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Title: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2011, 11:20:00 AM
Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 27, 2011, 11:30:39 AM
I had some tempered enthusiasm with no expectations beyond "it's a diku" and "it's going to be very WoW-like" going into the beta, and the first build I was in got me surprisingly excited for what was to come. Since then I've gotten less and less enthusiastic about the state the game will be in come release. The stories I enjoyed, the questing I enjoyed, the combat I'm okay with. The game just seems to lack any real "soul", I hate the UI, and there seem to be too many Ghostcrawlers at the helm to make me anything but worried about the long-term health of the game.

If it's still trucking along really well in 4-6 months, I'll give it a go.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: jakonovski on November 27, 2011, 11:31:16 AM
I didn't even try to get into the beta because they always make me less likely to play the real game (killed Rift for me). The whole thing seems a bit underwhelming from all the Youtube videos, but a Star Wars Christmas is still a powerful enough Force that I'll buy it. Assuming their servers can handle the launch.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 27, 2011, 11:35:19 AM
I for one am looking forward to our new Jedi/Sith overlords.  I look forward to getting into the story, exploring the world and having a good time in a sci-fi setting, the latter being one of the most attractive features in this market of "just how many different ways can we draw an elf?".

That said, this game could still go the way of WAR; all hype pre-release and abysmal follow-up post.  I like to think that a game house like BW would be able to overcome the pitfalls that Mythic fell into, esp. considering this is a PvE-centric game, but only time can truly tell.  I do feel that if they stay committed to having voice work and cinematics done for everything even post-release, that alone helps justify a monthly sub of $15 (which I still find surprising even at this point...I'm shocked that EA wouldn't inflate the price to $20+ because of the all the voice acting and server logistics involved with this whole thing).

I do hope they get right to tackling performance issues and really optimizing the client post-release, as they'll have an entire smorgasbord of computer profiles to collect data from and get things ironed out.  Along with that, I hope the first couple patches don't take the Rift approach by just catering to the content burners and adding only end-game stuff.  Flesh out the leveling experience some more, add more fluff to space combat stuffs and work on the creature comforts.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 27, 2011, 11:52:56 AM
I went from thinking it's awful, awful dogshit to liking it to being pretty neutral. There are times I have fun with it but there's never been OH GOD I MUST PLAY stuff going on. I get that with strategy games, for chrissake.

But I'm leaning buy, because I think it'll be fun for a couple months with a duo, but I've got some serious reservations about its long-term viability as a primary game for tons of people. Note that this doesn't mean disaster; it's going to chew through wallets worldwide. But I just don't see it being the long-term behemoth that some folks think. I really think the novelty of the voice acting and cutscenes is going to wear thin a lot more quickly than people think. If it had novel mechanics, or even MODERN mechanics in MMO terms, it wouldn't be such a big deal but there's some awfully thin gruel in that department.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on November 27, 2011, 11:55:36 AM
I'm disappointed. The stories are good and engaging to me, but that only tells you that I like Bioware (other) games. The diku part is bland, generic, ugly and boring. I am not canceling the preorder cause I want to follow a few stories to the end, but I'll try to make it into the first month so not to pay the monthly fee.

As I said, I can't see anything that justifies paying a subscription for a single player game with a lousy WoW clone glued in to provide below-par coop.

SWTOR is a huge wasted opportunity. Damn.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 27, 2011, 12:12:24 PM
But I just don't see it being the long-term behemoth that some folks think.

Without even playing beta this has been my suspicion. Star Wars will sell a lot of boxes, but it sets an upper limit as well as a lower limit. It's a barrier for a lot of the sorts of non-traditional gamer who got sucked into wow.

Having pre-CoX/EQ2 design just affirms that.

Still looking forward to it as Kotor 3 through 10. It can't possibly be less enjoyable than kotor 2. But long term this is no EVE.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 27, 2011, 12:19:47 PM
Love it, beta weekends confirmed it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 27, 2011, 12:37:31 PM
Beta just confirmed I knew what I'd be getting. 

I dislike some of their decisions (most that follow the established MMO formula), but like the Bioware touches quite a bit.  I'll stay for the story, and put up with the rest.  I may even end up liking the rest, who knows; I did not put a lot of time into the beta.

I'm not super hyped or anything, but I think I'll have fun.  I may be over the whole MMO thing for a while.  WoW's last xpac broke me a bit.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 27, 2011, 12:48:31 PM
I'm not down on it like the folks seem to be. It's pretty much exactly what I expected it would be, with a few hiccups in terms of UI, bad animations and insufficient explanation of what some things are and do. 

I didn't get the love for Rift some people had either, though.  It just appeals to different segments, I suppose.  I always read quest text in WoW and was a sucker for even LOLORE crap. This scratches that itch very nicely and the ONLY reason I've skipped stuff is because I only have a few more hours to get through things and I wanted to get to 10 on more than one character.

The combat needs some work - I think.  I can't tell for certain because some of it is OMGSTRESS lag and some is my ancient PC chugging really hard to load things.  As I said in the other thread, it just doesn't feel as responsive as WoW always has.  It's much snappier than LOTR ever felt but there's still some feeling of action lag.   Perhaps some of you can tell me if you're feeling the same or if it's just a latency problem.

The abilities themselves feel a little sparse, but I think part of that is I'm comparing it to games that have been out a lot longer.  Yeah, Rift had a lot more abilities per class but that was because you could role-swap so easily.  Each class only used a few of them, but in SWTOR it *seems* like you're going to have a use for each button you're given.  It could just be that I've only gotten to 11/12 so I haven't run into the "omg once in a while' abilities.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 27, 2011, 12:50:00 PM
I'm in two minds about it but I honestly think that I can't make a proper judgement on this until I've played at live with a character I'm going to keep in a class I want to play. But I was surprised at how much I quite enjoyed playing Consular even if the story itself has yet to grab me.  Ironically, it's the story mechanics that have pissed me off most of all - I don't mind the dialogue in class stories but having several dialogue trees to navigate on a quest I've done before makes me miss not having a text box I can just click to accept and close.

On the other hand, I'm easily amused (especially by Star Wars games) and reckon I'll enjoy it for a month or two. I can totally justify spending a sub on this as well because it fits within my beer-to-fun conversion ratio. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 27, 2011, 12:54:32 PM
The companion character touches are new for an MMO -- persistent "relationship" with an NPC in-game, plus I really like the whole "go and craft/scavenge/sell" for me while I go shoot things. Nothing makes my eyes bleed worse than sitting at a crafting station watching a progress bar and this fixes that. Plus reverse engineering for getting mats back PLUS chance for new recipe. Works for me.

My friends and I grouped up for Esseles last night and enjoyed it. The social points thing is interesting, plus LOLing at choices my friends make when they win the cut scene roll.

Negative points, though, to BW for boss loot implementation. RIFT's "everyone gets a shiny" plus a 30 minute trade window, is miles better.

I feel like BW's noobness in the MMO space shows, but by no means is the game a disaster.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 27, 2011, 12:54:39 PM
My opinion of it is mostly exactly what I expected, I probably wouldn't be pre-ordering if I didn't have a group of friends that wanted to play it together.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 27, 2011, 01:12:30 PM
It's a diku. Beta made me look forward to it far more, though. Mechanically, it's pretty much WoW vanilla. Style points out the ass, however.

I've liked the stories quite a bit so far. And I didn't think I'd care much about the voice acting, but I actually spent a decent amount of time deciding on characters based on their stories and how much I felt the voice fit the character's theme.

I don't know that I'll enjoy raiding at all. Single group healing wasn't bad, but wasn't that interesting at pre-30 levels either. I need to take one last look at the UI options to see if I can fix up the group UI for healing. Didn't like that by default the player names didn't seem to fall down F2-F4 that I could tell (looked like it went UP instead?), and I didn't like that my health/resource isn't listed with the other health bars.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: MuffinMan on November 27, 2011, 01:16:58 PM
I don't think I would even be thinking about it if it wasn't for Bat Country. Which is quite silly since everyone will disappear within a month of release.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 27, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
Which is quite silly since everyone will disappear within a month of release.

The optimist would say "Or they'll swell in force within a month of release because of it's awesomeness and realization that GW2 is still months off  :grin: :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 27, 2011, 01:24:06 PM
For some reason I get a laugh out of your companion. They seem like slave labor. "Ooh, a resource node! YOU THERE, SCAN AND LOOT THAT"


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 27, 2011, 01:26:59 PM
The combat needs some work - I think.  I can't tell for certain because some of it is OMGSTRESS lag and some is my ancient PC chugging really hard to load things.  As I said in the other thread, it just doesn't feel as responsive as WoW always has.  It's much snappier than LOTR ever felt but there's still some feeling of action lag.   Perhaps some of you can tell me if you're feeling the same or if it's just a latency problem.

The first couple hours of the last beta weekend, the combat felt pretty sluggish. Not that bad, not not as responsive as I wanted. Later in the night I tried the same class again and the combat felt completely fine. I'd say it feels maybe slightly less responsive than WoW, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were experiencing server lag.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2011, 01:30:27 PM
I played for 2 hours and liked it. The story is cool, the combat doesn't bother me like some seem to think, and the interface isn't horrific. I fully expect it to be updated anyway within a couple months.

I'm pleased with my preorder and plan on playing it for a while.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 27, 2011, 01:33:04 PM
The early experience is better than ever, but now I'm very certain that Bioware is unable to produce high quality content quick enough.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: MuffinMan on November 27, 2011, 01:35:16 PM
The optimist would say "Or they'll swell in force within a month of release because of it's awesomeness and realization that GW2 is still months off  :grin: :why_so_serious:
That's not optimism if you think BC will stick around. That's just rampant naivety.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 27, 2011, 01:35:44 PM
Man I thought I wasnt getting this for sure. But beta weekend changed my mind.  Story is actually quite good . I played IA to 10  and Sith Assasin to 18. I liked IA line better , but SA is not bad either. Yes it wow clone in everything but quests, which actually form single player quality storyline (with a few MMOish flavor quests)

Yes it probably will be for play-trough-once forget it. But imho its worth  playing just for this. And it actually looks like there is 2 major storylines for each faction. So make it play 4 times till level 20 , play twice till level 50.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 27, 2011, 01:36:22 PM
The early experience is better than ever, but now I'm very certain that Bioware is unable to produce high quality content quick enough.
I'm going to flash my fan-boy card briefly and say that if a rag-tag team like Trion can put out more content in 6-months than what WoW could in two years, I think it's highly possible/probable that BW could do the same.  Hell, at the rate things are going with this thread and the general consensus around the net from this weekend, they're gonna have to.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on November 27, 2011, 01:37:39 PM
I feel like BW's noobness in the MMO space shows, but by no means is the game a disaster.
More like the MMO industry vets guiding the project show their stripes, but I agree with your points.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 27, 2011, 01:40:25 PM

The early experience is better than ever, but now I'm very certain that Bioware is unable to produce high quality content quick enough.
I'm going to flash my fan-boy card briefly and say that if a rag-tag team like Trion can put out more content in 6-months than what WoW could in two years, I think it's highly possible/probable that BW could do the same.  Hell, at the rate things are going with this thread and the general consensus around the net from this weekend, they're gonna have to.
[/quote]

I am pretty damn sure BW wouldnt be able produce squat for content. Because its all voice acted ,highly scripted etc. Once everyone finishes their line their will be staring at subpar WOW  with lightsabers. But before that it would be great ride


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 27, 2011, 01:41:15 PM
People have been clamoring for more "good" content for months, especially flashpoints. I got to experience the 2nd flashpoint, and it was far too similar to a standard group dungeon.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 27, 2011, 01:41:36 PM
Love it, beta weekends confirmed it.

Feel exactly the same way.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Reg on November 27, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
I'm quite happy with the game so far. It's pretty much exactly what I expected it to be.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on November 27, 2011, 01:45:24 PM
I'm all in for SWTOR.  I went into this weekend not wanting to play too much and ended up catassing the last two days.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Azuredream on November 27, 2011, 01:46:36 PM
I'm all in for SWTOR.  I went into this weekend not wanting to play too much and ended up catassing the last two days.   :oh_i_see:

I experienced a similar phenomenon.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 27, 2011, 01:49:04 PM
 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:


No one is surprised, though, are they?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: TripleDES on November 27, 2011, 02:01:58 PM
I guess I would get it for the story, but it became really tiresome. The main story mission makes you often enough run across the whole map, coincidentally letting you run into tons of mob groups, and then all the way back (quick travel has 30 min downtime). Most of them are the same encounter over and over. That is stretching my will to play pretty thin.

And I guess what's grating me, too, is that I've spent several hours into this, done god knows how many missions, and I still can't travel anywhere I want (i.e. Tatooine). Either that, or I'm fucking stupid and didn't find the appropriate shuttles.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: VainEldritch on November 27, 2011, 02:04:58 PM
At the risk of being neither useful nor for that matter cynical, I love it. Frankly SWTOR is my MMORPG Nirvana. I've been thrilled by the game play, loved the SI and JC stories, revelled in them. Never have I been so engaged by, or felt so involved in any game - never like this.

Servers are down so I'm off for pizza... happy to have this to come back to.

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 27, 2011, 02:08:33 PM
I actually feel bad that I'm not digging the game as much as I was a month or two ago. Most of my friends are all over it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2011, 02:11:44 PM
I'm kind of amazed that the reactions are THIS different.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 27, 2011, 02:28:04 PM
I'm kind of amazed that the reactions are THIS different.

I chalked it up to "Star Wars fan or not", but maybe not.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 27, 2011, 02:31:08 PM
I'm all in for SWTOR.  I went into this weekend not wanting to play too much and ended up catassing the last two days.   :oh_i_see:

I experienced a similar phenomenon.

Same thing here. Then I did a second weekend and got bored out of my skull and canceled my preorder. This thing is going to break sales records, both in boxes sold, and in used servers on ebay a few months later.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 27, 2011, 02:33:47 PM
As I've mentioned before, I'm not a "Star Wars fan." This is sort of turning me into one though.  :why_so_serious:

I mean, I don't dislike Star Wars or anything, but I was never hugely into it. I enjoyed the original trilogy, but I think I only ever saw it two or three times, if that. And I didn't get the toys growing up or anything, so I don't have that nostalgia factor either.


That said, I was surprised how "whee!" I was when I finally got my damn lightsaber.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: cironian on November 27, 2011, 02:38:39 PM
Put me down as really liking what I saw. I can live with the combat mechanics being nothing novel. They still work well enough, apart from the interface problems with targeting. The stories, and how they are presented, are of course the main attraction. I think I'll play an even mix from both sides, with one of each mirror class for a start.

 - Trooper storyline is, indeed, intriguing.
 - Sith Warrior makes playing an evil, arrogant asshole really, really fun. (Every companion character should come with a shock collar :why_so_serious:)
 - Agent seems interesting too, although I only did the very first few missions there.
 - A consular should serve well as my good force user. Plus I'm interested to see how the "tempted by the dark side" story works out.

Will I still be playing it in a year? Depends on how well they do at adding content I guess. But I'm pretty sure I'll play through some of the class storylines before I put it down.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 27, 2011, 02:48:42 PM
Put me down as still haven't check it out, still don't care to and wont ever play it.

Also I'm still on the whole: "story" is a waste of resources for a MMO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tale on November 27, 2011, 02:55:04 PM
There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sheepherder on November 27, 2011, 03:00:10 PM
Quote
Synthweaving is the one that confused me. I turn this crystal into a .. cloth belt?

LOL asbestos armour.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on November 27, 2011, 03:04:17 PM
There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?

They are nothing alike.  I enjoyed SWG and quit before NGE but Im also ok with the thempark MMO style so TOR will work out ok for me.  Ive been in beta a while and I know what the game offers and while its not mind blowing for me I have fun with certain aspects and want to expand on them more live.  I do want to try some of the end game a bit and see the world PvP to a greater extent.  I'll probably invest at least 2-3 months into it and will see by then what they've added, fixed, changed, etc.  If I get bored Ill move on to GW2 or something so in summary Im keeping my CE order.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: trias_e on November 27, 2011, 03:28:31 PM
Does anyone have an idea much time played it will take to get through one story arc?   To be honest, that's how I'm looking at this game.  I'm not pretending in any way to be here for the MMORPG, although I may do a little PvP or a few flashpoints to alleviate the WoW-questing drudgery.  I would prefer it to be as quick as possible, so what classes are overpowered in solo PvE/have movement speed boosts/are interesting to play?  I'm hoping a Sith Marauder could be fun, but word is that they aren't so hot at the moment unfortunately.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 27, 2011, 04:01:33 PM
Hardcore players finish it in around 2.5 weeks, so I think it'll take around 150 hours.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: fuser on November 27, 2011, 04:08:32 PM
So my ongoing woe from unlocking my account. Brief recap, 3+hrs on hold various calls. Hung up on and dropped calls before and during beta weekend. Finally got an agent who said my account would be unlocked in an hour which never happened. Agent said if there was further issues to email. Emailed about the issue two days ago to support@swtor.com. Oh happy joy I got an email tonight

Quote
I am Protocol Droid L1-f9 of Human Cyborg Relations.

Thank you for contacting us regarding your Security Questions. However, we regret to inform you that we cannot deal with your request through email. In order to protect your account, all Security Question issues are dealt with via our Customer Service telephone support.

 :argh:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 27, 2011, 04:12:11 PM
There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?

Wasn't a fan of SWG but wasn't a hater, either.  I was more annoyed that it was UO in space and sim-beru instead of a rollicking action adventure.   My good times there were all about social interaction despite the game mechanics.

I'm not a fanboy of TOR but I'm enjoying it a lot more than SWG.  I haven't interacted with people beyond chat and I'm still having a good time.  Part of it is learning new mechanics part of it is loving having a story to follow.

I'd say this is probably because I like guided games loads more than open ones.  I'm an Achiever and not shy about it.  Giving me an "open" game like SWG or UO is - to me - saying "I was too lazy to give you something to do once I built all these tools. Entertain yourself."  No, I want to consume content when I play games.  If I want to build or create something I do it offline so I have a finished object that doesn't go away when the servers do or my subscription lapses.  Online time is all about consumption.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 27, 2011, 04:20:24 PM
I tried a consular because everyone said the jedi storylines were bad and I had no interest what-so-ever in playing one in release.  It wasn't too bad. I just wish I could have logged into my bugged level 10+ BH and Agent.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 27, 2011, 04:20:39 PM
... a few flashpoints to alleviate the WoW-questing drudgery...

I've tried out all 8 classes (some several times) to level 5 or so and have a Trooper to 13. So far nothing I've done has felt like true drudgery (the kind where you sigh at just the thought of doing what you're asked to do and start to wonder how quickly you can get through it -- I'm looking at you LOTRO deeds). I winced at first when one bonus in the Trooper story line had an enemy count of x/50, but there were so many enemies I had to burn through on the mission that I barely noticed the count.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 27, 2011, 04:27:13 PM
Good stuff, but replay value has me wondering.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: TripleDES on November 27, 2011, 04:35:07 PM
There seem to be points in the story mission, where they force you to group. At least that's the impression those tanked hard hitting bosses give me. Fuck that. Like I'm spending god knows how much time LFG'ing to clear a damn mission.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 27, 2011, 04:37:55 PM
Your story missions are all solo and practically always instanced.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 27, 2011, 04:45:02 PM
There seem to be points in the story mission, where they force you to group. At least that's the impression those tanked hard hitting bosses give me. Fuck that. Like I'm spending god knows how much time LFG'ing to clear a damn mission.

Trooper and having problems with those goddamned Sith blaster guys where there's 2 of them?  It's a balance problem, you just have to focus their minions and take a few deaths to move past that first group. After that it'll be close but you should be ok to kill the rest of the groups.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: TripleDES on November 27, 2011, 04:54:46 PM
Right now, I'm fighting two minions that I can get down easily, and then that main dude with like 4500HP, resists as fuck and lots of damage. I don't seem to be getting anywhere, expect dying a lot.

Unless Bioware is telling me to go level more and try next time.

--edit: Smuggler, in Dock 87, trying to get past that cantina dude.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on November 27, 2011, 05:01:15 PM
The only shitty thing about this game is the UI.  It's horrid and archaic.  Other than that, this game is a great story driven DIKU.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on November 27, 2011, 05:15:26 PM

Sounds a bit like the positive responses are the star wars fans and bioware RPG fans who are focused on the story, while the MMO fans look at the mechanics and despair.

The test will be pre-release content and retention, because holding on to the story fans is going to be tough / impossible. Though they're lucky that Blizzard dropped the ball for them and there's few other players of note on the field.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 27, 2011, 05:19:49 PM
I'm kind of amazed that the reactions are THIS different.

The reactions are actually pretty similar across the board, the only thing different is what different people are looking for.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the game is a by-the-numbers MMO in terms of mechanics and systems with some Bioware story stuff. Some people like that and some people don't, but I don't really see anyone anywhere claiming that the game is better than other games mechanically.

Quote from: Kageru
Sounds a bit like the positive responses are the star wars fans and bioware RPG fans who are focused on the story, while the MMO fans look at the mechanics and despair.

This. For some people the mechanics are good enough but I don't see many claiming that they are anything more than that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 27, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
I'm very pleased after trying it.   Even if the the post-release story is anemic this game will finally let me scratch my alt itch.  Other games I get too tired of the grind while leveling alts.  There's some problems no doubt but the only one I worry about is how long UI mods will take.   Everything else like LFG and what not I'm confident they'll fix soon.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on November 27, 2011, 05:52:05 PM
The only shitty thing about this game is the UI.  It's horrid and archaic.  Other than that, this game is a great story driven DIKU.

WTB target of target option


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 27, 2011, 05:56:03 PM
The only shitty thing about this game is the UI.  It's horrid and archaic.  Other than that, this game is a great story driven DIKU.

WTB target of target option

Isn't that what the "focus target" option does? Or did I misunderstand that?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 27, 2011, 06:14:48 PM
Quote
There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?

I liked SWG because I love UO. I quit because of the bugs, not because of the game--which I actually quite liked. I ignored the Star Wars part--it was bad for the game and bad for SW. This is more of a Star Wars experience, but I was bored in two beta weekends, nevermind full time playing.

I don't think it's whether or not you like Star Wars. After I logged off SWTOR, I went in the living room and watched Empire.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 27, 2011, 06:18:43 PM
Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?

Beta thankfully saved me sixty bucks. This game becomes tedious faster than any MMO in recent memory. At least Rift was worth the box purchase for a couple months' diversion. By the second day of this beta event I just want to tell these quest NPCs to shut the fuck up and get on with it. And everything outside that is pathetically generic, reminds me of Tabula Rasa. Aside from the talking heads it's just a game years out of date.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 27, 2011, 06:23:47 PM
Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?

Beta thankfully saved me sixty bucks. This game becomes tedious faster than any MMO in recent memory. At least Rift was worth the box purchase for a couple months' diversion. By the second day of this beta event I just want to tell these quest NPCs to shut the fuck up and get on with it. And everything outside that is pathetically generic.

i.e. you could care less about story or character, or you just don't care for *these* stories or characters?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 27, 2011, 06:35:27 PM
That is a good question and I'm not sure. I know these stories offered (well, played a few classes close to level 10 so I can't make blanket statements I guess) are just trite saturday-morning cartoon drivel. But I don't know how much an MMO needs a force-fed personal story at all. I've always thought the story of my MMO characters was in my head, and the random things that happened, and people I met, more than some preordained path.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 27, 2011, 06:41:47 PM
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you could care less about story or character, or you just don't care for *these* stories or characters?

I loved the storylines the first weekend, they totally drew me in. I was fascinated with how my character was developing. Then the second weekend, I started to figure out it was all an illusion. In most cases, it didn't matter what I clicked.

I can't remember what dialog line it was, but I did BT three times and each time we chose a different response ranging from snappy loyal Imperials to STFU and die and the NPC said exactly the same thing in response and there was absolutely no difference in outcome. That was the moment I saw The Great Oz and the quest stuff was over for me.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on November 27, 2011, 06:44:11 PM
Played the crap out of the last two beta weekends, I would lifetime subscribe if they gave that option.

Unanimous rave reviews from my friends and former guildies, though most of them are big Star Wars fanboys/girls anyway so not likely a representative sample  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2011, 06:50:52 PM
Put me down as still haven't check it out, still don't care to and wont ever play it.

Also I'm still on the whole: "story" is a waste of resources for a MMO.

Awesome. Why did you post here again?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 27, 2011, 06:51:22 PM
In most cases, it didn't matter what I clicked.


EXACTLY. It's all bullshit. You have zero choice in any of this story stuff, it is completely mindless.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: trias_e on November 27, 2011, 07:02:55 PM
Ugh.  You guys are making me consider cancelling my pre-order.  Does anyone have anything good to say about the story/characters?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on November 27, 2011, 07:12:58 PM
There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?
I find SWTOR inferior in almost every way that matters to my tastes.

It's less buggy and better balanced, so bravo for that.  The mod system would be heaven if it applied to more styles of clothing.  At least I know I can deck Kira out in full social clothes and it looks pretty good.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Azuredream on November 27, 2011, 07:28:09 PM
I played my first game of Huttball today. Whoever designed that is a genius.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 27, 2011, 07:29:40 PM
Put me down as still haven't check it out, still don't care to and wont ever play it.

Also I'm still on the whole: "story" is a waste of resources for a MMO.

Awesome. Why did you post here again?

The original question didn't say I had to have played the beta, it just asked me if it had changed my thoughts. Maybe you should make your question more exclusive if you want to get a more limited range of responses?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on November 27, 2011, 07:34:01 PM
EXACTLY. It's all bullshit. You have zero choice in any of this story stuff, it is completely mindless.
I got quite a few responses that made me raise my eyebrowes, prob. because the tried to make one answer fit as many statements as possible. And for me, it does work most of the time.

There are choices to make, just not as many as you or I would like. Pretty sure all the dark/light choices differ in the "response" and quite a few of the "normal" conversations as well. If you don't replay each of the basic on the classes/on the same planet back to back, I'd doubt you would even notice it.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 27, 2011, 07:39:47 PM
I loved the storylines the first weekend, they totally drew me in. I was fascinated with how my character was developing. Then the second weekend, I started to figure out it was all an illusion. In most cases, it didn't matter what I clicked.

This is how all Bioware RPGs work. They give the illusion of choice, not actual choice. It works well the first time through but the illusion shatters when you do the quests a second time on another character. I don't really have a problem with it as long as they sell you on the illusion the first time through, but I also wasn't expected to pay $15 a month for other Bioware RPGs.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 27, 2011, 07:48:20 PM
There are choices to make,

Are there really? Because I didn't play/replay enough to know for sure. Are there any choices in these storylines that actually alter the way the story plays out? If not then you are not really talking about choice, just maybe getting a different canned response that sends you to the same result.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on November 27, 2011, 08:01:37 PM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 27, 2011, 08:14:44 PM
Ugh.  You guys are making me consider cancelling my pre-order.  Does anyone have anything good to say about the story/characters?

Yeah I liked the Sith Warrior story. Essentially it takes place on Korriban and you go through the training at a very accelerated pace with a nemesis, a boss on the edge, and lots of backstabbing at play. Plus, you can take time out of your busy schedule to poke at prisoners with a shock collar!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 27, 2011, 08:16:07 PM
There are choices to make,

Are there really? Because I didn't play/replay enough to know for sure. Are there any choices in these storylines that actually alter the way the story plays out? If not then you are not really talking about choice, just maybe getting a different canned response that sends you to the same result.

There are choices that alter some things.  I can't say whether or not it alters them to the extent that you personally would want, but I've already seen a number of cases where you can save or kill a character and those choices result in conversations or story moments that wouldn't have happened otherwise later on.  From what I've seen, they don't dramatically change things (although I think sometimes choices can alter some of the fights in Flashpoints), but it's also not as simple as every dialogue choice always leading to the exact same thing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 27, 2011, 08:20:33 PM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.

Well said.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 27, 2011, 08:23:12 PM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.

Well said.

Yes, exactly. I've been trying to explain this to people forever in the DA2 thread but nobody seems to get it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 27, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Right now, I'm fighting two minions that I can get down easily, and then that main dude with like 4500HP, resists as fuck and lots of damage. I don't seem to be getting anywhere, expect dying a lot.

Unless Bioware is telling me to go level more and try next time.

--edit: Smuggler, in Dock 87, trying to get past that cantina dude.

If it's the fight I'm thinking of, it's hard as all hell and you pretty much need the cheat companion cooldown that heals you both for a minute.

I did a bit of damage, but mostly stayed way back and chain healed my companion. Every attempt at actually helping my companion deal damage wound up with us both dead. Half the problem is he does a lot of ground effect damage, and companions are difficult to get out of that without dancing with passive/attack.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on November 27, 2011, 09:58:17 PM
It feels like another KOTOR game with the shitty D20 implementation stripped out and a shitty DIKU implementation bolted in. Nevermind I would have enjoyed the shit out of a single player KOTOR4 game with TOR's combat and better enemy/ally AI.

It's still Bioware, so it's still well written and a lot of fun in spite of itself. I always kinda wanted a multiplayer KOTOR and kinda wondered how the RP-ish stuff would fit in; they did it about as well as you could. Your RP shit doesn't affect as much as it probably should but you can thank whiny MMO players (spoilers: It's you, YOU'RE HITLER) because any sort of "development" those players didn't like and couldn't immediately reverse would cause them to cry uncontrollably. "What do you MEAN I can't get item/achievement/cutscene/etc XYZ because I just acted like a dick/goody-two-shoes all the time!? That's UNFAIR!"

I had fun during the beta, and I'll probably keep having fun until I see all the content I want to see. At which point, the game will unconsciously devolve for me from enjoying the story/content/world to me crunching numbers on spoiler sites and complaining about nerfs/buffs or how bosses have too high numbers/too low numbers. Then I'll realize this at some point and unsub. C'est la vie.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 27, 2011, 10:01:13 PM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.

Well said.

In the BH story line, I chose to play as much as a ruthless opportunist and mercenary as possible, and surprised myself in my willingness to choose some of the more grisly options/actions. My human Sith Inquisitor, on the other hand, is bound and determined to hold on to his humanity as long as possible. In almost every case, my approach to the game is to play as a character rather than myself -- I've never felt an MMO has supported this before in quite the same way. Yes, Saturday morning cartoon story lines -- including  Not quite the stuff of scooby doo, so I give them points for offering some truly dark choices for Empire characters. The art style also goes for the cartoon look (for the better IMHO). I'm hoping that with, supposedly, 200 hours of unique story per class, it may be at least entertaining to run through each of the classes once.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 27, 2011, 11:06:11 PM
I went in just to check it out because I knew I wasn't going to buy it. Got a Sith Inquisitor all the way through the first two worlds (level 16 or so) and three other characters to level 10. I enjoyed it way too much, and will probably end up getting it at some point, probably late january when Dragon Soul starts getting old. Chalk it up to star wars & bioware. I think I was hopelessly sold on it the first time my sith started running with her lightsabre out. sigh.

I think they should've went 100% (rather than 98% :uhrr:) with wow and not try any new stuff to be honest. The whole cover stance is a complete mess and I cannot even imagine how it works in any dynamic pve encounter or pvp. 6 months of beta and noone realised that needs to be off the GCD? I like the IA's storyline and class to an extent, but the cover thing is completely ruining it for me.

So are the character stories only up to level 20? That's kind of disappointing. Expected, but still  :heartbreak:

Also I think I made a mistake by being a good boy and filling out the first pop up thing that appeared. It got really annoying at one point where it would pop up in the middle of me having a conversation WHAT ARE YOU DOING RIGHT NOW? HOW ABOUT NOW? AND NOW?

Oh, and while I'm at it a couple more gripes - skill ranks and "increase the derp of herp by y" talents are soooooo last year.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 27, 2011, 11:14:33 PM
Character stories go all the way up through the levels, but become an increasingly small proportion of content as you go.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 27, 2011, 11:18:58 PM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.

Really? You find this pulp fiction compelling enough to invest yourself and suspend disbelief? I think I should just park it here because further progress is just a pointless minefield. I'll say it does not work for me even on some kind of nerdy guilty-pleasure level and leave it at that I guess.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 27, 2011, 11:22:02 PM
Your story is what is driving you to be in all these odd places, so it should follow you until the end of leveling at the very least. One would hope that at 50 there's still a bunch of having it out with your big bads or whatever drives the various storylines.


As for cover: it's not actually that bad. You can just crouch anywhere to use the cover only abilities. Using real cover just grants defensive bonuses. I actually prefer the cover mechanic to the alternative in this game. Just because it may make sense for jedi to be standing in blaster fire, but fuck if anyone without a lightsaber or a deathwish isn't going to dive into cover. Upper Hand is a far more obnoxious mechanic imo.

Skill wise, I slightly dislike ranks just because blah going back to my trainer sucks. I more dislike the either bugged or purposefully value tooltips. Shields target for a large amount of damage! Okay game, let's sit down and define "large" so I know what we're talking, here. And on all my characters I had at least one high damage ability that said "deals 2 damage to target." Tooltips should be easy to set an intern on fixing, though. So I have my hopes up for them being fixed shortly.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 27, 2011, 11:42:26 PM
In most cases, it didn't matter what I clicked.

The reason for Bioware style dialog is for you to choose how your character acts and what kind of personality they have.    That ALWAYS matters.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 27, 2011, 11:45:22 PM
. In almost every case, my approach to the game is to play as a character rather than myself -- I've never felt an MMO has supported this before in quite the same way.
Absolutely. The 367 weekend I played the Consular pretty much as myself, do the right thing and respect people. It was a lot of fun and made me feel good.

This weekend I rp'd a Jack Bauer Knight. Quit dicking around and save the galaxy no matter the cost. And the story really supports that in an interesting way (though my first two companions aren't real fond of me). LOTS of opportunities to kill people off in dialog scenes, sometimes it's pretty intensely acted. I'd imagine the morality of the dark Knight and light Warrior interweave and can't wait to see how the other side plays out.

In both cases there were plenty of moments where I had to stop and think how I (or Jack) wanted to handle a situation. I struggled with the old stuff like good of the many vs the one etc, and my Jack-a-like struggled to adhere to an internal morality (or lack thereof) without stepping into puppy-kicking or what he perceives as weakness in the Jedi Order. Good stuff.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 12:31:32 AM
It's a BioWare RPG.  It's not about the choices having an effect on the game world, it's about the choices having an effect on you.

That's pretty much why I play them, yes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on November 28, 2011, 12:36:04 AM
I found myself getting disturbingly attached to a purely evil-as-fuck Sith Warrior.  To the point I wondered if different "darkside" choices actually were more "darkly."  I do believe in the climactic beginning treachery that your disposition creates more/less darkside alignment.

I'm sure the minmaxers will have all this stuff mapped out in a week or so for sure.

Upon playing a BH though, I took a fairly "professional" outlook and ended up pretty neutral... sometimes darkly, sometimes lightly, but balanced in the end.  My M.O. was simply honoring the jobs given to me and not backstabbing even if more credits were available.  It got me wondering...  is there ANY benefit to leading a balanced existence?  If not, I'd say the alignment mechanic is fairly broken for RPing your typical BH/smuggler.  Gear should not simply be dark/good.  If you can maintain a shade of grey near the endgame you should be adequately rewarded.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 28, 2011, 12:37:47 AM
As for cover: it's not actually that bad. You can just crouch anywhere to use the cover only abilities. Using real cover just grants defensive bonuses. I actually prefer the cover mechanic to the alternative in this game. Just because it may make sense for jedi to be standing in blaster fire, but fuck if anyone without a lightsaber or a deathwish isn't going to dive into cover. Upper Hand is a far more obnoxious mechanic imo.

Like I said, I don't mind the cover mechanic per se. It's the way it's implemented that annoys me. If it was off the GCD, I'd be very happy with it, jump into cover and start the pew right away. The only issue that can come of this is easily fixable by putting a 1.5s (or however long the gcd is) CD and we're set. Not jump into cover, wait for 1s, start the pew. I know it sounds silly, but it is what it is :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: apocrypha on November 28, 2011, 03:14:08 AM
Found half an hour to give this a try yesterday. Colour me deeply unimpressed. Feels like a pre-WoW era MMO done blandly.

I like the character creation, there's a good amount of variety there. The intro movie rocks too... and then dumps you into a game that looks nothing like that.

Everything seems to be made of tupperware. OK, crank the graphics settings up to max. Now it looks like shiny tupperware. Oh well, gameplay > graphics, right?

But it's an MMO. Kill 10 space rats. Find a weapon. Look out for those guys that are 3 levels higher than you. Choose from 3 dialogue options, none of which seem to make any difference, none of which say what I want to say and none of which represent what my character actually says after I choose one.

Oh and why does my lightsaber look like a yellow stick? That's not a lightsaber. Maybe it is actually a yellow stick, but I picked that character cos there was a picture of a lightsaber and it said "lightsaber" in the description. Where's my lightsaber?!

I'll give it more time later. Initial impressions are very, very bad however. This shit needs to be better than WoW, not blander.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 04:01:55 AM
I found myself getting disturbingly attached to a purely evil-as-fuck Sith Warrior.  To the point I wondered if different "darkside" choices actually were more "darkly."  I do believe in the climactic beginning treachery that your disposition creates more/less darkside alignment.

I'm sure the minmaxers will have all this stuff mapped out in a week or so for sure.

Upon playing a BH though, I took a fairly "professional" outlook and ended up pretty neutral... sometimes darkly, sometimes lightly, but balanced in the end.  My M.O. was simply honoring the jobs given to me and not backstabbing even if more credits were available.  It got me wondering...  is there ANY benefit to leading a balanced existence?  If not, I'd say the alignment mechanic is fairly broken for RPing your typical BH/smuggler.  Gear should not simply be dark/good.  If you can maintain a shade of grey near the endgame you should be adequately rewarded.

It's bioware. The fundamental flaw in all their story output is that it only ever rewards playing as Captain Picard or Dirty Harry.

In a normal bioware game it doesn't matter because power creep obliterates any need to chase power. In this I don't know.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 04:04:57 AM
As for cover: it's not actually that bad. You can just crouch anywhere to use the cover only abilities. Using real cover just grants defensive bonuses. I actually prefer the cover mechanic to the alternative in this game. Just because it may make sense for jedi to be standing in blaster fire, but fuck if anyone without a lightsaber or a deathwish isn't going to dive into cover. Upper Hand is a far more obnoxious mechanic imo.

Like I said, I don't mind the cover mechanic per se. It's the way it's implemented that annoys me. If it was off the GCD, I'd be very happy with it, jump into cover and start the pew right away. The only issue that can come of this is easily fixable by putting a 1.5s (or however long the gcd is) CD and we're set. Not jump into cover, wait for 1s, start the pew. I know it sounds silly, but it is what it is :)

GCD is always stupid and restrictive design.

There is a reason it never occurred to anyone before 2004.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 28, 2011, 04:19:46 AM
I don't agree. There are very little reasons for GCD to not be there, and a whole lot of reasons for it to exist. It doesn't make sense for some skills though, and there's precendet even in TOR for abilities that do not trigger or are not affected by gcd.

For example, just looking at the talents, I can see why 1 month into release there will be a 150 page thread about snipers dumping their focus in 5 globals and oneshotting tanks through shield wall. No GCD and it will be a true one shot, because you'd macro the shot progression :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 28, 2011, 04:19:53 AM
They did say that they're adding neutral alignment gear, I believe. Just not yet.  :drill:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: jakonovski on November 28, 2011, 04:49:31 AM
They did say that they're adding neutral alignment gear, I believe. Just not yet.  :drill:

I feel a great disturbance in the Force. It's as if millions of prospective Han Solos cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 05:48:03 AM
As for cover: it's not actually that bad. You can just crouch anywhere to use the cover only abilities. Using real cover just grants defensive bonuses. I actually prefer the cover mechanic to the alternative in this game. Just because it may make sense for jedi to be standing in blaster fire, but fuck if anyone without a lightsaber or a deathwish isn't going to dive into cover. Upper Hand is a far more obnoxious mechanic imo.

Like I said, I don't mind the cover mechanic per se. It's the way it's implemented that annoys me. If it was off the GCD, I'd be very happy with it, jump into cover and start the pew right away. The only issue that can come of this is easily fixable by putting a 1.5s (or however long the gcd is) CD and we're set. Not jump into cover, wait for 1s, start the pew. I know it sounds silly, but it is what it is :)

GCD is always stupid and restrictive design.

There is a reason it never occurred to anyone before 2004.

The only way to avoid the GCD is to either put huge cooldowns on things, or make everything have a cast time. The GCD is there to avoid "I press macro button, seven spells hit you instantly" issue with instants.

What this game does need is a quartz-like UI element, since there is a point during a cast where you can start casting the next spell due to latency. Just mashing the 2 key casts far faster than hitting 2, waiting for cast, hitting 2.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Minvaren on November 28, 2011, 05:56:16 AM
Played this 2 weekends ago and the past weekend a bit as well.

Sith Inquisitor storyline was interesting.  Republic Trooper storyline was meh.

You can definitely feel the diku-like crack in it.  But even so, I was splitting my time between this and DCUO, of all things.  As was said earlier, this feels like KotOR2.5 in a shared space with other people, only with throwing in the dialogue wheel complete with random answers from ME/DA.  I might get a month or two out of this at best, but I don't see me sticking with it long term.

Not sure what has changed in me as well, but I found myself frantically trying to fast-forward through the quest dialogue as well.  I used to replay the KotORs to see all of the dialogue in the past, now it's just "...ok, get to what life-threatening and time-consuming kill 10 foozle quest you want me to do..."   :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 28, 2011, 06:04:48 AM
Played sparingly last beta weekend. This weekend, I transformed myself back into a keyboard creature complete with arc'd spine, raccoon-like, bloodshot eyes, and unkempt hair. The bounty hunter arc was good fun, though now I have no clue what to play at release since I was whole-heartedly set on Jug. Even took a sin to 15 and even that is tempting. But my Merc was just plain sick with a healbot pet. Finally got done with my story on Kaas and got my ship. They had me on the normal ground game, but I get a player house with hyperdrive, a droid butler (whom I have given the name, Benson), and a california king bed? Sold. Hell, I might even preorder through Origin... though I kinda want another MMO tombstone on my shelf.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on November 28, 2011, 06:07:30 AM
It's pretty much what I expected it to be, a good single player game that happens to have other people around doing their own single player games.  The stories are very good and I will play through at least one lightsaber and one gun-type class on each side (unless they all wind up being too similar as they level up).  Then I will cancel and wait for an expansion because the MMO and grouping side of things are cringe inducingly out of date and unfun.  I don't know why, since it should be such a little thing, but the mobs just instantly popping in on respawn instead of a nice fade-in made my skin crawl.  Probably flashbacks to blocked out memories from all the older MMO's I've played, the fact that since you are usually killing groups three of them pop in at once just exacerbates it.

