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Author Topic: Cipher Agent 9: The self-destructing thread (or IA asscatery)  (Read 21945 times)
Ghambit
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on: December 19, 2011, 10:21:21 AM

So everyone else has a damned theorycrafting thread, IA's need lovin too (all like, 3 of us).  why so serious?

Anyways, I ended up choosing Sniper over Operative only because of the "nuke from orbit" ability.  The engineering tree also intrigued me for its aoe potential (swtor loves grouped mobs) and the way it plays into Cunning. (note: the 1st thing to learn with any IA is that Cunning is your main stat since the beta patch that eliminated Aim as a viable Sniper/Marksmanship option).

It seems a bit slow to start since you dont get your best probes until later in the game, even moreso in the engi. tree (plasma probe).  But with any aoe specced ranged toon, the dmg. ramps up pretty fast once you start getting deeper into the tree.

I intend to pretty fully go engi. until endgame, at which point I'll probably move to lethality, which seems to be the 'hybrid' tree for those wanting a decent amount of gadgetry dmg. w/o saccing gunnery stuff.  I may change my mind though as a full-on marksman seems a pretty relaxing build, whereas engis. get kinda busy.  Depends on playstyle.  If 'control' is your thing you're gonna want the engineer or lethality tree.

Aggro?  Get used to stealing it.  This is why they give you Kaliyo who is pretty much a tank with grenades and a gnasty overcharged blaster.  (boy she looks the sexy in that heavy armor).  Send her in 1st ideally (i've yet to put her in sniper mode) whilst you line up laze and ambush on the primary, then pop your probes and nades.  In elite fights within a PC grp. it seems you'll have to get used to "cover-tanking" at times if you're in a dps-weak grp.  Make sure your healers know this or you're dead; and rely on those CCs, especially the aoe knockback for melee threats.

I cant theorycraft much more than this yet as I'm only lvl 19, but I'm definitely enjoying the class.  VERY diverse playstyle, which I tend to like.  The animations are nicely varied (the vibroknife attacks are some of the best in the game).  Newbs who've never seen an IA fight close are all "wtf was that" once they see a giant blade sticking out of a mobs chest.

One thing I'm curious on is midgame CC options on elites, which tend to be immune to some if not most CC (the vibroknife stun seems to work usually though).  Interrogation probe gets a movement debuff that would be nice if it works on tough melee baddies.  Undecided if I want to spend the points on it till I figure this out.

Discuss.  (secretly of course)   DRILLING AND MANLINESS


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Nebu
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Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 10:25:33 AM

My sniper is approaching 30 (marksman tree).  I have a serious love/hate relationship with this class.  

Love: love the big numbers.  Love the ability to drop squishy targets in a hurry.  Love the ability to cc from range.  Love my spaceship!

Hate: That I'm a turret in pvp (I prefer a stick-and-move playstyle), hate that I always draw aggro and lack a detaunt ability, hate that I can't find good gear for my tank companion, and hate that all I seem to find are trench coats to wear.  

I'm going to have to adjust my playstyle in pvp significantly.  If I can find a quiet place to hide, I can get some big damage totals.  Unfortunately, my server is Empire dominated so I get Huttball a lot.  That map makes hiding a challenge.  

Note: The operative in my guild routinely outdamages and outkills me in pvp.  He's much more mobile and gets some self-heals.  I'm starting to consider a respec.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ghambit
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Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 10:35:18 AM

Yah, the whole 1-shot 1-kill thing can get a bit boring at times which is why I went more gadget oriented.  Also, you cant miss with a nade.   awesome, for real  (actually this is represented statwise)  Nothing worse then lining up a laze+ambush/snipe and missing.

Nebu, you might wanna take those points in 'calculated pursuit' (in the eng. tree)  if u want to move around more.  I didnt think I'd ever need it but it does indeed help move around, e.g. you can 'snipe' on the move w/o being in cover. I'd definitely take it if I was a pvp marksman...  notsomuch if I'm busy dotting (in lethality) or tossing probes and nades.  Imagine popping cover for sec, getting 'calc pursuit,' and then maintaining a 35m distance as you snipe away...  hit leg-shot, flashbang, whatever... rinse, wash repeat.  Tough strat., but could work with practice and cooldown refresh abilitities.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 10:38:17 AM by Ghambit »

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

I don't think you can respec your Advanced class, that's a re-roll. I'm currently playing operative. I enjoy the two different modes of play. Though in a lot of ways, it reminds me of a LOTR Burgler, rather than a Wow Rouge.

