Pre-release thread discussion

[Nebu]

Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.

It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.

[caladein]

Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.

It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.

That's not what I understand everyone else means by "target of target".  You're referring to "pass through targeting" or macro conditionals that do similar functions.

[Nebu]

Target of target allows a player to see the target of their target.  You target the tank/main assist and their target becomes your target.  I'm fine with target of target if it allows you to see what an enemy/mob is targeting though.   It's one of many add ons that allow for lazy gameplay (IMO)

[kildorn]

A combat log is pretty much the only way to know shit is working/isn't working. The beta weekend I had a number of instances where my companion charged a mob and died, with the only visible display in the UI being two hits for ~500 against his ~4,000 health. Now either something hit him for more than that and didn't display properly, or something was bugged to shit. I don't know, because I can't look at the log and even see what damage type he was taking.

And Nebu: target of target has nothing to do with assist training. You may be thinking of smart targeting features, where you target the tank and hit an attack skill and it hits his target (CoH did this, for example). Assist buttons serve that function regardless of target of target.. Target of Target lets you know who the assist target IS, and lets you know what a mob is aiming at when they do strange shit like "will randomly target some asshole, use ability, then retarget someone else"

Moreover, if you allow smart casting with target of target, it lets healers do things like help DPS and still heal without mouseover healing UIs. Asking me to run around shooting the boss then retargeting and healing all day is just.. painful.

[Nebu]

And Nebu: target of target has nothing to do with assist training. You may be thinking of smart targeting features, where you target the tank and hit an attack skill and it hits his target (CoH did this, for example). Assist buttons serve that function regardless of target of target.. Target of Target lets you know who the assist target IS, and lets you know what a mob is aiming at when they do strange shit like "will randomly target some asshole, use ability, then retarget someone else"

These games simply need to allow for dual targeting.  A healing target and a separate, self-selected damage target.  Problem solved.

Didn't Vanguard do this years ago?

[caladein]

Target of target allows a player to see the target of their target.  You target the tank/main assist and their target becomes your target.  I'm fine with target of target if it allows you to see what an enemy/mob is targeting though.   It's one of many add ons that allow for lazy gameplay (IMO)

The bolded part isn't the case without targeting that unit manually (in a game without pass through targeting), leaving you without knowledge of what the main assist is now targeting.  (Assuming you don't have a focus/secondary stored target and its target somewhere in the interface.)

[kildorn]

It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Target of Target is just UI information, nothing else. Smart Targeting is just trying to make the UI a bit more functional. SWTOR already has a bit of it (casting a heal when targeting a hostile heals YOU for example, it doesn't just tell you invalid target)

[Nebu]

It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.

[Sjofn]

Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.

It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.

Because that is totally different from making an "assist <main assist>" macro like you could WAY BACK in DAoC.

[Nebu]

Because that is totally different from making an "assist <main assist>" macro like you could WAY BACK in DAoC.

I hated that too and often bitched about it on the forums.

[kildorn]

It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.

I went to 30 and didn't know it either. I was raging hard about it until someone posted some blog about how to turn it on.

[kildorn]

Assist _____ buttons are mostly there so when you pull the group of identical mobs you aren't sitting there figuring out which one the tank wants you on. Icons make this a bit better, but in some pulls you still wind up just staring at a clump of icons trying to find the one you want so you can start attacking.

Target tank, press F just makes things easier.

[Sjofn]

It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.

I went to 30 and didn't know it either. I was raging hard about it until someone posted some blog about how to turn it on.

It's still shitty compared to, like, just having a goddamn assist key.

[Merusk]

It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

It's WoW's "Focus Targeting" so you've got a permanent alt target in addition to whatever you're tab-targeting.

[Morfiend]

Tab targeting is key for me. I am a fiend on that tab key, and I get frustrated quickly when it doesnt work well.

[Evildrider]

Tab targeting is key for me. I am a fiend on that tab key, and I get frustrated quickly when it doesnt work well.

That's the only thing I missed but you can set, under options, the ability for you to switch to the nearest target when your current one is dead.

[Sky]

I found that setting in the turkey beta, went much better than the 367 weekend.

[Ingmar]

TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

Who needs that crap? And yes, I used all those...but really these tools should be reminders of a time to be ashamed off.
I mean threat meters, analyzing combat logs, proc tracking...really. I used to be a proud warrior leader of the 2nd best raid group on Argent Dawn-EU and Field Marshall during the pre-Arathi Basin days, when it still meant something. But I have grown up since.

Poopsocking is not a badge of honor.

None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.

[koro]

Speaking as someone who plans on being a career tank in TOR, I find all five things on that list pretty much essential and have all been things I've sorely missed after about 90 levels stuffed into a tank-specced Jedi Guardian.

Can I make do without them? Sure, and I have. It's sure as hell not fun, though, and it makes figuring out how to be a better player a lot more of a chore than it needs to be.

