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Author Topic: The death of football  (Read 26646 times)
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #35 on: March 06, 2012, 05:14:04 PM

Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.


Why would we need one?  Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?
Nebu
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Reply #36 on: March 06, 2012, 05:26:54 PM

Why would we need one?  Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?

It gives you a chance to watch new shitty teams and laugh at the old shitty teams.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #37 on: March 06, 2012, 05:27:50 PM

Yeah well, the discussion related to this is not that simple of course but...what about the hope, the dream that, one day, your local town/small sized city team will one day reach the best division (or the immediate ones after that, at least) after sloggin' through the hell of the local divisions years before? When now that you've finally reached the NBA, you'll remember the days (and tell your nephews about it) when your local team was playing against abysmal ones in a shitty gym that could barely contain 50 people, and now you are playing against the best?

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Fordel
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Reply #38 on: March 06, 2012, 05:31:41 PM

When was the last time that actually happened?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
ghost
The Dentist
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Reply #39 on: March 06, 2012, 05:35:20 PM

Why would we need one?  Is there a purpose in churning the shitty teams from one division to another?

It gives you a chance to watch new shitty teams and laugh at the old shitty teams.

So we can trade Fort Wayne and the Quad Cities for Pittsburgh?  Hmmm.
Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #40 on: March 06, 2012, 05:42:26 PM

Well, err...In Football Manager, it happens quite often  why so serious?

In Italy it happened twice in the last 12 years: with Chievo and Novara.

Chievo (the suburb, 4500 souls):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chievo

Chievo Verona (the football team)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._ChievoVerona

Now, what's important to note is that, of course,to achieve something like that nowadays primarily requires a good financial backing (together with good advisors), and Chievo got into Serie A mostly because the chairman could purchase good enough players. So yes, the "romantic" aspect of that is still there, but money, surprise surprise, is very important.


" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Fordel
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Reply #41 on: March 06, 2012, 05:45:06 PM

In NorthAmerica, no matter which league, a city doesn't get a team unless it can support X amount of fans/viewers. Actual in game success is irrelevant, it's entirely about viewership/profitability.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10508


Reply #42 on: March 06, 2012, 05:49:28 PM

And with the way free agency works, that is the way it should be.  We don't need more Buffalo Bills or Pittsburgh Pirates or Sacramento Kings or Florida Marlins. 
Ingmar
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Reply #43 on: March 06, 2012, 05:50:20 PM

Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013.  why so serious?

(EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?)

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10508


Reply #44 on: March 06, 2012, 05:52:25 PM

Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013.  why so serious?

(EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?)


Quit fucking with my soapbox.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Lucas
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Further proof that Italians have suspect taste in games.


Reply #45 on: March 06, 2012, 06:01:01 PM

In NorthAmerica, no matter which league, a city doesn't get a team unless it can support X amount of fans/viewers. Actual in game success is irrelevant, it's entirely about viewership/profitability.

That's a pity, but anyway, let's consider a (probably shitty as I detail it below) promotion/relegation system:

Let's open the U.S. map; umm, ok, I pick the state of Georgia and let's see...a town that is near one of the basketball franchises, Atlanta. Hmm, ok, I notice "Gainesville", Georgia. About 33.000 souls reside there.

So, basketball fans have always looked to the "Big A." in basketball, at least those that want to support Atlanta instead of another franchise. But imagine that there are local, "area" leagues (the Atlanta tier) where teams battle each other in order to reach the upper tier, the "Georgia League", maybe divided in two more leagues (North and South Georgia, let's say); and then, after that, another tier, the "Minor National" which is split in two and  dedicated to the "minor" East and West ones

The tier is divided in three more leagues. From bottom to top:

- Div 2
- Div 1
- NBA

Now, probably the "Gainesville woodpeckers" will never reach the NBA. But they never were that ambitious. Still, because of good investments, a good chairman (that unfortunately could last long) and advisors, they made it to "Div 2" for the first time in their team life, which made the entire town proud.


" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Fordel
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Reply #46 on: March 06, 2012, 06:06:55 PM

We have minor leagues, well baseball and hockey do, they provide teams for those small markets. The players move up from them, not the teams though.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Segoris
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Reply #47 on: March 06, 2012, 06:14:13 PM

Pirates have a shot at the Central in 2013.  why so serious?