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Ghambit
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Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 10:41:38 AM

Yah, I'm starting to wish I would've tried Operative out during beta to get a feel for it.  Stealth-healer, nice.  I've never been much of a healer though, so I stayed away (plus I dont like the armor they wear).  How busy is the resource mngt?  Sounds like fun.

Speaking of which, I dont think I've even seen an Operative in my groups yet.  hmmm

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 11:25:17 AM

So far (lvl 27) I see that the class is grossly  OP in pvp while somewhat gimped for solo play in pve .The pvp -well the ranged damage and stupid amount of cc you  have is only topped by sorc (equally stupid damage combined with best heals). PvE - compared to other classes you seem not to have a 30 sec+ cc option (except for droids which are not that many). That CC allows classes like sorc or assassin solo heroic 2+ with ease. As a sniper I have no other option but to find a group even for measly heroics 2
Nebu
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Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 11:29:03 AM

As a sniper I have no other option but to find a group even for measly heroics 2

I'm glad that you said this.  I was starting to think that I sucked because all of the people I play with playing operative, sorc, and BH are flying through these missions with ease.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ingmar
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Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 11:31:41 AM

Heroic 2s after the first couple planets get hard-ish for everyone. BHs probably have a big advantage over others in that they get their healer companion right off the bat.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 12:05:58 PM

Heroic 2s after the first couple planets get hard-ish for everyone. BHs probably have a big advantage over others in that they get their healer companion right off the bat.

Well considering with some trickery sith assassin was able to solo heroic4s its not equally hardish :) Overall though sniper is pretty fun and I dont regret it .
Sky
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Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 01:03:06 PM

operative, sorc, and BH are flying through these missions with ease.  
Op and Sorc can heal (with spec) and BH is a tank with a healer. So...yeah  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

But 'with ease' is 'grass is greener'. They'll still throw in stuff like a double gold encounter or quad silver with a gold or whatever that will put a crimp in the festivities. And I wasn't able to solo a level 22 champion with my level 25 BH on NS (just hanging out in an alley, non-instanced). I'm pure tank talents, so I just didn't have the dps output and he wasn't using channels I could interrupt, so it was a bit frustrating.
Sjofn
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Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 01:11:06 PM

My gunslinger (smuggler version of sniper) is a squishy bitch, I find myself wishing she was the one duoing with Ingmar. I skip all the heroic 2's on her now, it's not worth the pain.  why so serious?

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Sky
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Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 01:20:30 PM

I mostly skip them, too. I got tired of trying each one out to see if I could solo it with Mako or nagging someone to come help me all the time. Also, most of the folks I was working group content with last week are now out of my level bracket  why so serious?
Nevermore
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Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 01:22:57 PM

My gunslinger (smuggler version of sniper) is a squishy bitch, I find myself wishing she was the one duoing with Ingmar. I skip all the heroic 2's on her now, it's not worth the pain.  why so serious?

Yeah, my Gunslinger will be duoing with a tank specced Trooper.  On the other hand, my Shadow is a cheating cheater who cheats.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

Over and out.
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Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 01:30:33 PM

My sage + Ing's JK are pretty faceroll. But I was doing shit easily on my sage solo in beta, too.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

My manquisitor is an assassin, and of course I just learned he doesn't get a healing friend until REALLY LATE, I am disappoint.


