Predictions: 1m+ players 3 days out; how about in January 2013?

[Merusk]

The worst empire side storyline is superior to the best republic storyline.

 (I've only played each class of theirs up to 16 or so though).

 

Typical internet sentiment that bad guys are better characters and good guys are boring.  You see this everywhere about how "good guys are boring because they have no flaws and are predictable."   Stormwaltz had said something about this in one of the ME2 threads as well, so it seems to be something pervasive about the greater culture.   

One can be good and flawed, but for some reason they're always labeled as uninteresting or unrelatable.  I always relate it to bad writing that you can't make being good 'interesting.' 

Then agian, I always identified with Luke, not Han despite how "cool" he was always supposed to be. Han was an ass.  Also; Sturm was a better character than Tannis or Raistlin ever were.

[Paelos]

The problem with the "Good" Jedi Knight choices is that the delivery and lines are sometimes soooooo groan worthy.

"Wait, we can sort this out without violence." - Bear in mind I slaughtered 40 faceless goons to get here.
"Put down your weapons and surrender." - Not once has that ever worked, we only do it because we KNOW it's the good guy choice.
"I'm a Jedi, we aren't bound by passion." - No, we are bound by emotionless delivery.
"Allow me to help with this." - Because asking for payment for a hard days work is wrong.

[Sjofn]

You know, you are perfectly capable of asking for money as a jedi. Your companion might scowl at you (or give you a fistbump, depending!), but you don't lose out on light side points for it 90% of the time. It's not the Jedi's fault you refuse to break out of the stereotypic good guy lines.


EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure my Jedis say this can be resolved without further violence, which is a bit different.

[Rasix]

I lost out on light points with my Smuggler when I asked for a bribe (got no light/dark).  I still let them live! BUG!!!!!!!11!!!!

I'm finding the Smuggler questing pretty good overall and I like the vibe they're going for with him.  The general plot line is a lot more interesting than the stupid Great Hunt.  The voice acting so far is about equal. The male smuggler can be a little boring, but the tone on some of the BH options (that seem pretty innocent) can be a bit much.  "I didn't mean to go for cackling evil.. again.. damnit".

[Ingmar]

The worst empire side storyline is superior to the best republic storyline.

 (I've only played each class of theirs up to 16 or so though).

 

Typical internet sentiment that bad guys are better characters and good guys are boring.  You see this everywhere about how "good guys are boring because they have no flaws and are predictable."   Stormwaltz had said something about this in one of the ME2 threads as well, so it seems to be something pervasive about the greater culture.   

One can be good and flawed, but for some reason they're always labeled as uninteresting or unrelatable.  I always relate it to bad writing that you can't make being good 'interesting.' 

Then agian, I always identified with Luke, not Han despite how "cool" he was always supposed to be. Han was an ass.  Also; Sturm was a better character than Tannis or Raistlin ever were.

The disconnect for me was mostly about "how do you even know if you haven't played past the prologue?"

[Hayduke]

I've cancelled and tried to leave them with a concise bullet point list of issues I had with the game, but I have to say I don't hate the game.  It's just not for me I guess.  It's not go back to WoW though for me, I went cold turkey on that game years ago.  It's more like, I want to go back to fun single player games.

Whenever I try a MMO nowadays I can't shake the feeling that I have a guest pass to a small, insular prison colony.  Going back to these MMO communities is like opening a time capsule for me where gameplay and pop culture stopped advancing back in 2003.

[Venkman]

The problem with the "Good" Jedi Knight choices is that the delivery and lines are sometimes soooooo groan worthy.

"Wait, we can sort this out without violence." - Bear in mind I slaughtered 40 faceless goons to get here.
"Put down your weapons and surrender." - Not once has that ever worked, we only do it because we KNOW it's the good guy choice.
"I'm a Jedi, we aren't bound by passion." - No, we are bound by emotionless delivery.
"Allow me to help with this." - Because asking for payment for a hard days work is wrong.

This.

The problem isn't "good is boring". It's the source material. All the canon Jedi are boring one-dimensional deadpan cardboard cutouts.

[Fordel]

I've actually had plenty of people actually surrender to my Trooper. With lines like "well shit you just killed like 50 people, fuck fighting you here is what you want! D:"

[Sjofn]

I've had people surrender to my Jedi too, although usually I have to kick their ass one last time to get them to do it. 

[Kageru]

I still remember the shock when an NPC in fallout 2 actually surrendered and handed over his gun. Still killed him mind, because the story had given me enough reasons to hate his guts.