I was also surprised at how serious they were about the republic/empire classes being equivalent.  I did not realize it meant they would have the exact same abilities and class trees.  I started out with a smuggler, then tried agent and was able to use the same layouts and timings since they are mirror images.  There are really only four classes in the game.

Also, the talent trees are painfully boring and weak.

Fake edit - On re-reading this my post sounds very negative but it really isn't meant to be.  I like the game a lot and will have fun for quite a while I'm sure, it's KotOR 3 but with other people to trade loot with really.  I think a lot of the posts that people might be miss reading as negative are like this too.  It's a very good game but only a mediocre MMO.  I have no experience with end game but if that winds up being really well done I could overlook the more basic, dated MMO qualities.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 28, 2011, 06:23:35 AM
Was your agent actually called Miasma? A rattattattatta female?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on November 28, 2011, 06:34:51 AM
No, chiss male with a different name.  Miasma is usually taken or the name of an ability/mob and reserved.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 06:35:20 AM
I don't get the "It's all an illusion" complaints.

So are choices in single player games.  So is reading a book, or watching a movie, or television.  You want choice you have to create your own content or write your own story.  Everything else is just an illusion and caring about that character in their situation, nothing more.

I view the whole thing as a shared reading experience, like a book club in game form.  A missed mark if Bioware were designing for the old generation of gamers. However, we're in our 30s and 40s and there's a new crop in the Gen Y and Millenials who are no where near as antisocial a group as we were.  Social experiences are where everything's headed as they become the target.  The old recluse gamer with only a few close friends or none at all in game is going to find themselves enjoying less and less as they're forced to be more and more social.

Fuck, this game even has a social ladder grind.  That should tell you something.  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 28, 2011, 06:35:33 AM
Played the first (?) Flash point.

Likely one of the best "Dungeon crawls" I have played, and mostly yes, because of the voice over. The VOs have a way of keeping things moving and interesting. Much nicer than walls of text. I enjoy that two players and companions are basically a full group ( of 4 ) too. I honestly thought we were going to fail hard core due to lack of other players, not knowing 2+ players were recommended. One criticism I have though, while I enjoy the scale of some of the environments/Citys, Some of the things you need are just to god dam far apart. Really, some areas/hubs have a ton of running to do.

The game also, desperately needs a cosmetics tab.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 28, 2011, 06:49:35 AM
I think if you are determined to see through the voiceovers you can get the base value of the game and hate it.

Then again, that never happened for me. I think the voiceovers also move things along in the story in a way that makes you care about your quests.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 28, 2011, 06:56:16 AM
The game also, desperately needs a cosmetics tab.

It wasn't going to launch with one because WoW ca 2006 didn't have one. That's basically their entire design philosophy.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 28, 2011, 07:03:48 AM
Quote
I don't get the "It's all an illusion" complaints.

For me it was just a matter of some emotional switch that got turned as I played. I knew in my head it was all illusory, but particularly after doing the same things over again a couple of times and having that demonstrated, the quest options just became tedious interruptions in gameplay. It's an emotional reaction, not something that has a logical basis to it.

I think where it really falls apart is repeating instances.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 28, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
I don't get the "It's all an illusion" complaints.

So are choices in single player games.  So is reading a book, or watching a movie, or television.  You want choice you have to create your own content or write your own story.  Everything else is just an illusion and caring about that character in their situation, nothing more.

I view the whole thing as a shared reading experience, like a book club in game form.  A missed mark if Bioware were designing for the old generation of gamers. However, we're in our 30s and 40s and there's a new crop in the Gen Y and Millenials who are no where near as antisocial a group as we were.  Social experiences are where everything's headed as they become the target.  The old recluse gamer with only a few close friends or none at all in game is going to find themselves enjoying less and less as they're forced to be more and more social.

Fuck, this game even has a social ladder grind.  That should tell you something.  

There are really only three questions you need to ask yourself about this game.

1.Do I like the DIKU model?
2.Do I like star wars?
3.Do I want to pay $15 a month to play it?

If you answered no to any of the following you may enjoy parts but chances are you won't stay with the game long.  If you answered yes, then rats off to ya, you found robot jesus.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 07:46:27 AM
I'm not a huge starwars fan, but I still like the whole scifi thing. I appreciate that everyone I've seen so far is wearing fucking pants or a robe. All the outfits just kind of work, though a few heavy armors seem to have odd bits coming out of them for no reason.

Weapon stowed graphics look silly for anything larger than a saber/pistol imo. I think the rifle ones work with a backpack, otherwise your gear just kind of chills in space behind you.

The DIKU needs some polish, but it gets away with hiding a lot of the odd bits behind visually interesting combat. A typical fight has blaster bolts going all over the place. Yes, they're cosmetic and useless, but I think it adds something to the immersion of the world.

The jedi sage's absorb shield talent that causes it to have a stun when broken is.. the worst graphical effect I've ever seen in a game. It's a flash of bright white when it breaks, which completely fucking blinds the player using it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 28, 2011, 07:50:30 AM
It's fair to say I've been highly skeptical about Bioware's ability to deliver the SWtOR experience as they've been describing it the past couple of years. I thought that attempting to voice-cast the entire game was folly and an act that while admirable in ambition would sorely lack in actuality and more to the point, irritate players.

I never played either of the KoTOR games and my experience with other Bioware titles is fairly limited, too. I played Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights and Mass Effect (which I still need to finish, some time) and that's pretty much it so I couldn't call myself a Bioware fan-boy. I'm a bit of a Star Wars dork, but only a bit. I had to look up half the player races in SWtOR, so that says something.

Either way, I'm pontificating. I played the beta this weekend. I like SWtOR. I didn't think I would, but I do. Yes, it's a DIKU that in many respects blatantly apes WoW's earlier days (which having just cancelled my WoW sub I don't think is a bad thing since that game and its developers have lost all sight of reason and fun lately) but I'm ok with that since I have managed to keep my DIKU count to a bare minimum over the years and while the game-style is old, give it a fresh setting and a delivery with panache and I'll be interested. For how long remains to be seen, but with the story lines tailored to each class/subclass I think that could be longer than I expect. All I know is, between saturday and sunday I think I've sunk a good 12 hours of game time in. That's a couple of play sessions I've not devoted to WoW in longer than I can remember.


I was pretty surprised at the 'only 4 base classes' thing; I didn't know about that till I played the game. I wonder how many people might actually be put off by it. I'm not bothered, they've done a very effective job of window dressing the same mechanics to feel different enough to be compelling to play for me.

The UI is fucking horrible. They need to XMLize that shit and fast, it's clunky, hard as hell to navigate and takes up an unreasonable ammount of screen space. I know hardcore WoW raiders out there who devote more space to mod windows than field of view might think I'm exaggerating but fuck you and your spread-sheet noise, I like pretty things. UI that gets in the way of my pretty things is bad.

Besides UI there's a few other niggles I have but which are beta-related and which are system related remains to be seen.

But I'm in. If there's still time to pre-order I think I'm going to do so, though since I'm on holiday pretty much the day after official launch, how much I can actually play till the new year is my only issue.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 28, 2011, 07:53:03 AM
Incidentally I ended up playing Sith Empire considerably more during beta, while I'm more likely to play Republic during Live as that's what Slap are doing. But I really got attached to my little Rattataki Sith Inquisitor. Cute character with a cheeky, clipped English accent and a very fun storyline surrounded by total dickbagss and decadently evil fatties. I don't know how much of my time I'll get to devote to the other side during Live, but I know I want to, now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 28, 2011, 08:09:00 AM
That's why I'm all in on Empire if I pick it up. Star Wars is stupid and goofy. It is, sorry. So while the Republic is all trying to be grave and serious about good guys and such, the Empire stuff is just over the top, campy, Hammer Horror fun. Everything Empire I've done revels in the goofiness of the entire thing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 08:18:31 AM
That's why I'm all in on Empire if I pick it up. Star Wars is stupid and goofy. It is, sorry. So while the Republic is all trying to be grave and serious about good guys and such, the Empire stuff is just over the top, campy, Hammer Horror fun. Everything Empire I've done revels in the goofiness of the entire thing.

I'm curious how camp evil it is. They're pretty much Space Nazi evil from the republic side's quests, but I just got the feeling they were.. racist idiots from the Sith starter area side. I also couldn't tell if the racist idiots in /general were just in character or not. :P


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2011, 08:30:48 AM
That's why I'm all in on Empire if I pick it up. Star Wars is stupid and goofy. It is, sorry. So while the Republic is all trying to be grave and serious about good guys and such, the Empire stuff is just over the top, campy, Hammer Horror fun. Everything Empire I've done revels in the goofiness of the entire thing.

I'm curious how camp evil it is. They're pretty much Space Nazi evil from the republic side's quests, but I just got the feeling they were.. racist idiots from the Sith starter area side. I also couldn't tell if the racist idiots in /general were just in character or not. :P

One of the early BH quests had me going :ye_gods: It wasn't just camp, it was cruel. Felt more like Hans Gruber than Arnold Toht.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 28, 2011, 08:32:02 AM
If you don't think using force lightning on a guy to make him talk about a brawl which got out of hand is campy, I don't know what to tell you. I can't take that seriously. The snarky British accent just turns it up to 11.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 08:35:57 AM
The only way to avoid the GCD is to either put huge cooldowns on things, or make everything have a cast time. The GCD is there to avoid "I press macro button, seven spells hit you instantly" issue with instants.

What? You mean you could do what every game designer before WoW did, you have a cast time (if necessary a pre and/or post effect cast time) set for each ability so you don't fall into a retarded position where designers feel every ability has to have exactly the GCD, or be an instant.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 08:36:47 AM
If you don't think using force lightning on a guy to make him talk about a brawl which got out of hand is campy, I don't know what to tell you. I can't take that seriously. The snarky British accent just turns it up to 11.

Pink force lightning no less.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 08:41:34 AM
Quote
I don't get the "It's all an illusion" complaints.

For me it was just a matter of some emotional switch that got turned as I played. I knew in my head it was all illusory, but particularly after doing the same things over again a couple of times and having that demonstrated, the quest options just became tedious interruptions in gameplay. It's an emotional reaction, not something that has a logical basis to it.

I think where it really falls apart is repeating instances.

The repeating thing is key.

In a normal bioware game you don't repeat shit 20 times.

To make this work properly, Bioware would have to start shovelling in new content at an insane rate. It is perfectly possible to do on the income they'll have *if* they were properly organised and prepared for it.

Unfortunately they are almost certainly configured to worry about high end raiding instead - because that is what WoW does.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 08:44:53 AM
The only way to avoid the GCD is to either put huge cooldowns on things, or make everything have a cast time. The GCD is there to avoid "I press macro button, seven spells hit you instantly" issue with instants.

What? You mean you could do what every game designer before WoW did, you have a cast time (if necessary a pre and/or post effect cast time) set for each ability so you don't fall into a retarded position where designers feel every ability has to have exactly the GCD, or be an instant.

.. the GCD IS a post-effect cast time.

Every ability has either a cast time (pre effect), or a default post-effect cast time (the fucking GCD)

It's the same for everything because, well, it just mechanically makes more sense than "this has a .7s post effect cast time, this one has a .4s, this one a 1.8s.."

The GCD is essentially a way for melees to have "cast times" that are backloaded. It feels better than sitting there watching a cast bar run down while trying to chase shit around.

I guess I'm failing to see your complaint about the GCD except that it should be slightly different for some abilities for some random complexity reason?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 08:45:13 AM
Game is still fun.  Would it have been better if they took some chances?  Certainly.  As one of those old timer solo types I changed my tactics and found a person to play with.  That makes a huge difference.  We get to laugh at dialogue and say outrageous things.  You also get social points which are important if you want any of that gear (it is not for companions).  The stories and choices do not tend to be outstanding but they are reasonable.  There are funny lines, you get a range of companions to suit your play style and personality and progress is not raid driven.  I am not sure if you can raid complete quests, that could be interesting for a guild.  

I still make a terrible Sith.  For whatever reason the mindset of the people who wrote those quests eludes me.  Are you psychotic?  Even the opening planet bothers me.  If there is some super awesome ancient Sith artifact in the ruins why wouldn't a Sith Lord just get it himself?  Yea yea challenge and worthiness.  Fuck that, give me power?  The Sith stories may be interesting but the world interaction struck me as weaker.

The space combat may not be Xwing vs Tie Fighter but it is simple and distracting enough.  That is all it was meant to be.  You pick up some bonuses and titles and get xp.  Unlike previous Star Wars MMO's this game actually has ships so you get the STAR in STAR WARS.  The crafting system is still maturing.  It looks like you can find some nice patterns that would be useful.  Last night I found a pattern for a heavy helm that has 307 ac and 3 open mod slots.  Oh, Cybertech also covers vehicle stuff (yes there are at least custom ground vehicle patterns, dunno about ship mods).

On flashpoints.  The first one is the best by far.  I still run Esseles in the 30's and just warn people they will not get kill xp.  You get bonus xp, your dark/light points and a ton of social points.  I have not run all of the flashpoints yet, but so far the rest are semi mindless grinds.  I have no experience with raids or pvp.  

They still have some kinks to work out.  Commendations are not terribly useful.  You have a bunch at the end of a planet, then you go to a new planet and the gear is just as good or better just from running around.  Maybe use them for companion stuff or a good mod?  It needs a little work.

The game is Diku but it has redeeming features, at least for now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
Sith Inquisitor torture scene is a bit campy, a bit torture-y. They off screen the torture bit IIRC, the shocking him thing is not the torture option. I get the feeling force lightning is just the Sith version of a curse word from how often it's tossed around.

The "holy shit evil" to me is things like the Republic side view of them, where they're actually running death camps and piles of bones on furnaces. The "We are space Nazis" thing is pretty heavy handed.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on November 28, 2011, 08:48:53 AM
The repeating thing is key.

In a normal bioware game you don't repeat shit 20 times.
This.

The "generic" quests  ll over the place started to bother me on my second playthrough (brought a marauder to 12 before I started an inquisitor). Read in the general chat that it might be possible to JUST do the story-related quests, but as others have said, that might stop very soon after the first planet. And fuck fedex quests (even if they have me running around to show me a few places at a quest hub).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 28, 2011, 08:51:43 AM
Sith Inquisitor torture scene is a bit campy, a bit torture-y. They off screen the torture bit IIRC, the shocking him thing is not the torture option. I get the feeling force lightning is just the Sith version of a curse word from how often it's tossed around.

The "holy shit evil" to me is things like the Republic side view of them, where they're actually running death camps and piles of bones on furnaces. The "We are space Nazis" thing is pretty heavy handed.

On the flip side, the Sith Warrior questline shows Jedi's as weak-minded fools who keep trying to talk about serenity and patience while they are being mind-fucked by the strong Sith.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 28, 2011, 09:11:00 AM
The game also, desperately needs a cosmetics tab.

It has one but it's not obvious at first.   Basically every blue item with mod slots has a base armor/dps level.   If you put in a mod though it OVERRIDES the armor/dps of the item.   So say if you got a high level purple you could put a level 1 mod in it and it's dps would suddenly suck or vice versa.   

I don't know why they excluded common greens from the system but it doesn't really matter after you've got several blues you like the looks of.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 28, 2011, 09:17:34 AM
That's silly.

I just want them to copy LOTRO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 09:27:08 AM
Someone in the other thread indicated that system doesn't work as you level up anyway.  something about how raid gear (and I assume pvp gear) would need to be used instead because mods can't come close to their stats.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 28, 2011, 09:30:06 AM
I'm curious to see how much high-end "rare" drops from raids and such are going to have Light/Dark requirements as well.  It could really suck that you can't use some amazing huge upgrade of an item because you selected Light story options instead of Dark.

On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on November 28, 2011, 09:46:35 AM
On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.

So THATS what it is. I /whispered a few guys on the second planet that they prob. got a lightsaber after they left the starter planet and should equip it.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 09:49:09 AM
Token gear itemization is odd. On the third planet I was flipping through what to spend all my tokens on, and they have FOUR offhand only lightsabers. Hokay... I get that the token theme for that planet was "offhand items", it just seemed like you'd need one or two. An END heavy one, and a STR heavy one.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 28, 2011, 09:50:01 AM
Finally logged in for the first time in months.  The system performance is hugely improved and there were no visible signs of lag.  The loot indication delay isn't nearly as bad as it was in earlier phases.

I tried the sith warrior.  While the saber combat is pretty entertaining to watch, I think I'll stick with my bounty hunter.  I liked the voice acting better, I'd rather shoot shit with missiles and whatnot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 09:57:40 AM
I have seen precious little in the way of drops for things like Dark Side Jedi since they put in the crystal color restrictions.  Maybe one saber and an inquisitor pants pattern?  Almost none of my gear has had light side restrictions either.  Maybe I am simply not noticing.

I have found myself yanking out mods to use on other items.

My character has no bonus ugly crystal.  Is that just on new pc's?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 10:14:48 AM
Just new PCs.

I forgot to mention one hugely annoying thing for Jedi Knights.  Your first companion is a ranged tank, but everything closes in on him for melee.   so you either never use force jump or you have to stand way back and then jump in after sending the pet in.  Was a bit of a nuisance to me.  Then again, when you first get him, he's wasting 3-4 mobs in the time you kill one.    :uhrr: :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 10:15:50 AM
Light/Dark seems to be mid/high level I think. I saw a dark1 item drop from the esseles flashpoint, and a light2 item for sale in the fleet vendors with a minlevel of 28 or so.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 10:29:13 AM
Well, my Sage is 38.  Maybe my duo buddy is noticing more, I will ask.

Funny about the Jedi Knight tank you get, as a Consular I wish, I DREAM of a ranged tank.  Qyzen does fine but his jump range is limited and not NBA JAM inspired like Jedi force jump.  His reaction times are just, slow.  Reaction on a ranged tank may not be faster but you skip the whole distance problem.

Tonight I should finish Balmorra!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 28, 2011, 10:33:18 AM
On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.

First thing I said when I socketed that thing was: "Wait, did I forget to equip my lightsaber? No. Wow that looks exactly like a vibroblade. That really blows."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: PalmTrees on November 28, 2011, 10:34:11 AM
Only got to play an agent up to 10 due to the holiday weekend, but I liked it enough to keep my pre-order. Had some quibbles with the story but I liked it well enough. I'm just fine with diku, global cool downs, etc.

What really got to me were the open dungeons. I walked to all my non-instanced quest objectives on a carpet of corpses (even at 2:00 am eastern). Only getting to fight about 1 in 5 spawns when I was lucky enough to be there for a re-pop.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 10:39:51 AM
On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.

First thing I said when I socketed that thing was: "Wait, did I forget to equip my lightsaber? No. Wow that looks exactly like a vibroblade. That really blows."

Wait until you see the WoW sword(s?)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on November 28, 2011, 10:42:31 AM
What really got to me were the open dungeons. I walked to all my non-instanced quest objectives on a carpet of corpses (even at 2:00 am eastern). Only getting to fight about 1 in 5 spawns when I was lucky enough to be there for a re-pop.
At least we all know this is going to be a rather shortlived problem.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Engels on November 28, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
So from what I'm hearing, folks are saying that as well written as the story lines are, they are finite, and that the immersion of them breaks down when you have to do repetitive 'kill 10 foozles' content to push the story arc ahead, is that right?

I'm thinking that any MMO that hangs its hat on a quest storyline by itself is cruizin' for a bruisin'.

How about the content itself, the mobs, the environments, the 'dungeons'? Are they rich enough to sustain engagement without the story lines of your character's quest? The reason I ask is because I believe that what makes or breaks an MMO is the depth of the world itself, regardless of how much your own toon's story is catered to.

Back in the bad old days of EQ, the quests were not that much about your character. You had a choice to advance your toon by doing a quest, which may or may not advance you along a faction line (Dwarves vs Giants in Velius, for instance), but by and large, your choices were actually narrowing your ability to access the world, not really enhancing your immersion. Entire guilds had to decide if they were Giant or Overthere or whathaveyou, to the exclusion of significant amounts of content.

Thankfully the content of EQ was so enormous that narrowing your choices along a particular faction really didn't affect the enjoyment of the game in a significant way.

So, by the same token, I'm interested in hearing about non-quest related content. Is there a sense of the world around you operating despite your interaction with it?

This is something that I feel modern MMOs get entirely wrong; they try to focus so much on how you're a precious special flower (which simply cannot be coded) that they forget to make the world itself the focus of interest.

To illustrate: My dark elf shadowknight had a bad childhood and wanted revenge against the bad Qeynos guards that diddled her in prison or whatevs, but OMGWTFBBQ I just got to face off against motherfin' Rallos Zek, the God of War. The latter was always more compelling.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 10:53:07 AM
I'm not entirely sure I can answer what you're asking as I only got to the 2nd world on 2 toons.  It felt like the Star Wars universe and that things were going on around me, but that could be my  :heart: of KOTOR as a setting itself.   I certainly don't know if you get to wander back and around later on, which is what gave EQ part of that world feeling.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on November 28, 2011, 10:58:46 AM
I played my Jedi Shadow up to 16 last night (again), and I hope to get into the 20s sometime by the end of next weekend.

I have to say Coruscant is fucking awful.  It's one reason to have sprint at level 10 and not 14.  Fuck all that running around.

Assholes.

There is also an issue somewhere around level 14 or 15 when you go into the Justicar area on Coruscant and you suddenly get access to like 6 or so quests all in one area, and you end up sitting there listening to some asshole who's whining that their brother is missing and it ends up being a quick fedex like quest.  That shit I skip.

The game suffers when you have TOO many quests to do.  You stop caring and it ruins the story telling element.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 28, 2011, 11:01:46 AM
Just messing around with character creation again and I think my main problem with SWtOR is always going to be the lack of interesting PC races.

Setting aside the mind-bogglingly awful Miraluka (yay! Humans! Completely and utterly human! But they have no eyes! So they're humans in blindfolds! That's a fucking race, right?), pretty much everything besides Twi'lek is a human with an anime skin colour. There's no difference in body structure, they almost all have the requisite facial features which all correspond to human expectations... there's nothing different to play.

This is made all the more damning every time I run into a Nautolan or Cathar or Togruta that can clearly speak perfectly good Galactic Basic. They're not completely outlandish - they're all bipedal, they have emotive faces - but whyever is it they chose the fucking Blue Man Group people Chiss over significantly more iconic races I will never work out.

Having played the game some now, I'm even going to say that the very good argument about voice acting being an issue when it comes to racial choices isn't that important. All non-galactic speaking races come with subtitles anyway, so what's wrong with presenting my PC's dialogue choices in english and then have them spoken in an appropriate form of gibberish? That way races like Rodians and Trandoshans who are, again, immensely iconic, work fine within the precepts of the game.

I really like playing the game, but I see very little reason for half the racial choices to be there. Dull, dull, dull.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 11:09:28 AM
Actually, there are not a TON of strict kill 10x quests.  That type of thing shows up as incidental bonus xp quests that complete in the background of what you are doing.  You get plenty of 'recover weapon crates' or 'disarm bomb' quests but they tend to involve static world objects that respawn reasonably quickly.  Overall the pace of what you are doing flows well.  There have been some situations where quest items did not drop before my bonus kill x had been finished but it seems they put effort into making your quest item farming not be such a drag.  In addition, you are often contacted by holo and get voice stuff to change the flow.  Even if it is just giving you the next objective it is far more compelling.  

The worlds can seem huge or cramped.  Nar Shadda is all corridors with some big rooms.  Tatooine is wide open with a few structures.  Given the art style it feels pretty good.  There are ties to previous games (lots of lore on Taris for example).  If you want to go cron hunting you get to play Mario Brothers!  Sometimes that will even involve a partner.  

The worlds are constantly in motion around you.  Various factions will be in shootouts near exists etc,  ships will take off and sometimes explode depending on what quests players are doing etc.  There will even be neutral stuff you can attack if you like.    


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 28, 2011, 11:28:43 AM
Quote
ow about the content itself, the mobs, the environments, the 'dungeons'? Are they rich enough to sustain engagement without the story lines of your character's quest? The reason I ask is because I believe that what makes or breaks an MMO is the depth of the world itself, regardless of how much your own toon's story is catered to.

I don't think there really is a world other than the quest storylines. The questlines are far more integrated into the game and it's far more on rails than WoW. One of the things that felt most breaking of immersion in the dungeons was that they were part of your storyline and if you wanted to repeat them, you took the quest a second time and do all the quest cutscenes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 11:41:33 AM
You can repeat your storyline quests?  I have found the urge to repeat quests (heroics and flashpoints) minimal at best.  Sure I will help people get through them but repeating them for drops is a non issue.  You never need to repeat a quest for farm purposes.  Your time is better spent doing other things.  There is no repeat quest grinding for faction, for example.  

Even in areas with specific drops and commendations like the Esseles and Black Talon flashpoints there is no need to grind for anything there.  It is an option, one you will not suffer for ignoring.  Better gear is on the way.

Edit:

I should add that you do not need to repeat quests for xp either.  We have skipped most Heroic 4's while doing all the content on a planet and it puts us over the intended level.  I will be level 39-40 before finishing Balmorra (aside from bonus series, whatever level that is).  This puts me on the high end of the level range for the next planet.  There is plenty of xp available if you want to skip a few quests.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 28, 2011, 11:42:38 AM
On a minor note, does anyone else think the pre-order color crystal is just, BAD.  It makes sabers black/yellow so they look almost exactly the same as the yellow training sticks you start out with and the same as what most NPCs I've seen use so far.
I thought it was a cool novelty. I found an artificer to make me a couple red crystals for my Dark Jedi asap, though. I'll take the stat hit for a red saber (+2 end vs +4 end). You can buy the yellow/black crystal on the space station but I'm not sure if it's restricted.

Kildorn, the commendation sabers for Knights was basically str-focused or end-focused, but also light/dark: four saber options. Armor is even more options because Guards wear heavy and Sents wear medium. I'm ok with lots of options!

My Knight is only level 16, have only seen a double-bladed dark saber drop (from the sith in the flashpoint). Bought my dark single saber from the commendation vendor and my dark gloves from the dark vendor.

Not sure what tactics you're using Merusk. I always open with force jump into the middle of the pack and then sweep to grab aggro (and stun and set up my free attack), don't really pay attention to R2 T7, but he always seems to do a force jump in next to me at some point. Been using the shadow chick since I got her, mostly because I'm in a tanking setup. The dps is nice, but would've liked a sage instead, I think.

Matt, Thrawn > Ackbar!

(edit) If it weren't a time-restricted test, I would've run the Esseles again. The boy (and girl) scouts I was with picked all the light side choices. As much as I really enjoyed the varied group, I ended up with the light side title for


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 11:43:20 AM
Yeah the Esseles thing I wouldn't consider to be part of MY storyline. I mean, it has a story, yes, and it might be one that goes through the various flashpoints (that Grand Moff dude seems like a recurring sort of character).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ginaz on November 28, 2011, 11:46:32 AM
Have they said how they plan to do the whole head start thing?  I won't be able to play on 20 Dec. since I'm going home for Christmas but I'd like to get in and at least down load the game and name my characters before I leave.  On the plus side, I'll have about 2 1/2 weeks off after I come back (I'm off work for a grand total of 30 days :thumbs_up:).  Lots of time to catch up.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 11:47:32 AM
This is made all the more damning every time I run into a Nautolan or Cathar or Togruta that can clearly speak perfectly good Galactic Basic. They're not completely outlandish - they're all bipedal, they have emotive faces - but whyever is it they chose the fucking Blue Man Group people Chiss over significantly more iconic races I will never work out.


Hate to say it but you're showing either your age or your lack of SW fandom.  The Chiss are in because they're ultra-badass in the EU and Thrawn is a very popular - if not iconic by now - character.  At least to the same level as Maul and the Zebra..zab...horn people.  I get that they picked the Miraluka because Vision was a KOTOR favorite, but, yeah, it's always been lame that they're just humans with veils.  I'm puzzled at the inclusion of the green-skinned folks who only ever appeared as one Jedi in EP2.  That Jedi isn't even featured that much in the cartoon series as far as I know.  Seems an odd choice over just about anything else.

I'll fully agree they should have picked a few non-human races, though.  Trandoshan and Wookiee at the very least if they HAVE to keep some part of the human vector because of their modeling skeletons. (I'm betting this human-body crap is because of the 3rd party engine stuff someone else mentioned.)  This is the type of bush league stuff we were expecting when we saw the failed devs from other MMOs being hired to form Bioware Austin.

Still, I have hopes we'll get some of the more interesting non-humans in time.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 11:49:43 AM
How are you surprised that the Orions are in a Star Wars game? :P


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 28, 2011, 11:53:47 AM
Tried out the Alderaan and Voidstar PVP Warzones for a while last night.  Not sure if or how it balances levels out since at level 12 I was in there with people that were a lot higher (highest I noticed was 27), but after I got the basics down it was pretty fun.  Thought it was nice that it rewarded me somehow for defending one of the capture points on Alderaan so I didn't feel like I was completely missing out while defending.  XP seemed to come pretty quickly, but that might have been due to constantly being on the winning side.  Seemed to me like a good way to level for a bit in order to bypass some quests, leaving them fresh when I go through with another character.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 28, 2011, 11:56:48 AM
A side note related to the alien races conversation going on, I think I'd go nuts if I teamed up in a Flashpoint with three characters who speak in alien gibberish.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2011, 11:58:56 AM
Not sure what tactics you're using Merusk. I always open with force jump into the middle of the pack and then sweep to grab aggro (and stun and set up my free attack), don't really pay attention to R2 T7, but he always seems to do a force jump in next to me at some point. Been using the shadow chick since I got her, mostly because I'm in a tanking setup. The dps is nice, but would've liked a sage instead, I think.

Well it was before I could pick an AC so that could be the difference.  Running in with him I found if I force-jumped then tried to sweep or force-push he'd already tossed out his taunt and drawn 2 of them off of me.. then he'd focus the one I was attacking and it was "run back to the bot, stabbing the generic attack button on the way"  I found it was less frustrating to just let him pull then jump in on them.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 28, 2011, 12:31:25 PM
Someone in the other thread indicated that system doesn't work as you level up anyway.  something about how raid gear (and I assume pvp gear) would need to be used instead because mods can't come close to their stats.

If you can keep your mods updated, you can use any moddable gear for pretty much your entire leveling career; if you're lucky, you can find a lowish-level craftable armor set you like the look of and pay a crafter an arm and a leg to craft you up a purple quality set of it, which should make it all moddable.

I think what Bioware's said - and looking at the raiding tier gear on vendors seems to corroborate it - is that they want crafted/modded items to be the go-to stuff up until level cap, where you then use a crafted set to get into raiding. After that, it's the incredibly hideous tier gear or bust. Hopefully the mods in the tier gear that comprise its stats can be removed and slapped into something less WoW Shoulderpad-y.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 12:35:42 PM
So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 28, 2011, 12:38:46 PM
If you can keep your mods updated, you can use any moddable gear for pretty much your entire leveling career; if you're lucky, you can find a lowish-level craftable armor set you like the look of and pay a crafter an arm and a leg to craft you up a purple quality set of it, which should make it all moddable.

But isn't the base rating/AC of a modifiable piece of armor fixed? What good is swapping out a mod if my level 10 armor is still level 10 in terms of its base numbers?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 28, 2011, 12:42:59 PM
Nope, mods increase that stuff. There are specific Armor/DMG mods for it.

Sometimes the display will lag and you will have move the item around in your inventory once or twice to see the new values.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 12:58:31 PM
So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 01:02:01 PM
Well, there might be some variables in it based on the items level and quality.  Items with 3 empty mod slots will still have a base AC, not all empty items are equal


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 28, 2011, 01:05:58 PM
So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

Nope, though when you craft a suit of armor, it comes with its own mods last I checked.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: jakonovski on November 28, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on November 28, 2011, 01:15:40 PM
I'm quite interested to read the inevitable "post-lauch plans" announcement that will be posted on the official website/forums sometime after the 20th of December.

Yes, first we'll surely get the usual slew of hotfixes, but afterwards, what do you think Bioware is planning?

- Of course, take more operations/flashpoints/BGs for granted. But beside these things?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 28, 2011, 01:16:30 PM
Space combat revamp will be high on that list I hope.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 28, 2011, 01:16:35 PM
So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

Depending on when you pre-ordered, you could get in as early as 12/15 and as late as 12/20  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 01:16:41 PM
So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

The amount of early access you get is determined by how early you pre-ordered, up to a maximum of 5 days early. It is hard to speculate at this point where a new pre-order might get to start.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 01:20:20 PM
That's why I'm all in on Empire if I pick it up. Star Wars is stupid and goofy. It is, sorry. So while the Republic is all trying to be grave and serious about good guys and such, the Empire stuff is just over the top, campy, Hammer Horror fun. Everything Empire I've done revels in the goofiness of the entire thing.

I'm curious how camp evil it is. They're pretty much Space Nazi evil from the republic side's quests, but I just got the feeling they were.. racist idiots from the Sith starter area side. I also couldn't tell if the racist idiots in /general were just in character or not. :P

Some of it it campy, some of it is "Dude what? Those are my choices? Hnnngh!" when you're someone who could barely play through as a renegade in ME2 once. The inquisitor, though, seems to know exactly what sort of universe s/he is in, and it is fucking delightful.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 28, 2011, 01:29:12 PM
So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

Nope, though when you craft a suit of armor, it comes with its own mods last I checked.

Only if the armor is of certain quality, usually purple (which takes a shitload of time and expensive resources to grind out the schematic for). Everything of lower quality is pre-statted with normal stuff.

You also can't craft any lightsaber models, so your only option is to find a hilt you like the look and sound of and upgrade that.

The way things are laid out is this:

  • Synthweavers make standard armor (chest, head, legs, hands, feet, wrists) of all three proficiencies (light/med/heavy) for all Force users.
  • Artificers make color crystals (which are used in all weapons, not just lightsabers), lightsaber hilts (the item mod which alters the base damage and stats of a saber, not the equippable weapon itself), Enhancement mods for all items (they're the baseline +endurance stuff), and all non-weapon off-hand items (shield generators for each tanking class, non-shield power generators for the DPS specs of each tanking class, healer generators/foci, etc.).
  • Armormechs are like Synthweavers, except they make medium/heavy armor filling the same slots for the two non-Force classes.
  • Cybertechs make earpiece gear for all classes and specs, all Droid armor (which is otherwise extremely expensive/difficult/impossible to get), Armoring mods (which boost the base Armor and stats of moddable armor) for all classes, and Modification mods for all moddable items (which further provide extra stats and go in every item from a lightsaber to a pair of boots).
  • Armstechs make all blasters, vibroswords (which practically nobody in their right mind will ever use, except for the maybe two companions who tank with them), and blaster barrels, which upgrade blaster base damage.
  • Biochemists make extremely powerful medpacs (including awesome ones that you can use on other party members), stat-boosting stims, and Implant slot items for all classes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: jakonovski on November 28, 2011, 01:30:15 PM
So what happened with the limited early access to some pre-orderers? Cuz I might be persuaded to do that if I get to play early (yes I know I've lambasted this game before).

The amount of early access you get is determined by how early you pre-ordered, up to a maximum of 5 days early. It is hard to speculate at this point where a new pre-order might get to start.

Fuck, this game does its absolute best to make me not buy it. I will though, but no point in preordering.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on November 28, 2011, 01:32:12 PM
I'm quite interested to read the inevitable "post-lauch plans" announcement that will be posted on the official website/forums sometime after the 20th of December.

Yes, first we'll surely get the usual slew of hotfixes, but afterwards, what do you think Bioware is planning?

- Of course, take more operations/flashpoints/BGs for granted. But beside these things?
- A better UI/add-on functionality.
- Filling the inevitable gaps in mid-to-high level levelling content.
- Nerfs to that one awesome spec that everyone plays.
- An xp nerf.
- Nerfs to crafted gear.
- Getting the anti-clownsuit button working again.
- Nerfs to non-clownsuit items.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 28, 2011, 01:34:24 PM
My girlfriend is convinced that EA is going to make Bioware put the anti-clown-suit button back in only if they charge for its use via RMT.

No particular reason she feels that way, but she has that sinking feeling.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: jakonovski on November 28, 2011, 01:40:51 PM
Ok, what's the anti-clownsuit button?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Bungee on November 28, 2011, 01:41:34 PM
Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?

It certainly made me more likely to start playing wow again....  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 28, 2011, 01:50:39 PM
Ok, what's the anti-clownsuit button?


There is/was/will be again a little option in the social preference menu, that let you auto colormatch your armor to your breastplates color. They turned it off for Beta so they could get actual feedback on how the armor pieces actually look with that option off, since just about *everyone* turns that option on and never looks back.


So say I'm a Trooper with a orange helmet, green chest, purple pants and blue boots. With this little toggle option on, all of my armor would be green. Same models and paint patterns, but with a uniform shade of green to match my breastplate's green. It REALLY smoothed out the whole clownsuit issue. An appearance tab is obviously still the better option in the long run, but this little toggle made it so I didn't hate myself every time I got a new upgrade.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on November 28, 2011, 01:52:05 PM
Ok, what's the anti-clownsuit button?

It was a toggle in the preferences that would take what ever item was in your "chest" slot, and copy the texture and color to all your other visible items. It was removed two beta weekends ago. The rumor is that its to help them find items with missing textures. That sounds a bit far fetched, but I cant think of a better reason.

Although RMT might be one.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on November 28, 2011, 02:01:30 PM
The color match button's removal and subsequent discussion/bitchfest was also accompanied by a couple posts from Georg "German Ghostcrawler" Zoeller saying that if people wanted the option's return, to post a lot about it.

Which leads me to believe it wasn't done for entirely datamining/bugfixing purposes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 02:09:56 PM
So wait, if I pop a high rating mod into my lightsaber, it's damage rating changes?

If so: what the shit is the point of gear crafting? Mod crafting would be the only actual market.

Cosmetic look I guess. But are mods not made by the same people that make the stuff that the mods go into? I haven't really looked at crafting.

Armstech made barrel mods, but the others came from.. artificing? Something like that.

I figured I could alter items with mods, but not change the core stats so I wind up with a level 50 version of my level 10 lightsaber or whatever.

I guess this system would make a lot more sense to me if the mods said things like "lightsaber damage: X-Y", I thought things like dps were static.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on November 28, 2011, 02:10:04 PM
Just new PCs.

I forgot to mention one hugely annoying thing for Jedi Knights.  Your first companion is a ranged tank, but everything closes in on him for melee.   so you either never use force jump or you have to stand way back and then jump in after sending the pet in.  Was a bit of a nuisance to me.  Then again, when you first get him, he's wasting 3-4 mobs in the time you kill one.    :uhrr: :ye_gods:

That's not them closing in. That's a "Tow Cable" ability that functions like the Death Knight Death Grip ability. Turn it off active and you can Force Jump to your hearts content.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 02:10:30 PM
Yeah it isn't very evident that the mods actually upgrade the base item along with their stat mods.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ghost on November 28, 2011, 02:10:38 PM
This thread (and game) appear to be really going places.   :grin:



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
Never used the option.  I make fun of my mismatched companions anyway.  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 28, 2011, 02:13:31 PM
There's only one mod that increases the stats of the base item, it's the one that has a "rating".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 02:14:17 PM
I do find it funny that in a world with lightsabers, the crafting system has a whole mess of melee weapons to make, but not a single lightsaber.

Get your companion weapons and vibroknives! Nothing anyone else will ever use!

Also that a "techblade" means anything from a giant staff to a vibrosword model to a really mean looking actual sword.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Hawkbit on November 28, 2011, 02:27:52 PM
I feel a bit left behind for the first time in a while.  I simply don't understand the love-froth going on with this game.  It is bland, ugly and almost entirely derivative.  Admittedly, the lightside/darkside conversation dynamic is new and interesting.  But so were RIFTs the first time I saw them.  After a few days of both it will be tiresome. 

I've found a real appreciation in EverQuest over the past few years, although I can't bring myself to play it again.  I suspect it comes back to what Engels posted on the last page; modern MMOs make the player into a hero, when in fact it isn't possible to have a server full of heroes. 

I'm not generally a big fan of shitting all over things other people are having fun with, but this game is a new low in online games.  It utterly fails to innovate and inspire.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 02:29:28 PM
Why should I care about innovation? Serious question. Nearly all of the best games I've played have been iterative, not innovative.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ghost on November 28, 2011, 02:31:01 PM
Warhammer Online had some very innovative stuff and it was a pile of shit.  Of course I'm expecting this game to be a flaming pile of shit just like WHO, but maybe it won't be that bad.  Rift is the ceiling for it though-  mildly interesting for about an hour but bland as hell after that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 28, 2011, 02:37:48 PM
All I know is that after the beta, I want to log in and play tonight.

But I have to wait.  :angryfist:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 02:38:17 PM
Yep. I had to force myself to stop playing it when it won't 'count'.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 02:39:08 PM
If the thought of Diku makes you violently ill the chances of this game being enjoyable are decreased.  That is not a surprise.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 28, 2011, 02:42:49 PM
For me the game was exactly like Warhammer. I played it obsessively until the very second when I just stopped and never wanted to see it again.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 28, 2011, 02:49:41 PM
I'll fully agree they should have picked a few non-human races, though.  Trandoshan and Wookiee at the very least if they HAVE to keep some part of the human vector because of their modeling skeletons. (I'm betting this human-body crap is because of the 3rd party engine stuff someone else mentioned.)  This is the type of bush league stuff we were expecting when we saw the failed devs from other MMOs being hired to form Bioware Austin.