Speaking of companions, are you IAs just sticking with initial tanky girl? I only HAVE Corso (ranged tank) so I don't have a choice, I'm just wondering if there's a different combination you guys were finding worked better.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 01:32:06 PM by Sjofn »

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Dark_MadMax
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Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 11:59:45 PM

So I got to lvl 32 and tried different tree (the dot one). It is kinda interesting spamming corrosive grenades ,especially in huttball - basically  if you hate cover mechanics that might be the way . But it also makes appreciate marskmanship tree - all those defence  bonuses you get there for entering cover. And insta snipe shots, combined with "followtrough". The combo of marksmanship tree is cover->snipe, exit cover , use follow trough and frag grenade on the move and use the combo again in next 6 seconds (that will re-gain defence bonuse )

Also the amount of abilties overflowed 2 full bars and spilled into 3d. Which is ridicolous and I am out of hotkeys to bind. The rift-like macro system is desperately needed. Considering many are part of a chain  that could cut down amount of buttons at least in half

And the class is really strong in pvp - large amount of CC, strong burst (both close and at range). But for PvE you lack pve cc (long one) , you have no defence, your companion falls of as  a tank/dps and you have no heals. Also being "dps" only -well if you want get flashpoint going better organize it yourself .


Overall I find the class pretty fun and cover mechanics interesting , but the quirks make me long for more faceroll sith assassin
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:14:16 AM by Dark_MadMax »
Ghambit
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Reply #15 on: December 24, 2011, 11:07:09 PM

I do believe they need to lower the cooldown time for stun grenade and/or vibroknife cc.  Both of those take way too long to refresh.  Combine the two and you've got like a 15sec cc, but then you're shit outta luck for like 30+secs.  This is a partial reason I went into the engi. tree.

Lethality looks sexy for DoT and then LOS hiding.  Dont much need cc at that point.

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Ghambit
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Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 11:53:08 AM

-Good workaround for the lack of cc:  craft/buy some stun grenades.  They'll give you another 10secs or so of cc time.  Also, "leg shot" is effectively a cc against melee mobs.

-Built my 1st matrix cube (lvl 24 end/cunning) at lvl 29 today.  Was fun building it, but since IA rely on Cunning you've got to have 2 yellow shards to build a useful one.  This means getting the +cunning and yellow from Nar Shadaa to go along with the yellow found from a previous planet; and a green.  It's a bit tricky to find and grab, but not the worst.  It's a lvl 31 zone though which is lawl considering the cube is only lvl 24 and the next one is at 32.
The +end and +cunning from the cube translate to about 200hp, 60dmg, and 6 bonus dmg. respectively.  Sure, you could pop another crafted/bought END relic in there, but you'd have to pop the boost every <2mins and you'd be 40 secs w/o a crit boost, since if they mod the same stat you'll have a 20 sec. GCD to wait for too.

Be interesting to run the numbers on 5% crit vs 60+dmg though.  It's possible running 2 activateable relics (say one for crit, one for power) instead of a cube/relic will translate into more dmg.

Anyways, if any Cunning bastards want to run through the necessary datacron 'quests' to get the cube lemme know ingame (Cyfer) and I'll walk you through.  If you're less than lvl 29 or so you'll have to bring a friend regardless.  Even with the zone being all droids (slice droid ftw).

Between the matrix and bought implants you should be a fairly twinked out, aggro-grabbin bish by now.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 11:56:27 AM by Ghambit »

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Wolf
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Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 11:47:27 PM

Quote
Be interesting to run the numbers on 5% crit vs 60+dmg though.  It's possible running 2 activateable relics (say one for crit, one for power) instead of a cube/relic will translate into more dmg.

How exactly do you purpose running the numbers without a combatlog?  Ohhhhh, I see. Plus there's NO information on this game. You don't know how your abilities scale with attack power, so there's no way to make a co-relation with crit. IA is a crit class, judging by the talents, but that's what the devs think. If snipe and followthrough scale well with AP, something above 0,8, it'll probably end up as top secondary stat. Plus I'm pretty sure there's a pretty hard space-haste cap - the one that makes your snipe take exactly as long as the GCD, but I don't know how much the ambush-snipe-snipe talent gives me, if that's enough, if I should get 10 or 500 more. So just pew and enjoy, crunching numbers doesn't work when you don't know 2/3rds of the numbers :)

My Sniper/MM is lvl 32 and I'm playing a trooper at the moment since I got disappointed with how the story went. Plus you're stuck with Kaliyo, which I find very annoying. Basically as a Sniper/MM you have to play with a tank, otherwise you're tanking and you're squishy. I tried playing a bit with bugguy, but it just doesn't work out when a yellow mob is involved. I cheated and looked what other companions I'm getting along the way and my other tank is even evil-er than Kaliyo, so I have to learn to live with the fact I'll be getting nowhere with my companions.

