f13.net

Before you say that football is far too big to ever disappear, consider the history: If you look at the stocks in the Fortune 500 from 1983, for example, 40 percent of those companies no longer exist. The original version of Napster no longer exists, largely because of lawsuits. No matter how well a business matches economic conditions at one point in time, it's not a lock to be a leader in the future, and that is true for the NFL too. Sports are not immune to these pressures. In the first half of the 20th century, the three big sports were baseball, boxing, and horse racing, and today only one of those is still a marquee attraction.

Precollegiate football is already sustaining 90,000 or more concussions each year. If ex-players start winning judgments, insurance companies might cease to insure colleges and high schools against football-related lawsuits. Coaches, team physicians, and referees would become increasingly nervous about their financial exposure in our litigious society. If you are coaching a high school football team, or refereeing a game as a volunteer, it is sobering to think that you could be hit with a $2 million lawsuit at any point in time.

In a capitalist society, there's nothing wrong with someone willing to get their brains beat out for money as long as they willingly accept the consequences of doing so. 

NCAA is already putting in a rule change where if your helmet comes off, you have to sit the next play.

Part of the problem with helmets today is that kids simply will not put them on correctly. Not only do they get sizes too big to fit their hair, but they don't strap them all the way on.

Other players describe an off-camera NFL that is darker than the carefully scripted show presented during Super Bowl week. Their recollections, based on playing careers that touched every decade from the 1960s to the 2000s, include:

* “Midnight snack” buffets at a team hotel the night before games that would consist not only of food and drink, but also painkillers so that, as Rory Graves, an Oakland Raiders offensive lineman from 1988-91, puts it, “The next day, you feel like a kid. You could run into a car — no pain! You didn’t feel nothing.”

* Cans of beer tucked into airplane seat pockets before players would board, so they’d have something at the ready to wash down the prescription drugs such as the painkiller Vicodin (commonly called “footballs” by players because of their oblong shape) or the muscle relaxant Flexeril (“home plates” because they’re pentagons) disbursed freely by someone coming down the aisle on team flights. “We took those drugs because we wanted to play, but there was nobody stopping us,” Turley says. “We’re young. We’re 10 feet tall. Nothing can harm us. If you’re giving it to us, we’re going to take it.”

* Widespread and regular use of Toradol, a medicine intended for pain relief, generally after an operation, and a central part of one of the lawsuits that says the drug could put someone with a head injury at increased risk. “If it wasn’t torn or it wasn’t broken, to me, Toradol fixed it and allowed me to keep going. I was so used to using it that I wanted to make it a weekly ritual to make sure that if I did get hurt, I wouldn’t have to be taken out of the game,” says Joe Horn, who estimated he got four or five concussions during a career in which he caught more than 600 passes for the Chiefs, Saints and Falcons from 1996-2007. “To be honest with you, we were kind of — what’s the word for it? — addicted. But I always thought it was OK; the NFL doctors were giving it to us.”

* Being scorned by teammates or coaches if unable to return to a game because of injury, and a seeming total dismissal, particularly in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, of the notion that head trauma could cause significant problems, immediately or long term. “Get back out there” was a phrase repeated by the ex-players, citing words they heard during practices or games. As Joe Harris, a linebacker with five teams from 1977-82, says: “I know I had nine or 10 concussions, because I played through them. A lot of times, I’m out there and I was dazed, and I heard guys say, ‘He’s knocked out, and he don’t even know it.’ And then you talk to your coach, and they bring out smelling salts. ‘Give him a hit of that, and put him back out on the field.’ And they show you fingers, and you say it’s three when it’s two. And they say, ‘Get back out there. Just hit the one in the middle.’”

* A day-to-day, post-football existence that is difficult because of, for some, depression, dementia, migraine headaches, memory lapses, along with balky hips and knees and shoulders. “My body hurts all the time,” says Mark Duper, who caught more than 500 passes as a wide receiver with Dan Marino’s Miami Dolphins from 1982-92. Duper is more concerned, though, about the ringing in his ears, the loss of memory, “having a conversation and, all of a sudden, I just forget what I’m talking about.”