(EDIT: Wait, the Marlins? The ones that have won 2 World Series in the last 15 years?)


Quit fucking with my soapbox.   Ohhhhh, I see.

And the Bills, who have done a pretty good job in the last couple of years rebuilding and are not actually acknowledged as an NFL team for the first time in years? (hey at least you got the Kings right afaik!)
caladein
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WWW
Reply #48 on: March 06, 2012, 06:37:37 PM

NA sports teams are basically franchises owned by their leagues.

I think college (gridiron) football gets pretty close to a proto-FA model, but the National League having a completely different history than the FA sort of set our two systems off on their own courses.  And there's really not much chance of going back post-radio/TV and ML-owned farm systems.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Sir T
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Reply #49 on: March 06, 2012, 07:04:11 PM

I'd agree if there was another alternative that was anywhere near as entertaining. If only soccer was't shitty Grin

Rugby says hi.

As does Gaelic footbal and Hurling. Nothing is more manly than watching men chasing one another with long hard sticks.  Ohhhhh, I see.

"I think its pretty troubling when a backyard decoration comes out swinging harder against Nazis than the President of the United States." Stephen Colbert
Ingmar
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Reply #50 on: March 06, 2012, 07:05:10 PM

Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sjofn
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Reply #51 on: March 06, 2012, 07:51:04 PM

I was a 'bit' player and played while recovering from concussions, played with a broken hand, and played with a separated shoulder.  I can't imagine what some starters endure.

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

God Save the Horn Players
Nebu
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Reply #52 on: March 06, 2012, 07:51:50 PM

Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.

It's much better.  You're less likely to lead with your head if you're not wearing a helmet.  Rugby tackles are much more technically sound.  Tackles in the NFL are more akin to launching yourself at someone.  

Then there's the whole kickoff and punt fiasco in American football.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Nebu
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Reply #53 on: March 06, 2012, 07:56:13 PM

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

From my experience in medicine (and survival training), women are much tougher than men.  When I worked at UNC I used to play pickup basketball with the women from the UNC team.  Most of them could kick my ass (both at basketball and physically). 

Manly man man man sports just have an aire of manly.  It's slathered on like Aqua Velva. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ingmar
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Reply #54 on: March 06, 2012, 07:59:26 PM

Rugby is no better from a brain injury standpoint, though.

It's much better.  You're less likely to lead with your head if you're not wearing a helmet.  Rugby tackles are much more technically sound.  Tackles in the NFL are more akin to launching yourself at someone. 

Then there's the whole kickoff and punt fiasco in American football.

I'm not sure I buy that.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011011065700.htm
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2027053,00.html

From the latter article:

Quote
According to one study, in South Africa about 14% of high school rugby players and 23% of professional and club players annually are diagnosed with concussions. Further, Michael Keating, the medical director for USA Rugby, says that a review of the scientific literature indicates that the number of incidences of concussions among rugby players and American-football players are similar. Some data suggest rugby incidence is 5% higher.

I could believe that it would be better, if everyone played without making mistakes.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Sjofn
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Reply #55 on: March 06, 2012, 08:02:12 PM

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

From my experience in medicine (and survival training), women are much tougher than men.  When I worked at UNC I used to play pickup basketball with the women from the UNC team.  Most of them could kick my ass (both at basketball and physically). 

Manly man man man sports just have an aire of manly.  It's slathered on like Aqua Velva. 

Well, that's sort of what I meant. Women are indeed very tough (I apparently have a very high pain tolerance compared to dudes I worked with as a stagehand), but in women's sports, while there is the pressure to suck it up, there's not that poisonous machismo to the degree dude sports have. And football is the dude-iest of all.

God Save the Horn Players
01101010
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Reply #56 on: March 06, 2012, 08:04:07 PM

I was a 'bit' player and played while recovering from concussions, played with a broken hand, and played with a separated shoulder.  I can't imagine what some starters endure.

Shit, I played girl's soccer, and we were expected to suck it up and play injured. I can't even imagine how much worse it must be in the MANLY MAN MAN GRR MANLY world of football, especially once you start getting into college and pro football.

Dated a girl in college who played field hockey. She gave a new meaning to tough.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Sjofn
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Reply #57 on: March 06, 2012, 08:07:32 PM

My favorite "suck it up, bitch" moment in soccer was when I had an asthma attack after running some tiny striker down. All I really needed was to come out and take my inhaler and wait a minute for it to kick in, but my coach resented even that.  why so serious?  Surely I could've lasted another 20 minutes out there and waited for the half to end, rite?