A meaningful story is going to be best suited when it's not excessively padded, allows your actions to make substantial changes to the game-world and has multiple deep branches in the path. The MMO version of a story must be padded, must be linear because content is so expensive and they're focused on fleshing out the multiple independent stories they need to encourage alts so you keep paying. How much better would it be if I got to design a character, not hamstrung by the bad latency of online gaming and need for MP balance in my powerset, and the multiple paths present in this game were branches in the story of my character. Tell the story of my progression towards power and light or darkness through my own action rather than through choices made at character select. Same for sidekick selection, planet progression and even power selection.

Now a single-player game having a "guest" slot where wife or friend can stand in for my companion, that would rock.

tl;dr. Using the MMO platform to tell a single player story is a dumb idea which Bioware have spent a huge pile of resources confirming. The best thing that could happen to the medium is if they crash and burn (though star wars fans are used to surviving on dross).

[Ingmar]

A "dumb idea" that people are overwhelmingly citing as the thing they love most about the game.

[Kageru]

For something that cost probably well over 100m they certainly should. The question is what could have been done with that money in a single-player RPG context.

[Ingmar]

The answer is probably nothing. Who is going to throw a budget that size at a single player RPG?

[Kageru]

The hope is that bioware realise they just did.

[Ingmar]

Are you actually playing the game in a guild with other people? I am starting to suspect no.

[UnSub]

The answer is probably nothing. Who is going to throw a budget that size at a single player RPG?

It would have been a financially smarter move to make KOTOR 3 - 6. All eggs not in one basket etc.

But SWOR wasn't focused on being financially smart. It was about beating Blizzard Activision & WoW.

[Ingmar]

I think the jury is most definitely still way, way out about the financial wisdom.

[Kageru]

Are you actually playing the game in a guild with other people? I am starting to suspect no.

This game doesn't even have a release date, so no.

[ajax34i]

Good side being less boring is just a matter of recording more / better one liners, which they haven't done because they rushed everything. 


They should have a lot more snarky retorts, maybe along the lines of "Yeah yeah I'll do it, I mean who else is going to?" or even the light side / dark side interrupts they had in Mass Effect where you just up and punch the guy in the middle of his speech or cut him short or whatever.  I'd love to play a Jedi who helps everyone, but talks as if everyone else is useless (which they are).  The Sith can have the "I'm surrounded by idiots; I'll kill a few and they'll learn" attitude, and the Jedi can have the "why is everyone so useless; I guess I better get to it" attitude.

[tmp]

They should have a lot more snarky retorts, maybe along the lines of "Yeah yeah I'll do it, I mean who else is going to?" or even the light side / dark side interrupts they had in Mass Effect where you just up and punch the guy in the middle of his speech or cut him short or whatever.

Consular gets quite a few of these.

- Master Jedi, what would you like to say on this great, historical occasion?
- Don't screw it up. I won't always be around to bail you out.

and my favourite bit of negotiations with mercenary warlord, which went not unlike Bruce Willis' negotiating in Fifth Element...

[Minvaren]

They should have a lot more snarky retorts, maybe along the lines of "Yeah yeah I'll do it, I mean who else is going to?" or even the light side / dark side interrupts they had in Mass Effect where you just up and punch the guy in the middle of his speech or cut him short or whatever.

Consular gets quite a few of these.

(note to self : alt #3)

[Paelos]

Are you actually playing the game in a guild with other people? I am starting to suspect no.

This game doesn't even have a release date, so no.

So you're another one of those people who didn't play the game at all, but came into a subforum to complain about it?

[Ingmar]

At first I thought it was the old "lawl you are paying to beta" joke and was like  , but I think he might just be Australian (not out there yet.)

[Kageru]

Yep.

So you're another one of those people who didn't play the game at all, but came into a subforum to complain about it?

... This is f13 right?

Whose complaining though? watching game design hit the tarmac of reality is actually my hobby.

[Samprimary]

"Put down your weapons and surrender." - Not once has that ever worked,

Spoiler alert: it's worked in SWTOR

[DraconianOne]

Typical internet sentiment that bad guys are better characters and good guys are boring. 

Not sure why you label this "internet sentiment" when it's been this way forever. Consider this list: Darth Vader, The Terminator, The Wicked Witch of The West, Norman Bates, Jack Torrance, Mr Blonde, Pennywise, Nurse Rached, Freddy Krueger, Hans Gruber, Hannibal Lecter, Roy Baty, Harry Lime, Khan... movie villains that became iconic and popular long before internet started to rule our lives.