Football is at the peak of popularity still, but it is not hard to envision a spiraling downward slope.

As any non-American will tell you, its a silly sport.  You're better off without it.

 :raspberry:

I'd agree if there was another alternative that was anywhere near as entertaining. If only soccer was't shitty ;D

We have that in the NFL too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgQULPRKLc) from this year's Super Bowl Champs

Well, if by "paranormal means" that "back spasms" are included :why_so_serious:

I played soccer in college, and I can barely stand to watch it unless it's world cup. 

Ties > shootouts.

I played soccer in college, and I can barely stand to watch it unless it's world cup. 

Why is the concept of a tie so difficult for people to accept? If two teams batter themselves into a stalemate, why can't we just accept that?

Why is the concept of a tie so difficult for people to accept? If two teams batter themselves into a stalemate, why can't we just accept that?

I guess it is just a weird philosophical thing. I'd rather have a tie than an outcome determined by something akin to a coin flip.

But...The are lots of "nuances" to a draw, but you can't really grasp them if A) you don't have a real favourite team you follow with all your heart and B) you are not really INTO the football/soccer tactical aspect (and the psychological one). You'll just consider it a boring affair (and yes, there are undoubtedly boring draws) and be done with it.

Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.

Why would we need one?  Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?

It gives you a chance to watch new shitty teams and laugh at the old shitty teams.

Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013.  :why_so_serious:

(EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?)

In NorthAmerica, no matter which league, a city doesn't get a team unless it can support X amount of fans/viewers. Actual in game success is irrelevant, it's entirely about viewership/profitability.

Quit fucking with my soapbox.   :oh_i_see:

NA sports teams are basically franchises owned by their leagues.

I'd agree if there was another alternative that was anywhere near as entertaining. If only soccer was't shitty ;D

I was a 'bit' player and played while recovering from concussions, played with a broken hand, and played with a separated shoulder.  I can't imagine what some starters endure.

Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

It's much better.  You're less likely to lead with your head if you're not wearing a helmet.  Rugby tackles are much more technically sound.  Tackles in the NFL are more akin to launching yourself at someone. 

Then there's the whole kickoff and punt fiasco in American football.

According to one study, in South Africa about 14% of high school rugby players and 23% of professional and club players annually are diagnosed with concussions. Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher.

From my experience in medicine (and survival training), women are much tougher than men.  When I worked at UNC I used to play pickup basketball with the women from the UNC team.  Most of them could kick my ass (both at basketball and physically). 

Manly man man man sports just have an aire of manly.  It's slathered on like Aqua Velva. 

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.

It always struck me as odd that European soccer nations feature a much more capitalist sports ownership and organizational structure whereas American sports franchises are rife with socialism -- from stadium subsidies to NFL model of revenue sharing that guarantees teams turn a profit before even the first game of the season is staged.

In Australian Rules Football recently they have been trying to get on top of this by putting a few new rules in place, limiting certain types of tackling, and making it so that any played that is concussed is not allowed to return to the field of play for that game. T

It always struck me as odd that European soccer nations feature a much more capitalist sports ownership and organizational structure whereas American sports franchises are rife with socialism -- from stadium subsidies to NFL model of revenue sharing that guarantees teams turn a profit before even the first game of the season is staged.

Basically, the Champions League only a full season of it?

I think the Wigans of the world would wither and die should that happen, though I guess the survival of the Dag & Reds of the world would seem to indicate otherwise. It would certainly kill the Premier Leagues as global brands though. The BPL without Man U. would be a pale shell of its former self, and the SPL without the Old Firms wouldn't last a year.

Basically, the Champions League only a full season of it?