Mechanics - you can drop 2/3rds of your skills and not lose any productivity. At the moment I'm only using snipe, ambush, explode-o probe, space-killshot and followthrough. It's plenty enough to spend your energy and you'll be spending a lot of time spamming auto attacks so you don't drop below 5 regen. If you need to ae, grenade cd lines up nicely with space-volley, so you can spam pretty nicely as long as the mobs are relatively gathered. I can't wait to get the melee tank, since she'll gather them up much better. Utility wise she doesn't have _that_ much control, space-aoe blind, space-gouge and a droid CC, or am I missing something? Entrench is very nice for stunning, charging mobs though and I can easily pull off of Kalyio when I want to balance damage intake, so the shield probe has been nice.

Soling 2s is relatively easy - you run in, let kalyio pull - burn 1 or 2 mobs depending on the pull, die, res, repeat. I've soloed most 2s that way, it's annoying, but finding a group has been hellish for me. I've spent entire planets without seeing another person. That's actually the biggest thing, getting groups as a pure is a bitch, since people don't care and 2 tank/2 heal dungeons. Takes twice as long? Doesn't matter. People just don't care that you outperform other DPS by 50 or more percent. That's probably not helped by the masses of snipers/gunslingers that just don't understand how energy works, burn through in the first 5-6 shots and just stand around spamming auto attack for the rest of the fight.

I wish they removed "situational" cover. I've had one situation where I've rolled across a whole room to go take cover in some fire.  swamp poop

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Phred
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Reply #18 on: January 11, 2012, 01:01:25 AM


I wish they removed "situational" cover. I've had one situation where I've rolled across a whole room to go take cover in some fire.  swamp poop

You must have missed it then cause you already can. Go into keybinds and bind the key you currently use for cover to cover in place and you'll never roll for cover again, you just drop wherever you stand.
caladein
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Reply #19 on: January 11, 2012, 01:11:42 AM

I cheated and looked what other companions I'm getting along the way and my other tank is even evil-er than Kaliyo, so I have to learn to live with the fact I'll be getting nowhere with my companions.

At least in my case, I get along much better with our second tank than our first (can't use them because itemization is stupid, but we get along well!).  Even if you somehow get a constant stream of -1/-6s, it's still very inexpensive to get a companion up to about 6k affection or so.

I wish they removed "situational" cover. I've had one situation where I've rolled across a whole room to go take cover in some fire.  swamp poop

Use "Crouch" instead of "Take Cover" when you don't want to roll into natural cover.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Wolf
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Reply #20 on: January 11, 2012, 01:48:58 AM

does the crouch work with everything? Change my bar, give me a cover screen, can pulse out of it, entrench, etc?

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
caladein
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Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 01:55:43 AM

Yes.  The only difference is whether it tries to find natural cover first or not before dropping you in place.

Edit: You can still take advantage of natural cover if you Crouch, as that's all based off of line-of-sight and not what ability you used.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Njal
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Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 07:47:31 AM

At 36 (operative) on Hoth I cheesed my way into getting Raina (Ensign somethingorother) A 2 pistol wielding dpser. I had been using Kaliyo pretty exclusively but I like Raina better she puts out enough damage to keep aggro off me except when I want it and she's not too squishy. She's more of a rah rah empire type but she lets me be a goody two shoes without complaint so far.

I worked up an assassin to 45 and then tried operative out on a lark and haven't played my assassin since. I have more fun in pvp and pve. I'm using lethality and can't wait for the top ability which makes my dots do more damage. Cull is also awesome although it takes some setup. Basically it does extra damage for every poison effect on the target which is internal and thus only tanks get any resistance to it.
Nebu
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Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 07:51:07 AM

At level 40 you'll get Dr. Loken, a healer companion.  He makes the game SO much easier the last 10 levels.  It makes me wonder why we didn't get access to him sooner.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Njal
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Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 07:55:58 AM

I got Loken at 34 fwiw. He doesn't seem to heal enough to keep me up tho. Probably my stupid playstyle or something. In tough encounters I play healer and stunner until I can't keep my companion up any more. Usually even gold star are down to 20%  by then and I can finished them off by kiting if all else fails.
Nebu
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Reply #25 on: January 11, 2012, 08:00:04 AM

I got Loken at 34 fwiw. He doesn't seem to heal enough to keep me up tho. Probably my stupid playstyle or something. In tough encounters I play healer and stunner until I can't keep my companion up any more. Usually even gold star are down to 20%  by then and I can finished them off by kiting if all else fails.