The reason I feel that people think the Empire stories are (so far) more interesting than the Republic - or rather, the Sith stories are more interesting than the Jedi (I haven't played Agent and only got five levels into BH) - is because they're able to have much more fun. Irrespective of characters, flawed or otherwise, the Jedi stories seem quite bland, dry and seemingly predictable. "Hello Padawan. Today we'd like you to investigate an issue and resolve it peacefully if you can. After that, come back here and we'll sit on the veranda with a nice cup of camomile tea."  But the Sith stories are full of in-your-face drama from the off - petty rivalries, politcal machinations, betrayals and backstabbing - not to mention a cast full of batshit insane characters. "So, apprentice - today we're going to shoot some tequilas and then go fuck some shit up! Later on there's this guy who's been pissing me off so we'll go ruin his day and after that, hookers and blow!"

Drama comes from conflict and the Sith stories are oh so very full of conflict. Which reponse is going to seem more interesting? Your Jedi Consular saying "The Force will guide me to a solution." or your Sith Inquisitor saying "Khem Val - can you eat him? What about him? Could you eat those two both at the same time? Do you want ketchup?"

Mind you, I'm playing Smuggler at the moment and am loving it - although it all fell into place at the end of Chapter One what the story was. I have a strong suspicion I know how it's going to pan out and don't know whether I'll be disappointed or pleased with it. Also, I quite liked the subtle nature of the JC story on Tython when I played it in Beta so I'm actually looking forward to playing that again.

[Merusk]

Typical internet sentiment that bad guys are better characters and good guys are boring. 

Not sure why you label this "internet sentiment" when it's been this way forever. Consider this list: Darth Vader, The Terminator, The Wicked Witch of The West, Norman Bates, Jack Torrance, Mr Blonde, Pennywise, Nurse Rached, Freddy Krueger, Hans Gruber, Hannibal Lecter, Roy Baty, Harry Lime, Khan... movie villains that became iconic and popular long before internet started to rule our lives.

If by "Forever" you mean, "all the stuff I've been exposed to and media has crammed into my subconscious,"  sure.

Odysseus, Gilgamesh, Siddhartha, Perseus, Huck Finn, Ed Stark, Edmond Dantes.  Good guys but flawed.  Or are you saying there's no drama in their stories?

No, the internet has a distinct culture that feeds on the bad guy being cool and anti-social behavior being what it takes to raise social ranks.  I'm surprised you even think that's not the case.

[Lantyssa]

When you're writing trite dialog, it's much easier to make the bad guys interesting.

Merusk list: good literature.

DraconianOne list: pop culture.

[DraconianOne]

If by "Forever" you mean, "all the stuff I've been exposed to and media has crammed into my subconscious,"  sure.

 

When you're writing trite dialog, it's much easier to make the bad guys interesting.

Merusk list: good literature.

DraconianOne list: pop culture.

Because there are no interesting bad guys in literature and never have been, right? 

[Modern Angel]

What does this have to do with BIOWARE writing shitty good guys in SWTOR? This isn't about meta-trends; it's about most of the writing being subpar with good delivery.

Or, restated:

When you're writing trite dialog, it's much easier to make the bad guys interesting.

[Kageru]

"Good" does tend to be more restrictive, especially for the narrow niche in which Jedi have been cast... I mean they were incredibly boring in the movies.

I tend to prefer pragmatic, efficient and not homicidal (without reason)... The Shepard / Bounty-hunter version of "I'm good because look at the nut-cases on the other side". Actually Samuel Vimes is pretty much another model of good but interesting.

Of course another part of good is them undergoing trials and growth on the path to becoming good, but since you start the game as a fully fledged X that story can't really be told. Sort of like how boring the original star wars would have been if Luke already had his light-saber and force powers at the start of the movie.

[Amaron]

They could of made the "Good Guy" stories far more interesting if they'd used the companions more as well.   Restricting them to occasional one-liners in class quests was a big mistake.   Doc from the JK story is clearly a character but his presence in the story is pretty lack luster after you pick him up.

[01101010]

They could of made the "Good Guy" stories far more interesting if they'd used the companions more as well.

I shall do the customary 

[Lantyssa]

I am surprised how little the companions figure into the story.  They're mostly along as a buff in PvE.  They need huge individual arcs.

[Sky]

I am surprised how little the companions figure into the story.  They're mostly along as a buff in PvE.  They need huge individual arcs.

Would be a lot of work for little gain, comparatively.

Lot of writing and voice work on the hopes that you're using that particular companion in any given conversation/arc. I didn't get a mission from any companion other than Mako, because it just didn't make any sense to have anyone but Mako along with me.

I would have liked to have done some stuff with Blizz and Torian, but whenever I pulled them out I pretty instantly wanted Mako back (for the gameplay portions).