I think the Wigans of the world would wither and die should that happen, though I guess the survival of the Dag & Reds of the world would seem to indicate otherwise. It would certainly kill the Premier Leagues as global brands though. The BPL without Man U. would be a pale shell of its former self, and the SPL without the Old Firms wouldn't last a year.

Yeah it would kill the premier leagues themselves as global brand, but their brand is being propped up by the appeal of the super clubs anyways. People in China, USA and Africa are tuning in to watch Man U, not Wigan, and those revenues are subsidizing the latter. The owners of these clubs have crunched those numbers, they know how much they are leaving on the table, follow the money and a move to an all-year champion league seems inevitable, especially when some of these super clubs are publicly traded entities who have profit obligations to their shareholders.

The premier leagues would have less prominence after this sure sure but I think would still do fine.  A lot of fans would probably appreciate their leagues becoming more local, and less monetized, thus more accessable. In North America we see this with the popularity of college/high school sports in the US, and junior hockey in Canada. Cheap tickets, local kids, something the local community really is a part of. At the end of the day, some bloke in Blackburn just wants to put on his colours, have some beers and watch his town's soccer team on Saturday, what does he care if the league is a 4$ billion operation or 500 million? he might even appreciate it more if his team actually had a reasonable chance to win someday.

Maybe if Junior Seau is found to have evidence of CTE it'll be the straw to the camel's back. I doubt it.

Yeah... then they will end boxing, MMA, and rugby too.  It's blood sport and people enjoy watching it.  Same as it ever was. 

Do you have any idea how hard it is to play football at a high level while also wearing safety gear?  Even if they require the gear, players will shortcut and dodge the rules to maintain whatever edge they need to keep their job on the field.  All Seau has shown is that football is a dangerous sport and we need to ensure that players know exactly what they're getting into up front.  The best that we can hope for is better medical treatment of players, better retirement plans (with healthcare), and harsh penalties for teams and owners that force players back on the field too quickly. 

Especially since the risks are exponentially lower for the lower level of play.

The NFL is responsible for it's use of performance enhancing substances, and balking at testing for them. That kind of behavior does have a trickle down effect when you're trying to make it into the big league.

The missing bit of information here is exactly how many of these players use PEDs.  There is no way that the number that we hear about is the actual number, but I seriously doubt it is that high.  For the NFL to be held culpable I would think that it would have to be a requirement to use PEDs to perform at that level, and that's clearly not the case. 

“There has been no decrease in steroid use in the last two decades. They’re just more sophisticated now.”

He also said that there have been so many spinoffs of drugs that the testers can’t keep up.

“The drugs are readily available and they work. Multi-millionaires can get whatever they want.”

“The major sports have drug testing systems that amount to the fox guarding the hen house.”

“I find the claim that we are now in the post-steroid era of Major League Baseball to be hilarious.”

“Steroid fatigue has set in. The leagues don’t care because they know their customers don’t care.”

“You can deny that your favorite athletes or favorite teams use steroids, but you can’t deny that they’re getting concussions.”

“The media are  the same on the issue now as they were during the baseball steroid era–a bunch of sycophants who look the other way.”

Naum's article states my belief and concern. I think the vast majority of NFL players are using them, so much so that it's a standard practice to be involved at the NFL level. That's where my concern about the lower levels comes from. If you create a barrier to entry based on illegal methods, you are responsible for people using those methods to attempt to get in.

The missing bit of information here is exactly how many of these players use PEDs.  There is no way that the number that we hear about is the actual number, but I seriously doubt it is that high.  For the NFL to be held culpable I would think that it would have to be a requirement to use PEDs to perform at that level, and that's clearly not the case. 

I don't think the percentage of people using PEDs is even relevant for whether or not the NFL should be held responsible. The fact is people who are not NFL players, who use PEDs, are still not NFL players and thus not under the NFL's rules. That was the original comment in question.

