Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread [Spoiler tag free, beware]

[Ingmar]

You're getting awfully pissed off about something you haven't even experienced for yourself.

On other fronts, definitely don't agree with the 'it can't be art if they change it to make people happy' people. Pretty sure it can still be art if they do, Handel rewrote the Messiah like 34 times for different audiences.

[Paelos]

You're getting awfully pissed off about something you haven't even experienced for yourself.

Partly it's because I was looking forward to the game, and then things spiraled into...well where we are now with the truth coming out. The other part is that with the exception of DA2, I've owned everything they've done.

It's just frustrating as a consumer of all their good that we're at this point, and even up to this point being fed a pile of bullshit by apologists in charge instead of ownership of mistakes.

[Mosesandstick]

There's a post on their forums about how things have been occuring PR-wise and stuff. It's not exactly about the game but it's actually an interesting read.

[murdoc]

So, some of you are not going to play a pretty good game because of the 10 minute ending that you've already spoiled for yourself.

Ok. 

[Paelos]

There's a post on their forums about how things have been occuring PR-wise and stuff. It's not exactly about the game but it's actually an interesting read.

That's some really cool analysis of the situation.

[Merusk]

You're getting awfully pissed off about something you haven't even experienced for yourself.

On other fronts, definitely don't agree with the 'it can't be art if they change it to make people happy' people. Pretty sure it can still be art if they do, Handel rewrote the Messiah like 34 times for different audiences.

Agreed.  There were many Davids before the one we know.  Mona Lisa had several reworkings of her smile.  Jasper Johns did hundreds of Flag paintings before Flag 1954.  Ansel Adams continued to refine and rework his negatives, creating new prints and exposures of old studies until he died

All that people remember is the final work and the perfected result.  If they fix the ending and games truly are art, that's all that will matter.

[Velorath]

The whole blog post comes off as very demeaning, in that he seems to think everyone is just being very passionate about the ending, over reacting and just generally being pissy. Not that you know, the ending might actually BE horrid, just that people are upset.

There is a pretty bad signal to noise ratio when it comes to people bitching about Bioware to be fair.  They only just recently had to deal with that "Hamburger Helper" incident where one of their writers got a bombardment of harassment for having the opinion that one should be able to skip past gameplay.  There's also a number of people who do just like to bitch about Bioware's games even though they don't play any of them.  We've got a few of them here, and I know there's a ton of them on GAF,

[Tannhauser]

That whole post was PR shinola, I'd be surprised if Ray wrote anything on it.  Top men are on this now.  Top.  Men.

I'd say they are trying to calm the waters with vague promises and change the message.  They are playing for time, time for everyone to lose interest in raising a stink over the ending.

Going to the critics reviews was god awful.  What, those critics that rely on EA ad money?  I've lost a lot of respect for PA.  I really thought they were an independent voice.  Nope, they made a comic poking fun at the fans and Jerry does his usual verbal diarrhea that doesn't really say anything.  Very disappointed in them.

Personally, I'm over it, but I can't turn away from the train wreck.  This is not the end of the ending.  It's the beginning of the end of the ends beginning.

[Rokal]

There's a post on their forums about how things have been occuring PR-wise and stuff. It's not exactly about the game but it's actually an interesting read.

It reads like something from a conspiracy theorist. The only plausible reason for the SWTOR weekend and the goliath event was a reaction to ending-backlash or a 'battle-plan' for possible backlash? Oooookay.

[Ingmar]

There's a post on their forums about how things have been occuring PR-wise and stuff. It's not exactly about the game but it's actually an interesting read.

It reads like something from a conspiracy theorist. The only plausible reason for the SWTOR weekend and the goliath event was a reaction to ending-backlash or a 'battle-plan' for possible backlash? Oooookay.

Yeah that part is  . The multiplayer weekend events are something that I would expect to continue, they've been doing the special limited time store packs and such as well the whole time, it all just seems like part of a normal promotion plan to me.

[Mosesandstick]

It reads like something from a conspiracy theorist.

Read the rest of it and ignore that part if you'd like.

[Sir Fodder]

I find it funny how so many players first reaction upon completing the game is to go "well, time to watch the other endings on youtube.." and I wonder to what extent devs sort of take that factor into account. I know because of that, I was able to skip a bunch of the game when I started getting fidgity to finish it.

I think part of the rage factor regarding the end sequence is due to loss of control, its like you've been brutally CC'd. Not to make excuses for the crappy ending, but I do think the indoctrination theory was indeed intended, though it doesn't explain the Normandy end sequence nor the utter galaxy-wide devastation that exploding mass relays would cause. Still, I'm not gonna complain too much, I'm diggin' the "marauder shields" as end-boss meme for instance.

[Jeff Kelly]

Bioware always had shitty PR and communication. Example: People have been asking for years if Bioware would offer the original voice tracks for localized versions of their xbox games. The tracks have always been included on the PC and PS3 versions. If disc space was an issue then maybe as a xbox live download. Bioware always declined. Eurogamer reported last year that they'd change the police for ME 3, which was quickly denied by Bioware. The last thread about the issue started a week prior to release where Bioware repeated that it won't offer the voice tracks for download. That's why I imported a version from the UK.

