed that Arthas took the Evil Overlord list as a how-to manual.  Plus, it seemed a really silly way to end the whole thing, with a guy we'll probably be beating up in two or three expansions jamming Diablo's soul gem into Arthas' helm onto his head.

I really enjoyed Ulduar, especially playing with our little 10 man that worked on hardmodes.  We never did make much of a dent on the extra boss.

What they mean by "not killing Arthas" is the fight was to get Arthas down to 5% or 10% (I forget which) at which point he insta-kills the entire raid, and some alliance guy comes strolling out and finishes Arthas with the power of love or some nonsense.

Wait.  Arthas' dad was involved too.  All the souls in Frostmourne were freed after Tirion destroys Frostmourne with Ashbringer, the raid is ressed, and Arthas is immobilized by them while you beat him to death.

It just showcased that the players actually never became strong enough to overcome Arthas, because he was just that much of an ultimate badass.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:04:38 PM by Soulflame »
Rendakor
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Reply #436 on: January 30, 2013, 02:02:35 PM

That's not actually what happens. You get Arthas to 10%, he kills the raid, Tirion breaks out of the ice and smashes Frostmourne, Terenas Menethil rezzes the raid and then you kill him. If you go afk for an hour Tirion will eventually auto attack Arthas to death, but that's not how it usually goes.

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Ingmar
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Reply #437 on: January 30, 2013, 02:03:01 PM

You do actually kill Arthas yourself, but Tirion has to save you first. The objection is it still takes agency out of the hands of the players and puts it in the hand of an NPC.

But - again, this is not a design issue. This is a narrative construction problem, and irrelevant to the topic at hand which is all about design.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Soulflame
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Reply #438 on: January 30, 2013, 02:15:50 PM

Vehicles.
Paelos
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Reply #439 on: January 30, 2013, 02:20:02 PM

That's valid. There were WAAAAAAYYYY too many vehicle quests, and I remember that being bitched about, especially in that dragon-dungeon-which-must-not-be-named.

Most of the other things I remember were people bitching about "Welfare Epics" which imo was nonsense, and the TBC semi-hardcore being upset their stuff wasn't slightly better anymore. Also, people complained at the end of the cycle about facerolling dungeons, which I loved doing. AE to victory!

Overall, though I couldn't find a ton to hate about Wrath. It's why I pointed to it as the place they should start when designing an expansion.

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Soulflame
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Reply #440 on: January 30, 2013, 02:22:54 PM

Facerolling to victory and welfare epics were my favorite part about Wrath, particularly when it came to gearing alts.
Paelos
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Reply #441 on: January 30, 2013, 02:30:01 PM

The world pvp thing with the attached pve raids also didn't really work in my mind. Often it would crash the server for odd reasons. They finally had to scrap that idea.

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Sjofn
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Reply #442 on: January 30, 2013, 02:44:48 PM

WotLK was my favorite expansion because it was essentially like they sat down and said, "Let's design an expansion for Slap in the Face."

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Draegan
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Reply #443 on: January 30, 2013, 03:19:12 PM

Looks like my post got ated my the interwebs:

Essentially what I was saying before is that WOW should bring back raid progression.  Now you guys were derping before when i said this and really did read my post, but I'll elaborate.

In WOTLK you had run run heroics endlessly until you had enough tokens to buy whatever tier was current that brought you up to the newest raid was.  That was boring as shit.  If I were Blizzard I would make people gear through raids to get to the current raid tier, but I would make things easy.

For example,  say there are two tiers of raids.  Previously you had to run heroics/rep/crafting to gear up for T1 raids.  Then when T2 was released they would add more gear for those points and you would ignore T1 raids.  What I would do is once T2 is released, you take T1 off raid lockouts and allow players to farm it endlessly.  Put in a zone wide buff for players and make that shit really quick.  So now instead of running LFD endless for heroics to gear up, you now run Heroics for a short while, then T1 for a while then finally you're ready. 

Then if there are four tiers of raids,  You would have to LFD dungeons then LFR T1, T2 and T3.  The older the Tier, the easier it becomes until it's cake walk like WOTLK heroics were at the very end.  By that time you could even short man the thing easily.  Anyway, as the tiers get older the buff the zone gets that makes players hit harder all increase drop rates.  So if if it took you 6 runs to gear up T1 stuff for T2 at one point, by the end it may only take 2 full runs all via the LFR system.  And you could probably get it done in a single afternoon.

I just hated the system of grinding shitty 5 man dungeons over and over.  I would of enjoyed different scenery and a sense of progression.
Ingmar
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Reply #444 on: January 30, 2013, 03:24:31 PM

In WOTLK you had run run heroics endlessly until you had enough tokens to buy whatever tier was current that brought you up to the newest raid was.  That was boring as shit. 

