NFL 2012

[Malakili]

Hmm, I didn't realize that was reviewable only in the endzone.  Interesting.

[Cyrrex]

Having now seen the play in full HD on a larger screen, I have to admit that it appears more like Jennings should have been awarded the catch.  That said, I can still see why the rules themselves are causing an issue here.

The real problem is that, having now also seen the entire fourth quarter....Oh My God.  That was beyond farcical, and so painful to watch.  An utter disaster of a quarter for that crew, holy shit.  I understand better now why people are so furious about the call at the end - it was the straw that broke the camel's back.  So many flags, so many bad calls.  I don't think it necessarily favored either side in total, but what an utter disaster.  

[Malakili]

The real problem is that, having now also seen the entire fourth quarter....Oh My God.  That was beyond farcical, and so painful to watch.  An utter disaster of a quarter for that crew, holy shit.  I understand better now why people are so furious about the call at the end - it was the straw that broke the camel's back.  So many flags, so many bad calls.  I don't think it necessarily favored either side in total, but what an utter disaster.  

Yeah, this is also really important.  The whole 4th Quarter was a mess and certainly contributed to the reaction at the end.

[HaemishM]

This is the part that pisses me off.

It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

Jennings CLEARLY gained control first.

[Cyrrex]

I wonder if their interpretation has something to do with the time of when the go to the ground (because we know how important that part of it is for the definition of a catch).  Does Tate have a better handle on it by the time they hit the ground, and is that where the "simultaneous" part of the rule begins to apply?

[sickrubik]

The interpretation is clearly "we don't want to give the real refs any more power".

[Paelos]

They are the only major pro league (MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL) in America that still insists they treat their refs like part-time talent. The fact they aren't willing to make them full time employees showed how little they value their service. Now, we all know just how important that service and experience is in maintaining the professionalism on the field. College football is more fun to watch right now than the NFL.

[Malakili]

They are the only major pro league (MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL) in America that still insists they treat their refs like part-time talent. The fact they aren't willing to make them full time employees showed how little they value their service. Now, we all know just how important that service and experience is in maintaining the professionalism on the field. College football is more fun to watch right now than the NFL.

Indeed.  Just pay them.  Hell, if full time is possible do it.  I'll be the first to admit I didn't think the replacement refs were going to be this bad.  I thought they'd be a bit bad, but not THIS consistently bad.  I'm also getting the impression they are getting worse, not better, as time goes on in part due to the fact that the players and coaches don't respect them, they seem intimidated by the crowds, etc.

[Bunk]

This is the part that pisses me off.

It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

Jennings CLEARLY gained control first.

Upon further review, I agree with you. Tate had one hand on the ball only as he fell and there's no way he would have maintained possession if it weren't for Jennings holding the ball there for him. If you only look at it from when the hit the ground on, then it appears that they both have possession - which I believe is what the ref did.

So yea, shitty call.

[HaemishM]

They are the only major pro league (MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL) in America that still insists they treat their refs like part-time talent. The fact they aren't willing to make them full time employees showed how little they value their service. Now, we all know just how important that service and experience is in maintaining the professionalism on the field. College football is more fun to watch right now than the NFL.

Apparently, part of the owners proposal to the refs is to make some of them full-time... but of course, the ones who aren't have to give up their pensions.

[Ingmar]

This is the part that pisses me off.

It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

Jennings CLEARLY gained control first.

Yeah this is the bit that makes it seem open-and-shut to me.

[sickrubik]

SportsCenter was on when I went home for lunch. They were talking about it, of course.... They showed a bunch of different angles including one from outside the redzone looking straight in. You had a great shot of both Jennings and Tate's arms. Tate has an arm up in there, but does not appear to have a hand on the ball. Jennings had gotten both hands on the ball first and was drawing it into his chest. As they come down, Tate's right hand comes up and grabs Jennings on the wrist. Not on the ball. As his feet hit the ground, Jennings has control of the ball. As they fall into a clump, Tate continues to fight for the ball, but Jennings's has it far best the time that normally would be called legally a reception/interception.

[Nebu]

I can't wait to see what the Onion has to say about this. 

[murdoc]

http://www.replacementgoogle.com/

[Nebu]

You guys see Huff Po this afternoon?  The headline reads:  N-F-aiL

I also beat the headline... the start of the story.

You have to boycott the NFL, now.

UPDATE:  Steve Young Suffers Concussion Attempting To Explain Final Call In Packers, Seahawks Game

I love the Onion.

[Sky]

Been slacking on watching games this year. Caught the end of the Ravens game and there were some crappy calls.

Then I saw the second half of the Packers game last night and what the fuck is going on? One nice thing about the big tv, we get a nice clear view of things. Two hands, pulled into chest, maintains possession to the ground, knee down. Interception. Clear as day.

Add that in with the complete clown show of calls and yeah, I'm ok with not watching the NFL until they get their shit together. Make the guys full time NFL employees, it's not like the NFL is hurting for dough. One star player could pay all the refs in the league a sweet salary.

[Nebu]

The refs want 30 million over 7 years.  The NFL makes 9.5 billion PER YEAR.

I think the holdout is to show that the owners are 'tough negotiators'. 