The original voice track is available for download via xbox live and has been since release. I'ts even free of charge.

The fact that a single writer can derail a multi million dollar project without opposition shows a critical lack of oversight and ineffective management.

The PR statement shows that they don't understand their own customers

[caladein]

I've lost a lot of respect for PA.  I really thought they were an independent voice.  Nope, they made a comic poking fun at the fans and Jerry does his usual verbal diarrhea that doesn't really say anything.  Very disappointed in them.

I'm sorry, but just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they must have ulterior motives for doing so.

You clearly are not a fan of where Tycho draws the line between authorship and critique (in that there might not be one).  And any time someone brings up a defense of artistic integrity or control, not just Mr. Hudson now, but in WoW as well, a number of posters here go off.

If anything, I find that a lot more interesting (and personally discouraging) than anything to do with a particular game.

[Paelos]

That's because the only time you hear about artistic integrity in gaming is when the shit has hit the fan.

[Ingmar]

http://pastebin.com/i2cNVDp4

If this is real, it pretty much explains the vast quality gulf between the ending and the rest of the game.

EDIT: Apparently a post from one of the writers, who then realized "hey I shouldn't post this because I am going to get my ass fired" and edited to nothing, but someone grabbed it and tossed it in pastebin.

[caladein]

That's because the only time you hear about artistic integrity in gaming is when the shit has hit the fan.

I don't think that's relevant given the attacks are on the argument in general, not on its specific invocation.  Moreover, it will usually be brought up in that kind of situation anyway because it's a defense for an unpopular opinion.

[Paelos]

It will usually be brought up in that kind of situation anyway because it's a defense for an unpopular opinion.

Right. My distaste is for its use in that way; as a bailout for an unpopular decision. I find it even more offensive that a multi-billion dollar company would want to hide behind an artistic subjectivity defense.

[Jeff Kelly]

i find the argument to be disingenuous. It's too often used as a backhanded insult where "artistic subjectivity" is an euphemism for "you're just to stupid to get it"

[Jeff Kelly]

He confusion begins. The first publications are reporting on the press release by Bioware. Most claim that Bioware agreed to change the ending. Just as I said people already misunderstand the text.

[Simond]

The whole blog post comes off as very demeaning, in that he seems to think everyone is just being very passionate about the ending, over reacting and just generally being pissy. Not that you know, the ending might actually BE horrid, just that people are upset.

There is a pretty bad signal to noise ratio when it comes to people bitching about Bioware to be fair.  They only just recently had to deal with that "Hamburger Helper" incident where one of their writers got a bombardment of harassment for having the opinion that one should be able to skip past gameplay.  There's also a number of people who do just like to bitch about Bioware's games even though they don't play any of them.  We've got a few of them here, and I know there's a ton of them on GAF,

Hi!

Also: Bioware hasn't put out an unalloyed good game in a fair while. They've all been various degrees of flawed (some lesser, some greater) since, what, the original Mass Effect? ME2 -  dumbed-down mechanics, most of the loyalty missions boil down to "parent issues", plot is ultimately irrelevant. DA:O - that one level (the fade or the deep roads depending on personal opinion), ridiculous class balance. DA2....all of it. SWTOR - mediocre and feature-incomplete WoW-clone remains mediocre and feature-incomplete even with full voice acting. ME3 - the terrible, terrible ending. And yet, they still keep getting 9/10 or 10/10 and GotY awards....  

PS: I do play Bioware games. Just not the bad ones, which obviously means I haven't played any since DA:O/ME2. Want me to break out my 4-cd case and cloth map from Baldur's Gate 1?

[Ratman_tf]

Want me to break out my 4-cd case and cloth map from Baldur's Gate 1?

Pics or it didn't happen!

[Ingmar]

i find the argument to be disingenuous. It's too often used as a backhanded insult where "artistic subjectivity" is an euphemism for "you're just to stupid to get it"

Sometimes there really is an artistic choice involved, and sometimes people really are too dumb to get it.

I don't think that's the case for the ME3 ending, but there is absolutely bad criticism of art out there, rooted in nothing more than not 'getting' it - and these opinions change over time, as well. It is really difficult to get a handle on the artistic merit of a particular piece of art 2 weeks after it is produced, before a work's context is clear, before you've really had much of a chance to think through the thing, etc. If you look at film criticism for example, and go down lists of all-time great films produced by modern film critics and then compare them to how they were received at release, you'll find an incredible disparity of opinion in a lot of cases. And when you get to non-critical reception of art, all bets are off. Tons of people will criticize something as 'bad' because it made them feel unhappy, even if that was the artistic goal of the work in the first place. That's prime 'doesn't get it' territory.

Let me stress that I don't think that is the case here - if ME3 had a sad-but-well-executed ending we'd be having a different conversation - but to rule it out in all cases as an argument I think is just wrong.