That probably would have been boring as shit, were it true. It wasn't, though, you could gear up for the new raids by running the new heroics they added with the raid tiers (minus Ulduar, but when Ulduar was new, running Naxx was not out of fashion yet) and using the drops that came from them, which was much faster than tokens.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Draegan
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Reply #445 on: January 30, 2013, 03:58:14 PM

That's fine, more options is good.  You either run new 5 mans endless, or you run older raids endlessly.  I mean you're just agreeing with me because you acknowledge that people were running Naxx as well to gear up.  I'm attempting to make it even easier by pulling Naxx off the lockout so you can run it like heroics. 

Essentially you boil it down to allowing players to farm and run older raids from the current expansion for better and faster rewards than older heroics from the current expansion.  Then with new raid tiers, add new 5 mans that drop/reward the same shit from the previous old tier so you can do whatever the fuck you want.  Raids would probably be better because there are more bosses.

Hell toss in rewards equivalent to old current expansion heroics in old previous expansion raids.  MOP just come out and don't want to farm heroics for tokens?  Go farm Molten Core or some shit.  Options!
Ingmar
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Reply #446 on: January 30, 2013, 04:18:21 PM

I'm not agreeing with you, because there's no "endlessly" involved in the way it worked in Wrath. You could get geared up enough with a handful of runs, I did it several times.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Draegan
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Reply #447 on: January 30, 2013, 04:31:16 PM

Ah so you could ding level 80 in WOTLK and run heroics 5 times and you were good to run the latest raid?
Sjofn
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Reply #448 on: January 30, 2013, 04:42:20 PM

Pretty much.

(Assuming the RNG didn't fuck you in the ass, anyway.)

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Ingmar
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Reply #449 on: January 30, 2013, 04:45:43 PM

Ah so you could ding level 80 in WOTLK and run heroics 5 times and you were good to run the latest raid?

The 10 man version, anyway. I don't pretend to know or care what was involved in going to 25s.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Rokal
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Reply #450 on: January 30, 2013, 04:46:18 PM

In WOTLK you had run run heroics endlessly until you had enough tokens to buy whatever tier was current that brought you up to the newest raid was.  That was boring as shit.  If I were Blizzard I would make people gear through raids to get to the current raid tier, but I would make things easy.

That's pretty much what we're going to get. Easy raids via LFR with increased drop rates to get to the next tier faster. Probably some catch-up gear mixed in too.

By the time the raid tier after Thunderking comes out, "Attack on Existing Art-Assets Orgimmar", we'll probably have new catch-up 5-mans again.
Draegan
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Reply #451 on: January 30, 2013, 04:57:43 PM

Yeah ok.

To get into 10 man Ulduar you had a few options:

1 - You could farm heroics to get drops from the last boss.
2 - You could farm Emblems of Heroism (2 per daily and 5ish(?) from bosses).
3 - Crafted Gear.

So crafted gear is a good shortcut if you are rich, have toons that can craft epics right away for you, have materials already banked.  
Or you could grind heroics forever since each piece of gear ranged from ~25 tokens to 80 or something.  So to get a belt, you needed like 5 runs alone.
Then you could shorten the grind by getting lucky with boss drops.

Yeah so that totally sounds like you could ding 80, run five heroics and you're all set for Ulduar.

Now if you're lucky enough to know people to bring you through Naxx undergeared for loots, you were pretty much resigned to running heroics to get ready for Ulduar.

Or you could, you know, do what I thought was cool idea, grind out Naxx a few times (or more) with the LFR system (guaranteed loot) and speed up the whole process.  Or if you hate raids, run more heroics.

edit:
For Ulduar 25 you needed gear from naxx 25, VoA, Emblems of Valor, and whatever 10 mans there were at the time that I can't remember.  Some website is telling me it was Malygos and KT.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:01:04 PM by Draegan »
Draegan
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Reply #452 on: January 30, 2013, 05:01:54 PM

In WOTLK you had run run heroics endlessly until you had enough tokens to buy whatever tier was current that brought you up to the newest raid was.  That was boring as shit.  If I were Blizzard I would make people gear through raids to get to the current raid tier, but I would make things easy.

That's pretty much what we're going to get. Easy raids via LFR with increased drop rates to get to the next tier faster. Probably some catch-up gear mixed in too.

By the time the raid tier after Thunderking comes out, "Attack on Existing Art-Assets Orgimmar", we'll probably have new catch-up 5-mans again.

Sounds good but it would of been nice if raids were taken out of timers as they get older.
Rendakor
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Reply #453 on: January 30, 2013, 05:38:29 PM

Ulduar was the anomaly because 3.1 didn't introduce new 5 mans to go with the raid.

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Rokal
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Reply #454 on: January 30, 2013, 05:44:19 PM

Ulduar was the anomaly because 3.1 didn't introduce new 5 mans to go with the raid.

I wouldn't say it's the anomaly. No expansion pack has had new 5-mans to coincide with the second raid tier. Cata would have been the first expansion to do it with ZG/ZA remakes, but they threw those into their own patch months ahead of Firelands instead. They weren't exactly "new" or "finished" either.
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