Still, I have hopes we'll get some of the more interesting non-humans in time.


The reason they originally gave was because of PC romances which means limiting the PC race to something humanoid. With a face. Because getting it on with an Ithorian is just :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: taolurker on November 28, 2011, 03:42:13 PM
Thoughts? Did the Beta make you more or less likely to play?
As I already noted on the landmark 400th page, I really didn't see why I would be paying a subscription to this. I also don't see the box price being worth it either because I see them having a retention problem and major price drops, free trials and/or Pay to Crush coming to this very soon in it's lifespan.

The storylines are very cool, and I can see playing through them, and the cut-scenes are cool, but I really don't like the solo along together feel it had, or the limited enjoyment and set path the storyline would bring. I am an explorer who wants to just wander around, not be led by every single thing I do.

There are a number of us on this board who liked SWG, as there are many who hated it. What do people who liked SWG think of the SWTOR experience?
I was a huge fan of SWG, and played it both before the NGE and after, but this game isn't that. I enjoyed SWG because I was a hoarding, crafting, sandbox player who enjoyed interior decorating and the occasional hunt for crafting materials. All I know of crafting is what I've read, so I can't say if I would enjoy it. This game is less of everything I want in a SW MMO game, and could've been single player KOTOR with enhanced graphics.

This game is what Mass Effect is, with an overall slower feel and dated looking (catoony?) graphics. The benefit I could see to this game is grouping with others, but honestly what I saw was a cut scene heavy single player experience with multiplayer slapped onto it. The MMO is an after-thought, as is much of the UI, animations and feel because of this.

I might get it eventually when the box is less than $20, and do not ever see me subscribing to this. Massive Bioware fail IMO, and EA doesn't like bad subscription stats.


To those of you who are playing or had lots of time in beta: What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to? I can't say I want to play it more than a week, possibly two, and I'm interested in what playability you see that I don't.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 03:44:28 PM
Yep. I had to force myself to stop playing it when it won't 'count'.

I logged in tonight to play the first three or so missions of every arch/sex just to see how the acting fit and the general feel. But I'm mostly just going to pretend the beta ended last night and wait for release now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 03:45:32 PM
I'll fully agree they should have picked a few non-human races, though.  Trandoshan and Wookiee at the very least if they HAVE to keep some part of the human vector because of their modeling skeletons. (I'm betting this human-body crap is because of the 3rd party engine stuff someone else mentioned.)  This is the type of bush league stuff we were expecting when we saw the failed devs from other MMOs being hired to form Bioware Austin.

Still, I have hopes we'll get some of the more interesting non-humans in time.


The reason they originally gave was because of PC romances which means limiting the PC race to something humanoid. With a face. Because getting it on with an Ithorian is just :uhrr:

No T7 romance, no peace.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 28, 2011, 03:49:01 PM
Got my first ship on a character tonight as well as having the 2nd droid companion from crew skills, was a nice step up.  Yes the space battles are just on-rails shooters, but it really opens up a lot of potential and it was a really refreshing change from running errands on Coursant.  Also having my own mobile "headquarters", being able to upgrade my ship, etc, were nice.  So many little bugs in the game, was really annoying having a companion appearing over and over on my ship because he returned from a crew skill mission while I was flying.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 28, 2011, 04:23:42 PM
I thought it was hilarious seeing my companion flying around in space.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 28, 2011, 04:28:27 PM
Hate to say it but you're showing either your age or your lack of SW fandom.  The Chiss are in because they're ultra-badass in the EU and Thrawn is a very popular - if not iconic by now - character.

I don't know who the fuck Thrawn is in the EU, but if he's why we've been lumped with these charmless blue goons, he can go fuck himself :D

Quote
Still, I have hopes we'll get some of the more interesting non-humans in time.

Yeah, I can hope but it smacks to me of the WoW devs saying they'd make Goblins a playable race soon before WoW even went live. Cue 6 years later...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on November 28, 2011, 04:38:25 PM
What drove me nuts where the oneliners all the other player companions fired of all the time. I sure hope that was a bug not a feature.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 04:39:57 PM
I hope that's a bug too, because I am already sick to death of Mako and Vette.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 28, 2011, 04:43:56 PM
How can you be sick of Lacey Chabert?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 28, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
To those of you who are playing or had lots of time in beta: What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to? I can't say I want to play it more than a week, possibly two, and I'm interested in what playability you see that I don't.

Roughly, this MMORPG starts off as a Bioware RPG (lite) with some MMO elements mixed in, and transitions to a MMO with some Bioware RPG elements mixed in. The amount of time focussed on your own personal story and character development diminishes and the amount of time spent doing more typical MMORPG tasks, such as travelling, bland quests (with VO), heroic dungeon/instances, etc. increases. I think this makes the early levels fairly replayable, I think few people will mind levelling up characters on the different sides and starting planets, however I'd guess that you'd have to be a real DIKU MMO fan to go through the higher planets repeatedly, especially as some of their MMORPG elements seem stuck in the past.

In my second playthrough of the same class I could discern few differences in the experience. You might get a few different lines of dialogue, but I think significant tangible differences can be quite rare, though this might depend on the class story.

Summary: I think early levels will provide replayability but further in there's less to be had. There's tons of "gameplay" to be had, but less unique gameplay than you might expect.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 04:53:28 PM
How can you be sick of Lacey Chabert?

I dunno which one that is. But it's because I've heard them say the same three things 349861827436825683456236 times.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on November 28, 2011, 04:58:01 PM
How can you be sick of Lacey Chabert?

I dunno which one that is. But it's because I've heard them say the same three things 349861827436825683456236 times.

"Boom!"


I  :heart: Vette.  She makes my Sith Warrior want to be a better man.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on November 28, 2011, 05:15:34 PM
I'll definitely enjoy this game at release: in the end, I managed to play only the Trooper to 12 (did The Esseles flashpoint) and a Sith Warrior to 6.

The flashpoint was great fun with the 3 ppl I grouped with (PUG), reminded me a lot of the same fun I had running the campaign missions in Guild Wars. I'm quite engaged in the story and atmosphere, I really lke everything I've seen and can't wait to play again.

In other words, exactly was I was expecting from this Bioware product: couldn't care less about min/max or diku play, just let me get involved with the stories, crafting, general atmosphere with a good dose of RP here and there :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 05:22:03 PM
To those of you who are playing or had lots of time in beta: What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to? I can't say I want to play it more than a week, possibly two, and I'm interested in what playability you see that I don't.

Star Wars WoW? I have played WoW pretty consistently for seven years. I don't see a lot about this to make me think it couldn't have similar legs. It will probably take me months just to get through all 8 stories.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on November 28, 2011, 05:28:39 PM
New build tomorrow for general testers (sigh...:P) ; looks like it's going to be the "lauch" build:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=683363

Quote
Hello Testers!

We are preparing to deploy a new build of the game for testing! At 12:00AM CST (6:00 London, 7:00 Paris/Berlin) on 11/29, we will be bringing the all game servers and SWTOR.com down for extended maintenance.

Note to weekend testers: Your phase of the Game Testing Program has now concluded, and you will no longer be able to play the game.

As part of the internal testing and deployment process, the game servers will remain unavailable for ongoing testers after the website is up at 12:00PM CST (18:00 London, 19:00 Paris/Berlin) on 11/29. We will update the stickies in this forum to keep you informed about when the servers will be available again. While we do not currently have an ETA, we expect the servers to be available again this week.


GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE NEW BUILD!
Characters from the last phase of testing will not be wiped and will carry over to the new build of the game!
You will not need to uninstall this build and the new patch will not be the size of a new build! (This means no 20GB download!)

We are excited to get everyone back to testing, as this is our launch build and it will include wide array of improvements, bug fixes, and updates! Your participation and feedback are truly appreciated!

Please watch this thread for any updates or new information as they become available.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Baldrake on November 28, 2011, 05:36:19 PM
I'm detecting an interesting trend, that several of my non MMO-playing friends are talking about picking up SWTOR. These are people who passed on WoW, and haven't even heard of other MMOs. It reminds me of 2005 when the most surprising people started turning up with WoW boxes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 28, 2011, 05:43:06 PM
At the very least there's been a large amount of interest from Bioware fans, the majority of testers I've interacted with were Bioware/RPG players.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on November 28, 2011, 05:43:12 PM
I'm detecting an interesting trend, that several of my non MMO-playing friends are talking about picking up SWTOR. These are people who passed on WoW, and haven't even heard of other MMOs. It reminds me of 2005 when the most surprising people started turning up with WoW boxes.

I'm sure Bioware has quite a few fans that don't play MMO's.  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 28, 2011, 06:17:06 PM
As I already noted on the landmark 400th page, I really didn't see why I would be paying a subscription to this. I also don't see the box price being worth it either because I see them having a retention problem and major price drops, free trials and/or Pay to Crush coming to this very soon in it's lifespan.

The storylines are very cool, and I can see playing through them, and the cut-scenes are cool, but I really don't like the solo along together feel it had, or the limited enjoyment and set path the storyline would bring. I am an explorer who wants to just wander around, not be led by every single thing I do.

"Wait for a price drop" is the impression I came away from the game with as well. Let's say they do a good job with the Bioware story, so NPC/companion interactions and your class story are all pretty entertaining from 1-50. What is the benefit to playing this game at release instead of a few months later? Other MMOs focus more on group gameplay, and playing on release gives you a better chance of catching the 'wave' that your friends or a good guild will ride. SWTOR treads much more closely to the model of other single-player Bioware games, where you'll get the same story experience if you wait for the inevitable (and in the case of an MMO with retention problems - rapid) price drop.

EA isn't a stranger to lowering the cost of games shortly after release. Battlefield 3 just came out and was $30 from quite a few places (including Origin) this past weekend. Dragon Age 2 and Dead Space 2 came out less than a year ago, have both been on sale for $5-10 recently, and EA doesn't even have the option of getting monthly subscription revenue from those games. Rift saw pretty fast price drops, and that was a fairly successful MMO with a much more obvious retention model.

Waiting will give me the same story experience for significantly less money, and I won't have to worry about server load problems slowing down combat or creating an obnoxious amount of competition for quest objectives. The UI may also see some improvements by then. I might actually have a superior experience to people that play on release, for less money, without really trading anything away given story focus of the game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 28, 2011, 06:22:49 PM
Battlefield 3 just came out and was $30 from quite a few places (including Origin) this past weekend. Dragon Age 2 and Dead Space 2 came out less than a year ago, have both been on sale for $5-10 recently. Rift saw pretty fast price drops, and that was a fairly successful MMO with a much more obvious retention model.

The difference is SWTOR might actually be good.   :rimshot:

Although I can't really poke fun at BF3 being "generic FPS #1344" since SWTOR is just "generic MMO #1543".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on November 28, 2011, 06:32:44 PM
I don't think they'll reduce the box cost, but my plan is to wait a couple months for some bug fixes and maybe a better UI, then probably play it for a month or two.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 28, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
The difference is SWTOR might actually be good.   :rimshot:

Price drops happen for big publishers regardless of the quality though. Mass Effect 2 sunk pretty fast and I thought the game was great. Ubisoft's games price drop extremely fast even when they're both critically and financially successful like Assassin's Creed. I don't see SWTOR's $60 price tag sticking around for long even if the game is a huge success without retention problems. I do suspect it will have retention problems though, so I'd peg it at sub-$30 within 3 months.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 06:41:55 PM
I doubt the price will drop significantly for several months at least. It probably won't be like WoW where you were still paying full price years later, but this doesn't look like a regular MMO scenario to me right now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 28, 2011, 07:20:34 PM
Quote
I don't think they'll reduce the box cost, but my plan is to wait a couple months for some bug fixes and maybe a better UI, then probably play it for a month or two.

If in the first three months they add at least one major content item--a dungeon, raid, or new zone and they get a LFG system and a configurable UI, (ie, what Trion pulled off) then the game will be set to go for a while and you won't see bailouts or a price drop. But players today are locusts. They consume at a ludicrous rate and I don't think new games have the luxury to piddle around Blizzard style.

And I don't get a vibe that they're real nimble on the development--anyone who's been in beta a long time want to comment?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 07:38:25 PM
By the way, now that I have played a couple of classes into the advanced class point ( :why_so_serious: ), I still think no AC swapping is a huge, stupid mistake.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 07:57:19 PM
Content within 3 months should be easy, it would be under development nowish. My concern is a suit 6 months down the line saying "what? more dev money? Fuck that, B Team support go!"

Players will consume at a crazy rate. The idea is to keep putting new stuff out so they don't unsubscribe, not to keep them logged in 24/7. You just can't do that, ever. If I consume 4 hours of content in a night, I can pretty much be sure that I will outpace anything they could be trying to churn out. Anyone who has no interest in alts will run out of content in the game quickly. But I was a little impressed with the raid lockout list. Assuming they're all in on launch, they're going to have a pretty large endgame content stable to start with.


And no dual specs, no peace. AC switching would be neat, but I don't see it ever actually happening. It's an 8 class game, they just dance around letting you pick your class until level 10.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 08:32:04 PM
The extra content will be paid for at the cash shop.

And 4 hours per day might be a lot, but a properly organised team would be able to keep up with non-poopsockers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 28, 2011, 08:34:45 PM
Since release is over Christmas, I plan to beat the everloving shit out of the game between Christmas and New Years.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 08:42:42 PM
The extra content will be paid for at the cash shop.

And 4 hours per day might be a lot, but a properly organised team would be able to keep up with non-poopsockers.

It really depends what you consider to be a proper amount of content consumption. Even if you assume you need to make say, 2 hours of Voice work a week, you're looking at a difficult schedule to keep. It's possible, I just don't see EA footing the bill if they think they can get away with a far smaller live team.

Heck, how much goes into producing TV shows for a season? This should be less (less art time, really.), but you're still talking a season of 12  episodes/12 hours of content taking months to produce.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 28, 2011, 08:50:56 PM
I just don't consume content fast enough to worry about where this game will be in 2-3 months post launch. I might have my first toon approaching 50 after 3 months -- maybe -- with a stable of alts in the 10-20 range.  I work 60 hours a week, run a D&D game once a month, play LOTRO with friends once a week, squeeze in some RIFT, and try to make sure not to neglect my partner. Doesn't leave a lot of time for devouring a game like TOR the way some folks will. I think TOR will have a place in my onlne gaming for at least a year if not longer.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 08:57:25 PM
I just don't consume content fast enough to worry about where this game will be in 2-3 months post launch. I might have my first toon approaching 50 after 3 months -- maybe -- with a stable of alts in the 10-20 range.  I work 60 hours a week, run a D&D game once a month, play LOTRO with friends once a week, squeeze in some RIFT, and try to make sure not to neglect my partner. Doesn't leave a lot of time for devouring a game like TOR the way some folks will. I think TOR will have a place in my onlne gaming for at least a year if not longer.

I found your scheduling problem  :why_so_serious:

I tend to play 1ish game at a time, so after work I make dinner, hang out a bit, and play until bedtime. It winds up being about 3-4 hours since I tend to go to sleep at 1ish, and my fiance goes to bed around 9/10. There's no way a live team could keep up with me, and I really don't expect them to be aiming for my demographic. You aim for me by having interesting dungeon content I can play with to amuse myself.

If anything, I'd more expect them to go for weekly TV show level content. 1-2 hours a week, even if in monthly chunks. It would keep enough interest to have people still retain subs if the core gameplay gets a bit more polish.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 28, 2011, 09:26:34 PM
Spent the last hour taking screenshots of what I want my initial 8 characters to look like :) Figure I'll save some time at launch. Also grabbed a shot of this weekend's villain hero (random names for beta weekends ftw):



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 28, 2011, 09:35:48 PM
Hate to say it but you're showing either your age or your lack of SW fandom.  The Chiss are in because they're ultra-badass in the EU and Thrawn is a very popular - if not iconic by now - character.

I don't know who the fuck Thrawn is in the EU, but if he's why we've been lumped with these charmless blue goons, he can go fuck himself :D


Uh, check like two posts up from your post...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 09:45:04 PM
I am going to pink twi'lek manquisitor SO HARD ... right after my smuggler and consular and IA.  :why_so_serious:

I need to like ... think of names for them all. It's hard.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 28, 2011, 09:48:54 PM
Finished off Balmorra tonight as expected (outside 4 heroics and the bonus series).  Solidly level 39 and finally have my 3rd companion, not counting the ship droid.

I will give them this, the planets all look very, very different.  Quesh is.. hmm, I will reserve judgement.  

Over the course of my beta time I have seen new flashpoints come out and a large number of system fixes.  Obviously this is crunch time.  The number of fixes and updates that have gone in has at least been noticeable.  Today I heard talking during a space mission.  First time for that.  

Repeating the same planets quests 3-4 times might be a drag (then again that does not seem to stop WoW players?) but you can gain xp in plenty of ways.  Your quests give big chunks of xp, as do space missions.  If you can gain xp doing pvp then there are multiple paths to advancement.  Maybe I will make Hoth before the servers go live.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 28, 2011, 09:54:18 PM
Quesh is short, more or less a detour.



Hit 50 tonight, took me like, 3 weeks, a month? Anywhere from 1-4 hours a night. With a few weekends where I stayed up way to late and probably played like 6-8 hours. Haven't even started Corellia, that seems to be the last 'leveling' planet as far as I can tell. Can't say for sure though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 28, 2011, 10:27:19 PM
The extra content will be paid for at the cash shop.

And 4 hours per day might be a lot, but a properly organised team would be able to keep up with non-poopsockers.

It really depends what you consider to be a proper amount of content consumption. Even if you assume you need to make say, 2 hours of Voice work a week, you're looking at a difficult schedule to keep. It's possible, I just don't see EA footing the bill if they think they can get away with a far smaller live team.

Heck, how much goes into producing TV shows for a season? This should be less (less art time, really.), but you're still talking a season of 12  episodes/12 hours of content taking months to produce.

2 hours of VO, would be what, 30 or 50 hours of gameplay?

You don't need anything like that much on a weekly basis.

You basically would need campaign on the scale of DA awakenings each month to keep up. Which is perfectly achievable if that is what EA wanted to do. Instead they'll just do the raid thing so whatever really.

Junk TV is the perfect comparison. If they have a steady production process geared to it there is no reason they couldn't produce similar regular output. The income off of this is going to be of a similar order of magnitude.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 28, 2011, 10:29:34 PM
You wouldn't need as much as Awakenings. That would be pretty unprecedented for any MMO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 28, 2011, 10:35:55 PM
If anything, I'd thing some of the ME2 DLC lengths a month would be more than enough (Kasumi's DLC or something. That was what, 2-3 hours unless I'm forgetting some major part of it?)

You still need a raid game (or more specifically, something for people to DO once they ran your new story content), but you don't need to keep giving me new content every night. Just regularly enough that I don't feel like unsubbing until the next content patch. Junk TV is the perfect idea behind the content. It's slightly interactive TV.

Actually thinking about it, I think the challenge would be making content hooks that don't feel like they're ripping your character out of their storyline/fiction. I think that's where a lot of their sticky subscription will come from. I feel a lot more attachment to my SWTOR characters than I ever did to my WOW characters because they have a personality of their own and a fiction that gives them a reason to be places and do things.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 28, 2011, 10:39:09 PM
That is highly entertaining coming from you, Mr. "Why are we killing these raid bosses? I didn't read any of my quests."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 28, 2011, 10:55:22 PM
Junk TV is the perfect comparison. If they have a steady production process geared to it there is no reason they couldn't produce similar regular output. The income off of this is going to be of a similar order of magnitude.

With VO and story they actually have more opportunity to create content than a traditional MMO too.    Massive amounts of traditional MMO content would become boring very quickly.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 29, 2011, 12:04:15 AM
You wouldn't need as much as Awakenings. That would be pretty unprecedented for any MMO.

Continuous production of any amount of interesting content outside of an annual expansion would be unheard of in a mmog. But other mmogs don't claim story content as their reason to exist, or as justification for mediocre mechanics.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 29, 2011, 12:06:55 AM
If anything, I'd thing some of the ME2 DLC lengths a month would be more than enough (Kasumi's DLC or something. That was what, 2-3 hours unless I'm forgetting some major part of it?)

You still need a raid game (or more specifically, something for people to DO once they ran your new story content), but you don't need to keep giving me new content every night. Just regularly enough that I don't feel like unsubbing until the next content patch. Junk TV is the perfect idea behind the content. It's slightly interactive TV.

Actually thinking about it, I think the challenge would be making content hooks that don't feel like they're ripping your character out of their storyline/fiction. I think that's where a lot of their sticky subscription will come from. I feel a lot more attachment to my SWTOR characters than I ever did to my WOW characters because they have a personality of their own and a fiction that gives them a reason to be places and do things.

On your last point, I think they really need to give the universe as a whole an ongoing story which new content can tie to. Basically the same thing Asheron's Call did.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 12:14:40 AM
So why do I still have beta? Wasn't this just a weekend thing? How do they expect me to stop playing when they're flaunting it at my face like that  :uhrr:

Played a bit more on my agent, I really like the hunter sniper. The way energy regeneration works and from what I can tell of the talent tree and skills this class has some potential for an interesting dps rotation. Totally needs a mod that puts numbers on the energy bar though. Also the first mechanic that's not lifted straight from wow and has potential. Anyone knows if the regen drops down below 75 or 70 energy?

I won't be quitting wow any time soon, so I don't care much about content generation. The game will have enough content to take me for a few months at least. I have no interested in the endgame, so as soon as I chew through a couple of chars up to the end (one for both sides) I'll be unsubing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 29, 2011, 01:46:48 AM
Can someone confirm whether any of the higher flashpoints are like the Esseles/Black Talon?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 29, 2011, 04:07:47 AM
Can someone confirm whether any of the higher flashpoints are like the Esseles/Black Talon?

Meaning what?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 04:17:08 AM
I'm guessing a contained story, with some trash and a couple of bosses, all with similar level quality. I've been wondering that myself.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 29, 2011, 04:54:55 AM
Most everything I've read which I trust says that they're less good than the first couple. Same in theory, but way blander and more like traditional dungeons.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 29, 2011, 05:00:14 AM
Can someone confirm whether any of the higher flashpoints are like the Esseles/Black Talon?

Not that I have seen.  They are just dungeon crawls.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 29, 2011, 05:03:51 AM
So summary of this 3 day marathon playing , 25 Sith Inq ,10 IA, 5 Trooper


Bad:
 -Textures and graphics. Well its omfg year 2001 all over again. In game textures are so low rez that they replace them during cutscenes. Which is even more jarring than the low rez. No Antia-aliasing . It looks way worse than it could
- World PvP. - there is none to be found. You cant even see other side even you try really hard (there is "exhaust" field you cant cross to other faction city). That is on pvp server. Whats point of pvp servers at all?
- PvP minigames- well they are laggy uninspired POS.  CC in this game is over the top as well
- The boring kill "50 mobs" quest. I am shitting you not , on balmora there is at least 6 quests which make you kill over 50 elite mobs. And elite mobs are really slow to die
- Its a gear  themepark (DIKU some would say but I dont want use words I dont 100% know :) ). So its pretty boring from that perspective
- its fucking Star Wars. Star wars are for dorkiest nerds.



Good:
-Storylines are great. Seriously single player quality at least for start 20 lvls
-Dark choices are funny and seriously entertaining
-Its effing fun!


And verdict is - Buy , play every major char to lvl 20 and 2 of them to 50 ( for empire and republic) .Shelf afterwards.  Game has really great content. Its like 4 single player games in one. Majority of areas I seen are very well made and all the shortcoming are mostly of technical nature (engine is POS), not art direction or design.

But  it offers nothing beyond that. The  fluid storyline flow from first 15 level morphs more and more into standard MMO routine by the time I hit 3d planet (was balmorra in my case) .

I honestly didnt expect this game to be simply good. I dont like SciFi, dont like  Star Wars , hated Kotor. But there  it went from
"never buy" to "pre-order". I dont think the game has any longevity  but before you run out of content there is lots of great one to experience.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on November 29, 2011, 05:15:27 AM
Can someone confirm whether any of the higher flashpoints are like the Esseles/Black Talon?
I did Hammer Station and it had pretty much a single RP moment; the whole flashpoint however is way shorter and far less trash filled than Eselles/Talon. Rather than RP it has a bunch of little stuff you can do in the instance with gathering skills to bypass areas or unlock more content; like using scavenging to fix a drill to knock out a wall or using bioanalysis to turn off poison gas. You get a non-dialog RP thing towards the end where you either sabatogue parts of the station to explode and kill a mess of the badguys and their grunt workers indecriminately to get by, or just mess up their security...that's about it for light/dark in that. A later flashpoint I saw played beginning to end had about as much RP as Black Talon/Esseles however.

I also did Athiss but I was only able to get one boss in due to bugs. There was another non-dialog RP thing right after the first boss that made no sense however from the republic side if you chose dark side. It literally might as well have been "kick a puppy" because you get no tangible benefit from being a dick, even RPwise.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 29, 2011, 05:37:25 AM
Someone in the other thread indicated that system doesn't work as you level up anyway.  something about how raid gear (and I assume pvp gear) would need to be used instead because mods can't come close to their stats.

Now that torhead is back up I went and checked this and it seems to work with raid gear too.   Here's some raid gear: http://www.torhead.com/item/4XuSRdY.    It has the same slots as lower stuff.   It looks like PvP gear does not use the slots though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 05:45:32 AM
umm, there's no armor on that chest?

other than that it's a cool system, does it have to be an epic chest/pants to have all the important sockets or do rare ones work too?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 29, 2011, 06:09:20 AM
Can someone confirm whether any of the higher flashpoints are like the Esseles/Black Talon?
I did Hammer Station and it had pretty much a single RP moment; the whole flashpoint however is way shorter and far less trash filled than Eselles/Talon. Rather than RP it has a bunch of little stuff you can do in the instance with gathering skills to bypass areas or unlock more content; like using scavenging to fix a drill to knock out a wall or using bioanalysis to turn off poison gas. You get a non-dialog RP thing towards the end where you either sabatogue parts of the station to explode and kill a mess of the badguys and their grunt workers indecriminately to get by, or just mess up their security...that's about it for light/dark in that. A later flashpoint I saw played beginning to end had about as much RP as Black Talon/Esseles however.

I also did Athiss but I was only able to get one boss in due to bugs. There was another non-dialog RP thing right after the first boss that made no sense however from the republic side if you chose dark side. It literally might as well have been "kick a puppy" because you get no tangible benefit from being a dick, even RPwise.

I liked Hammer Station. I thought the use of crafting skills to bypass trash mobs was pretty interesting. Even more so when you bypass stuff the first time, but have no one with skills to repeat that so you end up going through the trash. Also liked the ramp up in difficulty from BT. Sadly, it was way short.

This was also the first instance where I fould out that rockets and my death from above BH skill have AoE much larger that I originially thought. Nothing like breaking CC from the sorc and having them bitch at you.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 29, 2011, 06:12:17 AM
...the use of crafting skills to bypass trash mobs...

Sadly, it was way short.

Working as intended?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 29, 2011, 06:17:40 AM
I thought Hammer Station was really disappointing, standard dungeon fair with obtuse mechanics (unless youre a MMORPG veteran). Calling it a flashpoint seems like a bit of a stretch if Esseles/Talon are supposed to be the standard. I think I was also annoyed by the difficulty in getting a group together, and the travelling from zone to zone is really a pain.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 29, 2011, 06:24:53 AM
...the use of crafting skills to bypass trash mobs...

Sadly, it was way short.

Working as intended?

I should clarify. Even tearing through the entire crawl and killing all of the trash, it was still short. And the bug with no loot on the end boss was filled with sorrow and gnashing of teeth.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on November 29, 2011, 06:35:50 AM
umm, there's no armor on that chest?

other than that it's a cool system, does it have to be an epic chest/pants to have all the important sockets or do rare ones work too?
Pretty much the main distinguishing factor of blue gear that makes it better than green gear is that it has modification slots. Yeah, the base stats are always better, but the real difference is the mod slots.

I had my companion wearing my old blue-quality armor from the end of the starting area because with mods it was still way better than the much higher level greens I was making/finding. Well, ignoring armor.

I have no idea if it's because of the beta or if it's going to be like that in release, but all gear that had mod slots came with mods already in it. You could change them out for better ones but all the armor/weapons I had came with plenty good enough modifications.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 06:52:03 AM
are mods straight gems from wow, ie - if you stick them in an item you can only replace & destroy them?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 29, 2011, 06:54:26 AM
are mods straight gems from wow, ie - if you stick them in an item you can only replace & destroy them?

Replacing will destroy, but SWTOR gives a finger to WoW by allowing you to remove and keep implanted mods for a small credit charge if you want to save a mod for something else.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 29, 2011, 06:54:51 AM
I thought Hammer Station was really disappointing, standard dungeon fair with obtuse mechanics (unless youre a MMORPG veteran). Calling it a flashpoint seems like a bit of a stretch if Esseles/Talon are supposed to be the standard.

My small group found Hammer Station pretty disappointing too. The crafting skill use to bypass trash mobs was a nice addition, but it lacked the story and involvement we found we had with Black Talon.  HS had more varied and difficult fights, especially with the boss mobs and it required CC - where BT didn't whatsoever. Not getting any sort of loot from the final guy was awesome, too.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 07:17:41 AM
are mods straight gems from wow, ie - if you stick them in an item you can only replace & destroy them?

Replacing will destroy, but SWTOR gives a finger to WoW by allowing you to remove and keep implanted mods for a small credit charge if you want to save a mod for something else.

Do you just do it anywhere or does it have to be at a special place? Reseting my talents took 10 minutes of banging my head against the wall and finally asking in trade. Why copy a game completely and just change that little bit that makes no sense? Different vendor, really?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on November 29, 2011, 07:19:29 AM
are mods straight gems from wow, ie - if you stick them in an item you can only replace & destroy them?

Replacing will destroy, but SWTOR gives a finger to WoW by allowing you to remove and keep implanted mods for a small credit charge if you want to save a mod for something else.

Huh. How do you do that? (edit: The removing part)

If you can truly keep re-modding old armour through any level I'll be overjoyed as this will really help in the looks department. Did anyone check out the raid gear NPCs? The armour looks... Appalling. WoW-epic-shoulders syndrome.

Also, did anyone find the Imp NPC you're supposed to give companion gift parts to in order to have them assembled?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 29, 2011, 07:19:54 AM
Just drag it out. Pay the fee.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 29, 2011, 07:20:10 AM
I can understand the different vendor thing for skill resets.  If they intend to have high costs of changing talents/ACs, it gives them the cop-out of "you deliberately walked over to the other NPC who's sole purpose is to mind wipe you.  We're not refunding shit."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 29, 2011, 07:22:06 AM
The mods are what give the item armor.   Not sure why Torhead isn't listing that stat.   You can change mods and pull them out anywhere.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 07:34:23 AM
http://torwars.com/2011/11/28/video-swtor-ui-tips-healing-frames-focus-target/

Not the mouse-over thing people seem to want, but a couple good tips for healers with the existing UI.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 29, 2011, 07:49:03 AM
http://torwars.com/2011/11/28/video-swtor-ui-tips-healing-frames-focus-target/

Not the mouse-over thing people seem to want, but a couple good tips for healers with the existing UI.

That focus target thing is nice. I tried fucking with that on my merc this weekend, but really didn't grasp how it works. Now I get it. Good link.

sidenote: This guy sounds a lot like the same guy that did the tutorial on HealBot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kaid on November 29, 2011, 08:09:59 AM
Okay that is a slick focus implementation I am likely going to wind up a healing trooper would be nice to have good ability to still shoot some fools while being able to easily heal the main tank.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 29, 2011, 08:18:14 AM
Does anybody have a good link to the crew skills and what they all do, as well as which ones are interconnected? Pro/con, etc? I'm struggling with that, given there is so little information in the actual game. Also, are they respeccable?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 29, 2011, 08:21:36 AM
Does anybody have a good link to the crew skills and what they all do, as well as which ones are interconnected? Pro/con, etc? I'm struggling with that, given there is so little information in the actual game. Also, are they respeccable?

I had a picture with lines and everything but it led me wrong in game.   I'd say just open up the lore entry because it tells you which ones go together at the bottom.   They are easy to respec as you just click on the X to delete them.  It's maybe a bit tooo easy actually.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 29, 2011, 08:45:15 AM
I had a picture with lines and everything but it led me wrong in game.  

Ditto, I found a nice looking picture that linked the crafting skills on the left to the crew skills on the right.  Find out after a while that one of my crew skills is completely useless for my crafting skill and I need a different skill to get the other half of my crafting materials I was usually missing.

They are respeccable very easily though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 29, 2011, 09:01:05 AM
Does anybody have a good link to the crew skills and what they all do, as well as which ones are interconnected?

So glad I spent my time putting together a useful link thread and got the honor of having it stickied  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 29, 2011, 09:21:26 AM
Does anybody have a good link to the crew skills and what they all do, as well as which ones are interconnected?

So glad I spent my time putting together a useful link thread and got the honor of having it stickied  :oh_i_see:

Oh yeah, there it is. Tbh, stickies get ignored all the time. Schild just likes them for some reason.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 09:21:55 AM
The crew skills image is out of date. My synthweaving used archeology (for regular crystals) and underworld trading (for metals to make blue items) this past weekend.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rendakor on November 29, 2011, 09:27:19 AM
Just use the codex. Find the profession that makes the type of items you want to make (weapons, armor, whatever), then at the bottom it tells you which two other professions to take with it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on November 29, 2011, 09:33:28 AM
Google Doc Spread Sheet in Crew Skills (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoanzs2Gp8qIdGxPWHB5T3NWQXFBaGR3TkhzamxyeXc#gid=0). I didnt make this. I found it on Reddit.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 10:41:46 AM
http://torwars.com/2011/11/28/video-swtor-ui-tips-healing-frames-focus-target/

Not the mouse-over thing people seem to want, but a couple good tips for healers with the existing UI.

That focus target thing is nice. I tried fucking with that on my merc this weekend, but really didn't grasp how it works. Now I get it. Good link.

sidenote: This guy sounds a lot like the same guy that did the tutorial on HealBot.

Wait wait wait. That operations frame thing. It's slick. It's also MOVABLE. Why the fuck isn't the chat window mobile if the UI supports the concept of unlocking and moving shit around? :(


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 10:46:08 AM
That is highly entertaining coming from you, Mr. "Why are we killing these raid bosses? I didn't read any of my quests."

Mostly theme wise! Some of them made sense, the only one I think I actually asked about was Mr Blue Dragon who was apparently explained in a book or something. But at the time it was very much "look, just go through this portal and kill the thing on the other side. DON'T ASK WHY HE'S RIGHT BELOW US ALL AND WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT OKAY?"

Actually, I can't remember the reason for going to Uld either. We were fighting a big bad lich king across the land, and for some reason decided to go pick a fight with an ancient god or something to save the world?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 29, 2011, 10:51:17 AM
Uldaman was about Old Gods. There's always room for Old Gods. They are the Jello of WoW.

The worst one was ToC. We're on our way to kill the Lich King so we decide to set up a Ren-Faire?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 29, 2011, 10:52:38 AM
Does anybody have a good link to the crew skills and what they all do, as well as which ones are interconnected? Pro/con, etc? I'm struggling with that, given there is so little information in the actual game. Also, are they respeccable?

I had a picture with lines and everything but it led me wrong in game.   I'd say just open up the lore entry because it tells you which ones go together at the bottom.   They are easy to respec as you just click on the X to delete them.  It's maybe a bit tooo easy actually.

I think - but can't obviously check - that you can't delete them prior to getting a companion. I tested going to Carrick Station at level 2 or something and learning some skills and found that interacting with each trainer earns a codex entry and 450xp - which is easily enough to go from level 2 to 4 in a minute or so. But if you learn a crafting skill, you won't be able to interact with any of the other crafting trainers, only gathering/mission trainers so talk to all of them first for the XP boost.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 29, 2011, 10:54:40 AM
Wait wait wait. That operations frame thing. It's slick. It's also MOVABLE. Why the fuck isn't the chat window mobile if the UI supports the concept of unlocking and moving shit around? :(

The chat window is mobile (and possibly resizable) but because none of the rest of the interface is, there's not many places to put it. I moved mine to the bottom left and then found it obscured my holocommunicator thing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 10:57:44 AM
Wait wait wait. That operations frame thing. It's slick. It's also MOVABLE. Why the fuck isn't the chat window mobile if the UI supports the concept of unlocking and moving shit around? :(

The chat window is mobile (and possibly resizable) but because none of the rest of the interface is, there's not many places to put it. I moved mine to the bottom left and then found it obscured my holocommunicator thing.

I feel like I'm missing some small patch somewhere that just flags the whole damned thing mobile. I wound up just closing the chat window all the time, since it didn't have any form of combat log for me to look at in this build.

But that also makes me go "so I can move the raid frames.. but the only place to put them is the middle of the UI?

I do like the focus modifier key though. That's nice.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 11:20:38 AM
But if you learn a crafting skill, you won't be able to interact with any of the other crafting trainers, only gathering/mission trainers so talk to all of them first for the XP boost.
Just cancel out the popup. You'll get the xp and lore update but won't learn the skill. Glad I did because that's how I learned underworld trading now supports synthweaving, which allowed me to get components for my blue gear. Seemed to be pretty tough to get those, too. T7 failed about 80% and only brought back 2 and then 3 of the metal (4 for the item), 6 minutes missions for the teen tier.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 29, 2011, 11:23:07 AM
If you accidentally learn the wrong skill you can open the companions window and remove it.   


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 11:25:28 AM
So no beta. Installing KotOR and ordered the blu-rays earlier today. I hate you SWTOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 29, 2011, 11:28:34 AM
Didn't you get one of the 8 million codes out there?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 12:00:25 PM
I did, but wasn't that for the weekend only? No servers now anyway.

Kotor is unplayable :( Found a widescreen patch but the game crashed 3 times in 20 minutes :(


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Reg on November 29, 2011, 12:17:40 PM
Yeah, the last time I played KOTOR I had to give up on the wide screen and just play it in a window.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 12:18:57 PM
I got KotOR working in widescreen but the mods to get the UI workable was....less than desirable.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 29, 2011, 12:21:41 PM
got both the widescreen and the UI to work, just had to run it under XP compatibility and had no further issues. Unfortunately still unplayable, bioware have come some way from kotor to swtor as far as dialogue goes "I don't care what's your name and I won't tell you mine!"  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 29, 2011, 12:26:29 PM
I found myself getting disturbingly attached to a purely evil-as-fuck Sith Warrior.  To the point I wondered if different "darkside" choices actually were more "darkly."  I do believe in the climactic beginning treachery that your disposition creates more/less darkside alignment.

I'm sure the minmaxers will have all this stuff mapped out in a week or so for sure.

Upon playing a BH though, I took a fairly "professional" outlook and ended up pretty neutral... sometimes darkly, sometimes lightly, but balanced in the end.  My M.O. was simply honoring the jobs given to me and not backstabbing even if more credits were available.  It got me wondering...  is there ANY benefit to leading a balanced existence?  If not, I'd say the alignment mechanic is fairly broken for RPing your typical BH/smuggler.  Gear should not simply be dark/good.  If you can maintain a shade of grey near the endgame you should be adequately rewarded.

From the 400+ page thread someone told me the dark/light dialogue choices and levels were just for cosmetic differences. Now Im hearing they effect which weapons and such you can use?
So there are consequences to your choices!
Anything else? Any other consequences other than equipment you can use?

 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 29, 2011, 12:27:42 PM
Currently there are very few items with alignment requirements AFAIK, mainly weapon colours I think.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 12:33:31 PM
Not sure how it works for drops, since at least two of us have seen the dark side saber drop off the Esseles boss (Kira seemed to be able to use it fine, for some reason).

But for vendor gear it's mirrored. You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

I only saw two other people running around with red sabers this weekend, I was kinda surprised. A few more Vicious folks, but only one other Sinister (which is where I left off at 18, maybe 2400 dark side pts).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 12:44:40 PM
I haven't seen any alignment tied to low tier weapon colors. It seemed to just be drops that had light/dark requirements. Would be neat if quests were also tied to both.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 29, 2011, 12:46:20 PM
I found it telling that with all this talking in the cutscenes, out in the world -  you know the actual game part of this game, I perform the laugh emote and my character is completely silent.

But these talking puppets have some kind of pull obviously, they have entranced many people who don't seem to care that as soon as you exit them you're in a game that is as rote and by-the-numbers as MMOs come.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 29, 2011, 01:06:37 PM
Gosh, if only you'd brought us this revelation 400+ pages and another thread ago! We'd all be feeling a whole lot less silly right now, I can tell you. It's unwavering realists like yourself that need to take charge of this increasingly ignoble situation where people enjoy a well crafted MMO experience despite all logic to the contrary. Egg is indeed in the vicinity of our faces.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 29, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Yes I'm just grumpy that I now have no new mmo to play this month. I'm sure you guys will be loving your well-crafted interactive puppet theater.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 01:14:37 PM
It's by the numbers mechanics. I knew this the second torhead went up.

I'm strangely okay with that, though I wish they'd gone with a slightly more up to date version of the mechanics to copy. I'm more surprised that me, the man who adamantly refuses to read quest text in MMOs and just likes the mechanics, actually finds the character interactions and world somewhat interesting and sticky.

I can actually tell you my consular's plot line, and give you some insight into how they view the world and their place in it. That's something I don't do in MMORPGs. I played all the stories for 2-3 missions just to get a flavor for the character, and didn't actually dislike any of them off the bat. Some aren't my style, but they all seem pretty well done.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 01:16:51 PM
I think I should just park it here because further progress is just a pointless minefield.
Yes, you should've.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 29, 2011, 01:18:59 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on November 29, 2011, 01:21:11 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.

They said neutral gear is coming, it just won't make it for launch.  Dark and Light gear is only different in looks.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 29, 2011, 01:21:45 PM
Yes I'm just grumpy that I now have no new mmo to play this month. I'm sure you guys will be loving your well-crafted interactive puppet theater.