(To clarify, this was in high school soccer where there are NO LIMITS ON SUBSTITUTIONS, so all she lost was me gasping for air and playing like shit for a few minutes.)

God Save the Horn Players
Fordel
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Reply #58 on: March 06, 2012, 08:08:36 PM

Breathing is for pussies, are you a pussy Sjofn?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Sjofn
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Reply #59 on: March 06, 2012, 08:09:25 PM

ASTHMA IS ALL IN THE MIND, FORDEL

God Save the Horn Players
sigil
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Reply #60 on: March 06, 2012, 08:25:15 PM

MLS won't have it because it's owend by billionaires who will not have their product mired with some team owend by some local beer distributor or some shit.


Also,my personal vision of the timeline is that NFL has about ten more years before the lawsuits and demographics begin to make the mark. Which is why the billionaires are in MLS. NBA and MLS are your growth. Everything else is horse racing.
lamaros
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Reply #61 on: March 06, 2012, 09:01:25 PM

Back on topic:

I was under the impression that there was little you could do to stop brain injuries unless you slow the rate and speed of collision, as a helmet and so forth doesn't really do anything to stop the brain smashing against your skull when you smash into someone else.

In Australian Rules Football recently they have been trying to get on top of this by putting a few new rules in place, limiting certain types of tackling, and making it so that any played that is concussed is not allowed to return to the field of play for that game. They have also tried to institute new measures to slow down the pace of the game and reduce impact and soft tissue injuries. http://www.afl.com.au/NewsViews/TodaysNews/Features/Features/GPSData/tabid/18840/Default.aspx
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:15:25 PM by lamaros »

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #62 on: March 07, 2012, 01:30:08 AM

I thought one of the problems was that having a helmet gave you the freedom to tackle harder and in ways more likely to cause a concussion. Sort of how boxers wearing gloves makes it safer for their hands and way more dangerous for their heads.
Cyrrex
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Reply #63 on: March 07, 2012, 02:21:01 AM

Regardless, we will never go back to a state where helmets are not providing at least as much perceived protection as they are now...if for no other reason than the sport would, for the majority, become instantly unwatchable.  It isn't like boxing, where removing the gloves would actually make things instantly MORE exciting.  The game would slow down dramatically.

I, for one, have concern for the young (pre-high school) kids, but that is where my gives-a-fuck basically ends.  These guys know full well the danger they are getting into and are more than willing to take the risks.  That you are X% more likely to suffer permanent injury is not something that is going to stop very many boys and men from taking their chances, even those with little hope of making a lucrative career out of it.  The evidence is all around us.

Never, ever assume someone that short and fat has their shit together. - Schild
Fordel
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Reply #64 on: March 07, 2012, 04:00:20 AM

I'm not sure they actually DO know the risks, especially the way these players are 'groomed' for their careers. It's really not that uncommon for the coaching/training staff to basically be a young athletes entire world.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Cyrrex
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Reply #65 on: March 07, 2012, 04:05:26 AM

That excuse doesn't hold up for me.  It's like saying that you don't know the risks of smoking just because you fell asleep during health class.  Any reasonable person knows on an instinctual level that repeatedly smashing your head and body into other heads and bodies may be harmful to your well being.  They deliberately choose to ignore the risks, because it probably won't happen to them (and in the grand scheme, it probably won't).

Never, ever assume someone that short and fat has their shit together. - Schild
Fordel
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Reply #66 on: March 07, 2012, 04:12:03 AM

"Which is why we have this here Helmet for you to wear son, keep it on and you'll be FINE. No no, don't go listening to those nerdy egg-head doctors, look at me, I've played the game all my days and I ain't no mental case now am I? Now git out dere and GIVERRR"

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 10:37:33 AM

Yeah, I don't understand why you guys don't have a promotion/relegation system in football, basketball and baseball.

Because billionaires having to lose money by dropping to a lower league for putting out a shit team (or rebuilding year team) would whine and cry to lose that revenue.

Nevermore
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Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 10:43:01 AM

But wouldn't that just be the invisible hand punishing the losers?

Over and out.
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


WWW
Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 10:43:49 AM

Only if it's some other loser.

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