[Sjofn]

I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

CLEARLY I AM A THREAT SAVANT

[Evildrider]

I had omen but never had it running.

[Nevermore]

The only thread meter I ever needed was the mob turning and running at me (if I wasn't tanking) or the mob turning and running away from me (if I was).

[caladein]

The only thread meter I ever needed was the mob turning and running at me (if I wasn't tanking) or the mob turning and running away from me (if I was).

That's useful in a game where the majority of mobs are melee like WoW.  That's not the case in SWTOR.

[Fordel]

I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

CLEARLY I AM A THREAT SAVANT

Not everyone had threat drops sadly. My moonkin was basically one crit away from pulling aggro in almost every fight in TBC. It's just half the time I could tank the mob nearly as well as the tank 

[Sjofn]

Yeah but if, say, Ingmar crit on his double lightning bolt or whatever, it quickly became obvious this was the case and no amount of threat meter would change that (and it wouldn't stop him from doing it either, because elemental shamans were hilarious like that back then). It just was never, ever a big deal from where I was sitting.

[Simond]

Speaking as someone who plans on being a career tank in TOR, I find all five things on that list pretty much essential and have all been things I've sorely missed after about 90 levels stuffed into a tank-specced Jedi Guardian.

Can I make do without them? Sure, and I have. It's sure as hell not fun, though, and it makes figuring out how to be a better player a lot more of a chore than it needs to be.

Someone else gets it!

Poor UI makes tanking more difficult than it needs to be = even less people tanking = good luck putting together a PUG (either as a DPS being unable to find a tank, or even as a tank having to deal with idiot DPS going full burn, pulling aggro and then bitching about 'fail tank' and dropping group). At least you should be able to quickly queue up replacements in the dungeon find....oh, wait.

WoW has all that UI stuff and has made holding aggro essentially effortless and they still have to bribe people into tanking PUGs. I wonder how many people will still claim that they don't need all those tools when at L50 they're fruitlessly sat LFG for hours on end in the fleet?


E: PvP assist trains? Who gives a fuck? The sooner people finally realise that PvP in DIKU-types is always going to be. at best. a sideshow then the better off everyone will be.

[Kageru]

I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

I don't think threat meters are for tanks as much as DPS. And if you are trying to optimize your DPS it can easily become a question of how close you can cut to the aggro of the tank. So a threat meter allowed average players to come closer to elite players in terms of doing more DPS and causing fewer wipes. It's part of making raiding more accessible without trivializing it for the elite.

Mind you, I think the whole system is repulsive and an un-enticing end game. But if SWTOR is pretty much going to present exactly the same form of end-game it should be looking carefully at and considering WoW's discoveries and outcomes.

[Lantyssa]

Poor UI makes tanking more difficult than it needs to be = even less people tanking = good luck putting together a PUG (either as a DPS being unable to find a tank, or even as a tank having to deal with idiot DPS going full burn, pulling aggro and then bitching about 'fail tank' and dropping group). At least you should be able to quickly queue up replacements in the dungeon find....oh, wait.

For me, all these UI crutches make tanking less fun.  I use Sjofn and Nevermore's methods.

It's not like ranged mobs are new, either, so replace blaster with caster and shut them down or draw their attention.  Cripes, the first flashpoint bosses require more thinking than most WoW leveling dungeons for a tank, and I never had a group that couldn't understand the fight after a thirty second explaination.

[Amaron]

Seriously, the way some of you talk about the UI it sounds like it raped your eyeballs.

It's not always a problem with the UI itself.  Sometimes it can be something like you are watching the UI instead of playing the game.   That's not a problem with the UI per se but it is a problem that mods can easily solve.

[calapine]

None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.

Well, usually I don't post when drunk, because, well...
BUT
I don't want to pass up the opportunity to tell the "We need those tools" people that you are wrong.
Are you playing Skyrim with a combat log?

[Merusk]

That's a terrible analogy and you'll realize it when you're sober.

[calapine]

No, it's not. All those things break the 4th wall (I think thats the term.)

Edit: I dare you to prove me wrong. 

[Ghambit]

I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.

[Arinon]

I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.

I agree, but I never understood why threat is always just assigned as the tank's responsibility by both the community and most devs.  It should be the job of DPS.  They generally don't have as much shit to do so make them responsible for keeping threat under control.  Take threat out of the hands of tanks by making it basically a flat line for them somehow.

[tmp]

It's not always a problem with the UI itself.  Sometimes it can be something like you are watching the UI instead of playing the game.   That's not a problem with the UI per se but it is a problem that mods can easily solve.

If the actual problem is you play the UI rather than the game outside it i don't think it's really something 'mods can easily solve' unless you make mods that basically play that game themselves. But i'd say that's not solving anything but just replacing one problem with another.