That's splendid!  Be happy, they released about a thousand samey first person shooters recently.  You should be knee deep in 6 hour railroaded experiences.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 01:25:06 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.

Note that you accumulate both light side and dark side points, they don't offset each other, so really you will probably end up being able to use both to a certain extent if you are splitting the difference on your decisions.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 29, 2011, 01:32:08 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.

Note that you accumulate both light side and dark side points, they don't offset each other, so really you will probably end up being able to use both to a certain extent if you are splitting the difference on your decisions.

Aren't they based on your LS/DS level? Like Darkside 1? The scale works that if you have 2400 DS points and 1000 LS points, you're still just Darkside 1 (1400 DS) not DS 2/LS 1.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 01:35:49 PM
Kildorn brings up a good point, something I'd been thinking about after logging out last night.

Both my Consular in the 367 weekend and my Knight this past weekend were actual characters. They made choices, had a certain way they acted and grew over the first 20ish levels. They disliked some npcs, they liked others. They had good times with other players, who were actually memorable because you interacted with them in the story. In no other mmo since UO has casual roleplay created such memorable characters. I couldn't tell you a single thing about my Rift characters I took to 50, there was the big purple guy and the little guy with the limp bizkit haircut. In EQ2 I played a pale wizard. In both games they did some stuff. Were they good, evil, what did they think about the quests they were accepting?

My black sphere evolves to a purple parallel.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 29, 2011, 01:41:32 PM
I think I should just park it here because further progress is just a pointless minefield.
Yes, you should've.

Agreed.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 29, 2011, 01:53:20 PM
My CoH guys had a bit of character about them, less because of the content than because the character generator had room for so much personality.

In general you are right ofc.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 01:56:00 PM
I found it telling that with all this talking in the cutscenes, out in the world -  you know the actual game part of this game, I perform the laugh emote and my character is completely silent.
Wait, what? It's not possible for a Sith to perform an actual, audible evil laugh whenever they feel like it?

That sucks.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 01:57:15 PM
I know my guildmates made backstories and such for CoH characters. I don't know about WoW characters as much.

Personally I didn't. I may have had a theme going for them, but I mostly cared mechanically how they played and made really boring costumes. I sort of need my hand held the way SWTOR does to get me to give a shit about my character's motivations.

So far I dislike all my companions however. I want a droid just in the hopes that they shut up.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 01:58:14 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.

Note that you accumulate both light side and dark side points, they don't offset each other, so really you will probably end up being able to use both to a certain extent if you are splitting the difference on your decisions.


Yes they do, your Dark side point total is subtracted from you light side total or the other way around.


You can laugh all you want, it just gets buggy and doesn't play a sound/animation some times.


Kildorn is a soulless creature if he doesn't like T7.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 01:59:39 PM
You can laugh all you want, it just gets buggy and doesn't play a sound/animation some times.
Ah, alright then. Crisis averted.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 02:00:08 PM
I never got T7. I want him. As a romance option.

All the non droids are just.. complainy. Even in the space game they're all "Don't get us killed!" when I haven't even taken damage yet.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 29, 2011, 02:01:59 PM
So when do we find out when we get to take part in the early release?







Giggity.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
Par for the course with you Force users, baaaw baaaaaaw.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 29, 2011, 02:05:25 PM
Yea, Troopers have more fun.  Also smugglers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 02:06:35 PM
Smuggler's first companion is a bit of a pest, too. Second one I didn't get much time with.

So apparently only troopers get to have fun. With their helmets on.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 29, 2011, 02:07:28 PM
I honestly find it difficult to play a character I haven't invested any thought in regarding their background, personality and aspirations. CoX allowed me to actually display a bit of story for when someone inspected my characters but beyond that it was merely in my head or explained to friends who liked to RP occasionally. All my WoW chars have history, even if it's just something small to branch off from. SWtOR suggests that my characters have a past that I can then build a more personal take on; for example my Rattataki Sith Inquisitor is a rising alien slave according to the game, and the game story charts that rise from the moment I start playing but gives me plenty of space to flesh it out. I can't let go of the RPG, otherwise what's the point?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 29, 2011, 02:09:35 PM
Corso is an awesome womanizer!  Perfect sidekick!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 02:12:44 PM
The loot, Mattemeo! THE LOOT!  :awesome_for_real: I desire to learn your daoc character's motivation for sitting through ML raids ;)

As for Corso, every time I talked to him, he was waxing poetic about his guns. I know far too many people from NH to find that at all appealing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 29, 2011, 02:23:52 PM
SWtOR suggests that my characters have a past that I can then build a more personal take on; for example my Rattataki Sith Inquisitor is a rising alien slave according to the game, and the game story charts that rise from the moment I start playing but gives me plenty of space to flesh it out. I can't let go of the RPG, otherwise what's the point?

All my characters have backgrounds although as they're always the same character, it's always the same background. I have an aged, balding, beer-loving fat bloke character who has forever been some kind of melee/soldier class. So naturally, he was going to be a Trooper. Which comes with the background of being a young but gifted sergeant straight out of the Academy. Fucking Gearbox opens the story calling you Kid and I had no option to smack him in the face.

I cannot begin to tell you how irrationally pissed off I was about this.

The Smuggler story and dialogue, however, seems to totally fit the same character - even down to a "I don't really want to mingle with soldiers, I've got a reason to avoid them" response.  :drill:  Not sure I want to be a pure DPS or healer though.  

Having been quite cool towards the game before level 8, I played another couple of levels and wow! I'm sold! Playing with a companion was alright but conversation choices adding affection points was something I like, no matter how insignificant. As a mini-game in itself I got me thinking about it - do I choose a response that the companion will like or go with what I think my character will like. Then my Consular got his lightsabre and I felt all warm and fuzzy inside. So yeah, done deal. I had fun and that's all I want.

EDIT: Added bonus - now my Trooper gets to be a woman and my FemShep lives on. :drillf:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on November 29, 2011, 02:26:18 PM
Kildorn brings up a good point, something I'd been thinking about after logging out last night.

Both my Consular in the 367 weekend and my Knight this past weekend were actual characters. They made choices, had a certain way they acted and grew over the first 20ish levels. They disliked some npcs, they liked others. They had good times with other players, who were actually memorable because you interacted with them in the story. In no other mmo since UO has casual roleplay created such memorable characters. I couldn't tell you a single thing about my Rift characters I took to 50, there was the big purple guy and the little guy with the limp bizkit haircut. In EQ2 I played a pale wizard. In both games they did some stuff. Were they good, evil, what did they think about the quests they were accepting?

My black sphere evolves to a purple parallel.

You know what. I found myself doing the same thing. I started a Bounty Hunter and decided to play a specific way with him. Basically the cliche of "Always honors his deals, even if offered more money". I had a great time with him.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 29, 2011, 02:32:14 PM
Kildorn brings up a good point, something I'd been thinking about after logging out last night.

Both my Consular in the 367 weekend and my Knight this past weekend were actual characters. They made choices, had a certain way they acted and grew over the first 20ish levels. They disliked some npcs, they liked others. They had good times with other players, who were actually memorable because you interacted with them in the story. In no other mmo since UO has casual roleplay created such memorable characters. I couldn't tell you a single thing about my Rift characters I took to 50, there was the big purple guy and the little guy with the limp bizkit haircut. In EQ2 I played a pale wizard. In both games they did some stuff. Were they good, evil, what did they think about the quests they were accepting?

My black sphere evolves to a purple parallel.

I had a story for my N. Elf Hunter and my DK in WoW, but they were PURELy in my head and not supported by the game at all.

Poor DK never got the $20 Arthas owed him, either.  Kill a man for his money and what do you get?
   Nothing because goddamn undead kings don't carry cash.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 02:49:20 PM
You can buy a dark or light piece with the same stats. Forget if there was also a non-morality piece, there should be. All cosmetic differences.

There definitely needs to be neutral allignment gear if that's the case. I'd argue it's just as hard to stay in the grey as it is to lean toward an extreme. I certainly plan to play my Smuggler and Bounty Hunter as neutral as possible. Getting locked out of gear/rewards/whatever because of that would be somewhat irritating.

Note that you accumulate both light side and dark side points, they don't offset each other, so really you will probably end up being able to use both to a certain extent if you are splitting the difference on your decisions.


Yes they do, your Dark side point total is subtracted from you light side total or the other way around.


You can laugh all you want, it just gets buggy and doesn't play a sound/animation some times.


Kildorn is a soulless creature if he doesn't like T7.

Ah, ok. That kind of makes the way the interface displays it a bit retarded though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on November 29, 2011, 03:22:07 PM
FWIW my Sith Warrior got jumped by an assassin as a result of one of my quest choices. There might not be world changing consequences for your actions but some of the choices you make are at least referenced later on, at least in my experience with the SW.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on November 29, 2011, 03:35:45 PM
Went in really excited, but was tempered by some issues.  Really started getting annoyed with navigating Corusant and finding the one(!) trainer.  But last night I slowed down and smelled the roses.  Suddenly the Sith Inky was fun to play and felt powerful (with tank). 

Crafting is very weird but getting used to it.

So, after a downward spiral, I'm now excited to play it at release, especially with my BC cohorts.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 03:51:34 PM
That is highly entertaining coming from you, Mr. "Why are we killing these raid bosses? I didn't read any of my quests."

Mostly theme wise! Some of them made sense, the only one I think I actually asked about was Mr Blue Dragon who was apparently explained in a book or something. But at the time it was very much "look, just go through this portal and kill the thing on the other side. DON'T ASK WHY HE'S RIGHT BELOW US ALL AND WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT OKAY?"

Actually, I can't remember the reason for going to Uld either. We were fighting a big bad lich king across the land, and for some reason decided to go pick a fight with an ancient god or something to save the world?

Blue Dragon was Malygos, he was explained in game. It was the black dragon dude that was seriously "wtf, why." Yogg'Saron is an old god, they fuck everything up (and he was implied to be sort of fucking with all sorts of shit to boot in his boss fight, not that Slap made it that far). But you definitely asked in (five man) dungeons "why are we here" when we had quests IN OUR QUEST LOG TELLING US more than once.  :heart:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
That is highly entertaining coming from you, Mr. "Why are we killing these raid bosses? I didn't read any of my quests."

Mostly theme wise! Some of them made sense, the only one I think I actually asked about was Mr Blue Dragon who was apparently explained in a book or something. But at the time it was very much "look, just go through this portal and kill the thing on the other side. DON'T ASK WHY HE'S RIGHT BELOW US ALL AND WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT OKAY?"

Actually, I can't remember the reason for going to Uld either. We were fighting a big bad lich king across the land, and for some reason decided to go pick a fight with an ancient god or something to save the world?

Blue Dragon was Malygos, he was explained in game. It was the black dragon dude that was seriously "wtf, why." Yogg'Saron is an old god, they fuck everything up (and he was implied to be sort of fucking with all sorts of shit to boot in his boss fight, not that Slap made it that far). But you definitely asked in (five man) dungeons "why are we here" when we had quests IN OUR QUEST LOG TELLING US more than once.  :heart:

I'd never ask if I had a quest in my log!

.. because it would say Lord Whathisface 0/1, thus TELLING me why I'm there!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 29, 2011, 04:20:49 PM
I'd never ask if I had a quest in my log!
.. because it would say Lord Whathisface 0/1, thus TELLING me why I'm there!

Just realized that over the last 2 TOR betas, I opened my quest logs to check something maybe 5 times -- maybe less. I felt I always knew what I needed to do and where to go, and if I needed a refresher, i just hovered over the shiny map arrow thingy. I can actually remember the various quests -- save Odom's daughter from a wrongful arrest, get the support of the Twilek villager's matriarch, interrogate three prisoners and decide their fate, and on and on -- I'm not going to write them out but I'm just running through them in my mind and they're flooding back. It's not that they're especially memorable -- but I'm guessing the verbal element leaves a stronger imprint on my brain than walls of text.

I like the way bonus missions are handled -- they admit they are nothing more than kill counts and don't ask me to know anything more about them than that.

TOR doesn't seem to have anything like public quests a la RIFT or WAR. I would kind of like to have seen Republic players have to deal with massive scale invasions (or Empire players for that matter), but that appears to be off the table.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 04:29:29 PM
The multi-stage bonus quests seem to be the closest you get to a public quest. They'll go faster in a group (and usually the end thing involves killing a gold elite or whatever), but they avoid the public quest trap of "fuck, I am the only person here, guess I can't do it at all."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 04:33:41 PM
I'll be honest, a LOT of those quests start to bleed into each other if you play for longer sessions.


Please, please recuse my son/daughter/senator/general/orphan/droid/sickpuppy/alligator. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 04:36:38 PM
Yeah, I imagine 50 levels is a lot of kitten rescuing/puppy kicking.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 04:52:04 PM
Both my Consular in the 367 weekend and my Knight this past weekend were actual characters. They made choices, had a certain way they acted and grew over the first 20ish levels. They disliked some npcs, they liked others. They had good times with other players, who were actually memorable because you interacted with them in the story. In no other mmo since UO has casual roleplay created such memorable characters. I couldn't tell you a single thing about my Rift characters I took to 50, there was the big purple guy and the little guy with the limp bizkit haircut. In EQ2 I played a pale wizard. In both games they did some stuff. Were they good, evil, what did they think about the quests they were accepting?

My black sphere evolves to a purple parallel.

I had a story for my N. Elf Hunter and my DK in WoW, but they were PURELy in my head and not supported by the game at all.

Poor DK never got the $20 Arthas owed him, either.  Kill a man for his money and what do you get?
   Nothing because goddamn undead kings don't carry cash.

Serious question: Does TOR let you play any character you want, or do you have to fit in with the pre-recorded voice acting?

I can appreciate RPGs like Mass Effect 2 (good game), but the role playing element is really tightly controlled. If you're playing with the same feeling as the designers it feels really powerful, but once you escape the programming everything becomes laughable and breaks immersion. Playing a taciturn guy who cares about his team worked for male shep, but trying to play as an "ends justifies the means" fem shep just made me jump between mother teresa's little sister an a comic sneer. Does TOR have this problem too?

I just wonder because it seems that with MMOs the point would seem to be more about carving an individual space, which was easy in something like WoW (original, 'blackrock depths isn't meant to be finished by most of the playerbase', wow) because it had a very strong sense of world and let you loose in it with much more freedom. Even though you had 300 players running about alongside you you felt different, because they were probably doing things in a different order, or aiming at different end goals. Is this lessened when you have 300 similar characters running around following the same path, and you know that 1/3rd of them are making the same choices as you?

P.S. Sky, that screenshot... those are on the lowest graphics? or is that a joke screenshot from another game? (not really following this anywhere outside this forum, but still interested)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 04:59:05 PM
You know, it never occured to me to give even a tiny fuck about what other people are doing. Those people are making similar choices to mine? Well, good on 'em. That's still not the same as my character doing it. I mean, I did DA:O ten times ( :why_so_serious: ) and some of those playthroughs made the same exact choices, but were still distinct characters in my head, because why they made those choices varied.

If you are intent in never just letting go and suspending your disbelief or letting your character just ... do their thing sometimes (you have to do this with the voiced protagonist to some degree, always. And I totally get why some people don't like that, by the way.), then no, this game isn't going to give you the warm fuzzies it gave some of us.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 05:02:51 PM
You know, it never occured to me to give even a tiny fuck about what other people are doing. Those people are making similar choices to mine? Well, good on 'em. That's still not the same as my character doing it. I mean, I did DA:O ten times ( :why_so_serious: ) and some of those playthroughs made the same exact choices, but were still distinct characters in my head, because why they made those choices varied

Yeah but then why are you playing a MMO? I seriously don't get this. Surely you'd just play single player games if that is what you are after? Either the studio is being stupid throwing millions at something people will dump once they've got their single player value, or players are being stupid, throwing MMO money at something they can get cheaper by playing single player games?

I am just confused about what the MMO element is adding in these situations, is it just co-op, or a forum to bond over shared single player experiences?

Edit: Typos.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:04:30 PM
Because it's a shared experience. I can do shit with them if I want to, and I plan to (I enjoyed the flashpoint I did with Ingmar, for example) but I don't think to myself "man oh man, do I need to be the most unique snowflake in this blizzard" or anything.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 05:04:57 PM
You know, it never occured to me to give even a tiny fuck about what other people are doing. Those people are making similar choices to mine? Well, good on 'em. That's still not the same as my character doing it. I mean, I did DA:O ten times ( :why_so_serious: ) and some of those playthroughs made the same exact choices, but were still distinct characters in my head, because why they made those choices varied

Yeah but then why are you playing a MMO? I seriously don't get this. Surely you'd just play single player games if that is what you are after? Either the studio is being stupid throwing millions at something people will dump once they've got their single player value, or players are beign stupid, throwing MMO money at something they can get cheaper by playing single player games?

Because there are *other* areas of content besides just the level up personal quest type stuff? That you do with a group, not to mention the whole shared guild chat experience, etc. It's the same answer it *always* is for "why do people solo in an MMO."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 05:08:31 PM
Because it's a shared experience. I can do shit with them if I want to, and I plan to (I enjoyed the flashpoint I did with Ingmar, for example) but I don't think to myself "man oh man, do I need to be the most unique snowflake in this blizzard" or anything.

How do you define the role if you're sharing an experience with someone who seems to be almost identical? Don't you lose some of that identity? And if not, if it's all in your head, why do you need the game to play it out for you with voice acting?

I am not trying to have a go here, I just obviously have a very different mindset and I struggle to understand the logic behind some of these design choices.

Because there are *other* areas of content besides just the level up personal quest type stuff? That you do with a group, not to mention the whole shared guild chat experience, etc. It's the same answer it *always* is for "why do people solo in an MMO."

I get that, but people here seems to be mostly talking positively about the story driven stuff, with the other MMO stuff being boring and stuck 5 years in the past, so I thought that was the main lure.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 05:11:09 PM
Well given that most of us probably spend 90% of our time in MMOs solo, a much-improved solo experience (to me anyway) seems like a pretty big leap forward.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 05:11:32 PM
You're sharing an experience with the players more than the characters.

Besides, I don't know what all of Ingmar's Consular's choices are. So if he makes one I would have made, it doesn't diminish my character at all in my mind. I have my story, and I have the shared experience of hanging out with other folks doing a story.

I mean, in an awesome world when the group conversations happen, your party would totally squabble about the choice if they picked different things. But that's nowhere near where we are at.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 05:12:23 PM
I expect there to be hilarious consequences to flashpoint dialogue choices, at least in guild chat.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:14:01 PM
Because it's a shared experience. I can do shit with them if I want to, and I plan to (I enjoyed the flashpoint I did with Ingmar, for example) but I don't think to myself "man oh man, do I need to be the most unique snowflake in this blizzard" or anything.

How do you define the role if you're sharing an experience with someone who seems to be almost identical? Don't you lose some of that identity? And if not, if it's all in your head, why do you need the game to play it out for you with voice acting?

I am not trying to have a go here, I just obviously have a very different mindset and I struggle to understand the logic behind some of these design choices.

Because they aren't me? That's the thing about art, see. We can all go see the same play, on the same night, for example. Same exact performance. Technically the same exact experience. But we will ALL take away something different from it, because we are all different people.

So you can playthrough on your ManShep, making the same exact choices as me, down to using the same exact model. But we'll have had different experiences. Because you aren't me. I'm not you. What's important to you is not important to me. Even when there's overlap, well, that's just something we can grin at each other over, saying, "Yeah man, exactly. You get it," rather than "OMG MY IMMERSION."



FAKE EDIT: And Kild, wait until you do some flashpoints with us. There will be fussing.  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 05:14:25 PM
I expect there to be hilarious consequences to flashpoint dialogue choices, at least in guild chat.

My consular is going to spam the "your thanks is all the reward we need" button SO HARD.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 05:15:10 PM
I expect there to be hilarious consequences to flashpoint dialogue choices, at least in guild chat.

My consular is going to spam the "your thanks is all the reward we need" button SO HARD.

While my jedi manwhore spams the "how about a kiss from a pretty lady" one.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:15:47 PM
And my smuggler will be off in the corner making time with all the boys.  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 05:17:07 PM
The only flashpoint I've done in the beta was four jedi, all spamming their light side oh so humble buttons. Quite boring. I think I had the only surprise line, because I thought something slightly snarky would be funny. Turns out the voice for it was downright dickish.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:19:39 PM
Ing was a trooper and I was a consular. He was a much bigger bitch than I was, I think we only actually overlapped responses like ... twice, not including the lightside stuff. It was pretty fun, I look forward to even more slapfights and teasing over that shit.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on November 29, 2011, 05:20:31 PM
My knight walks the line between light and dark making the choices that will keep the galaxy from going to shit.

My Imperial Agent however has a personal code and doesn't trust half of her handlers and none of the sith at all as they're all self-serving bastards that would sell out the entire empire if it meant more power for themselves.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:22:50 PM
My consular was a man with a ridiculous capacity for forgiveness, to the point where other jedi were like "dude, you are too nice." He also took everyone at their word, always, forever. Sort of dumb, really. He even trusted everything Hutts said to him.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 05:25:49 PM
My consular wasn't quite that naive. But I did play up the humble servant of people in need angle a lot. Qyzen was NOT amused.

I just liked the theme of a very humble and peaceful consular who is trying to do his thing in the galaxy, and sighs deeply and atones any time he needs to Force Brain anyone with a priceless urn or droid.

I think I once managed to talk my way out of a fight. Every other time "this doesn't need to come to violence" never actually makes it not come to violence. I think that line just infuriates Sith.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 05:34:53 PM
Because they aren't me? That's the thing about art, see. We can all go see the same play, on the same night, for example. Same exact performance. Technically the same exact experience. But we will ALL take away something different from it, because we are all different people.

So you can playthrough on your ManShep, making the same exact choices as me, down to using the same exact model. But we'll have had different experiences. Because you aren't me. I'm not you. What's important to you is not important to me.

I dunno, it all seems question begging to me. But I'm going to just retire in bafflement.

Well given that most of us probably spend 90% of our time in MMOs solo, a much-improved solo experience (to me anyway) seems like a pretty big leap forward.

This is the answer that makes most sense to me. (I still don't know why people are buying MMOs if they mostly want a single player game, though.)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 05:42:23 PM
I don't see what's so baffling. I don't need to be reassured at every turn that I am a unique person, because I already know I'm a unique person. What you see is not what I see, ever. So you can be playing your dude similarly to mine, but it's just ... still not the same as me or my experience. It's just similar. What *I* don't get is why it burns you so bad that someone might be having a similar experience to you, off on their own. Who cares?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rendakor on November 29, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
This is the answer that makes most sense to me. (I still don't know why people are buying MMOs if they mostly want a single player game, though.)
Some of us wanted KotOR 3; it's not our fault Bioware decided to make it an MMO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 29, 2011, 05:49:18 PM

This is the answer that makes most sense to me. (I still don't know why people are buying MMOs if they mostly want a single player game, though.)

That word "mostly" is pretty important. And when you're playing in an active guild, even that "solo" gameplay time is not solo in a social sense, since you still have all the trappings of your guild line, etc. It feels very different to me than say, playing Skyrim solo and chatting with all the same people in IRC.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 06:09:02 PM
I don't see what's so baffling. I don't need to be reassured at every turn that I am a unique person, because I already know I'm a unique person. What you see is not what I see, ever. So you can be playing your dude similarly to mine, but it's just ... still not the same as me or my experience. It's just similar. What *I* don't get is why it burns you so bad that someone might be having a similar experience to you, off on their own. Who cares?

If I was playing a RPG with my friends and everyone decided to be a elf mage I'd decide to be something other than an elf mage, because diversity of character would make the game more fun for me (and I would hope everyone else). It has little to do with me as a person and how I want to be seen and more to do with having an experience that is filled with diversity and different possibilities.

What you see is not what I see, sure. What I see today is not what I see tomorrow either. That doesn't mean I'm content to watch the same movie for the rest of my life, only see productions of Hamlet, or only eat Indian food.

Some people are more content with that kind of stuff, they are much more self contained. That doesn't mean it burns me up. The relationship between your self-contained experience an the MMO bit is something I don't really understand, and I thought I might be able to get a little insight.


This is the answer that makes most sense to me. (I still don't know why people are buying MMOs if they mostly want a single player game, though.)

That word "mostly" is pretty important. And when you're playing in an active guild, even that "solo" gameplay time is not solo in a social sense, since you still have all the trappings of your guild line, etc. It feels very different to me than say, playing Skyrim solo and chatting with all the same people in IRC.

I get that.

I would rather play Skyrim the MMO than Mass Effect 2 the MMO if I had to choose though. (I would rather just play them both as single player games, really).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 06:12:57 PM
Now I'm confused. We aren't all elf mages to begin with?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 06:14:21 PM
But in the fiction of the world there is more than 1 elf mage. It's entirely possible for there to be 400 of them in an area (unless your personal fiction is you are the LAST ONE ALIVE, which is hard to maintain unless the game makes that the premise)

The suspension of disbelief in SWTOR is that all those other Jedi Knights aren't on the same super mission you are, and you just happen to meet them in the world to team up and do X activity. But you're still the only one doing your great personal quest.

Heck, four troopers would make perfect RP sense.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 06:18:27 PM
Now I'm confused. We aren't all elf mages to begin with?
I'm the druid who dances on your mailbox, thankyouverymuch.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 29, 2011, 06:18:35 PM
My consular wasn't quite that naive. But I did play up the humble servant of people in need angle a lot. Qyzen was NOT amused.

I just liked the theme of a very humble and peaceful consular who is trying to do his thing in the galaxy, and sighs deeply and atones any time he needs to Force Brain anyone with a priceless urn or droid.

I think I once managed to talk my way out of a fight. Every other time "this doesn't need to come to violence" never actually makes it not come to violence. I think that line just infuriates Sith.

These are the kinds of things I never hear anyone saying about playing other MMOs -- and it makes me glad to know there's something to talk about other than skill trees and stat bumps.

One of my friends loves Vette's shock collar and uses it on her frequently. (I don't think I'll get the same pleasure from it that he seems to.) But it's a refreshingly different conversation about an MMO experience.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 06:20:18 PM
But in the fiction of the world there is more than 1 elf mage. It's entirely possible for there to be 400 of them in an area (unless your personal fiction is you are the LAST ONE ALIVE, which is hard to maintain unless the game makes that the premise)

Heck, four troopers would make perfect RP sense.

I only meant the mages comment in regard to the assertion that "everything is in our heads anyway", not in regards to SWTOR.

Quote
The suspension of disbelief in SWTOR is that all those other Jedi Knights aren't on the same super mission you are, and you just happen to meet them in the world to team up and do X activity. But you're still the only one doing your great personal quest.

I guess I get this, it just seems a strange ruse for a multi-player game to go with "you're the hero of the world, and though those others look like they might be too, don't believe it for a second!" than "you're all in this together".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 06:23:11 PM
I guess I get this, it just seems a strange ruse for a multi-player game to go with "you're the hero of the world, and though those others look like they might be too, don't believe it for a second!" than "you're all in this together".
I don't think the MMO setup explicitly rules out others from being heroes as well -- the part that's make-believe is that they're being heroes by doing missions other than the very ones you did yourself, not whether they do anything heroic at all.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 29, 2011, 06:26:29 PM
This is the answer that makes most sense to me. (I still don't know why people are buying MMOs if they mostly want a single player game, though.)

You're thinking wayyy too hard.  Some of the time you want to take the character you played in your single player game and do some persistent multiplayer stuff.   It's that simple.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 06:31:27 PM
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

When you team up, you just weave in the fiction that these are people you found/hired/whatevered and are storming this rebel hideout with. The fact that they are your same character class is meaningless, because your class isn't what makes the character unique.

If anything, the jarring bit would be another Male Jedi Knight who sounds just like you. But you just have to roll with that. It's the same odd feeling when you see a youtube video of the WRONG GODDAMNED SHEPARD speaking with your Shepard's voice.

quick edit: Jesus christ, am I really arguing that stats and whatnot don't matter, and it's all about the evolution of the narrative fiction? What the fuck?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on November 29, 2011, 06:40:27 PM
Welcome to the Dark Side, my young apprentice.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on November 29, 2011, 06:47:07 PM
It's really not that hard to get over the mechanics and just enjoy your playing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 06:47:49 PM
I guess I get this, it just seems a strange ruse for a multi-player game to go with "you're the hero of the world, and though those others look like they might be too, don't believe it for a second!" than "you're all in this together".


Except the game doesn't tell you this at all. You aren't the CHOSEN ONE or anything. You are exceptional yes, but there are other exceptional people too, on both sides of the conflict. The Galaxy is a big place, there are plenty of Imps for the other Troopers to go squash.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on November 29, 2011, 06:50:37 PM
Jesus christ, am I really arguing that stats and whatnot don't matter, and it's all about the evolution of the narrative fiction? What the fuck?

You are the music maker, you are the dreamer of dreams
Wandering by lone RNG-breakers, sitting at desolate screens
Roll loser and rule forsaker, on whom the pale dice gleams
Yet you are the mover and shaker, of the world forever, it seems.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 06:56:46 PM
But in the fiction of the world there is more than 1 elf mage. It's entirely possible for there to be 400 of them in an area (unless your personal fiction is you are the LAST ONE ALIVE, which is hard to maintain unless the game makes that the premise)

Heck, four troopers would make perfect RP sense.

I only meant the mages comment in regard to the assertion that "everything is in our heads anyway", not in regards to SWTOR.

That's not quite what I'm saying. I honestly can't explain it any better, though. But it doesn't bother me to run into another elf mage when I myself am an elf mage. Partly because of course there are other elf mages. That elf mage might even be good at the same things mine is good at. S/he might look like me. But s/he isn't me. S/he's not having the same experience I am. I don't dislike him or her any more than the other people in the movie theater I'm watching a movie at. We're all having a shared, similar experience. But none of them are going to take the same shit away from it I am. A lot of them probably aren't even there for the same reasons I am.


EDIT: I mean shit, thinking about the "we're all elf mages" thing. There are plenty of ways that can be a diverse experience. You put a lot of damn emphasis on fluff that ultimately, in a character sense, is superficial.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 29, 2011, 07:11:37 PM
It's not a real example, it's a discussion point. I was going to put in "of course, all of us being elf mages could actually be fun in a couple of ways once or twice", but I assumed people would understand the point and not the specific example I gave.

I'm not sure where all this negative energy you are associating with me comes from. I'm not saying your child is ugly and a hate him...

Anyway, I don't get it and you don't get what I'm asking, but there's no point dragging it out anymore. Enjoy the game, I hope it's fun times.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 29, 2011, 07:18:39 PM
P.S. Sky, that screenshot... those are on the lowest graphics? or is that a joke screenshot from another game? (not really following this anywhere outside this forum, but still interested)
It's from the login screen. Normally you're never zoomed in that close, it does look worse than I remember it in the actual game (the blurry texture). It looks as bad as the first night I was complaining before I fixed it via restart, so I wonder if there's a low res thing for the select screen or something. The graphics certainly aren't Skyrim, but I like them. Here's what he looks like at a normal zoom level in the character creator (I took screens of my 8 intended launch dudes to remember the settings!):
Well given that most of us probably spend 90% of our time in MMOs solo, a much-improved solo experience (to me anyway) seems like a pretty big leap forward.
Not to mention that bizarrely I'm excited for grouping and led many groups through the two beta weekends. I mean...that's the express to crazy town, right there.

Following the vein of response spam: my Guardian is a fan of "Death is part of the natural order of the universe" or whatever that line is. I heard that one a few times, NOT SURE WHY *stab with lightsaber*


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 29, 2011, 07:25:29 PM
Quote
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

That gets awful hard when they have the exact same best friend helping them.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 07:27:10 PM
A RNG for companions appearance (or a way to tweak their sliders. or both) would be nice.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:29:46 PM
They do have ways to change their appearance but yeah, more of those with easier access to them would be nice. Although I honestly didn't really care with regards to the first companion for consulars, all those lizard dudes look the same to me anyway.  :why_so_serious:  And for the knights, a T7 is a T7 is a T7. :P


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 07:33:32 PM
But the droids could totally have swappable heads/legs/whatevers :drill:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 29, 2011, 07:35:17 PM
They do have appearance kits that basically do that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:35:22 PM
It's one of those things that will probably happen eventually (beyond what they already have now, of course), but it's not important enough for release, so it gets punted along. Every captain in LotRO had the same hobo following them around at first, after all.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: taolurker on November 29, 2011, 07:35:42 PM
Quote
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

That gets awful hard when they have the exact same best friend helping them.
This was the more glaring immersion break than a group of duplicates of me all standing around quest NPCs with ellipses over their heads.

I still don't see how this game equates to a subscription, or where there's all this massive content to consume. I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:36:12 PM
If you honestly mean "no one," I will take that bet.  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 29, 2011, 07:37:08 PM
It's one of those things that will probably happen eventually (beyond what they already have now, of course), but it's not important enough for release, so it gets punted along. Every captain in LotRO had the same hobo following them around at first, after all.

And tailors craft the variant Captain followers out of cloth patterns!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:38:04 PM
I actually was kinda fond of my hobo, back in the day. I did eventually magically poof him into a mustached red-head, though. He was pretty adorable.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 29, 2011, 07:40:07 PM
If you honestly mean "no one," I will take that bet.  :grin:

And you'll win, per my previous post on this topic. I'm pretty sure I'll be subbed for a year just due to my glacial pace of content consumption.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:41:50 PM
You and I can chat about boys or whatever when no one else is there any more.  :drillf:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 07:44:42 PM
Hmm on rather unrelated note went to check the classes list on the swtor webside, and it seems that for some unexplained reasons since last i saw it they've replaced the female consular with a fat dude in a dress. Weird.

And yes, he tosses the oil tanks :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 29, 2011, 07:46:22 PM
The fat dude in a dress has been around for a while, I thought? I didn't actually even realize there had been a chick consular person at all! I'm terrible at this.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 29, 2011, 07:49:35 PM
That's possible, it's been really loooong time when i last saw it. They still didn't have all starships announced yet, i think?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 29, 2011, 08:08:24 PM
I don't think I ever actually saw an oil tank. A few droids, a LOT of valuable looking ancient pottery.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 29, 2011, 09:19:52 PM
You and I can chat about boys or whatever when no one else is there any more.  :drillf:

Absolutely. I do my best to make a few beefcake toons when I can, but I'm also partial to making psychotic looking toons as well. I loved my fully pierced and tatted BH.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 12:09:47 AM
I still don't see how this game equates to a subscription, or where there's all this massive content to consume. I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

I'll be playing quite a lot and it will still take me at least 2 months just to play through all the storylines.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 12:19:42 AM
Quote
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

That gets awful hard when they have the exact same best friend helping them.
This was the more glaring immersion break than a group of duplicates of me all standing around quest NPCs with ellipses over their heads.

I still don't see how this game equates to a subscription, or where there's all this massive content to consume. I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

2 months seems like a low estimate, but aside from Sjofn (who is a special case and will probably need additional subscriptions to fit in all the alts) pretty much everyone posting here has said they expect the fun to run out in months rather than years.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 12:34:52 AM
You and I can chat about boys or whatever when no one else is there any more.  :drillf:

Absolutely. I do my best to make a few beefcake toons when I can, but I'm also partial to making psychotic looking toons as well. I loved my fully pierced and tatted BH.

Ahaha, that dude means business. I bet he always gets paid on time.

I didn't take any screen shots of my people, I am terrible at this.

Also, eldaec, I ... probably won't need a second account. Probably.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 30, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
well you have 8 slots, and basically 8 classes, with 8 stories. I can't really think of a reason to have two accounts. Then again, we had a disc priest that had 3 disc priests on our server, 2 alliance, 1 horde and another one on a different server. She was a bit crazy.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 01:08:14 AM
Sjofn has like 15 paladins.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: cironian on November 30, 2011, 01:08:27 AM
I did remember to make a screenshot of the settings, but looking at it now all my screenshots came out completely black. Yay, beta! :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 01:24:57 AM
Sjofn has like 15 paladins.

Two.


Alright, three, if we count the one I've been leveling recently. But that's all!  :why_so_serious:

And I ... I do see myself potentially wanting two consulars. I really like the sage, but the ... other one (shadow or whatever) also seemed pretty nifty and would go nicely with Boyfriend Candidate #1. Decisions.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on November 30, 2011, 01:38:18 AM
I wanted to link the Gonzalez song decisions, but it was going to take more then a single youtube search and I got distracted.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 30, 2011, 01:40:45 AM
And I ... I do see myself potentially wanting two consulars. I really like the sage, but the ... other one (shadow or whatever) also seemed pretty nifty and would go nicely with Boyfriend Candidate #1. Decisions.

I'd do a mirror class first. The replayability is pretty minor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 01:47:58 AM
That is not how I roll. I will, of course, have a sith inquisitor (because he is delicious). But I'm serious about kinda wanting my consular to work well with Mr. Potential Boyfriend. At the same time, I would want a sage, because sages are fun and that's the style I'd want to play in a group. And she could have one of the OTHER boyfriends (They get three! That class is trying so hard to win me away from the arms of the smuggler!).


IF THEY ALLOWED AC SWITCHING THIS WOULDN'T BE A GODDAMN PROBLEM


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 30, 2011, 01:49:38 AM
Welcome to the Dark Side, my young apprentice.
Hmm now that  you mention it your avatar remind of Lord Zash


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 30, 2011, 02:02:42 AM
Quote
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

That gets awful hard when they have the exact same best friend helping them.
This was the more glaring immersion break than a group of duplicates of me all standing around quest NPCs with ellipses over their heads.

I still don't see how this game equates to a subscription, or where there's all this massive content to consume. I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

2 months seems like a low estimate, but aside from Sjofn (who is a special case and will probably need additional subscriptions to fit in all the alts) pretty much everyone posting here has said they expect the fun to run out in months rather than years.

Well no shit, nobody is ready to commit themselves to playing this game for years when it hasn't even launched yet.  Seeing their plans post-launch would be a bigger indicator as to the game's longevity than just about anything I saw playing the beta.  How the game is handled after it releases is pretty damn important.  I thought WAR was a pretty good game for the most part, and was a few tweaks away from being great.  Instead they moved in the wrong direction, adding more xp bars, a required PVE grind for gear needed for PVP, and they thought that the best way to encourage RVR was to make servers with a No Scenario ruleset.  So yeah, speaking for myself, about all I can say for sure right now, is that they have me for at least a month or two and we'll see how things go from there.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 30, 2011, 02:05:22 AM
That is not how I roll. I will, of course, have a sith inquisitor (because he is delicious). But I'm serious about kinda wanting my consular to work well with Mr. Potential Boyfriend. At the same time, I would want a sage, because sages are fun and that's the style I'd want to play in a group. And she could have one of the OTHER boyfriends (They get three! That class is trying so hard to win me away from the arms of the smuggler!).


IF THEY ALLOWED AC SWITCHING THIS WOULDN'T BE A GODDAMN PROBLEM

If you're going to have one anyway my point is moot  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 30, 2011, 02:09:01 AM
That is not how I roll. I will, of course, have a sith inquisitor (because he is delicious). But I'm serious about kinda wanting my consular to work well with Mr. Potential Boyfriend. At the same time, I would want a sage, because sages are fun and that's the style I'd want to play in a group. And she could have one of the OTHER boyfriends (They get three! That class is trying so hard to win me away from the arms of the smuggler!).


IF THEY ALLOWED AC SWITCHING THIS WOULDN'T BE A GODDAMN PROBLEM


Look at it this way, you'll probably eventually have at least 32 characters anyway since you'll be compelled to do light and darkside playthroughs of each gender for each class.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 02:41:49 AM
How up to date are the betacake talent trees? Trying to work out how the specs actually play out.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 30, 2011, 03:26:24 AM
How up to date are the betacake talent trees? Trying to work out how the specs actually play out.

Pick your poison.  Betacake's fallen out of favor since the NDA dropped and the pro's could get their game on.

http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill
http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/guardian/


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on November 30, 2011, 03:32:23 AM
Quote
You can assume everyone has a mission, they're just not on YOUR mission. You have a story arc that is yours, and you just kind of forget that everyone else is on it as well.

That gets awful hard when they have the exact same best friend helping them.
This was the more glaring immersion break than a group of duplicates of me all standing around quest NPCs with ellipses over their heads.

I still don't see how this game equates to a subscription, or where there's all this massive content to consume. I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

2 months seems like a low estimate, but aside from Sjofn (who is a special case and will probably need additional subscriptions to fit in all the alts) pretty much everyone posting here has said they expect the fun to run out in months rather than years.

Then I must be a special case too, because the only thing i see myself even pausing for when this launches is ME3.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on November 30, 2011, 04:14:38 AM
I did remember to make a screenshot of the settings, but looking at it now all my screenshots came out completely black. Yay, beta! :uhrr:


Yep, happened to me too :(


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on November 30, 2011, 04:17:55 AM
If you honestly mean "no one," I will take that bet.  :grin:
If he makes it for more than the cost of a sub during that period, I'll take it, too. ;D


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 04:30:16 AM
That is not how I roll. I will, of course, have a sith inquisitor (because he is delicious). But I'm serious about kinda wanting my consular to work well with Mr. Potential Boyfriend. At the same time, I would want a sage, because sages are fun and that's the style I'd want to play in a group. And she could have one of the OTHER boyfriends (They get three! That class is trying so hard to win me away from the arms of the smuggler!).


IF THEY ALLOWED AC SWITCHING THIS WOULDN'T BE A GODDAMN PROBLEM


Look at it this way, you'll probably eventually have at least 32 characters anyway since you'll be compelled to do light and darkside playthroughs of each gender for each class.

<eye twitch>

Why are you encouraging my sickness?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Cyrrex on November 30, 2011, 05:18:09 AM
Skipped the last several pages of this thread, but here are my biggest two gripes:

- The No Clownsuit button needs to come back, but more importantly, they seriously need to add some better cosmetic options.  Everybody runs around looking the goddamned same.  Bugs me far worse than comp armor in SWG.  They need to open up the color pallette and give us some options in a major way.