[Megrim]

SportsCenter was on when I went home for lunch. They were talking about it, of course.... They showed a bunch of different angles including one from outside the redzone looking straight in. You had a great shot of both Jennings and Tate's arms. Tate has an arm up in there, but does not appear to have a hand on the ball. Jennings had gotten both hands on the ball first and was drawing it into his chest. As they come down, Tate's right hand comes up and grabs Jennings on the wrist. Not on the ball. As his feet hit the ground, Jennings has control of the ball. As they fall into a clump, Tate continues to fight for the ball, but Jennings's has it far best the time that normally would be called legally a reception/interception.

Ok cool, so with more clarity it becomes apparent.

So, my next question is, why didn't the defender just swat the ball down, instead of risking a catch?

[HaemishM]

So, my next question is, why didn't the defender just swat the ball down, instead of risking a catch?

'Cos he's a rookie. Rookie mistake.

[Ingmar]

Yep. There's a glory/showoff thing involved there too.

[murdoc]

So, my next question is, why didn't the defender just swat the ball down, instead of risking a catch?

You mean like they did the Tenn/Det game? 

[MuffinMan]

Uh oh.

[ghost]

Apparently some of the current NFL replacement refs weren't even good enough for the Lingerie League....

 

[WayAbvPar]

I wonder who he was rooting for? He is probably a Bears fan, and the Pack is a bitter rival. Plus Seattle is right in his wheelhouse, politically  

[caladein]

So, my next question is, why didn't the defender just swat the ball down, instead of risking a catch?

This comes up with Hail Mary plays often enough, and the main thing is that it's probably pretty hard to turn off that part of your brain even if you are getting clear instructions to do so from the coaching staff. And they don't always give it in situations they should from my understanding.

[TheWalrus]

 I don't know what game you guys were watching. That was clearly a touchdown. If it hadn't been a legitimate touchdown, the NFL has clear countermeasures that prevent that from being ruled one.

[Cyrrex]

 

Not sure if serious?

[Trippy]

Not. it's a meme. Google "Todd Akin", if you dare (don't blame me if your IQ drops).

[ghost]

Bill Plaschke reams Roger Goodell.

Want to know my favorite statistic of Week 3? Sixteen of 20 coach's challenges resulted in overturned calls, meaning officials made the wrong decision on 80 percent of some of the biggest plays. Think about that.
Want to know my second-favorite statistic? When you crunch the numbers, if the NFL gave the locked-out referees everything they wanted, it would cost about $100,000 extra per team per season. That equals about four games' pay for one of the team's lowest-paid players. The owners are watching their sport burn because they won't improve the officials' compensation by about one-fourth the amount they would pay a backup guard? Think about that.
OK, real quick, I've got a third-favorite statistic from last weekend. There were 13 penalty first downs in the game between the Patriots and the Ravens, which is only the most in the history of the NFL.

 

[Paelos]

It's not just about the money. If that was the issue, they would have already made the deal.

The NFL wants the right to replace officials at will, based on metrics they don't have to explain, and hire more of them to reduce the overall pool of compensation. It's crap. The officials deserve to be held to standards, but saying you can pull them from any game for no reason and for no pay? That's criminal.

[HaemishM]

It's not just about the money. If that was the issue, they would have already made the deal.

The NFL wants the right to replace officials at will, based on metrics they don't have to explain, and hire more of them to reduce the overall pool of compensation. It's crap. The officials deserve to be held to standards, but saying you can pull them from any game for no reason and for no pay? That's criminal.

I hadn't heard about that part. That explains a lot. It's not just about the fucking pensions, it's about their idea that the refs are expendable and easily replaceable by cheaper counterparts.

Which is abso-fucking-lutely false, as we've seen entirely too much lately.

[sickrubik]

It's not just about the money. If that was the issue, they would have already made the deal.

The NFL wants the right to replace officials at will, based on metrics they don't have to explain, and hire more of them to reduce the overall pool of compensation. It's crap. The officials deserve to be held to standards, but saying you can pull them from any game for no reason and for no pay? That's criminal.

Link? Not that I don't believe you, but I've heard such conflicting stuff everywhere, I have no idea what to believe anymore.

[Paelos]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/negotiations-with-referees-at-a-standstill-despite-replacements-debacle-on-monday-night-football-092512

QUESTION ME WILL YOU??? 

In all seriousness, the reporting on the gap has been really piss-poor. This article clears it up a bit. The big sticking point to me is:

While the NFL referees group feels it does a credible job grading and assigning its officials based on performance, the NFL insists it must have more control regarding what happens to underperforming officials. To that end, the NFL wants to have three seven-member officiating crews at the ready who could step in and replace officials it feels aren’t making the grade. An underperforming official could be pulled for an entire game or even longer. The NFLRA, which has prepared and trained a list of up-and-coming officials to replace those near retirement age, is opposed to the notion of the NFL choosing a taxi squad of crew that could undermine their chemistry, experience and perspective.

Basically, the NFL wants 3 "Fuck you" crews ready to go if they decided they don't like a group of refs. They say it's about performance. It's not. The NFL wants to try to control the situation by never allowing this to happen again. Training more officials means they don't have to worry about "uppity refs" getting the upper hand anymore.

[Segoris]

The NFLRA and NFL agreed to terms on that subject though
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/26/nfl-and-refs-agree-on-backup-officials-but-pension-issue-remains/

Pensions are still the main point

[murdoc]

According to Adam Schefter an agreement between the NFL and NFLRA has been reached.

EDIT: DAMMIT SEGORIS
DOUBLE EDIT: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources