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Author
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Topic: The death of football (Read 72624 times)
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ghost
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Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.
Why would we need one? Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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Why would we need one? Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?
It gives you a chance to watch new shitty teams and laugh at the old shitty teams.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Lucas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3298
Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.
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Yeah well, the discussion related to this is not that simple of course but...what about the hope, the dream that, one day, your local town/small sized city team will one day reach the best division (or the immediate ones after that, at least) after sloggin' through the hell of the local divisions years before? When now that you've finally reached the NBA, you'll remember the days (and tell your nephews about it) when your local team was playing against abysmal ones in a shitty gym that could barely contain 50 people, and now you are playing against the best?
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" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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When was the last time that actually happened?
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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ghost
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Why would we need one? Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?
It gives you a chance to watch new shitty teams and laugh at the old shitty teams. So we can trade Fort Wayne and the Quad Cities for Pittsburgh? Hmmm.
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Lucas
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3298
Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.
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Well, err...In Football Manager, it happens quite often In Italy it happened twice in the last 12 years: with Chievo and Novara. Chievo (the suburb, 4500 souls): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChievoChievo Verona (the football team) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._ChievoVeronaNow, what's important to note is that, of course,to achieve something like that nowadays primarily requires a good financial backing (together with good advisors), and Chievo got into Serie A mostly because the chairman could purchase good enough players. So yes, the "romantic" aspect of that is still there, but money, surprise surprise, is very important.
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" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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In NorthAmerica, no matter which league, a city doesn't get a team unless it can support X amount of fans/viewers. Actual in game success is irrelevant, it's entirely about viewership/profitability.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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ghost
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And with the way free agency works, that is the way it should be. We don't need more Buffalo Bills or Pittsburgh Pirates or Sacramento Kings or Florida Marlins.
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Ingmar
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Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013. (EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?)
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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ghost
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Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013. (EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?) Quit fucking with my soapbox.
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Lucas
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Posts: 3298
Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.
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In NorthAmerica, no matter which league, a city doesn't get a team unless it can support X amount of fans/viewers. Actual in game success is irrelevant, it's entirely about viewership/profitability.
That's a pity, but anyway, let's consider a (probably shitty as I detail it below) promotion/relegation system: Let's open the U.S. map; umm, ok, I pick the state of Georgia and let's see...a town that is near one of the basketball franchises, Atlanta. Hmm, ok, I notice "Gainesville", Georgia. About 33.000 souls reside there. So, basketball fans have always looked to the "Big A." in basketball, at least those that want to support Atlanta instead of another franchise. But imagine that there are local, "area" leagues (the Atlanta tier) where teams battle each other in order to reach the upper tier, the "Georgia League", maybe divided in two more leagues (North and South Georgia, let's say); and then, after that, another tier, the "Minor National" which is split in two and dedicated to the "minor" East and West ones The tier is divided in three more leagues. From bottom to top: - Div 2 - Div 1 - NBA Now, probably the "Gainesville woodpeckers" will never reach the NBA. But they never were that ambitious. Still, because of good investments, a good chairman (that unfortunately could last long) and advisors, they made it to "Div 2" for the first time in their team life, which made the entire town proud.
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" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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We have minor leagues, well baseball and hockey do, they provide teams for those small markets. The players move up from them, not the teams though.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Segoris
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Posts: 2637
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Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013. (EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?) Quit fucking with my soapbox. And the Bills, who have done a pretty good job in the last couple of years rebuilding and are not actually acknowledged as an NFL team for the first time in years? (hey at least you got the Kings right afaik!)
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caladein
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Posts: 3174
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NA sports teams are basically franchises owned by their leagues.
I think college (gridiron) football gets pretty close to a proto-FA model, but the National League having a completely different history than the FA sort of set our two systems off on their own courses. And there's really not much chance of going back post-radio/TV and ML-owned farm systems.
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"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." - Ingmar"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" - tgr
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Sir T
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I'd agree if there was another alternative that was anywhere near as entertaining. If only soccer was't shitty Rugby says hi. As does Gaelic footbal and Hurling. Nothing is more manly than watching men chasing one another with long hard sticks.
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Hic sunt dracones.
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Ingmar
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Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Sjofn
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I was a 'bit' player and played while recovering from concussions, played with a broken hand, and played with a separated shoulder. I can't imagine what some starters endure.
Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.
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God Save the Horn Players
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Nebu
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Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.
It's much better. You're less likely to lead with your head if you're not wearing a helmet. Rugby tackles are much more technically sound. Tackles in the NFL are more akin to launching yourself at someone. Then there's the whole kickoff and punt fiasco in American football.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Nebu
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Posts: 17613
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Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.
From my experience in medicine (and survival training), women are much tougher than men. When I worked at UNC I used to play pickup basketball with the women from the UNC team. Most of them could kick my ass (both at basketball and physically). Manly man man man sports just have an aire of manly. It's slathered on like Aqua Velva.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Ingmar
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Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.
It's much better. You're less likely to lead with your head if you're not wearing a helmet. Rugby tackles are much more technically sound. Tackles in the NFL are more akin to launching yourself at someone. Then there's the whole kickoff and punt fiasco in American football. I'm not sure I buy that. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011011065700.htmhttp://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2027053,00.htmlFrom the latter article: According to one study, in South Africa about 14% of high school rugby players and 23% of professional and club players annually are diagnosed with concussions. Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher.
I could believe that it would be better, if everyone played without making mistakes.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Sjofn
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Posts: 8286
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Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.
From my experience in medicine (and survival training), women are much tougher than men. When I worked at UNC I used to play pickup basketball with the women from the UNC team. Most of them could kick my ass (both at basketball and physically). Manly man man man sports just have an aire of manly. It's slathered on like Aqua Velva. Well, that's sort of what I meant. Women are indeed very tough (I apparently have a very high pain tolerance compared to dudes I worked with as a stagehand), but in women's sports, while there is the pressure to suck it up, there's not that poisonous machismo to the degree dude sports have. And football is the dude-iest of all.
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God Save the Horn Players
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01101010
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Posts: 12003
You call it an accident. I call it justice.
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I was a 'bit' player and played while recovering from concussions, played with a broken hand, and played with a separated shoulder. I can't imagine what some starters endure.
Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football. Dated a girl in college who played field hockey. She gave a new meaning to tough.
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Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
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Sjofn
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Posts: 8286
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My favorite "suck it up, bitch" moment in soccer was when I had an asthma attack after running some tiny striker down. All I really needed was to come out and take my inhaler and wait a minute for it to kick in, but my coach resented even that. Surely I could've lasted another 20 minutes out there and waited for the half to end, rite? (To clarify, this was in high school soccer where there are NO LIMITS ON SUBSTITUTIONS, so all she lost was me gasping for air and playing like shit for a few minutes.)
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God Save the Horn Players
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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Breathing is for pussies, are you a pussy Sjofn?
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Sjofn
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Posts: 8286
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ASTHMA IS ALL IN THE MIND, FORDEL
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God Save the Horn Players
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sigil
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Posts: 1538
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MLS won't have it because it's owend by billionaires who will not have their product mired with some team owend by some local beer distributor or some shit.
Also,my personal vision of the timeline is that NFL has about ten more years before the lawsuits and demographics begin to make the mark. Which is why the billionaires are in MLS. NBA and MLS are your growth. Everything else is horse racing.
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lamaros
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Posts: 8021
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Back on topic: I was under the impression that there was little you could do to stop brain injuries unless you slow the rate and speed of collision, as a helmet and so forth doesn't really do anything to stop the brain smashing against your skull when you smash into someone else. In Australian Rules Football recently they have been trying to get on top of this by putting a few new rules in place, limiting certain types of tackling, and making it so that any played that is concussed is not allowed to return to the field of play for that game. They have also tried to institute new measures to slow down the pace of the game and reduce impact and soft tissue injuries. http://www.afl.com.au/NewsViews/TodaysNews/Features/Features/GPSData/tabid/18840/Default.aspx
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« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 07:15:25 PM by lamaros »
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Mosesandstick
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Posts: 2474
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I thought one of the problems was that having a helmet gave you the freedom to tackle harder and in ways more likely to cause a concussion. Sort of how boxers wearing gloves makes it safer for their hands and way more dangerous for their heads.
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Cyrrex
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Posts: 10603
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Regardless, we will never go back to a state where helmets are not providing at least as much perceived protection as they are now...if for no other reason than the sport would, for the majority, become instantly unwatchable. It isn't like boxing, where removing the gloves would actually make things instantly MORE exciting. The game would slow down dramatically.
I, for one, have concern for the young (pre-high school) kids, but that is where my gives-a-fuck basically ends. These guys know full well the danger they are getting into and are more than willing to take the risks. That you are X% more likely to suffer permanent injury is not something that is going to stop very many boys and men from taking their chances, even those with little hope of making a lucrative career out of it. The evidence is all around us.
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"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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I'm not sure they actually DO know the risks, especially the way these players are 'groomed' for their careers. It's really not that uncommon for the coaching/training staff to basically be a young athletes entire world.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Cyrrex
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Posts: 10603
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That excuse doesn't hold up for me. It's like saying that you don't know the risks of smoking just because you fell asleep during health class. Any reasonable person knows on an instinctual level that repeatedly smashing your head and body into other heads and bodies may be harmful to your well being. They deliberately choose to ignore the risks, because it probably won't happen to them (and in the grand scheme, it probably won't).
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"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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"Which is why we have this here Helmet for you to wear son, keep it on and you'll be FINE. No no, don't go listening to those nerdy egg-head doctors, look at me, I've played the game all my days and I ain't no mental case now am I? Now git out dere and GIVERRR"
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42629
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.
Because billionaires having to lose money by dropping to a lower league for putting out a shit team (or rebuilding year team) would whine and cry to lose that revenue.
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Nevermore
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But wouldn't that just be the invisible hand punishing the losers?
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Over and out.
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42629
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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Only if it's some other loser.
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