- I don't know how they could easily address it, and we could see it coming from a mile off, but it also bugs me that all the companions look the same as everyone elses.  You can level up in a zone and see exact copies of yourself and your own companion, down to every last piece of clothing, all over the place.  It makes me wish there was a "play offline" button.

Do either of these things get better later on?  I only ever made it to about 14 in an earlier beta.

Also, didn't there used to be a "loot all mobs" button?  I know there was in my first beta, but I never found it the second time around.

Otherwise, it's the bees knees.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 30, 2011, 05:40:15 AM
Loot all is a tick box under preferences...either controls or UI. However it would bug out and you'd have to shift-click to get it working again.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 30, 2011, 05:46:18 AM
- I don't know how they could easily address it, and we could see it coming from a mile off, but it also bugs me that all the companions look the same as everyone elses.  You can level up in a zone and see exact copies of yourself and your own companion, down to every last piece of clothing, all over the place.  It makes me wish there was a "play offline" button.

You can, allegedly, buy customisation kits for your companion to change things like skin colour (see official blog (http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110923)) and I guess, on later levels, it'll be less of an issue because people will have different companions and different classes.

But yeah, on starter worlds it was annoying. Also annoying was hearing other peoples companions all the time.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on November 30, 2011, 05:51:38 AM
Also annoying was hearing other peoples companions all the time.

Oh dear God this! I wanted to strangle Mako after a while...

Quote from: Mako
Okay?
Try to be more careful next time.
Okay?
Okay?

They need to add an audio option so you can choose to not hear companions, only your own or everyone's. Other than that, playing a Powertech with a pocket healer was a lot of fun.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 05:51:57 AM
- I don't know how they could easily address it, and we could see it coming from a mile off, but it also bugs me that all the companions look the same as everyone elses.  You can level up in a zone and see exact copies of yourself and your own companion, down to every last piece of clothing, all over the place.  It makes me wish there was a "play offline" button.

This is only a problem at low levels.    Stop worrying about it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 30, 2011, 05:57:48 AM
I think there's a Mako bug. I kept hearing her on a couple of planets, but nowhere in visibility was there a Mako.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on November 30, 2011, 06:03:43 AM
They need to add an audio option so you can choose to not hear companions, only your own or everyone's. Other than that, playing a Powertech with a pocket healer was a lot of fun.

I think there's a bug where you hear other companions even when nobody else is about. I've frequently been in the middle of nowhere, with nobody else in sight, and heard Mako or Khem Val when I've been on my Sith Warrior or Bounty Hunter respectively.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on November 30, 2011, 06:41:10 AM
Oh, well hopefully there's a fix for it in the patch they're currently deploying as it was probably the only truly annoying thing I encountered the whole weekend. Well, that and the unmovable interface which sadly isn't a bug :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 30, 2011, 06:50:12 AM
Really have to wonder if the audio companion speech bug was related to my random d/c's. Seemed to always happen when an audio was firing off. And since I had just updated to the newest audio driver for my mobo, I doubt it was on my end.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: VainEldritch on November 30, 2011, 06:53:17 AM
You can, allegedly, buy customisation kits for your companion to change things like skin colour (see official blog (http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110923)) and I guess, on later levels, it'll be less of an issue because people will have different companions and different classes.


Is companion appearance working as intended? In the blog they do mention a full set of armor slots but as we know, none of the armor actually appears on the companion (I'm talking about Khem Val here). You do get a choice of companion customization kits that changes skin color/tatoos but this is very limited.

I know they also said the at CE store would have some unique companion appearance kits available - still they need to get the appearance slots working for Khem and this will really help avoid the clone wars.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 30, 2011, 06:58:43 AM
You can, allegedly, buy customisation kits for your companion to change things like skin colour (see official blog (http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20110923)) and I guess, on later levels, it'll be less of an issue because people will have different companions and different classes.


Is companion appearance working as intended? In the blog they do mention a full set of armor slots but as we know, none of the armor actually appears on the companion (I'm talking about Khem Val here). You do get a choice of companion customization kits that changes skin color/tatoos but this is very limited.

I know they also said the at CE store would have some unique companion appearance kits available - still they need to get the appearance slots working for Khem and this will really help avoid the clone wars.

Khem is the odd one out. Sadly, I think there will just have to be 400 identical Khems. However, the other companions you can style out with different armors. The blue armor piece the drops in BT makes Mako look bad ass.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 07:03:58 AM
I like the anti-clown button, but I still want an appearance tab. It's just a pain in the ass to not have one. I guess in that I'm like the folks bitching about not allowing whatever raid feature :) Also, an appearance tab for the companions.

The companion speech bug was driving me nuts this past weekend. Also a couple times there were npc conversations that seemed to bypass a range check and played full volume through the entire exchange.

As far as years vs months goes, I've ALREADY gotten my money's worth out of TOR, in hours played, and I was only in two weekend tests.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 30, 2011, 07:10:09 AM
I know that by the time my Sith Warrior was done on the newb planet, I was given two separate choices for Vette-specific goods; three choices for clothing gear and three choices for physical appearance.  Really wish I could have previewed the clothing options before picking, but because it was a chest of goods your were picking, you couldn't.  The physical choices you could, and I could have gotten a yellow Vette, a red Vette, or an alternative looking blue Vette.

One can assume that there will be more choices down the line for all companions.  Plus, there are a few companions that have alternative looks to them, such as Vette (with or without her choking collar), and Dr. Lokin.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 30, 2011, 07:15:52 AM
I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

Oh, I will totally take that bet.

Can you rename your Companions?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on November 30, 2011, 07:19:59 AM
Can you rename your Companions?

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 30, 2011, 07:23:57 AM
You cannot rename them.  And yes, most companions have a variety of appearance mods you can purchase.  Khem and Qyzen do not right now but that may change in the next build or by release.  Between those and the different gear you pick up there is enough variety for mid ranges.  Honestly, after awhile you stop noticing companions.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on November 30, 2011, 07:35:25 AM
I also am willing to bet no one from this site who buys this at launch will be around 2 months into live.

This is exactly my point. I bought the game and I have a bunch of friends I am gonna have fun with thanks to the storytelling power (a first for a MMORPG). But we all agree that the game is a circa-2008 sloppy clone of WoW and as such there would be zero reasons to play it if it wasn't for the lack of other new MMORPGs.

What's surprising me is NOT that people are having fun. I am having fun too, I keep stressing this, and I am gonna be there on launch day with my own cat ass ready and willing to spend at least a good month exploring the Mass-Effectesque plots. But the enthusiasm coming from the novelty of the Bioware treatment to the old (and poorly executed) formula of diku doesn't prevent me from saying that everything outside the stories here ranges from bland to shit.

What surprises me is that the majority here seem unable to distinguish between the the puppy love (which is cute), and the overall quality of the product in its genre. A good friend of mine summarized his brief SWTOR experience with: "It's a piece of shit, but I'm having fun for now (4 days)". I agree, I think it sounds contradictory but it's not.
I'm a little worried by the regulars here, who've see everything and you would expect capable of usefully cynical commentary, too busy frothing to notice the blatant shortcomings of this game.

So yes, I bet that even before the two months mark there will be lots of broken hearts, pretending it didn't happen or blaming it on someone else.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 30, 2011, 07:37:12 AM
Sloppy? Its a rather good clone to be honest.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 30, 2011, 07:47:26 AM
It is a poor clone in the sense that it's cloning something that has since been improved. It would be like carbon copying your competition's car designs from 1992 instead of copying the improved versions.

The thing for me is that the mechanics they cloned aren't bad, they're just unpolished. And the crap they added to the mechanics amuse me (specifically combat looks far more interesting, even if nothing mechanically is different. They added a very pretty set of wrappers to "Instant: Deals 34-46 fire damage to target" and even "press this to just plain shoot someone as filler" is pretty looking.

I do appreciate that they cloned the whole abilities playing off each other thing WoW did. I think Rift missed there, where pretty much stormcallers were the only class where X skill impacted Y skill if used in the correct order.

SWTOR is a clone of a game we've all played before, with a really pretty wrapper and what amounts to softly enforced RP rules due to the impact the story has on how you actually wind up playing the game. It will stick with people who like that, and it won't stick with MMO nomads who don't like that. Normally I'd be in the second camp and planning to drift off in a few months, but the game is oddly sticking with me more than I thought it would.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on November 30, 2011, 07:47:57 AM
Really?
Maybe I aged bad, and I got so cynical I became blind then.

It's a cheap clone to me. Nothing feels or looks right outside of cutscenes. The same subtly tiring feeling you have with any generic f2p Korean clone.

Time will tell who's really confused here. I accept it could be me. We'll see.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on November 30, 2011, 07:49:52 AM
What surprises me is that the majority here seem unable to distinguish between the the puppy love (which is cute), and the overall quality of the product in its genre. A good friend of mine summarized his brief SWTOR experience with: "It's a piece of shit, but I'm having fun for now (4 days)". I agree, I think it sounds contradictory but it's not.

I don't know about "the majority here," but I'm not in the beta (don't want to), and I haven't read reviews or details of the game anywhere else except here, and I got exactly the "it's shit but I'm having fun for now" impression from this thread, together with details about which parts are shit and which parts I can expect to be ok.

What you call "puppy love" is more along the lines of happiness that they're having fun now.  For example, the thread is pretty negative about the future (endgame, raiding, etc), and a lot of the positive posts begin with "I'm only level 15, so..."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 07:49:58 AM
SWTOR is a clone of a game we've all played before, with a really pretty wrapper and what amounts to softly enforced RP rules due to the impact the story has on how you actually wind up playing the game. It will stick with people who like that, and it won't stick with MMO nomads who don't like that. Normally I'd be in the second camp and planning to drift off in a few months, but the game is oddly sticking with me more than I thought it would.

I'm almost certain that exact thing would have been said about WoW when it came out and EQ was the standard.

Also, Falc has gone off the deep end of doomcasting it seems.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 08:31:56 AM
What surprises me is that the majority here seem unable to distinguish between the the puppy love (which is cute), and the overall quality of the product in its genre. A good friend of mine summarized his brief SWTOR experience with: "It's a piece of shit, but I'm having fun for now (4 days)". I agree, I think it sounds contradictory but it's not.
I'm a little worried by the regulars here, who've see everything and you would expect capable of usefully cynical commentary, too busy frothing to notice the blatant shortcomings of this game.
I'm more concerned with this trend of thinking that because people enjoy it and aren't all bunched up because it's not ZOMG 2011 MECHANICS translates to some kind of flaw.

Rift has GREAT mechanics, revolutionized (or at least seriously evolved on the brink of revolution) several systems...but it's a boring game to play. TOR is fun. For some, the mechanics aren't as important as whether or not the game is fun. I think it's great having both games out there. If mechanics are your thing, there's your game over there. I guess maybe I'm surprised how much people seem to really dislike this game but continue to talk about it. I don't like WoW, but I'm not in there posting about it. Bizarre. I'd rather spend time talking about games I do like.
It will stick with people who like that, and it won't stick with MMO nomads who don't like that.
That sums it up pretty well. But what exactly WOULD stick with mmo nomads? WoW2? I'm ok with the fact it's not TOR, since I tend to dislike the things the 'mmo vets' like.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 08:41:19 AM
Really?
Maybe I aged bad, and I got so cynical I became blind then.

Or you wish they would have made other choices and you're mistaking that ideal for quality?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on November 30, 2011, 08:45:33 AM
Again, it's about expectations: I'm a casual MMO gamer. I play MMOs * in between* CRPGs and other games. If I'll ever manage to exhaust all eight storylines, at my pace I'll do so in about 10 months or maybe a little more.

Also, I'm here for the Story and a bit of roleplaying, not for the diku mechanics, which I hate; but it's a Bioware product, hence I'm expecting to be entertained by the stories they will tell. For a true MMO experience, I'll look at ArcheAge and other sandbox oriented products, certainly not artificial dikus with the silly and borin' trinity and whatnot (and again, I can see past it with TOR because other aspects of the game make it interesting enough).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 08:50:27 AM
So I was randomly looking at some item lists.

Practically everything has bind on equip/pickup. Firstly, when do designers intend to get tired of this less-than-worthless mechanic? Secondly, surely it can't be on every damn thing - Darthhater's database has literally nothing without bind on whatever?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 08:52:07 AM
I don't necessarily hate diku mechanics, any more than I hate shooter mechanics. I think it goes south when people obsess to the nth degree over them, which is probably the root cause of my issues with mmo. Lots of people spend way too much time digging way too deep; and if the game doesn't reward that it's clunky and easy and simplistic. Whereas I see the mechanics as just being there to support the story in the case of TOR, and don't find the mechanics bad because they're fun and I'm shooting stuff with droid parts and chopping with lightsabers and force leaping and not worrying how to squeeze the last 1% of efficiency out of my rotation or whatever.

Two entirely different approaches, and I personally hope BWA continues to follow the path they have and not cater to the more obsessive end of the spectrum. There are games out there for that, but not much out there in mmo land for the more casual end of the spectrum.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 30, 2011, 08:52:13 AM
Quote
Or you wish they would have made other choices and you're mistaking that ideal for quality?

At least for me, I don't think so. Yeah, I'd have implemented companions differently--instead of 8 quests for 8 companions, I'd have had 1 quest with 8 forks that anyone could choose. I would have gone lighter on the cut scenes. But that's not quality.

Quality is the rebel spaceship through the window just plain not moving in BT and looking like something from AO. It's, I dunno, jarring. Quality is the light saber poking through my leku. And honestly, you can make a claim that a LFG system or dual spec are choices, but I think they're quality issues at this point. And llack of a configurable UI in 2011 is absolutely a quality issue.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 30, 2011, 09:16:32 AM
I'm almost certain that exact thing would have been said about WoW when it came out and EQ was the standard.

I have been unbelievably bored at work today so.... from pre-release WoW threads that are 7 years old:

It's not that I don't like the graphics. I liked them.

5 YEARS AGO.

Oh and I noticed some type of animation was attached. the weapons just go through shit and I can run through enemies, etc etc. It's crap. For the amount of money they spent - a better product should have come out of it.


...

2. Too bad it still looks like shit at 1280x1024. Shit as in, could have been out 4 years ago.

...

Cons:
1. If you are going to record voices, don't do little greeting generic ones. Go full bore.
2. It's Everquest 1, you lying fuckers.


Quote
Seriously, have they even played other MMOGs to understand some of the advances that have been made since 1998?

That is pretty much my summation of WOW right there. It's Velius era EQ in gameplay design and technology.

...

I felt like I was in a fully directed single player game. In fact, the intense directed experience frankly hurt my feelings of immersion a great deal. To me it had far too much direction.

If you are upset that WoW has nothing revolutionary, you haven't ever read anything about the game ever.  WoW is not intended to be revolutionary, it is squarely aimed at being "EQ done right."  No HAM system here, sorry.

It's a single player game for everyone until 20, and if you want it can be a single player game to the level cap.   WoWs legs entirely depend on the PvP (not implemented) high level group instances (which have been A+ so far, but there probably won't be enough to keep your attention forever after hitting the cap) and raid content (not implemented) so that's all a toss up right now.


Bonus quote:

There will always be the two extremes in pre-release MMOs, the doomsdayers and the fanbois. They will always exist whenever there is uncertainty in how the game is going to turn out for launch. What intrigues me about WoW that didn't intrigue me about other games:

- The doomsdayers are having to work harder at pointing out why WoW will suck. The stability issues are getting better than average reviews from beta, which is something that I've never really heard from other games. Largely, you have to look at the high level stuff as the question mark and PvP, but the low-level fun content is getting good PR. Frankly, the biggest hits are lodged at the community at large which in my opinion is could only be marginally worse than every other game's l33t squads. If you are tired of dumbasses in game, then don't bother with multiplayer.

- There is a non-NDA beta, which not only inspires confidence in the project but also the idea that you can get more than just one viewpoint on the game. Frankly, with that beta, inevitably you will find out both sides of the good and bad from both the extremes, and hopefully the middle ground. Open information is good and will only serve to middle the largely vocal hype/bash outliers with quantity. The only thing that bothers me is that PvP is tightly guarded info-wise, which in my book means it will suck. Past experience favors the doomsday group when something is not reported on much as a key feature, like PvP.

- The length of development seems to be a good sign that WoW isn't trying to be quick and dirty with the testing process. I don't get the sense of a "shove it out the door" policy yet, but that's not to say it won't show up. Certainly, it's really too early to bumpfuzzle Blizzard on their cycle, but it shows promise, and should things turn tide we would hear quickly.

I'm not licking my chops over the impending feast yet, but I am actually paying attention to some of the info coming out of this development. I won't be making any pre-orders or first month subs, but I do think this game has solid odds on being fun while not revoluationary. If that's the case I'll give it a whirl for a while.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 30, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
Any of us can come up with a list of things we wish they did differently.  For now they kept it simple.  I see that as a good thing.  For me, this game is not the shitty grindfest that another game others insist on using as comparison is.  They have a few new features but the game does not take lots of chances.  Sure, we can fault them for that, but not really blame them with the money invested.  I am having fun.  You are not forced to play x hours a night to compete/experience content and that is healthy.  If all you want to do is raid raid raid this is not the game for you.

SWTOR will make money.  In 6 months?  Who knows?  Let's see how launch goes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 30, 2011, 09:19:45 AM
That's some of the nicest stuff I said about WoW. You should find the really nasty stuff. (Still don't really like it, I play it off and on because of friends and that it has a raiding scene--which is probably what will happen with SWTOR.)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on November 30, 2011, 09:35:00 AM
Time will tell who's really confused here. I accept it could be me. We'll see.

I think if there's one thing that is shining through here, it is that you either 'get it' or you don't with SWTOR - or to use a differently biased phrasing, you're either bedazzled by the illusions or you aren't (and EVERY mmo relies on illusions). If it isn't working for you, and all you can focus on is the puppet's strings overhead, this isn't going to work for you.

There's a valid conversation to be had about the whys and wherefores, I'm sure.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
I'm losing track of who is arguing what is a good/bad thing here.

I don't think anyone disagrees that we're looking at WoW design, which is in turn not substantially different from EQ1 apart from the grind.

It could still be fun or not fun, however limited it is. Even WoW was fun for a few weeks.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on November 30, 2011, 09:47:34 AM
Time will tell who's really confused here. I accept it could be me. We'll see.

I think if there's one thing that is shining through here, it is that you either 'get it' or you don't with SWTOR - or to use a differently biased phrasing, you're either bedazzled by the illusions or you aren't (and EVERY mmo relies on illusions). If it isn't working for you, and all you can focus on is the puppet's strings overhead, this isn't going to work for you.

There's a valid conversation to be had about the whys and wherefores, I'm sure.


To clarify: I am loving the stories and the cutscenes, and the companions. I am loving that illusion, to the point I don't care that my decisions are fake. That's why I am buying a game filled with suck.
I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nonentity on November 30, 2011, 09:58:14 AM
I really could care less about the story. The first thing I did upon logging into the game for the first time in beta so many months ago was figure out how to turn on subtitles, so I could get through the dialog as quickly as possible. Voiceover has a place in games, MMOs is not one of them. 80-90% of my time in MMOs (hell, in most games nowadays) is spent in Mumble/Teamspeak.

Not that it being an MMO really matters, though, I skipped a majority of the voiceover stuff in Mass Effect 2 as well. Anytime a companion quest would advance I'd listen to that, and a few of the major storyline dialogs, but most of it was 'read ahead, press spacebar'. I'm finding myself doing the same thing.

I think the game BARELY has enough gameplay to support itself for a launch. I'm interested to see what they do post-launch.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 10:03:15 AM
So I was randomly looking at some item lists.

Practically everything has bind on equip/pickup. Firstly, when do designers intend to get tired of this less-than-worthless mechanic? Secondly, surely it can't be on every damn thing - Darthhater's database has literally nothing without bind on whatever?

They will never, never get tired of it. I'm afraid it's here to stay in multiplayer games. If anything I expect it to expand even further as the cash shop mechanics creep into the greater MMOspace.   

The best you can hope for is bind to account instead of bind on equip.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 30, 2011, 10:08:41 AM
I really could care less about the story. The first thing I did upon logging into the game for the first time in beta so many months ago was figure out how to turn on subtitles, so I could get through the dialog as quickly as possible. Voiceover has a place in games, MMOs is not one of them. 80-90% of my time in MMOs (hell, in most games nowadays) is spent in Mumble/Teamspeak.

Not that it being an MMO really matters, though, I skipped a majority of the voiceover stuff in Mass Effect 2 as well. Anytime a companion quest would advance I'd listen to that, and a few of the major storyline dialogs, but most of it was 'read ahead, press spacebar'. I'm finding myself doing the same thing.

I think the game BARELY has enough gameplay to support itself for a launch. I'm interested to see what they do post-launch.

So you are playing this game.. why?  You do not care about story, you do not want VA.  A good portion of the fun in the game is reactions to the various developments.  If you skip all of that then of course the game is going to be generic and boring.  Maybe that is your style, and that is fine, but it is not the fault of this game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on November 30, 2011, 10:25:46 AM
I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?

Right, and here's the thing - I see the 'cheap quality' of some of the gameplay systems and... don't really care. It isn't totally annoying for me. I know that I'm going to get more than 2 months of fun out of this game. How much more? Well, that depends on what happens post release.

That's what I'm trying to get at - not that these flaws don't exist, they clearly do. But that the divide on like/don't like for this game is whether for you as an individual the (subjective) good disguises the bad enough. You're seeing puppet strings all the time, whereas I only see them if I look for them. My wife likes General Hospital for fuck's sake - I just see bad acting, terrible plotlines and flimsy scenery. I can't help it. If they can keep the content flowing, SWTOR may be a good (bad) soap opera.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 10:29:35 AM
I really could care less about the story.

Then that's your answer. Don't bother going any further with your interest in this game. If you don't care about story, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 10:32:02 AM
I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?

Right, and here's the thing - I see the 'cheap quality' of some of the gameplay systems and... don't really care.

What specifically are you talking about in "cheap quality?" If this is a graphics issue, I'll tell anyone to go fuck themselves on that right now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: VainEldritch on November 30, 2011, 10:33:00 AM
I really could care less about the story.

Then that's your answer. Don't bother going any further with your interest in this game. If you don't care about story, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200.

Isn't the correct declamation: I really couldn't care less about the story?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 10:33:29 AM
Quality is the light saber poking through my leku.

Wait.  What game ever solved this kind of clipping?   I see the kind of clipping in Skyrim and everyone is going gaga for the graphics quality of that game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 30, 2011, 10:35:27 AM
Meh. This game mezz'd me enough with the awe and fun in two beta weekends to get my money till I get tired of it. How long that'll be, not even I can tell - considering I like alts and playing different factions. Given those things, I can see getting 6 months out of this game, no problem at all. My Warcraft fuzzy comforter blanket was so stained and torn that it had to be thrown out and Warhammer, Aion, Rift, LotRO, blankets just didn't have the same feel or comfort level. Having slept with this SWTOR blanket, it has that old familiar feeling but without the wear and tear. Granted, it will have it soon enough... but for now, I'll enjoy the new.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 30, 2011, 10:36:28 AM
Interesting cycle you guys go through.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 30, 2011, 10:40:27 AM
So I received my early access code from Best Buy today after running their customer service quest chain. I registered on the SWTOR site and turned in the code.
When and how do I receive the exact date of my early access? Has anyone gotten this info yet?

By the way you wouldnt believe what you have to do in order to get your early access code from Best Buy.
Didnt get it in the promised email?
No.
Go to customer service desk in store.
Employees reply: "We all pre-ordered as well and havent received codes either, if you figure it out come tell us as well!"
Go home and call customer service number.
"Sorry we dont have any information on that."

Obscure solution? Go on Best Buy's forums and create an account. Use that account to send a PM to the Gaming community management team. Receive code back within 48 hours.
That has got to be the weirdest, most obscure/hidden, means of dealing with customers I have ever encountered.
But I got my code!  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 10:44:14 AM
From what I understand, early access times are staggered based on when you registered you pre-order code.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on November 30, 2011, 10:46:41 AM
From what I understand, early access times are staggered based on when you registered you pre-order code.

Yes but they have not released those dates just yet. That's the issue. We know they are staggered, and pretty sure those who ordered back during the summer are in on the 15th, but what about those ordering in the last 2 weeks or next 2 weeks?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: taolurker on November 30, 2011, 10:50:13 AM
See, I asked this a bunch of pages back, and will ask it again: 
For those of you playing at release or with lots of beta time -> What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to?


I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either. I like Bioware cut-scenes and stories just fine, and played through DA:O maybe 3-4 times from scratch, but I was done with that game before a full month was up. I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).

I also tend to agree with Falc about the cheap quality, and I'd say cheap more because they didn't include any innovations I'd expect from an MMO (like a functional UI or reasonably normal animations). I thought the game was fun, but not fun enough to make me want to pay full price, and definitely not to the point that they'd get an amount monthly from me.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 10:55:59 AM
Most likely I have one max level character tank that runs my guildmates through stuff, a ranged dpser that I'm slowly working on, and a low level healer that I keep promising myself I will get to max level ONE DAY™


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 10:58:48 AM
I expect to play for years, personally. Sure, maybe there is some lurking disaster, or maybe GW2 will be so good I can't not play it or something. But I doubt it. The companion thing is a huge, huge deal for me. I expect to spend endless hours gearing them up, etc.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 11:00:23 AM
I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).
Ok?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 11:00:28 AM
I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either.

If you like it then it's god damn cheap no matter how you look at it.   These days getting a good single player game that lasts more than ~15 hours is a victory.    I feel like Bioware is just flat out letting me rob them at this price.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 30, 2011, 11:00:48 AM
The thing about companions is tha... okay, I can't reply to Ingmar with THAT BIRD staring at me.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 30, 2011, 11:03:37 AM

I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either. I like Bioware cut-scenes and stories just fine, and played through DA:O maybe 3-4 times from scratch, but I was done with that game before a full month was up. I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).


This game has easily 2 times more content than DA:O. IF you dont want play full prices - up to you, I am sure it will drop in 3-6 months.I


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 11:06:10 AM
I still don't see much response in the way of cheap quality argument. The animations? I don't really see anything out of place there or static or wooden. I was pissed about the flying oil tank thing but I haven't seen any in beta.

The UI? That will be modded. That's like complaining that Skyrim is a bad game because the UI sucks.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 11:10:42 AM
So I received my early access code from Best Buy today after running their customer service quest chain. I registered on the SWTOR site and turned in the code.
When and how do I receive the exact date of my early access? Has anyone gotten this info yet?

By the way you wouldnt believe what you have to do in order to get your early access code from Best Buy.
Didnt get it in the promised email?
No.
Go to customer service desk in store.
Employees reply: "We all pre-ordered as well and havent received codes either, if you figure it out come tell us as well!"
Go home and call customer service number.
"Sorry we dont have any information on that."

Obscure solution? Go on Best Buy's forums and create an account. Use that account to send a PM to the Gaming community management team. Receive code back within 48 hours.
That has got to be the weirdest, most obscure/hidden, means of dealing with customers I have ever encountered.
But I got my code!  :grin:

They're probably not monitoring codes anymore after the initial rush.  When preorders opened a few months back I bought from BB as well and got my code within 24 hours.



See, I asked this a bunch of pages back, and will ask it again:  
For those of you playing at release or with lots of beta time -> What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to?


It's all about fun for me.  I'm enjoying the game and I'm tired of WoW's bullshit. Still love the game mechanics and world but the dev team has gotten on my last nerve and I'm done with them.  I had the same reaction with EQ when I finally split 9 months before WoW was available.  ( I filled the time with CoH and some shooters.)

None of the other MMOs appeal to me in terms of setting and gameplay and I like having at least one game to putter around in.   TOR: from what I saw in this past weekend's beta, keeps enough of WoW's gameplay to keep me interested.  Do I miss some of the convenience features? Yes.  We'll see if they add them in, I'm enough of a realist and have worked on enough projects myself to understand you can't shove EVERY feature in at release.  If they're able to keep adding, great.  If not I'll find someplace else to spend my cash.

You're questioning value, which is subjective to everyone.  You don't see the value in it.  Great, stop worrying about it or what other people think, ignore it and come back to check it out in a year or so if you find yourself wondering again.   You know what it is, you're not missing anything or being left out by not participating.

Using myself as an example; I've regretted buying many of the games other folks here go ga-ga over. TES is a great example of this.  I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.  I'm not getting sucked in by the same hype Skyrim is getting that those two had.   It's the same cycle.

On the other hand, Civ V is panned here.  I've had a lot of fun with it.  I think there's some weak points but over-all I like it as a direction to take the series (just fix the Gold is King problem) and want to see what will happen with it in terms of expansions.


As far as the "cheap quality" Hey, guess what, it's stylized just like WoW was.  You just don't like the style.  WoW has a lot of the same complaints.  Frankly I find the photo realistic trend of MW et al bullshit that caters to a much too-small portion of the population and feeding the graphics whore population has caused a lot of stagnation elsewhere for far too long.  Less is more.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
I really could care less about the story.

Then that's your answer. Don't bother going any further with your interest in this game. If you don't care about story, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200.

Isn't the correct declamation: I really couldn't care less about the story?

That would depend on whether it is possible to care less about story than the amount he does care about story.

As we know neither the minimum amount it is possible for him to care about story, nor the actual amount he cares about this story, we lack sufficient data.

Further research is required.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 11:12:36 AM
I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.

That was me too, but I do actually like Skyrim.  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 11:13:20 AM
I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.

That was me too, but I do actually like Skyrim.  :grin:

Ho Ho Ho


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 30, 2011, 11:13:57 AM
I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.

That was me too, but I do actually like Skyrim.  :grin:

Skyrim is the game I didn't think Bethesda actually had in them. I was watching it pre release going "pretty, but your games always suck at being games"

Actual game? Silly fun.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on November 30, 2011, 11:14:43 AM
Is it me, or do the people that are complaining about it not being worth the box fee/sub etc, seem to be looking for validation on why they don't like it?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on November 30, 2011, 11:15:37 AM
I see myself in two months with a max level Sith and a Jedi alt, running the heroics that are already in game, and one of the two raids already in game, having a blast with guildies like me that played WoW for several years and quit that game for reasons other than the game mechanics.

I'll get tired of it eventually, and it probably won't  hold me for six years like WoW did. But I'm going to play the crap out of it instead of pining for a game that doesn't exist.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:16:05 AM
Do you reckon we could reach page 100 by launch?

Seriously, page 13 took us 3 hours, 22 minutes and 17 seconds.

And the material we were working with was pretty poor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 30, 2011, 11:19:40 AM
Do you reckon we could reach page 100 by launch?

Seriously, page 13 took us 3 hours, 22 minutes and 17 seconds.

And the material we were working with was pretty poor.

I reckon the empire side will be full of teenagers and angsty pricks because _____  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on November 30, 2011, 11:24:57 AM
Is it me, or do the people that are complaining about it not being worth the box fee/sub etc, seem to be looking for validation on why they don't like it?

Basic TOR complaint:  TOR is boring and lacks innovation although people are playing WOW 7 years straight and doing the same shit they did 4 years ago with new paint which is apparently ok and worth $15 a month




Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: taolurker on November 30, 2011, 11:26:10 AM
You're questioning value, which is subjective to everyone.  You don't see the value in it.  Great, stop worrying about it or what other people think, ignore it and come back to check it out in a year or so if you find yourself wondering again.   You know what it is, you're not missing anything or being left out by not participating.
No, I'm not questioning subjective value. I flat out asked two very direct questions that no one is answering (except Montague who posted while I typed this). What do you see the game being in 2 months, and how much gameplay you see in it. Neither of those is me questioning value, only asking people what their opinion of stickiness is, and how much gameplay they expect to see (or are likely to see).

Edit to fix the part that was no longer true in italics


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:27:10 AM
Just be glad it isn't $16 a month. The howls of protest at exceeding the holy acceptable mmog price point would have broken the earth.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: TripleDES on November 30, 2011, 11:27:45 AM
Is it me, or do the people that are complaining about it not being worth the box fee/sub etc, seem to be looking for validation on why they don't like it?
What I get is essentially a single player game, with other people running around randomly, and requiring me to pay money to replay it (assuming you finish it within the free first month).

The game's good enough, ignoring the mob difficulty scaling that isn't fun for a "single player game" and close-range gaussian distribution of hostile mobs that makes travel annoying.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
You're questioning value, which is subjective to everyone.  You don't see the value in it.  Great, stop worrying about it or what other people think, ignore it and come back to check it out in a year or so if you find yourself wondering again.   You know what it is, you're not missing anything or being left out by not participating.
No, I'm not questioning subjective value. I flat out asked two very direct questions that no one is answering. What do you see the game being in 2 months, and how much gameplay you see in it. Neither of those is me questioning value, only asking people what their opinion of stickiness is, and how much gameplay they expect to see (or are likely to see).

Several people answered it. One max level dude, some alts, and raiding or grouping for fun. I see probably 20 hours of gameplay in it a week for myself for 4 months, at which point I expect they detail an update.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:29:46 AM
What do you see the game being in 2 months

how much gameplay you see in it.

I'm thinking it'll be a star wars themed massively multiplayer game based around diku mechanics and Bioware conversation wheels.

How much gameplay, I don't know, 29 maybe? Possibly 31 gameplay?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:31:44 AM
What is the SI unit of gameplay anyway?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on November 30, 2011, 11:35:25 AM
What do you see the game being in 2 months, and how much gameplay you see in it.

I suspect I'll have a max level tank which I'll have used to group with my wife on the way up, and be on my way to having a max level BH or Trooper for solo play, group PvP and general fun.

At some stage I'll run into a brick wall, probably when the raid endgame kicks in (I'm done with that) and the attraction in rolling alts has worn out. How long I stay will depend almost entirely on how much fun non-raid content there is for me once I hit level cap. I'm not seeing much in the way of sandboxy/social stuff, so it'll probably be down to quest/flashpoint content.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
Wait, I can consult this guy for an answer on longevity:

(https://webspace.utexas.edu/cokerwr/www/slides/magicians/kreskin.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 30, 2011, 11:45:27 AM
I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.

That was me too, but I do actually like Skyrim.  :grin:

No. Im going along  with Merusk on this one. The hype sucked me into Oblivion which I despised. Im not letting it happen again.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:49:57 AM
I honestly think the best approach when you find someone talking up an elder scrolls game is to immediately throw them into a furnace. That is the best and most proportionate way to minimise risk of anyone falling for it again.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: proudft on November 30, 2011, 12:08:37 PM
What is the SI unit of gameplay anyway?

I think it's the Meier.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Hawkbit on November 30, 2011, 12:11:17 PM
What is the SI unit of gameplay anyway?

I think it's the Meier.

Incorrect.  It is the Garriott.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 30, 2011, 12:13:46 PM
I thought it was the inverse Smedley.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sir Fodder on November 30, 2011, 12:14:28 PM
Like WoW, I choked on the character models. Didn't get very far at all before getting repelled, bums me out because there has got to be some neato game systems stuff in there, right? Seemed bland though, been there before. Really got a kick out of reading Ubiqs blog before this all got going...

Is there a name for that character art style? Looks vaguely neo-Disney/Crossbow, long fuggin thighs and clunky feet, bleh.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
Is it me, or do the people that are complaining about it not being worth the box fee/sub etc, seem to be looking for validation on why they don't like it?

No, not just you.  I was trying to talk around that point.


Where do I see the game in 2 months?   I don't care, all I care about is fun.  If I'm still having fun where do I see myself in the game in 2 months?  One maxed character and 2 or 3 others hanging in the low 20s. The only reason the maxed will be there is because the office closes for the week between x-mas and new years and I don't have to travel.   Is that enough gameplay for me?  Based on what I saw, yes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 30, 2011, 12:23:54 PM
Is there a name for that character art style? Looks vaguely neo-Disney/Crossbow, long fuggin thighs and clunky feet, bleh.

Clone Wars?  Isn't it modeled a somewhat after the cartoon series? I haven't really ever given a damn about MMO graphics.  The only ones that bothered me were EQ2 and even that didn't really keep me from playing (Diku fatigue did that).

I doubt I'll even be maxed in 2 months.  Unless I all of the sudden rage quit LoL, I figure I'll have to split time between the two.  I'm in no hurry.



SI unit would either be the McQuaid or Jacob.  I think the conversion is 1.5 McQuaids to 1 Jacobs.  The Koster is a 3 part graphical representation of fun smelling slightly of salted pork.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 12:45:35 PM
Is there a name for that character art style? Looks vaguely neo-Disney/Crossbow, long fuggin thighs and clunky feet, bleh.
I think the knees are sharp and the nails square, if you turn them up to max settings.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on November 30, 2011, 01:05:38 PM
I still don't see much response in the way of cheap quality argument.


Didn't want to add anything else, but since you are asking:

- UI is very bad in any possible way. I don't care if it will be modded, I am judging what I can see. I don't base my purchase on hopes of future patches or expansions. This is a huge deal as UI means not only where the menus are positioned or what they look like, it means minimap, quest trackers, LFG tools, icon styles, targetting, macro functions and lots of other minor things. It wouldn't be that bad if everything else were great (see Skyrim), but unfortunately...
- World is static and empty. Cantinas and spaceports just to make a couple of examples are pathetically uninspired. Games from 5 to 10 years ago could made more evocative or detailed interiors. This is not about graphics, it's about the gameworld feeling barren and totally cardboard. Also, despite the game having a good sound department, they didn't even use it to make the world sound more alive. With all the other players stuck in their (...) silent personal dialogues bubble the huge empty identical halls feel like an abandoned wax museum, that is until things become alive again due to your own cutscene. There's a dramatic separation between the warmth of the cutscenes and the cold of the normal world.
- The dungeon I've seen is equally unimpressive and dull. Looks like any other interior space, or hallway, or spaceport, or cantina. Dialogues save the day once again, but problem stands.
- And sure, graphics are definitely cheap-poor.
- The animations are mediocre.
- Speeders and the vehicles I've seen glide as bad as "cars" did in 2002 in Anarchy Online. So from what I've seen the mounts feel poorly attached.
- The mobs and the encounters are dumb and repetitive. The "3 at once" thing reeks of cheap MMORPG mechanic, and it's copy-pasted over every square inch of the all zones.
- Quests mechanics are too simple, mindblowingly old. A step back compared to what other dikus have been at least trying to do.
- Classes are too few, with very little room for customization.
- Aesthetical customization is equally poor and lacking.
- Races are too few, and too similar.
- Combat feels slow and unresponsive, not as "snappy" as WoW (2004) or Rift (2011). Probably due to a slower GCD, possibly due to not enough skills off the Global Cooldown,possibly something else, I don't care. There's no "oomph" whatsoever outside of missiles (they are admittedly cool).
- PvP is bad.



tl;dr

World, quests, UI, graphics, customization, combat and PvP are, in my opinion, of mediocre quality in SWTOR.



As for validation, do you really think that I post here HOPING that someone will agree with me, or some supporter will change his/her mind, to get validation point or earn f13 RMT credits? I tried the game, I bought the game, I still can be strongly critical towards the game. As per value, I said many times I think it's worth 60$, I don't think it should have a monthly fee. I can see some of the fun in it, and I see lots of suck in it. I am just surprised by the substantial lack of jadedness towards a game that I consider (see above).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 01:12:29 PM
That's because those who are jaded towards it wandered off after realizing that it wasn't for them and saying their piece.  You don't see Schild in here grousing about it, for instance.  Numtini has said a few things as she's tried to come to grips with WHY she doesn't quite like it, but the rest of you seem to be folks who have no other notion than to bitch that "it's not innovative and the graphix suk!."

It is what it is.  We've KNOWN what it was going to be for at least a year now.  It met those expectations for most of those interested in them.  If you were holding hopes for anything else I don't know what to tell you.  This was said many, many times in the 400+ page thread - it's going to be a WoW clone with no innovation and graphics that are easy on a computer that's mid to low-end for 2011.  surprise!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 01:15:01 PM
I don't mind the bitching now, particularly from people who've bought it. If they're still bitching in this forum 6 months after they stopped playing, that will be annoying.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on November 30, 2011, 01:16:24 PM
Hopefully they'll be bitching about GW2 by then.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 30, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
Guys.

GUYS.

The UI isn't that bad.

I can understand the complaining that it isn't customizable enough, but that it's bad? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a perfectly functional default UI.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 01:20:11 PM
Yeah, I don't find it inherently bad, just annoying that I can't move things to where I put them in every other game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on November 30, 2011, 01:20:46 PM
tl;dr

You've confused quality with your own personal tastes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 01:21:14 PM
Falc, I agree with you on the race limits and class limits. The UI is always modded and if you hate modding your UI, I don't really understand you as a computer game player in this day and age.

PvP will be bad, no question. It'S DIKU pvp. Nothing will save that.

I disagree with the world being barren. I've found them quite the opposite. They seem to be quite varied between barren or clustered and tight based on the planet type.

The animations, graphics, smoothing, etc? I just point to a game like Minecraft every time that argument gets brought up. Make it fun, and people will play in droves.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 01:21:53 PM
I don't mind the bitching now, particularly from people who've bought it. If they're still bitching in this forum 6 months after they stopped playing, that will be annoying.

HEY!  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 01:26:11 PM
2 hours 10 minutes for this page.

Not bad.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 01:55:11 PM
The UI is bad once you hit 40-50 and have an extra dozen 2 minute cooldown clicky abilities that you could/should use but never do because you don't have the god damn ROOM!


It's like every class gets to enjoy Shaman Totem Hell!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 02:05:51 PM
That is one of the thngs I am Unhappy about, yeah. I just ... why? Whyyyyyyyyy?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 30, 2011, 02:07:36 PM
The UI is bad once you hit 40-50 and have an extra dozen 2 minute cooldown clicky abilities that you could/should use but never do because you don't have the god damn ROOM!

According to previous F13 discussion on this topic apparently that just means you use customization as a crutch and aren't good enough at the game to handle it.  :why_so_serious:  "Back in the day" people had to play with bad UIs and they liked it so we should too.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on November 30, 2011, 02:09:59 PM
The UI is bad once you hit 40-50 and have an extra dozen 2 minute cooldown clicky abilities that you could/should use but never do because you don't have the god damn ROOM!

According to previous F13 discussion on this topic apparently that just means you use customization as a crutch and aren't good enough at the game to handle it.  :why_so_serious:

More like

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: AcidCat on November 30, 2011, 02:15:06 PM

- UI is very bad in any possible way. I don't care if it will be modded, I am judging what I can see. I don't base my purchase on hopes of future patches or expansions. This is a huge deal as UI means not only where the menus are positioned or what they look like, it means minimap, quest trackers, LFG tools, icon styles, targetting, macro functions and lots of other minor things. It wouldn't be that bad if everything else were great (see Skyrim), but unfortunately...
- World is static and empty. Cantinas and spaceports just to make a couple of examples are pathetically uninspired. Games from 5 to 10 years ago could made more evocative or detailed interiors. This is not about graphics, it's about the gameworld feeling barren and totally cardboard. Also, despite the game having a good sound department, they didn't even use it to make the world sound more alive. With all the other players stuck in their (...) silent personal dialogues bubble the huge empty identical halls feel like an abandoned wax museum, that is until things become alive again due to your own cutscene. There's a dramatic separation between the warmth of the cutscenes and the cold of the normal world.
- The dungeon I've seen is equally unimpressive and dull. Looks like any other interior space, or hallway, or spaceport, or cantina. Dialogues save the day once again, but problem stands.
- And sure, graphics are definitely cheap-poor.
- The animations are mediocre
- The mobs and the encounters are dumb and repetitive. The "3 at once" thing reeks of cheap MMORPG mechanic, and it's copy-pasted over every square inch of the all zones.
- Quests mechanics are too simple, mindblowingly old. A step back compared to what other dikus have been at least trying to do.
- Classes are too few, with very little room for customization.
- Aesthetical customization is equally poor and lacking.
- Races are too few, and too similar.


Well I for one am exactly on the same page with you on these points, these are all demonstrable and valid criticisms and not just "personal preferences."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 02:16:38 PM
No, almost every item on that list really is personal preference. *Especially* all the "not liking the graphics" type stuff.

Even the "too few choices" stuff is entirely personal preference.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
I find the "the world is empty and static!" odd, especially the complaint that it's not noisy enough. I jogged past plenty of NPCs having conversations amongst themselves that I cheerfully eavesdropped on. I certainly wouldn't want it much noisier, as it would go from "aw, neat" to "shut the fuck up, dayum."


I also like the graphics. Actively like them.  :heart:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 30, 2011, 02:19:33 PM
- Races are too few, and too similar.

I never really paid any attention to it, do the races have any differences besides just looking different?

- PvP is bad.

I'm surprised I don't see this complaint more often, it seems world PVP is going to be almost completely non-existant and the little Hutt-Ball I played got boring very quickly.  If I'm on a PVP server I want to be able to drop onto a lower level planet and start stalking and ganking people doing quests from the other faction.  The whole game is based on a war between the factions after all.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 02:22:27 PM
The only difference between races is look and a single "social" ability. My dude twi'lek could do a "cultural dance" in addition to his normal dance, exciting.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on November 30, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
- Races are too few, and too similar.

I never really paid any attention to it, do the races have any differences besides just looking different?

- PvP is bad.

I'm surprised I don't see this complaint more often, it seems world PVP is going to be almost completely non-existant and the little Hutt-Ball I played got boring very quickly.  If I'm on a PVP server I want to be able to drop onto a lower level planet and start stalking and ganking people doing quests from the other faction.  The whole game is based on a war between the factions after all.

There are plenty of other games you can be a griefing asshole in , just FYI


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 30, 2011, 02:28:56 PM

- PvP is bad.

I'm surprised I don't see this complaint more often, it seems world PVP is going to be almost completely non-existant and the little Hutt-Ball I played got boring very quickly. If I'm on a PVP server I want to be able to drop onto a lower level planet and start stalking and ganking people doing quests from the other faction.  The whole game is based on a war between the factions after all.

There are plenty of other games you can be a griefing asshole in , just FYI

PvP Server.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 02:32:19 PM
You won't deal with World PvP till 35+ ish, probably more like 40 ish when both factions end up on the same planets at the same time in the same areas.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on November 30, 2011, 02:33:34 PM
There are plenty of other games you can be a griefing asshole in , just FYI

It will be more fun in the current popular game full of people taking Star Wars and "in depth story" too seriously.  (Says the guy using a Star Wars forum name and picture.  :awesome_for_real:)

Oh, and -

PvP Server.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 30, 2011, 02:36:22 PM
The only difference between races is look and a single "social" ability. My dude twi'lek could do a "cultural dance" in addition to his normal dance, exciting.
Is it anything like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFabjc6mFk4 ?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 02:37:33 PM
I wish.  :heart:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 02:47:47 PM
Valid criticisms to me are SB.exe, or I'm falling through the world, or this quest takes me out to somewhere and doesn't finish, or the in game dialogue bugs out and crashes my game, or there's no support for this class questline after level 10, or this world is missing the basic elements like a mailbox, or my characters face doesn't change when he speaks, or I can't see my head when I go in this building.

Those to me are things that show the game isn't there. Those at this point would be signs the dev team is going to fail. That is legitimate criticism against a game.

"These graphics and UI aren't up to my standard, and this dungeon is dull." That's a YOU problem. Other people may not agree, but they would agree on the earlier points I listed.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: trias_e on November 30, 2011, 02:57:48 PM
Valid criticisms to me are SB.exe, or I'm falling through the world, or this quest takes me out to somewhere and doesn't finish, or the in game dialogue bugs out and crashes my game, or there's no support for this class questline after level 10, or this world is missing the basic elements like a mailbox, or my characters face doesn't change when he speaks, or I can't see my head when I go in this building.

Those to me are things that show the game isn't there. Those at this point would be signs the dev team is going to fail. That is legitimate criticism against a game.

"These graphics and UI aren't up to my standard, and this dungeon is dull." That's a YOU problem. Other people may not agree, but they would agree on the earlier points I listed.

Really? You're claiming that the only legitimate complaints one can have about a game are regarding technical problems?  That's just absurd.  I understand that the most objective criticisms are regarding technical issues, but that doesn't mean other criticisms are inherently 'YOU problems'. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on November 30, 2011, 03:00:20 PM
I don't get the whole species thing.  There isn't enough?  What else do you want?  You have to start from the premise that each alien must be able to speak in a language you can understand, so that leaves out a lot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 03:00:32 PM
No, he's saying those are the ones that don't come down on some level to personal preference.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 03:03:02 PM
Quote
That is legitimate criticism against a game.

So basically you are saying that 99% of criticism of games is invalid.

Ok then.

Valid movie criticisms: this move cuts off halfway through!
Invalid movie criticisms: anything else you could possible say about a movie.

This is not the first time that someone has pegged an opinion of the game as somehow "invalid." It's like you guys decided 6-months ago that that would be the go-to response.

Do you really believe that graphics and UI complaints are not "legitimate criticism" or is that just the Star Wars super defense mechanism kicking in? Because it seems just absurd to claim that extremely common criticisms that everyone makes all the time are somehow magically invalid when applied to a Star Wars game.

GRAPHICS criticisms of games are not legitimate...really now? Let's get real, nobody honestly believes this. Nobody.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: trias_e on November 30, 2011, 03:03:46 PM
If you have a requirement that nothing you complain about has anything to do with personal preference, all game reviews and criticism becomes moot.

Not enjoying sitting in a camp for 8 hours in EQ is a personal preference.  Sitting in a camp for 8 hours is also bad design.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on November 30, 2011, 03:03:56 PM
I don't get the whole species thing.  There isn't enough?  What else do you want?  You have to start from the premise that each alien must be able to speak in a language you can understand, so that leaves out a lot.

I want my Wookie with a bowcaster, dammit.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 03:05:31 PM
No, he's saying those are the ones that don't come down on some level to personal preference.

That's not actually what he said. Everyone can read his post and see that he was contrasting "legitimate" criticisms to subjective ones.

Sure, a lot of criticism is subjective, but that doesn't make it INVALID.

Claiming that graphics and animations complaints about a video game are invalid is like an attempt at humor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 03:08:59 PM
I'm perhaps giving him the benefit of the doubt on how strongly he meant 'valid'.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 03:10:27 PM
Sitting in a camp for 8 hours is also bad design.

But there are people on this forum who have argued, quite seriously, that they would rather do that. So for them it isn't bad design. It creates social bonds blah blah blah.

You and I may think they're crazy, but it is still ultimately a subjective issue.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on November 30, 2011, 03:11:46 PM
Do you really believe that graphics and UI complaints are not "legitimate criticism" or is that just the Star Wars super defense mechanism kicking in?

I like the way you automatically jump in with the "Star Wars" fanboi straw-man again. Well done. It's been a while since you've done that.

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 03:12:01 PM
"Valid" and "subjective" are two different words.

More on this story as it develops!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on November 30, 2011, 03:13:19 PM
Why are we doing this?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on November 30, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
The UI is bad once you hit 40-50 and have an extra dozen 2 minute cooldown clicky abilities that you could/should use but never do because you don't have the god damn ROOM!


It's like every class gets to enjoy Shaman Totem Hell!

well you know you can enable side bars and bottom bars? Albeit with the amount of reactive and proc abilites some macro system would be very needed

And graphics is bad mainly because of really low res texture and no AA

PvP is terribad  - very laggy, shit tons of cc, horribad maps. DIKU. IN short - VERY BAD (no surprises there)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on November 30, 2011, 03:13:48 PM
GRAPHICS criticisms of games are not legitimate...really now? Let's get real, nobody honestly believes this. Nobody.

I don't know, I keep getting told my opinion is wrong because I prefer stylized to realistic.

Here's the thing, and graphics complaints are a good example for this. Unless something looks like Minecraft, which I would think no one would argue has stunning graphics, often graphics complaints are 100% opinion based and just not a good place to definitively declare people should not be enjoying a game they are clearly enjoying. I like the style they went with in SWTOR, I find the enviroments varied and interesting to look at. But I know there are always going to be people who get all GRR SHITTY GRAPHICS because they don't like the style. And yeah, I'm going to dismiss that, because it's completely personal taste.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on November 30, 2011, 03:22:13 PM
"Valid" and "subjective" are two different words.

More on this story as it develops!

I think most of the people here who are excited for the game are perfectly ok with others not liking it.  The problem is that guys like Falc, AcidCat, and lamaros (who hasn't even played the game) seem to keep posting in utter disbelief that some people like what they don't.  That not everybody agrees with Falc that that the storyline is masking a crappy game underneath, or lamaros not understanding how people can possibly enjoy the story when there are other people around playing through the exact same story as well.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Reg on November 30, 2011, 03:27:04 PM
There's nothing wrong with criticizing the game. It only begins to irritate when it's accompanied by sneers at anyone that likes it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 03:29:03 PM
Also, Paelos is an accountant, not an English major or lawyer, precise use of the English language can't be assumed.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 03:31:08 PM
The UI is bad once you hit 40-50 and have an extra dozen 2 minute cooldown clicky abilities that you could/should use but never do because you don't have the god damn ROOM!


It's like every class gets to enjoy Shaman Totem Hell!

well you know you can enable side bars and bottom bars? Albeit with the amount of reactive and proc abilites some macro system would be very needed

Still isn't enough.

And the side bars are ass where they are to boot. If the two side bars could be rearranged to fill the space on either side of my 2 middle bars, I could probably live with how the UI is. A simple /macro system would be VERY keen too.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 30, 2011, 03:33:44 PM
I really wish there was a way to have different configurations. I don't use the same skills when grouping, soloing and pvping.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: El Gallo on November 30, 2011, 03:39:45 PM
I'm almost certain that exact thing would have been said about WoW when it came out and EQ was the standard.


I have been unbelievably bored at work today so.... from pre-release WoW threads that are 7 years old:

Thanks for that trip down memory lane.  I think my old vitriol stands the test of time.  I really love that I went out of my way to take a gratuitous potshot at SWG's HAM system.  Damn, I've been pretty awesome for a long time.   :heart:


As for SWTOR, the scripted individual stories are a very nice addition (I love Bioware stories, sue me).  The problem is that virtually every other aspect of the game is worse than WoW.  The UI is beyond terrible.  Control feels sluggish, I'm looking at the same mob model for hours on end, constant running back-and-forth during quest chains.  The "you slowly grow into your class role" ability distribution system is frustrating and the decision not to include something like dual-spec hard to comprehend.  And the overall production values just aren't up to snuff.

I preordered the collector's edition like a good nerd and will play though at least a couple classes.  But I was nothing but disappointed about the basic gameplay in the preview weekend.  The thing about WoW when it came out was that it did everything EQ did at least as well if not better, plus it offered something EQ didn't have: quest-based solo levelling.  TOR offers something WoW doesn't have (the scripted character stories) but doesn't match, much less exceed, WoW in other respects.

Take away the single-player story and the vroom-vroom lightsaber sound, and this game is much, much worse than Rift.  That's really unfortunate.  "WoW with Star Wars IP and Bioware stories" would be incredible, and I had some hope that we'd actually get it.  Instead, we get "WoW wannabe with Star Wars IP and Bioware stories."   :sad_panda: This time next year, I'll almost certainly be spending most of my time in pandaman land rather than a galaxy far, far away.   But, hey, Bioware will have taken me for at least $300 at that point, so who am I to complain about its choices.  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 03:46:44 PM
According to previous F13 discussion on this topic apparently that just means you use customization as a crutch and aren't good enough at the game to handle it.  :why_so_serious:  "Back in the day" people had to play with bad UIs and they liked it so we should too.

Customization and mods are two different things.

I think it's reasonable to say that a game should be playable without mods and should be designed to be played without mods, balanced at a difficulty level where mods are not considered, etc. However it's also reasonable to say that if a game has X abilities and you are supposed to use them all the UI should make it efficient to use all X of them.

In many games balancing what is available is part of the game design. Maybe you can only have Y weapons or Z abilities active at once and you have to decide what to make available based on your strategy. (For example in Guild Wars and FFXIV you have more abilities than slots for them, but that's not a UI limitation it's an intentional part of the game) But if they are all available and just a pain in the ass to use because of the UI that's bad UI. Customization could fix that but so could better UI design.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 04:12:09 PM
Well I for one am exactly on the same page with you on these points, these are all demonstrable and valid criticisms and not just "personal preferences."

For those wondering, my response was to this. I don't believe personal preferences are valid criticisms of a game in beta. I believe they are certainly valid in a game that is released and qualified by the fact that you understand they will be subjective and may only apply to yourself and/or a small group.

For me I when I think of a criticism, I think of something that is WRONG. And no, I don't believe in art or movie critiques.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on November 30, 2011, 04:13:55 PM
Perhaps a better choice of words would be "useful" instead of "valid".

EDIT: Or maybe "meaningful".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 04:15:11 PM
Probably but the word used was valid in the post I was referencing. Looking back, not the best choice of words, but it's a forum for games. We're not drafting a constitution.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 04:37:41 PM
The game is coming out in a month, for the most part this is the release game. Fixing the items on Falconeer's list would take months or years in some cases.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 04:49:11 PM
Textures and AA won't, though.   Word in the beta was they were just left turned off for beta.

Hating the style, though? That's so 2004 and - as Sofjn points out - ENTIRELY subjective.

The UI has issues, I don't think anyone's given them kudos for animations (I certainly haven't - and I hate rag doll physics, too, while we're on that topic.)



Hell, I missed Drag's dredging of quotes. That's fantastic. Numtini's is just.. eerie.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 04:50:22 PM
The game is coming out in a month, for the most part this is the release game. Fixing the items on Falconeer's list would take months or years in some cases.

I'll go with Ingmar's choice of words then. Exactly how is "I don't like the graphics," helpful? I mean unless you have some benchmark of what you are looking for exactly?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 04:54:51 PM
You can turn AA and other things back on by fiddling with .ini or whatever. It's turned off because it isn't stable on like half the systems playing the game though. Specifically the ATI half from what the forums tell me.

ATI and SWTOR Devs have both been working the midnight oil on this apparently though. So maybe they'll fix it in time.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on November 30, 2011, 04:56:22 PM
Wait, you're bitching about subjective arguments when your entire catalogue of posts for the past six months is subjective bitching about raiding culture and WoW's difficulty?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on November 30, 2011, 05:25:05 PM

I think you could construct an objective view that the graphics are pretty ordinary. Neither detailed and rich like a Skyrim character model nor highly stylised and criminally low-poly like the WoW models. These just look like plastic action figures with accessory packs. In this, but even more so for gameplay, SWTOR deserves criticism because this is a monstrous budget, big-name, AAA title that should be moving the genre forward and charting the next step after wow. Instead it focuses on extending the mechanisms of levelling without adding anything much that is useful within the MMO genre.

And WoW was a huge step up from EQ in its time. The idea of levelling by quests, the richness of the world (which even WoW somewhat lost as everything now is on rails) and the way raid content told a story and had mechanics of amazing depth. There was pretty much nothing in EQ that wasn't done dramatically better in WoW. And the competition was pretty much EQ2 anyway which was like EQ with all the fun taken out.

SWTOR might well be an entertaining game, but it's really a missed opportunity considering the immense amount of energy that has gone into its creation.

Other than that the interesting thing to watch is retention. That will be the measure of the MMO minus the story and hype.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on November 30, 2011, 05:27:06 PM
You can turn AA and other things back on by fiddling with .ini or whatever. It's turned off because it isn't stable on like half the systems playing the game though. Specifically the ATI half from what the forums tell me.

ATI and SWTOR Devs have both been working the midnight oil on this apparently though. So maybe they'll fix it in time.

Ive been playing with AA on for some time now and no problems with my NVidia GPU's.  ATI can DIAF :P


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 05:29:27 PM
I can't even turn on Shadows without my frame rate cratering this last build. The build before I was doing fine though, so fuck knows what changed. I don't pretend to understand the technical details of programming and graphics, just if I like the end result or not.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on November 30, 2011, 05:34:51 PM
I leave for a few hours and this thread turns into a debate over the word valid.

This is why you shouldn't make us wait two weeks between the beta and the head start, bioware!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on November 30, 2011, 05:41:04 PM
We're playing a meta-game where we are shaping the narrative that SWTOR is a good/terribad game.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 30, 2011, 05:47:58 PM
I think most of the people here who are excited for the game are perfectly ok with others not liking it.  The problem is that guys like Falc, AcidCat, and lamaros (who hasn't even played the game) seem to keep posting in utter disbelief that some people like what they don't.  That not everybody agrees with Falc that that the storyline is masking a crappy game underneath, or lamaros not understanding how people can possibly enjoy the story when there are other people around playing through the exact same story as well.

I've said it's not for me, I won't be playing it, and I'm fine with that. I've just asked some questions to try and understand the appeal to others. I haven't said that those people are wrong, or broken, or any such useless shit. Just different to me. That you throw criticisms at the people who ask questions about a game is absurd and offensive.

I haven't posted in any SWTOR thread much at all apart from yesterday and back when it was first announced, I have left all you who enjoy it to enjoying it. Don't be a dick.

(Also you are misrepresenting my questions).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 30, 2011, 06:00:50 PM
Why are we doing this?

To get to 500  pages and unlock the new raid zone of course.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on November 30, 2011, 06:05:13 PM
I dunno, I'd describe SWTOR as "stylized" really. Sort of like less cartoony versions of the CG movie characters.

(http://i.imgur.com/LUXMCl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/LUXMC)

Scenery is decent IMO, armor looks alright when not clownsuited.

(http://i.imgur.com/ImW9Ml.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ImW9M)

And for a bonus here's my gag fat, goony Jedi.

(http://i.imgur.com/qwFGol.jpg) (http://imgur.com/qwFGo)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on November 30, 2011, 06:13:21 PM
Why are we doing this?

To get to 500  pages and unlock the new raid zone of course.
On that note, the recently released SWTOR tie-in novel apparently sets up ground for appearance of Arthas Revan, and kinda screws the Exile in the process. :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on November 30, 2011, 06:13:30 PM
Heh.. fat Jedi reminds me of Hurley. He needs a scruff beard.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Reg on November 30, 2011, 06:15:08 PM
Yeah I just read Revan last week. It wasn't very good.  But I guess I at least know how he gets tied back in to current events in SWTOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on November 30, 2011, 06:15:31 PM
IMO what makes it look plastic-like is that everything has the same consistency. The skin on the face, the metal bits and the cloth all look to be made of the same material. It's almost as if the game doesn't support spec maps and/or the same shader is used for every poly on the character.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on November 30, 2011, 06:16:55 PM
Heh.. fat Jedi reminds me of Hurley. He needs a scruff beard.
I tried to make him as neckbeardy as possible.

I'm going to remake him, but I can't decide on a name. Either Lunchmeat or "Pizza". Pizza the Jedi sounds good.

IMO what makes it look plastic-like is that everything has the same consistency. The skin on the face, the metal bits and the cloth all look to be made of the same material. It's almost as if the game doesn't support spec maps and/or the same shader is used for every poly on the character.
Yeah. My guess is that it was done to make characters look like they fit in the environment regardless of graphic settings or the locales they design. Well, I hope there's some design principle behind it at least.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on November 30, 2011, 06:30:08 PM
I like the graphic style. But I think the implementation is kind of bad. The animations just look "off." And there's some glaring horrors--I mentioned it earlier but the entirely static view of the pseudo-"blockade runner" out the viewport in BT was just awful. It reminded me of the pretty awful original intro section of AO. Nothing moves. Until the cavalry comes and then nothing moves other than some laser bursts. It's like some kind of really bad Ed Wood movie or something.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 06:44:36 PM
Wait, you're bitching about subjective arguments when your entire catalogue of posts for the past six months is subjective bitching about raiding culture and WoW's difficulty?

Different game, but the bitching is about them changing their game from something wildly successful with an expansion that's generally agreed upon as a bad step backward/B-team effort. The reasoning is up for debate as usual and I have my theories.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 30, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
Wait, you're bitching about subjective arguments when your entire catalogue of posts for the past six months is subjective bitching about raiding culture and WoW's difficulty?

Different game, but the bitching is about them changing their game from something wildly successful with an expansion that's generally agreed upon as a bad step backward/B-team effort. The reasoning is up for debate as usual and I have my theories.

Looks like your glass house is actually a one way mirror; everyone can see in but you can't see out.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on November 30, 2011, 07:03:01 PM
Heh.. fat Jedi reminds me of Hurley. He needs a scruff beard.
I tried to make him as neckbeardy as possible.

I'm going to remake him, but I can't decide on a name. Either Lunchmeat or "Pizza". Pizza the Jedi sounds good.

IMO what makes it look plastic-like is that everything has the same consistency. The skin on the face, the metal bits and the cloth all look to be made of the same material. It's almost as if the game doesn't support spec maps and/or the same shader is used for every poly on the character.
Yeah. My guess is that it was done to make characters look like they fit in the environment regardless of graphic settings or the locales they design. Well, I hope there's some design principle behind it at least.


Have you considered Chumlee the Jedi?


(http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/pawn-stars-photos/chum-lee-sword-and-helmet.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on November 30, 2011, 07:03:19 PM
Looking at Fabricated's pics and thinking about WoW architecture, there are almost too many straight lines in the SWTOR architecture.  Don't know how to explain it, but it's like WoW buildings are trying to avoid having a straight edge.  SWTOR architecture is big and full of straight lines, but the atmospheric haze one would expect at such sizes is missing or wrong.  WoW buildings don't have to deal with that.  SWTOR buildings are in the uncanny valley.

Don't know how to explain it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: SnakeCharmer on November 30, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Having been in the beta and a different test group (Revanites) since January/February, if anyone has any questions about Sentinel / Marauder gameplay, I'll be happy to help.  It was pretty much what I played 70 percent of the time (the other 30 percent was DPS Guardian/Juggernut (totally stealing this 0101010101)).   The general perception is the class is terrible, but it's really far from the truth.  It's a difficult class to play well, but by no means impossible.  Think 'speed chess'.  Or if somebody wants to do class threads, have at it?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 07:14:32 PM
Make a new Thread, we an entire sub-forum to fill now!




Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: SnakeCharmer on November 30, 2011, 07:17:03 PM
One big class discussion hodge podge or class specific?2


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 07:17:16 PM
Looks like your glass house is actually a one way mirror; everyone can see in but you can't see out.

I still wonder why you are in a forum for a game you have declared you won't even try.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on November 30, 2011, 07:20:36 PM
One big class discussion hodge podge or class specific?2

I'd Break it down by the pairings Bioware use themselves.


Knight/Warrior
BH/Trooper
Smuggler/IA
Consular/Inquisitor


Then we can all play the "I know what my ability is called, but damned if I can remember what my mirrors ability is named!" game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on November 30, 2011, 07:22:35 PM
And WoW was a huge step up from EQ in its time. The idea of levelling by quests, the richness of the world (which even WoW somewhat lost as everything now is on rails) and the way raid content told a story and had mechanics of amazing depth. There was pretty much nothing in EQ that wasn't done dramatically better in WoW. And the competition was pretty much EQ2 anyway which was like EQ with all the fun taken out.

Remember when EQ2 launched and had graphics designed 'for the future', hardware that didn't exist in the consumer market yet. I'm not a huge fan of SWTOR's graphics, but at least they aren't going for the same awesome tech strategy that EQ2 went for :p


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on November 30, 2011, 07:32:17 PM
Didn't they do their shadows in software?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on November 30, 2011, 07:46:20 PM
Looks like your glass house is actually a one way mirror; everyone can see in but you can't see out.

I still wonder why you are in a forum for a game you have declared you won't even try.

Because I find games interesting and like talking about them. Apart from the last two days all I have done is read, not post. Why do you talk about WoW if you've given up on it?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on November 30, 2011, 07:53:41 PM
Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on November 30, 2011, 08:04:30 PM
IMO what makes it look plastic-like is that everything has the same consistency. The skin on the face, the metal bits and the cloth all look to be made of the same material. It's almost as if the game doesn't support spec maps and/or the same shader is used for every poly on the character.

It works for me because it's generally internally consistent. Lighting, unfortunately, is not consistent. My weapon casts light, but the huge glowing blue sign I'm standing next to doesn't register? :(

What I really *want* is to be able to play in a world that looks and moves like the TOR cinematic trailers and has character detail as in the trailers. I suspect it will get there in my lifetime, given how far we've come since 1999 EQ1. The use of haze and focus has added a much needed depth to environments. Now if we can get to the level of skin and hair detail -- even as nice as in the original WoW cinematic -- that would be sweet indeed.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on November 30, 2011, 11:32:50 PM
Remember when EQ2 launched and had graphics designed 'for the future', hardware that didn't exist in the consumer market yet. I'm not a huge fan of SWTOR's graphics, but at least they aren't going for the same awesome tech strategy that EQ2 went for :p

Yes, I remember that well. And the game design was all about limiting the game-play to improve balance and in the process managed to drain all the fun out of it. EQ2, and the EQ1 expansions at the time, were the very best advertisement for WoW.

With the long development cycle, and need for a broad acceptance amongst more than just hard core gamers, keeping the graphics demands under control makes good sense. And I guess the need to support crowds wearing a huge pool of possible gear cuts down on how complex the textures can be.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on November 30, 2011, 11:58:28 PM
From what I've seen, mediocre animation is bothering me more than the models.

EQ2 had really good animation, and that pretty much got me past the terrible plastic models in that game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on December 01, 2011, 12:01:59 AM
You can say what you want about EQ2, but they did interior locations like no one else in MMOs, and their cities were totally alive. While the graphics in general were a mess, terrible performance and horrible characters, the world felt so alive. Qeynos felt a lot like Whiterun in Skyrim (at the time to be fair I compared that to Morrowind), and the level of details inside every house and building was insane (in fact, I still think they have the best house editor ever made). Same for some dungeons. Remember Nektropos Castle? That of course got lost over the expansions, since it certainly required lots of money and time. Like the voiceovers.

So, not sure how all that impacted performances, probably a lot, but it was 2004. 7 years later (and to clarify, this is absolutely not a jab just to SWTOR) wouldn't be bad to expect something on par with that.


EDIT: cause you should never type first thing in the morning before washing your face.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 01, 2011, 12:41:12 AM
I will agree with Falc about EQ2's interiors.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 05:52:30 AM
Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.

So you don't like subjective arguments or critiques but WoW is so objectively awful that you're heading back soon.

Here's the thing: I don't give two damns about WoW. I think it's awful for a variety of reasons, and this is after I spent more time in it at a higher level than probably most of the people posting here. But you don't get to spend six months making spittle-flecked, borderline ranting arguments about what you hate about WoW or what you think is driving sub losses or how much you hate raiders, etc, etc, etc, etc and then dump on someone's arguments about fucking GRAPHICS of all things because it's subjective.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 01, 2011, 06:17:24 AM
Because I like to argue with Rokal. And because I'll probably resub to the stupid Panda thing when all my friends do.
Here's the thing: I don't give two damns about WoW. I think it's awful for a variety of reasons, and this is after I spent more time in it at a higher level than probably most of the people posting here. But you don't get to spend six months making spittle-flecked, borderline ranting arguments about what you hate about WoW or what you think is driving sub losses or how much you hate raiders, etc, etc, etc, etc and then dump on someone's arguments about fucking GRAPHICS of all things because it's subjective.

Sure I can. Despite you trying to equate the two they are not the same thing. Then again, only two people seem to be hung up on this in the thread while the rest of the people want to move on, so I don't think we need to bother with my motivations about subjective arguments regarding a game that's not even released.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 06:46:33 AM
Well, it basically IS released, quite aside from the ridiculousness of your general stampede about WoW and raiding these past six months, which I'll let lie.

You've been around the block before. I'll play the release client in... three hours. I can guarantee it won't be substantially different. There's nothing magic going on here; they're a video game company. They work on the same time tables as everyone else. The notion that you can't comment on an MMO less than a month before release is ludicrous. It's finished. The best you'll see are a few optimization pushes and MAYBE anti-aliasing being turned on.

Also, I like the graphics a lot so that's not what's going on here.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 01, 2011, 07:05:14 AM
Ok so you like the graphics and you like the game, but you don't like my stance on WoW.

So, that's settled. Do you want to hug it out?  :heart:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 07:11:15 AM
I don't do hugs. I'm annoyed at your railing against subjective arguments after you've spent months borderline bullying anyone in the WoW forums who deviates from your subjective WoW is badwrongfun arguments. Hell, you even brought it in here during the weird MODS ARE FOR RAIDERS I HATE THEM AND RAIDERS thing, which confused even the mildest posters here enough to spur them to comment.

You're taking the wrong tack. The right one is "the graphics are fine because it's going to push boxes, shut up." The wrong one is "I don't DO subjective arguments and I don't like CRITIQUE, shut up." The latter is ridiculous.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 01, 2011, 07:19:53 AM
I am bullying you? On an internet forum?

I think you place my opinion too highly that it should bother you. I'm just one monkey with access to the internet and free time at work. When I have an opinion, I will back it up with numbers if I believe I am right.

You're trying to equate graphics (art) and subjective opinions thereof, with my opinions on a gaming system that was dramatically changed during an expansion and has since caused WoW a substantial amount of financial woe. These two things are not the same at all.

You sure you don't want to hug? They are free!

(http://freehugscampaign.org/images/freehug.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 01, 2011, 07:25:11 AM
Ok so you like the graphics and you like the game, but you don't like my stance on WoW.

So, that's settled. Do you want to hug it out?  :heart:

Worst.Troll.Ever


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 01, 2011, 07:29:39 AM
Well, it basically IS released, quite aside from the ridiculousness of your general stampede about WoW and raiding these past six months, which I'll let lie.

You've been around the block before. I'll play the release client in... three hours. I can guarantee it won't be substantially different. There's nothing magic going on here; they're a video game company. They work on the same time tables as everyone else. The notion that you can't comment on an MMO less than a month before release is ludicrous. It's finished. The best you'll see are a few optimization pushes and MAYBE anti-aliasing being turned on.

Less than three weeks before WoW's release, Blizzard finally added racial traits and Talents for Hunters and Paladins (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1458.0). Also they decided to announce a couple of new raids.

Plus ca change...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 07:31:59 AM
I'd be shocked if you see anything like that in the release candidate today.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 01, 2011, 07:35:55 AM

Less than three weeks before WoW's release, Blizzard finally added racial traits and Talents for Hunters and Paladins (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1458.0). Also they decided to announce a couple of new raids.

Plus ca change...

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 (http://i.imgur.com/S3aDV.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 07:40:01 AM
Do any of those new items make SWTOR a substantially different game? Different enough that comments the build prior to Tgiving build were completely invalidated? And do you think that today's build is liable to make the game substantially different, enough that any comments prior to today are invalidated?

They're not changing the classes or adding new zones or anything today. That's the kind of thing I mean.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: SnakeCharmer on December 01, 2011, 07:46:37 AM

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 (http://i.imgur.com/S3aDV.jpg)

With an eighteen hour cool down

 :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on December 01, 2011, 07:49:01 AM
Considering in my list of gripes itemization and travel times weren't issues, this patch while appreciated doesn't do much to me.

Also, for all of you who keep poking at me for mentioning graphics, hence apparently invalidating my own criticism, I want to point out that in said list of complaints graphics are just one out of twelve.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on December 01, 2011, 07:51:27 AM
Travel times become an issue.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 01, 2011, 07:53:18 AM
Oh, that's good to know.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 01, 2011, 09:06:54 AM

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 (http://i.imgur.com/S3aDV.jpg)

With an eighteen hour cool down

 :ye_gods:

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on December 01, 2011, 09:10:02 AM

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 (http://i.imgur.com/S3aDV.jpg)

With an eighteen hour cool down

 :ye_gods:

Glad they added this. If they want the Fleet to be the social hub then something like this is necessary. 18 hours though? That's fucking stupid.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on December 01, 2011, 09:15:44 AM

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.

Speaking of which, why the Hell is changing instances tied to your recall (or whatever it's called)? That pissed me off greatly the first time switching instances borked on me and I couldn't try again for half an hour.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 01, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
Yeah, I grouped with someone ( Random ), we both tried to switch, ending up in two separate instances again. /Disband HOWEVER! When you join a group, you get a popup asking if you want to switch instances, so there is that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 01, 2011, 09:26:58 AM

Its a nice to have option. We already have the recall or whatever its called every 30 min.

Speaking of which, why the Hell is changing instances tied to your recall (or whatever it's called)? That pissed me off greatly the first time switching instances borked on me and I couldn't try again for half an hour.

From the new patch...
Quote
Moving to a new planet instance no longer uses the players Quick Travel cooldown.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: TripleDES on December 01, 2011, 09:35:41 AM
Glad they added this. If they want the Fleet to be the social hub then something like this is necessary. 18 hours though? That's fucking stupid.
When I stopped, I was on Coruscant and had no fucking clue how to get back to the fleet. This would have helped.

Apparently I had to finish my story line, to get my ship, so that the game finally let me do shit at my own leisure and will. Not nice.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: palmer_eldritch on December 01, 2011, 09:42:30 AM
It's a diku mud based around doing quests and fighting. I think that's what everyone expected, but I was hoping STtOR with its mighty budget and IP might give us quests which were a bit more original and interesting than the average MMO, and do something a bit different with the combat (don't know what, just different). A shinier, better diku mud than we were used to. But the basic gameplay doesn't seem to innovate much, as far as I can see. Some of the combat animations are pretty cool.

The storylines and voice acting, however, are a step forward for MMOs. They are just better than anything that's come before imho. Note that I am drawing a distinction between the storyline, which basically involves talking to NPCs and viewing cutscenes, and the quests, by which I mean the tasks you actually carry out as a player (kill ten foozles). But obviously I know they are connected.

I like the graphical style. Cartoony but not too cartoony. It seemed to me that the graphics ought to look pretty good on any machine, old or new, but there was a lot of complaining in beta about low frame rates from some people. Maybe that's one of those issues that can be fixed before launch.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on December 01, 2011, 10:57:11 AM
So the new final pre-release build's playable. Immediately noticeable things: new borders around inventory icons, moddable items are highlighted some burnt orange color, missions now cost half the price they used to, there's still no anti-clown suit button, and speeder bikes cost twice as much.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 01, 2011, 11:03:41 AM
So the new final pre-release build's playable. Immediately noticeable things: new borders around inventory icons, moddable items are highlighted some burnt orange color, missions now cost half the price they used to, there's still no anti-clown suit button, and speeder bikes cost twice as much.

 :ye_gods:

For fuck sake why not? It was in before and it was a great idea.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 01, 2011, 11:03:54 AM
Patch notes

http://www.wp.torspace.com/?p=377


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Margalis on December 01, 2011, 11:14:37 AM
"Cartoony" graphics don't magically take less processing power than realistic graphics, in some cases they can take more.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 01, 2011, 11:29:45 AM
Here are the ones I thought were funny from the patch notes:

Quote
Companion Characters now vocalize less frequently during combat. - STFU Vette, I'm fighting here!
Battlelord Kreshan now drops loot - That had to be disappointing before
The final boss no longer continually respawns - Hilarious
A normal enemy NPC in this Flashpoint no longer drops boss loot. - Also hilarious
Nightmare Mode chests now contain loot. - Empty chests make me sad.
Bonethrasher no longer enters a state that causes him to cease executing his combat mechanics. - They gave him Xanex for his combat depression
Most Wanted: The weapon cache now provides a companion weapon. - Before they contained silly hats?
Character limitations will now display in the error message when players enter a name that is too long. - Fuck you Galahihixabalodianphiblrah!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 01, 2011, 11:41:48 AM
Just received a mail with the header:

"You have been selected to participate in the final STAR WARS: The Old Republic Beta Test"

Starting tomorrow at 1pm CST (8pm CET)

Nice surprise  :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

Here is the official statement:

Quote
Sent Dec. 1: Final Beta Testing Weekend Invites

This is our final test before launch! We have invited a smaller number of testers than in our previous Beta Testing Weekend to assist us in testing a new build of the game. If you participated in the last Beta Testing Weekend, check your e-mail to see if you've been invited. All you need to do is open the launcher and begin patching – you'll be able to play at the time stated in the e-mail you received.

Who was invited: Selected testers that participated in the previous Beta Testing Weekend

What was sent: Final Beta Testing Weekend invitations

Server locations: US East Coast, US West Cost, and EU servers

Invite status: We have begun to send invitations. Check your e-mail to see if you have been invited and for instructions!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 01, 2011, 11:47:58 AM
Either I'm very lucky, that 'smaller number of testers' really isn't that small.

Either way,  :woot: I'm in for one more run.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on December 01, 2011, 11:52:10 AM
Yeah, that was a nice a surprise - but considering I will probably be playing live in 2 weeks I don't think I'll be logging in and doing much.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 01, 2011, 11:56:33 AM
"Cartoony" graphics don't magically take less processing power than realistic graphics, in some cases they can take more.

I can guarantee you in player assets alone in AOC uses more overhead that SWTOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 01, 2011, 12:29:28 PM
Ultimately the 'cartoony'/stylized graphics can get away with a lower poly count etc. than 'realistic' and still look decent, since they don't really suffer from the uncanny valley problem. So while it may not mean lower processing power needed by definition, in practice that's almost always what it means.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wasted on December 01, 2011, 12:37:36 PM
Did anyone else an email saying basically they have locked your account until you change your password?  I did change my password last time they told me to, this is a bit ... worrying.

[edit] and now the reset password feature isn't working correctly.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 01, 2011, 12:38:26 PM
Did anyone else an email saying basically they have locked your account until you change your password?  I did change my password last time they told me to, this is a bit ... worrying.

The last time they told us, they were just telling us 'at some point in the future we will require you to change it' - now that point in the future is here.

You can change it to the same thing.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 01, 2011, 12:49:10 PM
I really wouldn't worry much about EA's shitty userID management processes, presumably they are using the same stuff that runs the bioware forums and DLC bullshit.

Expecting anything sensible from it is a path to anger, hate, and the dark side.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 01, 2011, 12:56:54 PM
I'll log onto the launcher tonight and see if it updates. I don't even pay attention to the emails or lack of emails anymore.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 01, 2011, 04:37:07 PM

Less than three weeks before WoW's release, Blizzard finally added racial traits and Talents for Hunters and Paladins (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=1458.0). Also they decided to announce a couple of new raids.

Plus ca change...

Apparently the new build that went out just after the Turkey Weekend Test has already introduced 1877 new items (all but 129 are item mods), 600 new crafting schematics, and this new ability:

 (http://i.imgur.com/S3aDV.jpg)

Thank fucking God, getting back to the Fleet was fucking annoying.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 01, 2011, 06:38:09 PM
No email, but my launcher patched up.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 02, 2011, 03:46:31 AM
Here are the ones I thought were funny from the patch notes:

Quote
Companion Characters now vocalize less frequently during combat. - STFU Vette, I'm fighting here!
Battlelord Kreshan now drops loot - That had to be disappointing before
The final boss no longer continually respawns - Hilarious
A normal enemy NPC in this Flashpoint no longer drops boss loot. - Also hilarious
Nightmare Mode chests now contain loot. - Empty chests make me sad.
Bonethrasher no longer enters a state that causes him to cease executing his combat mechanics. - They gave him Xanex for his combat depression
Most Wanted: The weapon cache now provides a companion weapon. - Before they contained silly hats?
Character limitations will now display in the error message when players enter a name that is too long. - Fuck you Galahihixabalodianphiblrah!
Well the companion vocalization thing is good, but did they fix the bug where you could hear other people's companions louder than anything regardless of where you are in a zone compared to them?

Questing and hearing this for like an hour is great:

"EAT LIGHTSABER, JERK!"
"EAT LIGHTSABER, JERK!"
"EAT LIGHTSABER, JERK!"
"EAT LIGHTSABER, JERK!"
"EAT LIGHTSABER, JERK!"

Also companions have literally the worst battle-cry things ever. Really? Eat lightsaber jerk?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 02, 2011, 04:34:46 AM
"Consume lightsaber, nerf-herder!"