Barrier of entry or not, a non-NFL player makes a CHOICE to use PEDs on their own if that is what they thought was needed for them to gain entry into the NFL. No one forced them upon them, the NFL doesn't have a clause in their player contracts stating that players must use PEDs, and there's nothing saying if people wish to one day be in the NFL that they must use PEDs. I do agree that the NFL should crack down on PEDs (and for fuck's sake - stop giving players warnings when they'll be tested, that shit needs to stop). Doing this is the right way to do things, and holds the correct people responsible for making their own choices, and those people are players and staff under the NFL's jurisdiction. Also, no I'm not saying that there is no motivation for younger players to take PEDs, it's obviously there, but will be minimized when/if the league cracks down on their use.

In a groundbreaking study, researchers at Virginia Tech placed instrumented helmets on 7 and 8-year-old football players and collected data on more than 750 hits to the head over the course of a season.

The findings provide the first quantitative assessment of the acceleration and risk that young brains are exposed to in youth football.

Lead researcher, Stefan Duma, a professor of Biomedical Engineering, has been gathering data on head impacts among college players at Virginia Tech for nine seasons.  In his new study, he reports some head impacts in youth football equal in force to some of the bigger hits he sees at the college level. “Nobody expected to see hits of this magnitude,” says Duma.

But Paeolos point is that if that is the standard (to take PED) at the pro level, it's going to matriculate down to collegiate and high school level.

And your remarks do not address the fact that (a) most fans do not care if professional athletes use PED and (b) without full scale assault of rigorous testing (which professional leagues will NOT do, given the negative PR and existence of point (a))

Anecdotally speaking, a good friend (closer friend to my brother, but we all hung together) who played in NFL (a lineman), shared that "90-95%" cite was not far off the mark, that it's super-competitive, and any edge that can be had, is going to be utilized.

Finally, a study of head impacts in youth football (http://stonephillipsreports.com/2012/01/hard-hits-hard-numbers/):

This article (http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=29338), written in 2005, claims that only about 3% of NCAA football players used PEDs in 2001, down from about 10% in 1989.  I don't believe that it suddenly jumps up to 100% for pro athletes. 

My personal experience from the late 80's says that article is LOL worthy.

Do you think that a 90-95% estimated rate for pro is reasonable?  It just seems awfully high to me.  But then again there's cycling which has I would say near 100% penetrance for PED use.

Segoris I understand where you are coming from about personal choice and responsibility for your own actions. You can always just turn away from football, not inject yourself with HGH, and become a $50,000 a year insurance salesman.

My point stems from the fact that the NFL is creating unreasonable barriers to entry. The NFL is a monopoly in America. As such, people who try to be a part of that group must be subject to their rules, written or unwritten. However, if it requires illegal activity to gain entry, that is wrong.

I was more laughing at the 3% Div I number.  The percentage in the NFL would depend entirely on their definition of PED.  Designer steroids, HGH, etc. are obvious.  What about lesser used enhancers?

- I think when you look at how NFL teams evaluate personnel, skill position players stand to benefit quite a bit more than you realize.  It's important to remember that PEDs aren't just about star players breaking records, but also marginal players trying to stay in the league.  5% slower Peyton Manning is still Peyton Manning, but 5% slower Mr. 4th WR is no longer on the roster.

- I don't think anyone actually "knows the risks".  The science just isn't at the point where we know how minimal the trauma can be to cause long-term health problems.  Besides that, when this year's draft class set out to become professional football players, who the fuck knew what CTE even was?  We are still in the process of begrudgingly accepting that concussions are a serious health issue.

Do you think that a 90-95% estimated rate for pro is reasonable?  It just seems awfully high to me.  But then again there's cycling which has I would say near 100% penetrance for PED use.

Classic humans are bad at assessing risk.

When ex-NFL star Junior Seau took a shotgun to his sternum last week, commentators called it a "sobering wake-up call" for the league. How could a never-say-die athlete, a proven winner on the field, give up his own life? My Slate colleague Josh Levin wondered whether this latest football suicide would finally change the way we think about the consequences of repeated head trauma.