[Jeff Kelly]

that's why i love art the triggers a visceral reaction, it grips you and bypasses the logical and rational part of your brain. I'm usually not a fan of art that is too analytical and constructed

[Koyasha]

I find it funny how so many players first reaction upon completing the game is to go "well, time to watch the other endings on youtube.." and I wonder to what extent devs sort of take that factor into account. I know because of that, I was able to skip a bunch of the game when I started getting fidgity to finish it.

Speaking for myself, I had this reaction because of the ending.  Usually I don't do that.  This time, after watching that nonsense of an ending, I jumped over to youtube to see if it was because I had done something wrong or what, and discovered that video that compares all the endings and they're all identical.  I think I would have been far more angry if I had assumed, as was my first reaction, that I got some sort of 'bad end' because I did something wrong, and then replayed the entire game only to get the same damn ending again.

[Ratman_tf]

I would have loved an ending that made me feel something besides "Well, that was dumb."

[Margalis]

That post is so much bullshit. I liked these two bits the best:

Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.
...
However, most folks appear to agree that the game as a whole is exceptional, with more than 75 critics giving it a perfect review score and a review average in the mid-90s.

Ha.

The journey you undertake in Mass Effect provokes an intense range of highly personal emotions in the player; even so, the passionate reaction of some of our most loyal players to the current endings in Mass Effect 3 is something that has genuinely surprised us.

Current. Lol.

All the talk about artistic integrity was of course ridiculous. Shitty endings with recolored lasers was an artistic choice. Sure!

If anything compromised the artistic integrity of the end it was letting two guys come up with the ending based on some nonsensical marketing scribbles on a napkin rather than involving the actual artists who worked on the rest of the game. Essentially the dudes in charge pulled rank. That's artistry?

[Daeven]

PS: I do play Bioware games. Just not the bad ones, which obviously means I haven't played any since DA:O/ME2. Want me to break out my 4-cd case and cloth map from Baldur's Gate 1?

Screw it. I'm breaking out Planescape: Torment to remind myself what a branching ending based on playstyle is like.

[Velorath]

Also: Bioware hasn't put out an unalloyed good game in a fair while. They've all been various degrees of flawed (some lesser, some greater) since, what, the original Mass Effect? ME2 -  dumbed-down mechanics, most of the loyalty missions boil down to "parent issues", plot is ultimately irrelevant. DA:O - that one level (the fade or the deep roads depending on personal opinion), ridiculous class balance. DA2....all of it. SWTOR - mediocre and feature-incomplete WoW-clone remains mediocre and feature-incomplete even with full voice acting. ME3 - the terrible, terrible ending. And yet, they still keep getting 9/10 or 10/10 and GotY awards....  

PS: I do play Bioware games. Just not the bad ones, which obviously means I haven't played any since DA:O/ME2. Want me to break out my 4-cd case and cloth map from Baldur's Gate 1?

I think once you get past nostalgia, Bioware's games arguably aren't much better or worse than they've ever been.  Gameplay-wise I'd argue that their current games are better.  I wish you could take more complete control over your party members in the ME games, and I can see how a lot of Bioware fans prefer pure RPG to more shooter-based gameplay, but honestly, the BG/NWN stuff was based off 2nd Ed. AD&D rules and had horrible balance issues, especially in the higher levels.  I guess some people like the fact that the right combinations can completely break the game, but it's not really what I'd call great mechanics.  Character-wise, I think Bioware hit their stride with KotoR, but had some pretty great characters in the DA and ME games.  Not to say there weren't any good characters in their earlier stuff, but a lot of them weren't quite as fleshed out back then.  Plot-wise, I think all their games could have used a bit more work..

I'm trying to take anything away from their earlier work, because I've enjoyed most of the games they've made over the years, but while I can understand not liking the shift in genre's since WRPG's are pretty rare these days, I don't really buy the "Bioware's games are shit now" attitude.   I usually just translate that into "I want more isometric, turn-based RPG's".

[Mosesandstick]

I think anyone who thinks that the recent Bioware games are immeasurably worse has a serious case of rose-tinted glasses going on.

What annoys me is that Bioware seems to be willing to move games and the genre forward but then does things that are stupidly backward in other areas.

[MournelitheCalix]

PS: I do play Bioware games. Just not the bad ones, which obviously means I haven't played any since DA:O/ME2. Want me to break out my 4-cd case and cloth map from Baldur's Gate 1?

Screw it. I'm breaking out Planescape: Torment to remind myself what a branching ending based on playstyle is like.

One of the very few games ever that can credibly be considered a work of art.

[tmp]

Gameplay-wise I'd argue that their current games are better.

I'd say that the shooter mechanics of ME3 are better than their previous attempts, the mini-games are as silly as ever (their saving grace is they got mostly cut) and the dialogue based interactions get increasingly stripped down. DA2 was pretty awful gameplay-wise (and questionable change of course in aesthethics didn't help) So overall, it's pretty mixed bag.

[Sjofn]

What about DA2's gameplay was "awful," out of curiousity?

[jakonovski]

I'm gonna vote for wave based combat. It was so bad.

[Sjofn]

There were waves in DA:O too, it was just disguised much much much better, with the darkspawn streaming in from around corners and shit instead of jumping down off roofs that may or may not actually exist on that particular map. :P I can see disliking that, though (I was merely indifferent).