Yeah, they didn't even try.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Cyrrex on December 02, 2011, 04:43:37 AM
Not having and HK 47 style assassin droid as a insult slinging companion seems like a missed opportunity.  I never, ever partake in RMT, but I would hop all over that shit.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on December 02, 2011, 05:01:51 AM
Not having and HK 47 style assassin droid as a insult slinging companion seems like a missed opportunity.  I never, ever partake in RMT, but I would hop all over that shit.

Well, there is, and this is a pretty large spoiler,  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: VainEldritch on December 02, 2011, 06:37:04 AM
Also companions have literally the worst battle-cry things ever. Really? Eat lightsaber jerk?

Some.

I rather like Khem's dry observations spouted while he gets beat upon by a crowd of angry mobs as I hide behind a pillar.

"death calls to me" = I'm getting pwnt here, help plox?

"heal me little Sith" = I'm about to die and when I do guess where this elite mob is going?

Besides, Khem's alien dialect is far more agreeable than Vet's grating whine. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 02, 2011, 06:40:51 AM
At least I can shock Vette.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 02, 2011, 06:51:02 AM
At least I can shock Vette.

Or, if Pure Blood, slap some sense into her.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 02, 2011, 07:05:59 AM
At least I can shock Vette.

You can also have sex with other NPC's and make Vette watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7pgk7TZO_c). 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 02, 2011, 07:08:01 AM
Not having and HK 47 style assassin droid as a insult slinging companion seems like a missed opportunity.  I never, ever partake in RMT, but I would hop all over that shit.

Well, there is, and this is a pretty large spoiler,  

The location is spoilered in the Assassin/Shadow guide linked in this forum I think.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: SnakeCharmer on December 02, 2011, 07:10:27 AM
At least I can shock Vette.

You can do alot more with her than that.  Not going to spoil it but when it happened I was all like:
:oh_i_see:
:grin:
:ye_gods:

And Evilrider spoiled it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 02, 2011, 07:52:38 AM
At least I can shock Vette.

You can also have sex with other NPC's and make Vette watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7pgk7TZO_c). 

those textures are seriously terrible.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 02, 2011, 07:54:17 AM
Also, that's not a sex scene.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 02, 2011, 08:17:16 AM
No, but it IS hilarious.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 02, 2011, 08:37:35 AM
It's kind of hilarious and kind of amazing. Amazing in the sense that I can't believe anyone can take this seriously.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: schild on December 02, 2011, 08:39:09 AM
Also companions have literally the worst battle-cry things ever. Really? Eat lightsaber jerk?

Some.

I rather like Khem's dry observations spouted while he gets beat upon by a crowd of angry mobs as I hide behind a pillar.

"death calls to me" = I'm getting pwnt here, help plox?

"heal me little Sith" = I'm about to die and when I do guess where this elite mob is going?

Besides, Khem's alien dialect is far more agreeable than Vet's grating whine. 
Contract writers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on December 02, 2011, 09:28:34 AM
When are they going to tell us what day we start on if we preordered?  I'm trying to plan my Christmas vacation time.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 02, 2011, 09:31:08 AM
When are they going to tell us what day we start on if we preordered?  I'm trying to plan my Christmas vacation time.

I think next week.  I haven't been worried personally, I pre-ordered within the first 2 hours.  I'd assume if you did it in the first month you are probably good for the 15th and if you did it within the last month probably the 19th.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 02, 2011, 10:50:51 AM
"Play" button now available for those who can access the beta :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 02, 2011, 11:08:49 AM
"Play" button now available for those who can access the beta :)

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 02, 2011, 11:10:31 AM
"Play" button now available for those who can access the beta :)

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

I thought I was fine by not being in this weekend, but I find myself wanting to play badly. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 02, 2011, 11:36:00 AM
Yeah, I hate this game. I wasn't going to play LAST weekend and ended up getting to 18th level.

Figure I can catch up on Skyrim and the last bit of winterizing the house this weekend and STILL bummed I'm not in the beta.

Damn you, TOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 02, 2011, 01:24:37 PM
The game? Runs as smooth as silk.

The official website? A bugged out unfathomable shit-pile.

Been trying to reset my password (at their insistance) for the last 3 days. Today, I actually got an email allowing me to use the password reset page. Only now, when I try to reset my password, it sits there bibbling for about 2 minutes then tells me my passwords must match. Because inexplicably, somewhere during the process, it adds a whole bunch of characters to the 'confirm new password' input.

I just want to preorder the fucking game!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 02, 2011, 02:01:51 PM
Try using IE to reset your password.  It wouldn't work with Firefox for me for some reason.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 02, 2011, 02:02:21 PM
Yeah Chrome was also choking on it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 02, 2011, 02:33:47 PM
I'm actually kinda bummed I didn't get in this weekend. Nevermind it'd be a bad idea since they'll likely wipe our characters.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 02, 2011, 03:41:38 PM
One of things I noticed in playing today was that when I alt-tab out and then back in, the game doesn't re-render the entire environment anymore.  That was at least in Full-screen windowed mode.  When I went true full screen and alt-tabbed, I was presented with the standard SWTOR "Loading" logo, and then the game snapped back in.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 02, 2011, 04:13:34 PM
Another thing: if you set the textures to "low" they actually look better than "high". Duh.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 02, 2011, 04:14:53 PM
The official website? A bugged out unfathomable shit-pile.

It's Drupal. That's all you need to know.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 02, 2011, 04:20:09 PM
Dialed back to 6 servers.  Wow, 600+ in queue. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 02, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
The official website? A bugged out unfathomable shit-pile.

It's Drupal. That's all you need to know.  :oh_i_see:

Methinks we'll get a new, "live" website before launch, anyway (and hopefully better)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 02, 2011, 05:05:31 PM
"Play" button now available for those who can access the beta :)

Can you look at the PvE vendors on the battle station and confirm that they removed some of the mod slots?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 02, 2011, 05:20:01 PM
Try using IE to reset your password.  It wouldn't work with Firefox for me for some reason.

Thanks for the tip. Hadn't used IE on this laptop since I got it (and that was to download Firefox). Worked like a charm.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 02, 2011, 05:42:40 PM
Mission prereqs on Datacrons  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on December 02, 2011, 06:21:00 PM
Mission prereqs on Datacrons  :uhrr:

 :facepalm:

Yes, let's implement immersion breaking limitations when none was needed. These devs are starting to piss me off and the game isn't even released yet.  :angryfist:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 02, 2011, 06:33:26 PM
I don't know what a datacron is


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mosesandstick on December 02, 2011, 06:41:28 PM
You spend 3 hours pretending SWTOR is a platformer and click on a shiny box to gain a small permanent buff to your stats.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on December 02, 2011, 06:51:19 PM
You spend 3 hours pretending SWTOR is a platformer and click on a shiny box to gain a small permanent buff to your stats have it tell you that you need diplomacy to do that.

What the heck is with these dumbass last minute changes? Seriously starting to look like WAR syndrome all over again.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 02, 2011, 07:04:29 PM
Thats not even a valid comparison.  They j just made it easier to level.  Dont be fuck stupid retarded.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on December 02, 2011, 07:09:59 PM
Sure it's an exaggeration, but I've seen a trickle of annoying decisions which seem to do little but limit choices, customisation options etc without offering anything of value. I just read that you can no longer toggle off darkside corruption effects on your character also (which I've not been able to check for myself, but it will annoy the wife if it is the case).

But hey, easier to level. Ok.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 02, 2011, 07:38:52 PM
I just read that you can no longer toggle off darkside corruption effects on your character also (which I've not been able to check for myself, but it will annoy the wife if it is the case).

Not that I plan to be anything but the lightest of the light, but if that's the case, that is Goddamn Dumb. I mean, I guess if I have to have stupid just-before-release decisions, I prefer the ones that are cosmetic to a huge "suddenly it takes 20% more XP to level, and we didn't test if that sucks or not AT ALL" sort of change, but jeez.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on December 02, 2011, 08:00:14 PM
Yeah - as I said, I haven't been able to confirm for myself.

So far I like this game quite a lot. The pace of the leveling has been good, the content is adequate, the voice acting pretty good, the mechanics are good enough (for me), and I *really* like the look, feel and story-lines (Starwars!).

What is provoking an undeniably visceral reaction in me are the little plinks at some of the stuff on the edges. Character / equipment customisation, rewards for exploration etc. Things that I'd like to see built upon and improved, not whittled away to nothing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 02, 2011, 09:02:13 PM
Hello testers! This weekend’s test will end on 12/4 at 11:59pm CST (12/5 at 5:59 London, 6:59 Paris/Berlin). This will also mark the end of Game Testing for Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: MisterNoisy on December 02, 2011, 09:04:28 PM
What is provoking an undeniably visceral reaction in me are the little plinks at some of the stuff on the edges. Character / equipment customisation, rewards for exploration etc. Things that I'd like to see built upon and improved, not whittled away to nothing.

I have a feeling that you'll see that feature come back for the low low price of $9.99.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 02, 2011, 10:26:47 PM
Probably the worst change in terms of actual gameplay, is when they moved the Auction Houses off every planet but the capitals and the fleet stations. It killed the markets overnight, because no one is going to go through 3+ loading screens to list their shitty green drops while leveling.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 02, 2011, 10:28:46 PM
Yesssssss, getting back to the fleet is goddamn annoying.

IA just-got-their-ship spoiler:



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 03, 2011, 04:30:02 AM
I believe someone earlier was complaining about Khem not being customizable.  That was fixed with the recent patch:



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on December 03, 2011, 04:56:25 AM
Yeah, I have the red Khem.  All my companions have gotten cosmetic options around lvl 10.  He's a bit annoying though, always running around me and I click him instead of my target.

Server just went down for maint.  Guess I'll fire up Skyrim!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 03, 2011, 05:07:50 AM
(still experimenting with imgur...Anyways, once you get to the website, click on the pic for the full size)

(http://i.imgur.com/cAfM8s.jpg) (http://imgur.com/cAfM8)(http://i.imgur.com/rKaUDs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/rKaUD)(http://i.imgur.com/kDFsVs.jpg) (http://imgur.com/kDFsV)(http://i.imgur.com/WfhMls.jpg) (http://imgur.com/WfhMl)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 03, 2011, 07:06:25 AM
BWA is releasing mp3 tracks from the soundtrack on the facebook (I got them via a direct link from darth hater). The music is sooo good.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 03, 2011, 08:07:05 AM
BWA is releasing mp3 tracks from the soundtrack on the facebook (I got them via a direct link from darth hater). The music is sooo good.

One of the reasons I wanted the CE :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 03, 2011, 09:32:24 AM
Apparently these are additional tracks, not in the CE.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 03, 2011, 10:55:25 AM
Apparently these are additional tracks, not in the CE.

Yeah none of the tracks from the CE are being given out.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 03, 2011, 11:07:50 AM
Apparently these are additional tracks, not in the CE.

Yeah none of the tracks from the CE are being given out.

 :awesome_for_real:   You just keep telling yourself that


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 03, 2011, 12:35:41 PM
DH posted that guilds have been locked and everyone should be receiving final notification of where they've wound up in a few days and how to join your guild there.  Watch your inboxes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 03, 2011, 12:37:00 PM
Apparently these are additional tracks, not in the CE.

Yeah none of the tracks from the CE are being given out.

 :awesome_for_real:   You just keep telling yourself that

I could personally give a rats ass, I didn't order the CE. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 03, 2011, 12:51:37 PM
We already discussed potentially improper use of the phase 'I could' in this thread.

Are you telling us that you are in fact in possession of a rat's anus and are willing to pass custody of said organ onto another individual in celebration or commiseration of the observation that the facebook tracks are not being those included with the CE combined with the fact that you didn't order the CE?

Because if you instead meant that this news is not sufficiently interesting to convince you to give up the anus, then the grammar snake probably wants a word.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 03, 2011, 12:53:31 PM
We already discussed potentially improper use of the phase 'I could' in this thread.

Are you telling us that you are in fact in possession of a rat's anus and are willing to pass custody of said organ onto another individual in celebration or commiseration of the observation that the facebook tracks are not being those included with the CE combined with the fact that you didn't order the CE?

Because if you instead meant that this news is not sufficiently interesting to convince you to give up the anus, then the grammar snake probably wants a word.

My dog did actually catch a rat yesterday I'm sure I could dig in the garbage and get it for you if you want.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 03, 2011, 12:56:14 PM
What I want is beside the point, what matters here is your own level of motivation to distribute rat anii, and in particular whether the track listings have affected that motivation to any degree.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 03, 2011, 03:20:12 PM
It's times like these I wish I had a scanner at home.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 03, 2011, 06:48:31 PM
My wife just gave me a CE for my birthday. Anyone want a mice ass?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 03, 2011, 08:15:12 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/Sw8S8LrYxBI/AAAAAAAAcLs/nfhRs3RelMs/s1600/RatsAss.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: VainEldritch on December 05, 2011, 02:08:48 AM
I believe someone earlier was complaining about Khem not being customizable.  That was fixed with the recent patch:


Also, on Balmora in the Sobik canitina there is a Companion Customization vendor with several new options for Khem Val (and others).

I went for Khem Val Customization 10 - which puts the big guy in some pretty cool heavy armor so he actually looks like a tank and not some insane native muscle-man (though he still takes a dirt nap every fight  :oh_i_see: ).

Mind you, cost 10,000 credits which blows a pretty big hole in one's "My First Speeder" savings account (unless you have the CE JockSTAP).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on December 05, 2011, 03:29:33 AM
After playing the beta, I'm soooo glad I bought the version with the speeder bike.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 05, 2011, 04:12:20 AM
Yeah, I hadn't thought it was going to be that big a deal.  That they'd go the WoW route and make the skill expensive but the vehicle cheap. Surprise!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 05, 2011, 04:48:33 AM
has anyone even whined how ridicolously hard it is to buy that game in "red zoned" countries? You have to buy through proxies, vpns, friends in the white world, etc... 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Cyrrex on December 05, 2011, 04:57:13 AM
In Soviet Russia, game downloads you!

Someone surely complained about it in the thread already, but what is the deal with the blue/black color crystal?  Surely that cannot be the one we are getting in Live.  I had envisioned something that I could make change into any color in the spectrum, not this horrible thing that makes my lightsaber look exactly the same as the stupid practice saber.  Seriously, that isn't even a real lightsaber color. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Zetor on December 05, 2011, 05:20:49 AM
has anyone even whined how ridicolously hard it is to buy that game in "red zoned" countries? You have to buy through proxies, vpns, friends in the white world, etc...  
As a Hungarian, I'm pretty jaded about the whole thing. Back in 2004 you couldn't buy WOW-US or pay for a sub unless you had a US billing address for your credit card (!), so my guildmaster bought it for me and sent me the serial#; I downloaded the game 'somehow' (maybe I upgraded from the beta, I can't recall) and switched the CC info with mine. Ditto with BC. Thankfully they eased up after BC's release, but yeah. Amazingly enough, SWTOR is available in Hungary, and I was able to buy it through origin (that I won't actually need to touch since I can just upgrade the client from the beta version).

My personal peeve is with bethesda games btw. In Hungary/Poland/Slovakia/Czech Rep Cenega made a monopoly deal with Bethesda, so your options are
- buy a shitty localization through cenega (with a built-in 3+ month delay... I'm not exaggerating btw, the Lonesome Road DLC is still not available here)
- use VPN trickery and buy through steam / greenmangaming / etc
- import a physical copy (lol no)
- don't buy the games at all and torrent them instead or something
Gee, I wonder which of those options the average hungarian gamer will choose.  :oh_i_see:

edit: made the post a bit more palatable


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Maledict on December 05, 2011, 05:41:53 AM
In Soviet Russia, game downloads you!

Someone surely complained about it in the thread already, but what is the deal with the blue/black color crystal?  Surely that cannot be the one we are getting in Live.  I had envisioned something that I could make change into any color in the spectrum, not this horrible thing that makes my lightsaber look exactly the same as the stupid practice saber.  Seriously, that isn't even a real lightsaber color. 

Basically, just pretend the crystal doesn't exist. The colour suck and the stat bonus isn't worth using it even as a mad min-maxer - it's only endurance after all which is the least valuable stat. Even for tanks it's not worth it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 05, 2011, 06:13:06 AM
Blaster beams with that crystal aren't all that bad. But yeah, the saber looks silly.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 05, 2011, 06:14:56 AM
has anyone even whined how ridicolously hard it is to buy that game in "red zoned" countries? You have to buy through proxies, vpns, friends in the white world, etc...  
As a Hungarian, I'm pretty jaded about the whole thing. Back in 2004 you couldn't buy WOW-US or pay for a sub unless you had a US billing address for your credit card (!), so my guildmaster bought it for me and sent me the serial#; I downloaded the game 'somehow' (maybe I upgraded from the beta, I can't recall) and switched the CC info with mine. Ditto with BC. Thankfully they eased up after BC's release, but yeah. Amazingly enough, SWTOR is available in Hungary, and I was able to buy it through origin (that I won't actually need to touch since I can just upgrade the client from the beta version).

Well, WoW US is US, it's a different thing. I'm not saying they should forbid you to buy it, but SWTOR is actually launching in Europe. We're even in the fucking european union. Fuck the serbs and turks and whatever, EU reperesent right? Up top Hungary! Guys? Hey?  :cry2:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 05, 2011, 06:36:46 AM
So apparently Wal-Mart really did cancel every CE pre-order they had.  Couple questions...

- How is the person that will get fired over this going to get a new job?

- Who the fuck pre-orders shit from Wal-Mart?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 05, 2011, 06:43:12 AM
So apparently Wal-Mart really did cancel every CE pre-order they had.  Couple questions...

- How is the person that will get fired over this going to get a new job?

- Who the fuck pre-orders shit from Wal-Mart?

Wait, what?  I hadn't heard that one.. wow.

As for who pre-orders from Wal-Mart;  Move out of a city sometime, Wal-Mart will be the ONLY big-box store within an hour's drive.   I live within 10 mins of the ONLY Best Buy in Northern Kentucky.   Anyone south of me between Lexington and Cincinnati has to use that store or a Wal-Mart. (Of which there is only one I know of between here and Lexington)   That's a very, very large area and this is hardly the only state like that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 05, 2011, 06:50:30 AM
I really don't understand the logic of charging credits for companion customisation.

It is an inherently out of character process.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 05, 2011, 06:51:52 AM
You're buying them a make-over. (or a new paint job)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 05, 2011, 06:58:01 AM
Eh, it's a fine moneysink. I'd rather spend credits on that than other shit, really.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 05, 2011, 07:38:55 AM
Yay walmart wastelands. Hey, we have a gamestop, too. Both equally useless, steam or amazon are the only way to get games (well, and gog).

New swtor.com error is smirkable:



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on December 05, 2011, 07:55:23 AM
Yeah, I hadn't thought it was going to be that big a deal.  That they'd go the WoW route and make the skill expensive but the vehicle cheap. Surprise!

I didn't look too much at the skill and speeders, but I thought the skill was 40k and the Bike was 4k...? Did they change that?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 05, 2011, 08:02:12 AM
I think they doubled the cost of the speeder recently. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Dark_MadMax on December 05, 2011, 08:36:04 AM
Based on 2nd weekend experience I definitively gonna stay away from republic. Those incompetent sugary  morons ! I though some empire dark side options were over the top , but at least they were entertaining. Republic light side is all holier than thou bullshit. And its actually immersion breaking because your avatar of holiness slaughters innocent people by thousands ( like justicars). Empire is consistent and while evil can be caricaturic at times but still  fun. Yeah and Lord Zash >> Shatele


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 05, 2011, 08:38:28 AM
The more you know:  You get 25% of a group mate's xp reward when they turn in a quest.  Supposedly it makes up for the reduced kill xp.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on December 05, 2011, 08:51:31 AM
The more you know:  You get 25% of a group mate's xp reward when they turn in a quest.  Supposedly it makes up for the reduced kill xp.

And you get 50% of a group mate's xp when they complete an optional objective. For instance, in a heroic 4-man mission, my group could finish a stage of a bonus objective set that gives 2500 xp per person. Each person will get the 2500 from their own, and the 1250 from each party member.

This some times ends up being more XP than the final mission reward.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 05, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
They nerfed that from 50 to 25 I believe.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on December 05, 2011, 10:26:59 AM
Quote
Based on 2nd weekend experience I definitively gonna stay away from republic. Those incompetent sugary  morons ! I though some empire dark side options were over the top , but at least they were entertaining. Republic light side is all holier than thou bullshit. And its actually immersion breaking because your avatar of holiness slaughters innocent people by thousands ( like justicars). Empire is consistent and while evil can be caricaturic at times but still  fun. Yeah and Lord Zash

Yeah SWTOR taught me that it's ok to go out and slaughter primitive peoples and loot their corpses for my own benefit, as long as I do so without any emotion.

The non-jedi options are a little bit better as it does seem more plausible. With jedi but they're lumbered with the Galactic Gasbag's suppression of emotion idiocy that he came up with after dropping peyote with Joe Campbell. Add that to the "kill stuff and loot the bodies" mechanic of a DIKU and it really adds up to  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 05, 2011, 10:36:20 AM
Republic light side is all holier than thou bullshit.
They aren't hollier than thou, they're simply right :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 05, 2011, 11:43:32 AM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/05/star-wars-the-old-republic-beta-test-attracts-2-million-players/


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 05, 2011, 12:16:38 PM
Yeah, I hadn't thought it was going to be that big a deal.  That they'd go the WoW route and make the skill expensive but the vehicle cheap. Surprise!

The level 40 speeder skill is 200k.  Speeders at that level cost 25-55k.  Be sure you plan ahead! 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on December 05, 2011, 12:20:03 PM
Yeah, I hadn't thought it was going to be that big a deal.  That they'd go the WoW route and make the skill expensive but the vehicle cheap. Surprise!

The level 40 speeder skill is 200k.  Speeders at that level cost 25-55k.  Be sure you plan ahead!  

And unless things have changed dramatically, the speed increase is basically negligible. Last I saw, you only got a 10-20% increase in speed compared to the normal level 25 mount for, what? Five times the cost? You're basically paying an enormous premium to unlock the ability to ride a speeder whose biggest benefit is that it doesn't look like a lawn mower.

Epic riding this ain't.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 05, 2011, 12:25:39 PM
Correct.  90% for the first speeder set.  100% for the second.  Custom speeders (cybertech) did not give a performance boost either.  I never managed to get mine built so I cannot comment on them being interesting looking.  Perhaps the next tier custom rides are better. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 05, 2011, 12:36:24 PM
Quote
Thank you for your participation in the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ Game Testing Program. In preparation for the game's official release, if you are receiving this email, you must uninstall the game-testing client before installing the launch game client.
:oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on December 05, 2011, 12:41:57 PM
Quote
Thank you for your participation in the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ Game Testing Program. In preparation for the game's official release, if you are receiving this email, you must uninstall the game-testing client before installing the launch game client.
:oh_i_see:

They really need to work on the emails they send out...

Quote
We encourage anyone who has taken part in our Game Testing Program prior to the November 25th Beta Weekend to uninstall their previous client before installing the final Game Client

http://www.swtor.com/preorder/faq#uninstall


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 05, 2011, 12:43:20 PM
2 million testers. All need to re-download.  :drill:



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Montague on December 05, 2011, 01:06:18 PM
2 million testers. All need to re-download.  :drill:



It's as if terabytes of data suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 05, 2011, 01:16:44 PM
World PvP on Tatooine (if you can look past lag/framerate issues, that is :P) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkZmemH3sVM


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 05, 2011, 01:19:22 PM
Eh, it's a fine moneysink. I'd rather spend credits on that than other shit, really.

If it were just gear and hairstyles it would make sense, but if you are changing the colour and features of the person/creature it kind of needs to be available when you first meet them. Going around with Vette as a blue twilek for 10 levels, then paying 10k to dye her yellow and perform facial reconstruction just seems weird.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 05, 2011, 01:48:50 PM
You get the higher level speeders not because they are much faster, but because they prevent you from getting knocked off them better. They also look cooler, actual speeder bikes, not speeder segways!  :why_so_serious:



The Credit curve in the game is sort of strange. You start off fine, then around 25-35 or so, you just seem to be god damned broke all the time due to training and upgrades or whatever, then once you hit 50 you are literally wiping your ass with credits because all that quest XP gets converted into credits. That million dollar VIP pass seems INSANE when you first see it. At level 50? I made like 1.5 million credits just from finishing my quest lines on Corellia, and I still had like 3 planets worth of bonus series quests to do.

That's not touching space combat quests and the actual lvl 50 repeatable content quests on Illum.



Money will not be a problem.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 05, 2011, 01:49:36 PM
I'm sure I'll find a way to be broke.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 05, 2011, 02:09:41 PM
The life of a Jedi Manwhore isn't cheap.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 05, 2011, 02:37:09 PM
The life of a Jedi Manwhore isn't cheap.

It's hard out there for a pimp.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 05, 2011, 05:05:26 PM
I'm sure I'll find a way to be broke.
It'll be from buying new crystals for your gear every week.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 05, 2011, 05:06:55 PM
 :heartbreak:

That is like 75% of why I'm not playing WoW right now, the gems are too expensive in the post-patch flurry. Well, maybe 50%. (Skyrim)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 05, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
You can take your mods OUT of your gear!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 05, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
No, he can't!  He needs to save those creds to buy my crystals.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 05, 2011, 05:24:55 PM
I say you both should just get off the meth.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 05, 2011, 05:28:11 PM
I'm wondering why the UK standard edition digital download costs $10 more than the US one.
The UK digital deluxe version is another $13 on top of the US price.
The collector's edition doesn't even have a price yet in the UK.

I can't get anyone at a physical UK games store to quote me a price for the game, and Amazon is keeping silent also.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 05, 2011, 05:30:06 PM
Import tax on the Republic-side accents.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 05, 2011, 05:46:33 PM
I'm wondering why the UK standard edition digital download costs $10 more than the US one.


Fuck Britain tax?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 05, 2011, 06:03:01 PM
"If Valve can use the 1 USD = 1 Euro pricing, so can we" tax.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 05, 2011, 06:09:30 PM
I'm wondering why the UK standard edition digital download costs $10 more than the US one.


Fuck Britain tax?

It's a tax on tea. Just fucking because.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 05, 2011, 06:12:16 PM
It's just a little disappointing, overall. I mean, ok, I've made the decision to play the game. Perhaps we could forgoe bending me over a table and pulling my hair while whispering 'who's yer daddy' in my ear?
I know I'm not going to get any of the 5 day head-start early access time now so really I'd just like to not be ripped off for the straight-to-live experience.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 05, 2011, 06:29:09 PM
Fine.  We'll go with, "Who's your mum?" ;D


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 05, 2011, 06:32:38 PM
Fine.  We'll go with, "Who's your mum?" ;D


Squeal like a pig might be more appropriate


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 05, 2011, 07:16:04 PM
Perhaps we could forgoe bending me over a table and pulling my hair while whispering 'who's yer daddy' in my ear?
Don't worry, your game companions will make it all better.

(nsfw so spoilered. not really a swtor spoiler)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 06, 2011, 12:07:08 PM
I didn't know where to put this so here.

Glee redoes some of the Star Wars Christmas Special. (http://www.sfx.co.uk/2011/12/06/glee-to-resurrect-star-wars-christmas-special/)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on December 06, 2011, 07:08:23 PM
I don't care about romances or the optimum companion, I'm playing a BH so I have a jawa for a friend!  :yahoo:

It'll be glorious, we'll steal droids and re-sell them to ignorant moisture farmers.  UTINNI!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 06, 2011, 07:31:09 PM
A jawa with a rocket launcher...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Maledict on December 06, 2011, 11:18:29 PM
Did anyone ever get to the bottom of the graphics settings? I heard lots of rumours that the texture settings were actually reversed, but on the final weekend it didn't seem to make a different which setting I chose - either low or high, some of the textures looked *terrible*. Also the AA button had completely gone from the interface - is this planning on making a return?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on December 07, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
I'm wondering why the UK standard edition digital download costs $10 more than the US one.

It's a "not American" tax. Though that's no more ridiculous than the normal? Certainly a better price than the one being offered in Australia.

Quote
Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ is not available in your region

To maintain a high quality of service, only certain regions worldwide will be able to pre-order Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.

Maybe by the time it comes out the gloss will have faded and people will be over it. Can hope anyway. That's about as detailed as the web site is as well. Black text on white background and no information, how austere. I can't even find if they have a planned release date.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 07, 2011, 04:07:51 AM
Did anyone ever get to the bottom of the graphics settings? I heard lots of rumours that the texture settings were actually reversed, but on the final weekend it didn't seem to make a different which setting I chose - either low or high, some of the textures looked *terrible*. Also the AA button had completely gone from the interface - is this planning on making a return?
I didn't get the proper high-res textures to work for me in-game (didn't realise it could be done) but I saw a screenshot posted on the forums of what they looked like.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6600/39031009.png)

According to a later post by the same guy
Quote
Those are the maxed settings (with "High" textures, not the bugged "High" textures that most people had.) AA was not enabled at the time.

So hopefully the god-awful character textures will be gone next week :awesome_for_real:

Edit: un-spoilered


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 07, 2011, 04:14:27 AM
Oh wow.. that makes a huge difference, unlike the AA & bloom settings you see in the Tom's Hardware piece.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 07, 2011, 06:09:48 AM
 :ye_gods:  You should unspoiler that pic so nobody misses it.   I was actually ok with the textures but if that pic is for real I'm pretty damn happy.

Edit: I found another pic of evidence high res textures weren't in.  Spoilered since it's quite large.


I'm fairly sure it didn't look that good in game a few weeks ago.   That's from a scene on the third empire planet.   Amusingly one of those droids is voiced by C3-PO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 07, 2011, 06:25:28 AM
:ye_gods:  You should unspoiler that pic so nobody misses it.   I was actually ok with the textures but if that pic is for real I'm pretty damn happy.

Done. I just hope it's real and not some bizarre troll.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 07, 2011, 06:56:55 AM
For those of you worried about the anti-clown button not being in the "launch" build I found this tidbit by Stephen Reid:

Quote
Trying to take this one particular exchange and hold it up as evidence for some sort of general failure seems a little unfair, but that goes with the territory. So in case anyone else wants to quote me, let's get terminology straight:

A 'build' from our point of view is a major set of changes to the game, usually involving a decent size download for players.

Are you playing or downloading the launch build of the game right now? Yes, as we're not planning another major build before launch. That said, we're going to be pushing plenty of fixes and changes into the game before we actually hit launch day. With that in mind, our known issues aren't really our launch issues - they're just the ones we have today. On launch day, they'll be our launch day known issues, and we hope to have a lot less of them.

So apparently what got tested last weekend is 1.0 and there will probably be a 1.0.X on release day.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on December 07, 2011, 06:57:40 AM
That looks much better, the armor is worn, cloth isn't smooth and face has shadow and detail.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 07, 2011, 06:57:58 AM
I'm fairly sure it didn't look that good in game a few weeks ago.   That's from a scene on the third empire planet.   Amusingly one of those droids is voiced by C3-PO.
Anthony Daniels voices several NPC droids.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 07, 2011, 07:40:44 AM
Are those High textures going to be another 20G?  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mazakiel on December 07, 2011, 08:20:10 AM
That's what'll get the client up to it's full 45 petabyte install. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 07, 2011, 08:21:30 AM
It's probably only for these who pre-ordered the CE anyway :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: murdoc on December 07, 2011, 09:44:26 AM
I played the last weekend beta and there was a LOT of the graphics options that had been outright removed from the UI. I really hope that those high textures will be ready to go in a couple weeks, now that I have a PC that can utilize them.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 07, 2011, 10:35:34 AM
Is there any way to ramp up the texture-loading speed?  within the software that is?
Nothing more annoying than looking at a blurry mess and then "zing!" nicer textures. (especially in the cutscenes)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 07, 2011, 10:37:42 AM
Isn't that what the memory on the graphics card is for?  Pre-loading textures?  Or maybe it's just caching textures already used so when they're needed again they're already there?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 07, 2011, 10:38:20 AM
Put the game on a SSD?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 07, 2011, 10:40:58 AM
It's still limited to how much the gfx card can hold at once and that's 0.5-1 gb nowadays, with a chunk used by the geometry data and whatnot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 10:42:16 AM
Put the game on a SSD?

YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!   :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill:

Playing in the last weekend beta, I had just installed and setup a brand new SSD for boot and primary game purposes.  TOR ran like a fucking dream.  Can't wait for live to get the 'real' high-def textures.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 07, 2011, 10:44:24 AM
Put the game on a SSD?

YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!   :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill:

Playing in the last weekend beta, I had just installed and setup a brand new SSD for boot and primary game purposes.  TOR ran like a fucking dream.  Can't wait for live to get the 'real' high-def textures.

Until that day when the SSD no longer functions.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 10:46:56 AM
Put the game on a SSD?

YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!   :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill:

Playing in the last weekend beta, I had just installed and setup a brand new SSD for boot and primary game purposes.  TOR ran like a fucking dream.  Can't wait for live to get the 'real' high-def textures.

Until that day when the SSD no longer functions.  :why_so_serious:

Which with any luck won't be for a long time.  I played every trick in the book for ensuring the SSD has a long time to live, and only gets taxed when it actually needs to do something.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 07, 2011, 10:51:46 AM
Your PC is going to be a 5 year old piece of shit you can't run anything on before the SSD even starts to fail.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 07, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
Death to all rotating hard drives.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 07, 2011, 10:59:28 AM
And Avatars, you anti rotationist?  :awesome_for_real:

I am all for SSD, but the costs need to come down before they are a viable alternative.  $200 bucks for 128 GB?  Once prices normalize on HD's you will get at least 10x that capacity for less money.  Very hard to ignore that difference.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 07, 2011, 11:01:16 AM
Death to all rotating hard drives.
You're supposed to screw them into the case to prevent that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 07, 2011, 11:09:33 AM
And Avatars, you anti rotationist?  :awesome_for_real:

I am all for SSD, but the costs need to come down before they are a viable alternative.  $200 bucks for 128 GB?  Once prices normalize on HD's you will get at least 10x that capacity for less money.  Very hard to ignore that difference.

All my geeky friends who have deal with repairing pc's regulary HATE anything that moves within a PC. hard-drives, fans, etc... apperently these things love to fail.

And yes, until SSD are bit cheaper it's best to go with an SSD for the OS and games and a big slow HDD for data storage.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 11:10:24 AM
My (admittedly relatively limited) experience with them at work is that SSDs fail more often than HDDs still.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 07, 2011, 11:13:14 AM
It's probably only for these who pre-ordered the CE anyway :grin:
Or available later in a very reasonably priced DLC pack.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 07, 2011, 11:26:07 AM
And Avatars, you anti rotationist?  :awesome_for_real:

I am all for SSD, but the costs need to come down before they are a viable alternative.  $200 bucks for 128 GB?  Once prices normalize on HD's you will get at least 10x that capacity for less money.  Very hard to ignore that difference.

Who needs that much space, it's all on the cloud or network storage now, man!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 07, 2011, 11:32:02 AM
My (admittedly relatively limited) experience with them at work is that SSDs fail more often than HDDs still.

They do but the failure rate isn't high enough to be worth worrying about for non-commercial applications.

I am all for SSD, but the costs need to come down before they are a viable alternative.  $200 bucks for 128 GB?  Once prices normalize on HD's you will get at least 10x that capacity for less money.  Very hard to ignore that difference.

But yeah, this is a problem.

When I say death to all rotating hard drives, by 'death' I mean 'use a small SSD for the OS and a larger seagate hybrid for data storage'.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 11:37:04 AM
I am pretty sure Sjofn's amount of play will approximate datacenter levels of stress on hardware.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 11:38:22 AM
My 60GB SSD I bought over the turkey holiday cost me a $1 a gig.  A fair price to pay, IMO, for the ludicrous speed I have now.

The deals are out there, you just gotta get on top of it.  Especially now that classic hard drive prices are on the rise due to natural disasters overseas.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 07, 2011, 11:41:12 AM
I am pretty sure Sjofn's amount of play will approximate datacenter levels of stress on hardware.

Is it possible to run multiple clients and group with yourself on one machine?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 11:51:57 AM
Moving voice cast discussion over to this thread, here's the credits:


Apparently Steve Blum is *not* the male BH?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 11:54:13 AM
Blum is.  Maybe BW made a typo, or they were crediting a foreign-voice actor for a different localization.

https://twitter.com/#!/blumspew/status/144302297537720321


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on December 07, 2011, 12:01:09 PM
I thought the female BH was someone else as well.  Courtenay Taylor, who did Jack in ME2.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 12:02:01 PM
That one was just a rumor I believe.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Maledict on December 07, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
Haha, perfect. The guy who voices the oh so smug IA is called 'Bertie Carvel' and has starred in doctor who  and Sherlock Holmes.  Unless he's waving a crumpet whilst singing God Save The Queen he couldn't be more British.

I may have to take up stalking.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 07, 2011, 12:04:44 PM
Regarding the "Match Chest Colour" option:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=11909584#edit11909584

Quote
I wanted to let everyone know that we're very aware of the interest in this feature.

We've spoken with the development team and we'll have further comment on it soon - before the 10th, we hope.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 12:05:25 PM
Also the extremely fey Sith Inquisitor played Boy George in a stage production.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 12:06:43 PM
http://liberi-fatali.net/the-old-republic/star-wars-the-old-republic-guide-and-faq

For the lazy, that guide has IMDB links for all of the voice talents for the classes and companions.  Don't jump to the Voices section...find the class/character you want, link will be within.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 07, 2011, 12:14:49 PM
And after consulting some more Twitter feeds and the link I provided, let's clear up the Blum thing.

He 'is' in the game, as the voice of the SI companion Andronikos Revel.  Spackman does play the male BH, he just sounds surprisingly like Blum.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 07, 2011, 12:58:11 PM
Put the game on a SSD?

FML, I totally forgot about that portion of my rig expansion.  Guess I might as well take this opportunity to do it, although I dont plan on putting the O.S. on it.   Definitely a partition of virt. ram though.

Other than that, I guess I'll OC my geforce.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 07, 2011, 02:08:42 PM
Regarding the "Match Chest Colour" option:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=11909584#edit11909584

Quote
I wanted to let everyone know that we're very aware of the interest in this feature.

We've spoken with the development team and we'll have further comment on it soon - before the 10th, we hope.


Further comment? The only thing to say is "Yes it's back in and we are very sorry that we ever made you think we wouldn't put it in!"




Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 07, 2011, 02:20:43 PM
Why must you resist the Technicolor Dreamcoat?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 07, 2011, 02:39:15 PM
Fuck you guys who want matching outfits without EARNING it!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 07, 2011, 02:43:19 PM
Fuck you guys who want matching outfits without EARNING it!

No one's getting fucked if they're wearing those clowney mismatched outfits.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 07, 2011, 02:48:01 PM
Maybe by other clowns?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 07, 2011, 02:54:24 PM
Jedi fuck with their minds.   :rimshot:
It's either that, companions, droids, or a.r. holovids.  None of these require matching gear.

Space is lonely.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 07, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
I am pretty sure Sjofn's amount of play will approximate datacenter levels of stress on hardware.

Hmph.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 07, 2011, 02:58:14 PM
Fisto the robot travels back in time to serve inhabitants of another Galaxy?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 07, 2011, 05:23:21 PM
Also the extremely fey Sith Inquisitor played Boy George in a stage production.  :awesome_for_real:
Maledict may be in luck then!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 07, 2011, 06:09:43 PM
Fisto the robot travels back in time to serve inhabitants of another Galaxy?

I admit it, I tested him out...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on December 07, 2011, 06:31:02 PM
A Q for those who have better knowledge of MMO costs and the like: If the reported $300 million dev costs are true, just how many subs will they have to maintain to turn a profit with the first few years?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 07, 2011, 06:34:23 PM
Depends highly on how many box sales they get, especially sales through Origin where they get every cent.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 07, 2011, 07:05:57 PM
A Q for those who have better knowledge of MMO costs and the like: If the reported $300 million dev costs are true, just how many subs will they have to maintain to turn a profit with the first few years?

It's closer to 150 mil then 300.  300 is just people throwing bigger numbers around, like the 128TB beta download.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on December 07, 2011, 07:08:09 PM
A Q for those who have better knowledge of MMO costs and the like: If the reported $300 million dev costs are true, just how many subs will they have to maintain to turn a profit with the first few years?

It's closer to 150 mil then 300.  300 is just people throwing bigger numbers around, like the 128TB beta download.

What makes that 150mil number more legitimate? (I'm taking the 300mil from https://goblinworks.com/blog/)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 07, 2011, 07:13:07 PM
I'd click on that link but Firefox considers it an untrusted site.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on December 07, 2011, 08:13:35 PM

Hm, mine has no issues...

Quote
The ultimate expression of the theme park process is coming very soon in the form of Star Wars: The Old Republic, from EA/Bioware. I have been told by people I trust within the industry that this project's budget has exceeded $300 million. It is the Avatar of this generation of MMOs.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 07, 2011, 11:10:39 PM
Well yes, that looks like a trustworthy and reliable source.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on December 07, 2011, 11:21:14 PM
Well yes, that looks like a trustworthy and reliable source.

Former CMO of CCP says his contacts indicate $300 million. Unless you have a better source than 'random poster on f13' I'm going to go with the guy who worked in the industry.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 07, 2011, 11:32:40 PM
I still highly doubt it's that much.  Hearsay, especially from a competing company is suspect.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 07, 2011, 11:36:10 PM
How many people are given to actually know that number, anyway?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 07, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
Just to clarify the 150 mil I was quoting was from what Scott Jennings/Lum wrote in an article he did earlier this year. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 08, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
Well yes, that looks like a trustworthy and reliable source.

Former CMO of CCP says his contacts indicate $300 million. Unless you have a better source than 'random poster on f13' I'm going to go with the guy who worked in the industry.

So quick to presume sarcasm

It looks like a trustworthy and reliable source. In so far that a guy busy marketing his own new MMO can be considered trustworthy and reliable. He's in the industry; one of the companies he's affiliated with used to publish Star Wars Insider... there's lots of reasons to believe its an accurate figure. But he also might be talking out of his arse and just trying to over-egg things to make sure that the first blog about the development process of his new MMO gets noticed. What better way to do that than saying "Hey guys, a close industry friend of mine has told me what the budget is for a triple-A title that's being released next week."  He then goes on to expound on how Pathfinder will be a sandbox game, small and cheap and nothing like SWTOR.