That wake-up call may have arrived Wednesday morning. News outlets (including this one) have suddenly became aware of some surprising and important CDC research published in January in the American Journal of Cardiology. At the request of the NFL Players Association, government scientists compared the death rates for almost 3,500 of the league's retirees to those for age- and race-matched non-athletes over the same years. The football players had much longer lives: Just 334 of them had passed away, compared with an expected total of 625.

What does this have to do with Junior Seau? The CDC study was designed to look for fatal cases of cardiovascular disease among the athletes. (It found one-third fewer than expected.) But the researchers also compiled numbers for more than a dozen other categories of disease and injury, including suicide. Former players were 42 percent less likely to die of cancer, 86 percent less likely to die of tuberculosis, and 73 percent less likely to die from digestive problems. And among the athletes who regularly played professional football between 1959 and 1988, a total of nine perished as a result of "intentional self-harm," compared with an expected number of about 22. The sample size was small, but the effect is large: Ex-NFLers were 59 percent less likely to commit suicide.

This is, so far as I know, the first major attempt to compare suicide rates among former football players with those in the general population. And while it's risky to draw too many conclusions from a single study—just a handful of deaths, really, among players from a bygone era—the news from the CDC challenges the prevailing narrative about Junior Seau and all the other aging athletes who killed themselves in recent years. It's now speculated, assumed, and even asserted outright that repeated knocks to the head leave football players with a condition called chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), and that this form of brain damage—diagnosed in the autopsied remains of ex-players like Dave Duerson and Andre Waters—might have caused their downward spiral into depression and suicide.

Ingmar - I had a serious concussion about 22 years ago.  I was put under close observation because there was a chance, however small, that I could actually die from it in the short term.  We have known this kind of thing forever, and all other risks pale compared to that one.  People have become paralyzed and even died as a direct result of playing football.  Discovering that it may also cause depression for you later down the road (for example) is practically irrelevant in my book.

I don't know.  I don't mean to be argumentative, I just think that we'd all be a little better off if we took more personal responsibility for stuff like this. 

I think they have been aware of the potential for single, serious injuries, or that they might be in for joint problems and the like. The awareness we're talking about here though is awareness that getting your bell rung at the 'coach just says to walk it off' level a few times can have long-term debilitating effects.

I'm not going to flame you over the brushing aside depression like it isn't anything serious thing, I can only assume you've been lucky enough to not have any serious cases of it in your family or friends to know just how bad it can be.

A class action lawsuit was filed in Philadelphia Thursday that incorporates over 80 pending lawsuits from former NFL players and the families of deceased NFL players, claiming the league hid the links between concussion-related and other head trauma and permanent brain damage.

The lawsuit aims to hold the NFL and helmet maker Riddell responsible for the damage they sustained, which range from Alzheimer's disease and dementia to Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, a progressive degenerative disease found in individuals who have been subjected to multiple concussions and other forms of head injury most common among pro athletes involved in contact sports, particularly football and hockey players, and professional wrestlers.

Yeah, although frankly the sample sizes involved are pretty small. I'm pretty sure the whole issue can't be considered conclusive either way yet.

No reported concussions, is of course not the same thing as no concussions.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/troy-polamalu-had-lot-concussions-not-afraid-hide-082608787--nfl.html

Yet a study -- really a study of studies -- published last year in Current Sports Medicine Reports reviewed the entire span of research on ImPACT and concluded: "[T]he false positive rate appears to be 30 percent to 40 percent of subjects of ImPACT … the false negative rate may be comparable. … The use of baseline neuropsychological testing … is not likely to diminish risk, and to the extent that there is a risk associated with 'premature' return-to-play … may even increase that risk."