1) Turn off all of his dps abilities.

2) Gear him up as well as possible.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
kildorn
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Reply #26 on: January 11, 2012, 08:24:48 AM

He should be the same as the other healers. Which is to say that turning off his damage abilities won't improve his healing much, his large heals are on cooldowns/debuff you. The only thing you need to do is make sure he's in his heal stance to lower the cooldowns, and disable his channeled mez in some fights (they flip the fuck out on CC immune mobs and just spam their mez while you die)
Ingmar
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Reply #27 on: January 11, 2012, 11:09:56 AM

Even in his DPS stance my healer on my JK seems to prioritize healing. It may just be a gear thing.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Ghambit
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Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 02:33:05 PM

Anyone tried going tank-sniper/op? (specifically up the engineer tree).  I keep seeing gear that gives you either lotsa cunning or lotsa end (patron vs. skill?).  Seems to me like they're trying to say something here.  Given we get a heal-comp and a deeps comp I've been tempted to consider keeping 2 sets of oranges come 40... one for tank and one for deeps.  I've seen an assassin (phayde) in light end. armor tank way better than Kaliyo so I figure an engineer should do just as well with shield probe, evasion, ballistic shield, etc.  Coupled with an interrogation probe that heals and gets 2 immediate cooldowns it might be viable.

Against melee it's definitely an option I'd say, with legshot and other movement debuffs.

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Ingmar
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Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 05:10:18 PM

I don't think you would be able to tank anything in group content, really. You have no threat tools, no shield chance, etc. etc. etc.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
eldaec
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Reply #30 on: January 17, 2012, 11:47:50 PM

The assassin was probably dark spec, with 150% armour buff, shield buff, and lifetaps out of their ass.

Light vs Heavy armour makes less difference than you'd think.

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Reply #31 on: January 18, 2012, 12:24:55 AM

So after they broke the number one rule of storytelling in the start of chapter two, I spent a lot of time with a consular and got my BH to 50. I went back to the agent, because it really does have a nice looking ship and it's a lot more fun in pvp than my BH for some reason. I am less annoyed with the particulars of what they did to the character/storyline after finishing chapter 2, but it is still crummy storytelling to have a plot device like that.

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Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 09:19:53 AM

I did like the reveal at the end though. Overall I thought the story was good not great but the aftermath was a bit meh.
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Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 07:47:37 PM

Hit 50 today and the story ending was not as strong as it should have been.

Nebu
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Reply #34 on: January 26, 2012, 07:16:41 AM

So, I want to solicit some opinions on the sniper/gunslinger class.  My sniper hit 50 about a week after the game released (I got a lot of play in during head-start) and I've been experimenting with all three trees.  My estimations:

1) Marksman (left tree) seems very PvE and single target burst geared.  It's probably the easiest to play well and has some pretty good energy management, but boss fights can really require you to pace yourself.  

2) Engineering (center tree) is much more mobile and focuses more heavily on AE damage.  While this is fun for killing trash and getting some impressive damage numbers in PvP, I find it to lack punch.

3) Lethality (right, pvp tree) offers mobility, utility, and damage but is an energy hog.  Using a debuff, dot, poison grenade, and cull leaves me with about 40% power and PAINFULLY slow regen.  The class is great for pvp as you get an AE snare, an extra purge, and damage that sneaks up on people (lots of solid numbers rather than one BIG number from Marksman).  This is my preferred tree, but I find that I'm constantly out of power.  In pve, I find this spec limiting in that power is a problem and I can't often use the AE's for fear of waking mezzed mobs.  

Has anyone played with hybrid specs?  What results have you had?

Thanks!

Current spec: 31 Marks, 5 eng, 5 lethality.  Been playing hard mode flashpoints and alts recently.




"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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