ImPACT, the maker of the world's most popular concussion evaluation system, offers a 20-minute computerized test that players can take via software or online to measure verbal and visual memory, processing speed, reaction time and impulse control. The idea behind ImPACT (Immediate Post-Concussion Assessment and Cognitive Testing) and similar batteries is that doctors or athletic trainers can give a baseline test to a healthy athlete, conduct follow-up tests after an injury and then compare the results to help figure out when it's OK to return the athlete to play. Selling itself as "Valid. Reliable. Safe," ImPACT dominates the testing market and has spread throughout the sports world: Most NFL clubs use the test, as do all MLB, MLS and NHL clubs, the national associations for boxing, hockey and soccer in the U.S., and nine auto racing circuits.

Just like the only thing that could bring down WoW is WoW's mismanagement, the only thing that can bring down the NFL is the mismanagement of this particular issue.

A panel of medical experts convened by the National Academy of Sciences analyzed a series of academic studies, with the most recent showing that college football players suffer concussions at a rate of 6.3 concussions per 1,000 "athletic exposures" -- each exposure representing a practice or game. For high school football players, the comparable figure is 11.2.

However, the report authors concluded that there's no evidence that even the latest helmet technology prevents brain injury -- challenging a notion held by many parents and coaches.

Yeah, soccer isn't great either when it comes to head injuries. 

And the parents say that while giving their kid a Big Mac, large fries and a 64 ounce big gulp pepsi.

Did you ever head the ball? And did ever see that study that Olympic soccer players had diminished cognitive abilities compared to other Olympic athletes? :awesome_for_real:

Edit: ball not brain

Pfft.. whatever, commie.

Tons of people are saying that by not letting kids play, parents are condemning their kids to a life of obesity and not getting the benefit of team-building and discipline that football brings.

At which point I'm like, have they never heard of soccer? I played for 15 years and got all the benefits of a team and getting off my ass without the brain injuries.

Better genetics, nutrition, and training all contribute to stronger and faster athletes.  I remember seeing guards at Nebraska that could run step-for-step with me as a defensive back and they were running 280-300 lbs.  It was terrifying. 

I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that.  There is absolutely no way that this trio of items can produce 300 pound linemen that run like sprinters in a period of 25 years or so.  It's not like this is the first time in human history that we've emphasized healthy eating and working out for athletic purposes.  

You also forget that most of our beef and probably other proteins are being injected with all sorts of growth hormones and other shit that does who knows what to developing bodies. Have you not see the size of teenage girls' breats these days?  :pedobear:

You also forget that most of our beef and probably other proteins are being injected with all sorts of growth hormones and other shit that does who knows what to developing bodies. Have you not see the size of teenage girls' breats these days?  :pedobear:

Wow.  Pop Warner football has reported a 10% drop in participation from 2010 to 2012 (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor)....


Give it 10 years and it may be half, or less, if the significant injuries keep getting publicized. 

A Missouri high school football player who has been hospitalized with a brain injury since an October playoff game died Thursday, according to the school district's superintendent.

Officials have not said how Stover was injured. Jarvis said last week he couldn't discuss details of the injury but described it as "very serious."

Jason West, spokesman for the Missouri State High School Activities Association, said the association had been made aware of Stover's injury and death, but he was uncertain how Stover was injured. "We do know the game was halted at that time," West said.

Yeah if anything can fix football, for me it would start with the coaches and the ridiculous military mentality that permeates the sports.

Football is not a war.

I read an interesting opinion at one point that suggested that repetitive head trauma would be almost eliminated if we stopped using helmets.  The logic of this makes sense, although I'm sure that more superficial injuries would increase.  They seem to be able to pull it off in rugby though.

Several pages ago I linked a study that showed that rugby has just as many/more problems as American football.

Several pages ago I linked a study that showed that rugby has just as many/more problems as American football.

Imagine what you'd see in the NFL if players wore no helmets/pads.  People died regularly playing football in the era before helmets and they were nowhere near the speed and strength of today's pro players.

Anecdotal, I know, but my hockey coach yelled a lot.