Is he right? I have no idea. But he's in marketing and I don't trust that wholeheartedly.  It's his job to say "My product is the BEST EVAH! and so much better than our ridiculously overhyped and expensive competitors."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 08, 2011, 12:10:41 AM
On different note, does anyone know if the species selection is going to be relaxed come the game launch? Having this vague idea for a Miraluka IA with Sniper spec, but the info from the beta doesn't leave much hope for that happening :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 08, 2011, 12:27:41 AM
No idea.

On another different note (because I've just caught up with the cast list), Paul Darrow and Doug Bradley? Totally playing Imperial now.  :drill:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 08, 2011, 01:32:40 AM
On different note, does anyone know if the species selection is going to be relaxed come the game launch? Having this vague idea for a Miraluka IA with Sniper spec, but the info from the beta doesn't leave much hope for that happening :heartbreak:

Unless the Legacy system allows it, I doubt it.  Miraluka are supposed to be the Republic's equivalent to Sith Pureblood.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 08, 2011, 01:33:10 AM
I kinda doubt you'll see Race variety any time soon Tmp.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 08, 2011, 02:12:55 AM
Hmm that sucks a bit. The dev quotes in the threads i could dig up were along lines of "it's not that these limits are in stone but rather these are just combinations we have confirmed so far", so was hoping that's indeed subject to change. And there was the initially Sith Miraluka in KoTOR 2 so there was slim chance... ah, well.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2011, 03:41:55 AM
Yeah, but Vision was Sith because Darth Facemask killed her entire planet then said "hey, join me or die."


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 08, 2011, 07:41:18 AM
It's thanks to that KotOR character we're stuck with eyeless humans as a racial choice. Instead of, say, anything else.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 08, 2011, 07:46:14 AM
Miraluka at least have an interesting twist to them, and some racial identity.

What's up with the green guys?

And my personal peeve is the fucking darth mauls. Worst sith ever, but can't shake him. I liked jar jar better. For reals.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 08, 2011, 08:04:16 AM
It's thanks to that KotOR character we're stuck with eyeless humans as a racial choice. Instead of, say, anything else.

Kinda.

The first official Miraluka was Jerec in Jedi Knight. he was retconned to be a Miraluka long after the fact, but the idea of the blind force user went back as far as then.

Jesus, I'm a goddamn EU nerd.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 08, 2011, 08:12:21 AM
Zabrak and Twi'lek are supposed to be the most ubiquitous species in the galaxy after Humans, iirc.

The Mirialans (Green Guys) are completely new to me so I really can't say anything about them, though at least they have the grace to look slightly different to Humans.
I've argued in the past that Chiss are almost as underwhelming as the Miralukans but having read up a little on them now I can see them having a place in SWtOR's time-line beyond 'wahh nasty Sith squished a colony of ours!'

I love that Rattataki are playable almost as much as I hate that Asaaj Ventress has been retconned to not be one, inexplicably.

I don't see the fucking point in Cyborgs. At all.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 08, 2011, 08:15:55 AM
Yeah, but Vision was Sith because Darth Facemask killed her entire planet then said "hey, join me or die."
I'm perfectly fine with being given the same offer :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2011, 08:22:06 AM

I don't see the fucking point in Cyborgs. At all.

Mario-Luigi
Ryu-Ken
Bubble-Bobble

Palette swapping has been the lazy man's answer to content since games began.  Truthfully beyond cyborgs, a lot of the races feel that way to me.  The game definitely looks fun, especially with those HD textures and not looking like ass anymore but races are probably one of the weaker points in a game supposedly filled with hundreds of different species.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 08, 2011, 08:37:23 AM
The Mirialans (Green Guys) are completely new to me so I really can't say anything about them, though at least they have the grace to look slightly different to Humans.
Bariss Ofee from the prequels and Clone Wars.  Lady with the tattoos on her face.

Still, there are all kinds of races they have models of that I'd love to play as much as or more than the current selections.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 08, 2011, 08:41:22 AM
Bariss Ofee from the prequels and Clone Wars.  Lady with the tattoos on her face.

Still, there are all kinds of races they have models of that I'd love to play as much as or more than the current selections.

Bariss Ofee! Of course! Yeah, that settles it - Mirialans have appeared in non-EU continuity. Can't believe I forgot her, but it's been a good long time since I saw any of the prequel trilogy or dug out my Clone Wars DVD (the original cartoon version).

As for your last point, that grates every time I run into a Nautolan, or Cathar, or Rodian, or...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 08, 2011, 08:42:24 AM
Bariss Ofee from the prequels and Clone Wars.  Lady with the tattoos on her face.

Still, there are all kinds of races they have models of that I'd love to play as much as or more than the current selections.

Bariss Ofee! Of course! Yeah, that settles it - Mirialans have appeared in non-EU continuity. Can't believe I forgot her, but it's been a good long time since I saw any of the prequel trilogy or dug out my Clone Wars DVD (the original cartoon version).

As for your last point, that grates every time I run into a Nautolan, or Cathar, or Rodian, or...

I am somehow comforted by the fact that I have no idea what you are talking about.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 08, 2011, 08:43:17 AM
Preach it, my kitty sibling!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2011, 08:47:53 AM
Yeah I think the Mirialans were an attempt to give us one of the badass Jedi Master races from the prequels while keeping to their bizarre human-body limitation for avatars.  Because of anyone I'd rather be Kai-Ai Mundi (conehead) or the one with the Red and White kin and the bitchin horns.  Luminara (green skin) was cool looking but that was her robes, not her race.

Hell, even squidhead Kitt Fisto (  :awesome_for_real: ) would be better.

Ed: Bariss was also Mirialan but was Luminara's padwan.   :drill:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 08, 2011, 08:54:41 AM
Hell, even squidhead Kitt Fisto (  :awesome_for_real: ) would be better.

Kit Fisto is a Nautolan and my favourite background Jedi character. Best smile in the galaxy, too!

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33689/1102289-kit_smile_super.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 08, 2011, 09:02:27 AM
He got it on with Aayla Secura during the Battle of Kamino too so BW can't say he wouldn't be appropriate for a romance plot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 08, 2011, 09:02:37 AM
Hell, even squidhead Kitt Fisto (  :awesome_for_real: ) would be better.

Kit Fisto is a Nautolan and my favourite background Jedi character. Best smile in the galaxy, too!

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33689/1102289-kit_smile_super.jpg)

He looks like a bug, bugs r scary..f that


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 08, 2011, 09:13:25 AM

Kit Fisto is a Nautolan and my favourite background Jedi character. Best smile in the galaxy, too!

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33689/1102289-kit_smile_super.jpg)

He was cuter when he was a baby... I am sure Will Smith will concur.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 08, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
He was also cooler when he was Ka D'Argo.

(http://images.wikia.com/farscape/images/4/4c/Dargo.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 08, 2011, 09:30:34 AM
Tentacle chins are wrong.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 08, 2011, 09:32:18 AM
Tentacle chins are wrong.

 :mob: :mob: :mob: :mob: :mob:

You shut your goddamned mouth when the adults are talking about Farscape!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2011, 09:37:21 AM
farscape > anything lucas ever shat out


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 08, 2011, 09:53:18 AM
You shut your goddamned mouth when the adults are talking about Farscape!

Farscape's great.   Specifically though the tentacle chin was a mistake.   


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 08, 2011, 10:05:16 AM
He got it on with Aayla Secura during the Battle of Kamino too so BW can't say he wouldn't be appropriate for a romance plot.

Yeah, but everyone got into Aayla's pants at some point. Kit (I hope he didn't live up to his surname) Fisto, Volfe Karkko, probably Quinlan Voss. That outfit was built for speed for a reason.

That said, yeah, no Kel Dor, no Nautolans, no Togrutas, no Cereans? Come on, they're humans with different shit on their heads! They could've been modeled in a weekend.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2011, 10:21:40 AM

That said, yeah, no Kel Dor, no Nautolans, no Togrutas, no Cereans? Come on, they're humans with different shit on their heads! They could've been modeled in a weekend.

Gotta save something for DLC


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 08, 2011, 10:37:50 AM

That said, yeah, no Kel Dor, no Nautolans, no Togrutas, no Cereans? Come on, they're humans with different shit on their heads! They could've been modeled in a weekend.

For all the bitching there already is about Twi'leks and their lekku clipping through hoods and junk.  The QQ for those other races would be phenomenal.

Although i do think that Togruta will probably be the first new race added.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 08, 2011, 10:51:36 AM
or the one with the Red and White kin and the bitchin horns.

Togruta. I really wanted to play a Togruta Jedi, but no such luck.  The worst part is one shows up as a Inquisitor companion of all things.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 08, 2011, 11:28:41 AM
Tentacle chins are wrong.
:cthulu:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 08, 2011, 11:50:05 AM
Well, let's be real, Cthulhu's tentacles started just under his, uh, nose.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 08, 2011, 11:50:41 AM
Also you think the chicks would love a guy with tentacles under his chin.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2011, 11:56:25 AM
D'hargo's woman trouble never made any sense.  Tentacle chin, 3-5' prehensile tongue, able to hold his breath for 30-45 minutes.  C'mon!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on December 08, 2011, 11:57:20 AM
So in an effort to keep up, I GIS'd Aayla Secura.

 :ye_gods:

The goggles. They do nothing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 08, 2011, 11:59:47 AM
D'hargo's woman trouble never made any sense.  Tentacle chin, 3-5' prehensile tongue, able to hold his breath for 30-45 minutes.  C'mon!

That doesn't mean he always used is powers for good.  The boy had some....  issues.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2011, 12:07:20 PM
So in an effort to keep up, I GIS'd Aayla Secura.

 :ye_gods:

The goggles. They do nothing.

Strong in this one rule 34 is.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2011, 12:19:32 PM
So in an effort to keep up, I GIS'd Aayla Secura.

 :ye_gods:

The goggles. They do nothing.

Never blindly GIS that kind of thing. NEVER!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 08, 2011, 12:22:37 PM
Don't know what's worse, the rule 34 shit or the cosplayers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2011, 01:18:57 PM
If you're going to classify one as worse because you don't understand then you're going to choose cosplayers. There's very little rule 34 involving thigh & belly cottage cheese and g-strings while there's a much, much higher % in the cosplay world.

No, that is NOT a challenge.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sand on December 08, 2011, 01:53:40 PM
So in an effort to keep up, I GIS'd Aayla Secura.

 :ye_gods:

The goggles. They do nothing.

Oh really?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 08, 2011, 02:27:10 PM
... i had to google what "GIS" stands for.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Jherad on December 08, 2011, 02:53:58 PM
Between the cosplay and the.... cartoons... I needed some wire wool for the eyes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 08, 2011, 03:26:38 PM
So in an effort to keep up, I GIS'd Aayla Secura.

 :ye_gods:

The goggles. They do nothing.

Oh really?

I cried when she died...I was so happy


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 08, 2011, 03:38:07 PM
Why do male Twi'leks have ears while the females have those cones on the sides of their heads instead?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 08, 2011, 03:42:11 PM
Because they're like that for some strange reason in Return of the Jedi.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 08, 2011, 04:10:49 PM
The handles go there.

And that was a lame back and forth discussion for years that was decided shortly before the first prequel came out IIRC.   Most folks (rightly, IMO) felt it was just part of OOla's (the slave dancer) headgear.   There was a vocal group who shouted for years in LA's direction that they were actually her ears.

It might have been SWG that decided it, thinking back..  I recall pictures of Twilek females with and without ears being used as reference.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 08, 2011, 04:19:26 PM
Why do male Twi'leks have ears while the females have those cones on the sides of their heads instead?

That has been irritating the shit out of me. Amusingly, I think that's part of why I like the dude twi'leks while scoffing at the females. The stupid earcone things on the ladies just ... enrage me, for some bizarre reason.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 08, 2011, 04:33:14 PM
You just wanted the OTHER Head Tails, admit it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 08, 2011, 04:49:31 PM
They do look pretty sweet, I'd play one.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2011, 04:53:24 PM
Those aren't ears or earcones, they're  covers.  Where did you think the tentacles went?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 08, 2011, 04:58:08 PM
Kit Fisto is a Nautolan and my favourite background Jedi character. Best smile in the galaxy, too!

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33689/1102289-kit_smile_super.jpg)

Less well knows is his brother, Stumpy Fisto.  Stumpy had trouble with this head tentacles flying around uncontrollably while he was trying to wield his lightsaber.

Those aren't ears or earcones, they're  covers.  Where did you think the tentacles went?

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.  :headscratch:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 08, 2011, 05:15:01 PM
I think he's implying they're a heavy-duty condom.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 08, 2011, 05:16:42 PM
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.  :headscratch:

Meat curtains?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on December 08, 2011, 06:22:09 PM
This thread is going to a dark dark place.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 08, 2011, 06:23:01 PM
Remember your failure at the cave?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 08, 2011, 07:30:46 PM
Remember your failure at the cave?

It was dark!  I was 14!  It was my first time!  Get off my back about it!   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Der Helm on December 08, 2011, 09:40:04 PM
Also you think the chicks would love a guy with tentacles under his chin.   :awesome_for_real:
:ye_gods:

D'hargo's woman trouble never made any sense.  Tentacle chin, 3-5' prehensile tongue, able to hold his breath for 30-45 minutes.  C'mon!

 :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 08, 2011, 11:50:06 PM
Those faces lack tentacle chins.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 09, 2011, 02:05:58 AM
can anyone explain what the fuck is going on with this game?

We're going to release ON THE 22ND OF DECEMBER BECAUSE WHAT COULD GO WRONG, RIGHT?

Oh, that's not so smart, we're going to release on the 20th of December.

No wait, we're going to do it on the 15th now. But we'll give you like exactly 3 days heads up, so you better be ready!

I got to quote darth vader in a work related email, so that should count for something  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on December 09, 2011, 02:41:43 AM
can anyone explain what the fuck is going on with this game?

We're going to release ON THE 22ND OF DECEMBER BECAUSE WHAT COULD GO WRONG, RIGHT?

Oh, that's not so smart, we're going to release on the 20th of December.

No wait, we're going to do it on the 15th now. But we'll give you like exactly 3 days heads up, so you better be ready!

I got to quote darth vader in a work related email, so that should count for something  :uhrr:


The 22nd was only ever going to be the EU release.  They moved it up to release at the same time as the U.S. launch, which seems to me like a good thing.  The 15th was the first day of the pre-order head start.  That got moved ahead to the 13th (depending of course on when you entered your pre-order code).  Again, can't really complain about potentially two extra free days of play.  Shit's not really that complicated, and I'm not sure how these changes could be viewed as anything other the beneficial to the customers.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised that someone is finding a way to be upset about it though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 09, 2011, 02:53:58 AM
I'm upset as the guy that has to move boxes to the customers, not upset as a customer. Also as the guy said customers will be yelling at in a couple of days. This shit is retarded on a level I've not seen, ever. And publishers can be plenty retarded.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on December 09, 2011, 03:01:45 AM
There's something about the holiday season that always makes me grateful that I don't work in retail anymore.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Shatter on December 09, 2011, 03:31:16 AM
There's something about the holiday season that always makes me grateful that I don't work in retail anymore.

Me and u both lol


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 09, 2011, 04:47:16 AM
can anyone explain what the fuck is going on with this game?

We're going to release ON THE 22ND OF DECEMBER BECAUSE WHAT COULD GO WRONG, RIGHT?

Oh, that's not so smart, we're going to release on the 20th of December.

No wait, we're going to do it on the 15th now. But we'll give you like exactly 3 days heads up, so you better be ready!

I got to quote darth vader in a work related email, so that should count for something  :uhrr:

wtf is going on here, is the release date now something other than 20th December? (I mean for normal people who buy normal shit in normal shops through the normal process of paying cash money in exchange for something you want and doing so at time of exchange)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 09, 2011, 04:52:28 AM
EA has altered the deal. Pray they don't alter it further.

(yes it's 15th, officially offical now)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 09, 2011, 05:05:43 AM
Servers don't open for non pre-order people until the 20th though. That's the important bit. Even if you buy the box on the 15th, you won't get access before the 20th unless you redeemed your pre-order code.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 09, 2011, 05:08:57 AM
Where are you getting this from? My logs show nothing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 09, 2011, 05:26:35 AM
Servers don't open for non pre-order people until the 20th though. That's the important bit. Even if you buy the box on the 15th, you won't get access before the 20th unless you redeemed your pre-order code.

If you have the box you have a real code, why would it matter if you have the pre-order code? If that's correct, congrats to EA, I thought this couldn't possibly get any more confusing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 09, 2011, 05:31:16 AM
BW's is trying to do the boxed people a solid by encouraging retailers to send out their copies early for those that ordered their shit to be home delivered.  This is in part to the whole "no grace period" thing.  You fuckers could be a little less bitchy and little more grateful...I'm not seeing the cynical here at all  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 09, 2011, 05:33:16 AM
If you have the box you have a real code, why would it matter if you have the pre-order code? If that's correct, congrats to EA, I thought this couldn't possibly get any more confusing.
The game releases on 20th. If you have pre-orderd they you *might* be able to start playing on 13th but EA is promising nothing. Even a wookie could understand that!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 09, 2011, 05:41:36 AM
My plan is to buy this game or around the 20th, then install it on my personal computer, and then shoot stormtroopers.

As far as I can tell this is still allowed though lots of making fuss over nothing seems to be gong on.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 09, 2011, 05:52:25 AM
Yes this game managed to get everyone here to drop their 'cynic seen-it-all-diku-sucks mmo vet' masquerade and act like 13 year old justin bieber fangirls they are. Now we know what F13 really stands for.

It's delicious.   :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 09, 2011, 06:02:24 AM
Yes this game managed to get everyone here to drop their 'cynic seen-it-all-diku-sucks mmo vet' masquerade and act like 13 year old justin bieber fangirls they are. Now we know what F13 really stands for.

It's delicious.   :grin:

They act like this before every MMO then after a couple months it's torn to shreds, it's a vicious cycle really.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 09, 2011, 06:09:09 AM
I fully expect it to fall apart at endgame like most do, but the story presentation is pretty good for an MMO so it'll do its job and hold my interest for a few months likely.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 09, 2011, 06:14:37 AM
If you have the box you have a real code, why would it matter if you have the pre-order code? If that's correct, congrats to EA, I thought this couldn't possibly get any more confusing.
The game releases on 20th. If you have pre-orderd they you *might* be able to start playing on 13th but EA is promising nothing. Even a wookie could understand that!

That implies wookiees aren't clever. They play FutureChess, fly through hyperspace and repair spaceships. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have a problem understanding the difference between a pre-order code and a game-registration code.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 09, 2011, 06:16:31 AM
The game releases on 20th. If you have pre-orderd they you *might* be able to start playing on 13th but EA is promising nothing. Even a wookie could understand that!
Wookiee.  TWO Eees, damnit!

But if he doesn't like it, he'll rip your arms off.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 09, 2011, 06:22:39 AM
Wookiee.  TWO Eees, damnit!

(http://images35.fotki.com/v1167/photos/1/1317618/6073030/roflbot-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 09, 2011, 06:28:17 AM
If you have the box you have a real code, why would it matter if you have the pre-order code? If that's correct, congrats to EA, I thought this couldn't possibly get any more confusing.
The game releases on 20th. If you have pre-orderd they you *might* be able to start playing on 13th but EA is promising nothing. Even a wookie could understand that!

Yes, it'll be amazing for everyone involved on the distribution/retail side trust me. We'll have moms walking in and calling in demanding to know why the game they bought for timmy doesn't work. It'll be even better with the 20something Timmy's, that don't speak a word of english and demand to know why we sold them a "fake" game. Yes. Amazing.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 09, 2011, 06:42:25 AM
 :facepalm:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 09, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
It's MMO. You sold them a fake game regardless.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 09, 2011, 07:08:38 AM
Yes, it'll be amazing for everyone involved on the distribution/retail side trust me. We'll have moms walking in and calling in demanding to know why the game they bought for timmy doesn't work.
Won't Timmy be getting his game on the 25th anyway?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 09, 2011, 08:26:34 AM
Yes, it'll be amazing for everyone involved on the distribution/retail side trust me.
If this is all it takes to get you worked up, it's time for a new job.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on December 09, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
BW's is trying to do the boxed people a solid by encouraging retailers to send out their copies early for those that ordered their shit to be home delivered.  This is in part to the whole "no grace period" thing.  You fuckers could be a little less bitchy and little more grateful...I'm not seeing the cynical here at all  :oh_i_see:
Grateful?  That they are fucking everything up by not having a grace period and springing this on the retailers to make it their and their customer's problem?

Can someone please give luckton a title along the lines of "Cockgobbling EA Apologist"?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 09, 2011, 08:43:04 AM
BW's is trying to do the boxed people a solid by encouraging retailers to send out their copies early for those that ordered their shit to be home delivered.  This is in part to the whole "no grace period" thing.  You fuckers could be a little less bitchy and little more grateful...I'm not seeing the cynical here at all  :oh_i_see:
Grateful?  That they fucking everything up by not having a grace period and springing this on the retailers to make it their and their customer's problem?

Can someone please give luckton a title along the lines of "Cockgobbling EA Apologist"?

 :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 09, 2011, 08:47:29 AM
Grateful?  That they fucking everything up by not having a grace period and springing this on the retailers to make it their and their customer's problem?
Could be easily solved by not having any "early access" at all. :oh_i_see:

incidentally, i'm of firm belief people waste more time bitching on the intrawebs about how there will be a brief period they won't be able to play... than they'd actually spend playing if there actually was any 'grace period'. And a month down the road most will log in once a week on their own accord, if that.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: amiable on December 09, 2011, 08:52:45 AM
Jeez you guys get mean right before a release.  Honestly me and 7 friends (well 5, we are looking for 2 more to play so we can experience "raiding") are just looking for a fun game to play together a couple of nights a week, without the punishing unforgiveness of fps's (because we are all old and slow).  This game seems to provide this.  WoW would probably also provide this but we are sick of the world and the 10 person bar is too high for us to reach now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 09, 2011, 08:53:46 AM
BW's is trying to do the boxed people a solid by encouraging retailers to send out their copies early for those that ordered their shit to be home delivered.  This is in part to the whole "no grace period" thing.  You fuckers could be a little less bitchy and little more grateful...I'm not seeing the cynical here at all  :oh_i_see:
Grateful?  That they fucking everything up by not having a grace period and springing this on the retailers to make it their and their customer's problem?

Can someone please give luckton a title along the lines of "Cockgobbling EA Apologist"?

I'm in the middle on this one. Again, it seems to point to Bioware's MMO newbness, or else some industry vet's idea of how to "make it better". I honestly think if they had a program manager for their release, then that person wasn't able to herd the cats early enough to get a unified story/plan out the door. It almost looks like no one was managing this, or 2-3 people with different ideas were.

Here's my category list of weirdness:

1. "Beta Weekends!" but not every weekend, and we have "regular testers", and we aren't testing our patching system until pretty much release week...

2. You don't need to uninstall your client. We'll send you an email that tells you to uninstall your client. Unless it's Tuesday. And the moon is waxing. But you can download it early. If you uninstall. But you don't need to really uninstall. You can patch at release. After the patcher and launcher update. Again.

3. "Hey thanks for testing!" emails -- sent out to thousands of people who didn't get invited to test in the first place.

4. We're releasing in Europe on Dec 22 -- two days after NA release. No, now we're releasing on the 20th. Well, now we're making EU retailers have boxes on the 15th. But no Oceanic stuff.

5. You can get in early. Yay! Even earlier than we promised. Yay! But there is no grace period. Huh? So if you don't have the box you preordered on the full-launch date, you can't play. WTF?  But we're working to make sure you'll have the box before launch date. Yay!


I honestly don't really care about all the pre-launch days and stuff because come a week after launch, all of this and the beta will be long forgotten except by those who hang on to resentments like Linus does his blanket.

However, the whiplash I'm getting from their schizophrenic pre-release communication and plans makes me want to see a chiropractor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 09, 2011, 10:28:20 AM
As a heads up the official forums are getting wiped tonight/tomorrow.  If there's anything over there that you want to copy/save you may want to do it soon. 



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 09, 2011, 10:30:05 AM
My guess is that they put on a grace period of a day surrounding release date. They just won't tell you until the 15th.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 09, 2011, 10:33:17 AM
The way people abuse SR on twitter makes me ashamed to be a part of the gaming community as a whole.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 09, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
My theory is that the pre-release bioware mindfuckery was simply to weed out lazy folk who cant keep up with such drama.  This way, they have a built in mechanism of slowly ramping up server loads and separating the playerbases.  Between the release changes, early-access contest, and patch/client issues it'll be a miracle if anyone even gets to play with their friends the 1st week.

So, the only viable excuse for this sophomoric pre-release performance is some deep seeded conspiratorial reason bioware came up with.  Like, "our servers really arent built for this shit."  Or, "the engine cant really handle more than 20 PC assets onscreen at a time."  Or, whatever.  There has to be a reason.  Right?   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 09, 2011, 11:47:54 AM
Never mistake anything for encompetence.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 09, 2011, 03:39:30 PM
From Twitter:

The Old Republic @SWTOR

Eager to find out what server your #SWTOR Guild will be placed on? Your Guild HQ update is coming on Monday!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 09, 2011, 04:46:34 PM
The way people abuse SR on twitter makes me ashamed to be a part of the gaming community as a whole.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/207/234/you-must-be-new-here-willy-wonka.jpg?1322247093) (http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/207234-you-must-be-new-here)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 10, 2011, 03:42:29 AM
sith inquisitor character progression (http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/sith-inquisitor-character-progression)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 10, 2011, 06:52:01 AM
That's probably the best character progression trailer out of them all.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2011, 06:56:19 AM
The bit where Korm died was quite amusing, based on those of you complaining how squishy he was.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 10, 2011, 08:11:17 AM
That's probably the best character progression trailer out of them all.
Yeah, got impression they had gotten quite better at how to show off the class skills and whatnot.

Those outfits aren't bad either. I'm toying with the idea of Darth Liberace now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 10, 2011, 08:53:01 AM
Never mistake anything for encompetence.

(http://www.arterimalaysia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/futurama_fry_looking_squint2.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 10, 2011, 10:17:58 AM
http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/121/1214438p1.html
Quote
No more beta tests and no more character wipes. Starting on December 13, 2011 those who preordered BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic will be rolled into in the live game before the official launch date of December 20. We'll be playing as soon as we get in, and posting plenty of impressions and video leading up to the official review, which will likely appear several weeks after launch after we've had a chance to adequately explore.

In the meantime, check out what BioWare's game director James Ohlen had to say about the beta, the launch, and how The Old Republic will develop in the near future. For more on the game plays, you'll find plenty of info in our recent beta coverage.

IGN: During beta, which are some of the elements that changed the most and in ways you didn't expect? I mean I saw a post recently about how much the item modding has changed.

James Ohlen: Item modding is a really good one. What happened there was we had this really cool item modding system that had a lot of fans but was incomprehensible to the majority of our players. We wanted to make it more understandable so that more players could get into it because it's a major part of our itemization. It needed to be something that everyone in the game could wrap their heads around but we didn't want to take away all the depth and the coolness that you know the fans of the system saw in it, so we went back to the drawing board, made some changes but it was a little bit controversial because our changes didn't all come in right away. Now that the whole system's in there we've been getting really good, like the last round of feedback on it was really positive so that's good.

IGN: Were there any unexpected things in there in terms of systems that went really well that you didn't think would make much of an impact? Or systems that people reacted to negatively that you thought were okay otherwise?

James Ohlen: Recently there haven't been too many big surprises. It's because we've been testing the game for many, many months now, for more than a year and we've been making adjustments as we've been going along. In this last stage of the game development we've been trying to make sure not to rock the boat too much because if we make too many widespread changes that could result in a whole bunch of bad bugs which we don't want to ship with.

The Old Republic Space Combat

One recent change we did was with Flashpoints. We made it easier for people to get to Flashpoints [The Old Republic's dungeons]. In order to group up to do a Flashpoint were waiting around in the fleet, but that wasn't really a behavior that was conducive to people finding groups because you only want to wait around for so long before you get bored and want to do other stuff. So we introduced breadcrumb quests on the actual worlds and a shuttle on the world could take you to the fleets, so that while you were adventuring say on Alderaan and you came across one of the Flashpoint quests you could start looking for groups right on Alderaan where there's tons of people adventuring. Then when you finally got that group together you could go to the shuttle and go straight to the fleet and get into that Flashpoint. We're doing things that are going to improve the playability of our existing systems and make it easier for players to group, make it easier for players to understand a certain system.

IGN: Moving forward might there be something like a group finder or something like that? An auto-finder implemented into the game?

James Ohlen Some people ask for a dungeon finder system but the thing about those systems is they're really for more of a mature online game. If you put a system in early on it really takes away from the exploration of the level up game. If you have people all just basically waiting around their dungeon finder and all being grouped up together, they're going to actually take the time to explore all the worlds that are available in the Old Republic galaxy. So it's definitely a feature that we want to put in, we just want to put it in at the right time. However, the looking for group feature is something that we continue to work on, we want to make that more robust and more powerful.

IGN: What's the plan for maybe three, six months outside of launch?

James Ohlen: We're careful not to promise a date for any of the features, but I can tell you what we're working on. Guild functionality is something that we're working on right now. The first piece of guild functionality that we want in the game is guild banks. We have a team that's essentially just going to be pumping out new guild functionality on a regular basis. The other thing we're working on, obviously we have multiple teams on Flashpoints and Operations so that's the high level content, some of our best content, the hardest content in the game where you have an epic story. We're continuing to work on those so we have multiple teams working on flashpoints and operations, we have new [player versus player] War Zones planned, we have new open world PvP planned, and we have a team on that as well.

IGN: I was also curious about space combat and how that might evolve. How are the later game missions different from the early game ones and will they ever become sort of a multiplayer experience?

James Ohlen: We're going to continue to add missions. That's another thing that actually surprised us. While we knew that because we weren't doing a freeform X-wing versus Tie Fighter-style space game that we were going to get backlash, that didn't surprise us and obviously we got that feedback a long time ago. We've been working really hard to continue to improve the space game that we have and it's definitely become more popular with our fans with each [beta] iteration. The very last test we had it scored higher than it's ever scored before. I don't think it's going to win over people who want X-wing versus Tie Fighter but I do think people are going to find that it's very evocative of Star Wars and it's a fun activity when you want to take a break from questing. You can go to your own starship and involve yourself in some very awesome Rogue Squadron-y space combat. I can say that we do have a special project going on right now in regards to the space game that will expand the space game in a significant way, but that's not something that's coming right away.

IGN: Can you explain what the Legacy system is meant to be?

James Ohlen: What we're giving at ship is basically just a taste of the Legacy System. It's allowing you to essentially choose your legacy name, essentially your family name. You're creating a family, and you can populate that family with children or siblings, but you can also populate it with friends and henchmen. Even though it's part of a family you can still have aliens or people that aren't actually related to your other characters. This is one of the features that we have a lot of people focused on right now. All the characters in that family tree are going to share the benefits that come from being part of that family and those benefits are going to include new powers, new items, there's going to be a whole bunch of different things that you're able to unlock through the Legacy system.

The inspiration for it is that Star Wars is very much about family, you have the relationship between Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker so that was what started it off. We also wanted another reason to reward players for playing more than one character. If you decide to be the player who plays the Bounty Hunter and an Imperial Agent and a Jedi Knight, you're actually rewarded for doing that because you know they can all be part of the same family tree.

IGN: In terms of how much content is actually going to be in the game at launch, I assume the majority of what's been mentioned is actually going to make it into the final product. You'll have full story content for every class all the way to the cap as well as the sort of endgame Operations and all the Flashpoints in between that have been talked about?

James Ohlen: We've been working on the project for a long time, but the benefit to that is we've actually been able to polish all of the content from level one to fifty. Every single online game that's come out so far has always had a drop off in quality in terms of the content at a certain level. That drop off doesn't happen in Star Wars the Old Republic. Each of the planets has the same cinematic quality, the amount of effort we put on making the encounters interesting and fun.

IGN: What opportunities are there for each class' storylines to go in different directions? So if I'm playing an Inquisitor, could another Inquisitor storyline not be exactly the same thing as mine? I noticed a few decision points but I didn't really get a sense of what that was actually doing to my overall questing arc.

James Ohlen: One of the things, something we do in every single Bioware game, from originally in Baldur's Gate and then in Dragon Age and Mass Effect in recent times, we always show the player the impact of his actions along the way. The biggest impacts are usually reserved for when a story coming to its close, so you're going to see the big impacts at the end of chapter one for your character and then at the end of chapter two and three. We've also added a system that was very late so players only got to see it in the last testing weekend. The quest givers that you come across and you make decisions with will actually communicate with you afterwards. They can send messages to your starship and if you helped them out they might give you a reward or they might have a funny story about what happened afterwards or they might be cursing you for destroying their lives.

IGN: For graphics options, will there be any additional tweak options you can make just in the menu aside from what we've seen in beta when the game goes live?

James Ohlen: We have some. Some of the textures we had were messed up a little, we've fixed that up. Anti-aliasing is something that we're going to have in either right after launch or for launch. It's just something that we had on very late so that's another graphical option that you're going to be able to have access to.

IGN: How confident are you that you can handle the rush of players on launch day and in the early access leading up to the official launch day?

James Ohlen: We had more people coming in faster [during the latest beta phase] than what our limits are for launch so launch should be easier than that weekend. I like to knock on wood when I say that because I don't want to curse it but that weekend went very well so we're pretty confident.

IGN: In terms of the actual strategy for bringing content out, I mean I know you can't discuss specific schedules but will fairly major content will be patched into the game for paying subscribers or might that be locked behind some sort of pricing wall? Are you holding most major content for some larger content release further down the line?

James Ohlen: No, we're going to be releasing major content to subscribers. They're not going to have to pay anything extra for the major content. We're going to be doing that regularly. It's going to be significant, you're going to be able to travel to entirely new worlds in the galaxy and you're not going to have to pay to have to do that. Now obviously we also have an expansion pack planned but that's, you know, much farther into the future.

I know there's been some talk about [user interface customization] amongst our fans and is something that they're very passionate about. That's another thing that we have a team working on, to players a lot more power to essentially adjust their UI so they can move UI elements around, they can change the size or the alignment of it, and essentially customize how they get to play the game.

So, to sum up:
No dungeon finder yet because it's against their Vision (tm) at the present time.
Guild Banks and new content Soon (tm).
And Bioware thinks UI customisation means "resizing windows" instead of "fixing their broken-arse default one via mods".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 10, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
I'm ok with resizing windows if I can move them around.

Seriously, the way some of you talk about the UI it sounds like it raped your eyeballs.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 10, 2011, 10:58:30 AM
Yeah, I really don't get all the hate on their UI. Aesthetically I really like it and it feels quite Star Wars-y. Just let me move it, resize it, add target-of-target and skill forwarding and I'll be like a pig in bantha poodoo.

Edit: and do something with the companion bar, current implementation is a complete pita to use.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 10, 2011, 11:02:53 AM
Yeah, moving and resizing all the UI elements is all I really want.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2011, 11:04:34 AM
I have 2 gripes with it.

1) The inability to scale it up or down.  Maybe I have a big fucking screen and play at 1640x1050 and would like the icons smaller than my goddamn thumb, yeah?
2) The inability to move pieces.  Chat on top and button bar on the left and right? No thanks.

It doesn't make it unplayable but it is damn annoying.  


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 10, 2011, 01:50:25 PM
Moving and resizing is all I wanted. I agree with Jimmy O about the dungeon finder, it's not a huge deal for the early days.

But by now I think we all know who falls on which side of those issues and why  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 10, 2011, 02:32:08 PM
Hell, I'll be satisfied with just being able to move things around. At 1080p res the UI isn't too badly scaled, but placements piss me off. Whoever thought putting the chat window in the top left corner was a good idea needs a slap. Doing something different for the sake of difference alone is stupid, especially when it comes to something pretty much every MMO I've ever known has agreed on being the ideal position for something as critical.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 03:44:03 PM
Yeah, I really don't get all the hate on their UI. Aesthetically I really like it and it feels quite Star Wars-y. Just let me move it, resize it, add target-of-target and skill forwarding and I'll be like a pig in bantha poodoo.

Edit: and do something with the companion bar, current implementation is a complete pita to use.

Those cover all my complaints too, really.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 10, 2011, 03:59:36 PM
Argh, if you're going to take away anything from WoW, take away that Addons are fucking great and as long as you sandbox them properly you essentially get the PLAYERS to do the hardwork of unfucking your interface.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 10, 2011, 04:09:43 PM
The only mods I was using in WoW at the end had nothing to do with the UI: Recount, Auctioneer, Bad Kitty, Spellstealer and Altoholic iirc.  So I can't say I'd really miss mods as long as I could set the layout of the stock UI as I pleased.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Maledict on December 10, 2011, 04:21:35 PM
No dungeon finder because it stops the sense of exploration?

How the fuck is standing outside a dungeon entrance spamming 'lfg' exploring? Seriously? Just admit you haven't had time to put one in and it's coming ASAP because 99% of the player base won't touch an instance without it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 10, 2011, 04:23:59 PM
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

All of the above except the combat log were added to the stock WoW UI after being in add-ons. You're going to miss them more than you think, especially if you have any plans on tanking in dungeons/raids.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 04:25:19 PM
While I don't buy the "the EXPLORATION" thing, early on in a game's career you'll run into a lot of people looking to do the same flashpoints as you easily enough. It's once that initial rush is over that the lack of dungeon finder is going to be annoying.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 10, 2011, 04:37:02 PM
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

All of the above except the combat log were added to the stock WoW UI after being in add-ons. You're going to miss them more than you think, especially if you have any plans on tanking in dungeons/raids.
LoTRO has only target of target (and i suppose the 'reliable tab targetting' since dunno what defines it, so i'll presume it's reliable) Oh, and combat log which i never look at. Could do 12 people raids in it fine, so doubt going to miss the others listed, really...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 10, 2011, 04:39:11 PM
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

All of the above except the combat log were added to the stock WoW UI after being in add-ons. You're going to miss them more than you think, especially if you have any plans on tanking in dungeons/raids.

Other than Target of Target and a decent Tab Targeting those other things aren't necessary.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 10, 2011, 04:44:23 PM
The only mods I was using in WoW at the end had nothing to do with the UI: Recount, Auctioneer, Bad Kitty, Spellstealer and Altoholic iirc.  So I can't say I'd really miss mods as long as I could set the layout of the stock UI as I pleased.

That's because over the years Blizzard has taken the more popular mods and incorporated them into the base interface or designed the game to emulate their functions in more useful ways.

As an example, before Wrath of the Lich King, threat was completely invisible to a player not running mods to calculate it.

Edit: And the need for threat meters is dependent on game design.  You only need them in WoW now in cases with an extreme difference in gear levels for the most part.  In SWTOR, especially with the large amount of ranged attackers, there's no real sense of how much a tank has under control at a glance.  I'd like to have them or something along the lines of useful nameplates.

I'd also like a buff display I can filter and customize.  Having to go by a tiny icon and fading effect for a relatively essential class mechanic like Tactical Advantage is a massive pain in the ass.  Compared to the energy pip display which is quite well done (even if it doesn't factor in buffs).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 10, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

All of the above except the combat log were added to the stock WoW UI after being in add-ons. You're going to miss them more than you think, especially if you have any plans on tanking in dungeons/raids.

That's a nice list of things I don't need.  Well, except for the tab targeting but that should always be part of the core design anyway.

Yeah, I used Bad Kitty which was a sort of power aura thing I suppose, but that was more out of laziness than need.  Threat meters only creep up to 'necessary' if the stuff you're fighting wrecks non-tanks in 3 seconds, which is more a case of bad design than bad UI in my opinion.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 10, 2011, 05:15:28 PM
Quote
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

Who needs that crap? And yes, I used all those...but really these tools should be reminders of a time to be ashamed off.
I mean threat meters, analyzing combat logs, proc tracking...really. I used to be a proud warrior leader of the 2nd best raid group on Argent Dawn-EU and Field Marshall during the pre-Arathi Basin days, when it still meant something. But I have grown up since.

Poopsocking is not a badge of honor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on December 10, 2011, 05:25:50 PM
No dungeon finder because it stops the sense of exploration?

How the fuck is standing outside a dungeon entrance spamming 'lfg' exploring? Seriously? Just admit you haven't had time to put one in and it's coming ASAP because 99% of the player base won't touch an instance without it.

It's not that standing outside a dungeon is exploring, I think it's the fact that being able to queue up for dungeons, and getting auto-grouped and teleported there then becomes the quickest way to get xp and typically the best loot which discourages people from doing any of the other content.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 05:34:32 PM
No good target of target and skill forwarding is annoying, that's not a poopsocking issue, that's a "I want to group with more than just me" issue.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:37:52 PM
Target of target makes pvp trivial as does tab targetting.  Combat log allows for 3rd party parsers. 

Not that pvp is the focus or anything... Just saying. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 05:40:43 PM
Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2011, 05:41:36 PM
Power Auras and it's cousins are game mechanics based. If you have a system where there are a bunch of "if X procs, do Y", it becomes a required system. Because the alternative is to stare at the far corner of your screen waiting for icons to appear. The point of it is not "make me a better player", it's "let me look at the action, not *random UI element*"

It's very much related to the movable UI complaint: right now in TOR if you want to use your character/group to it's full extent there is FAR too much eye movement across the screen and away from the pretty game to try and get all the information you need. You are basically sweeping from Health Bars to Energy/Force/Ammo to ability cooldowns to buffs in a rotation, assuming you never need the chat window and are using voice.

UI mods try to drag most of that required information into a central location so you can focus more on the game and less on trying to find the data you need to play it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 10, 2011, 05:42:34 PM
Target of target makes pvp trivial as does tab targetting.  Combat log allows for 3rd party parsers. 

Not that pvp is the focus or anything... Just saying. 

No it doesn't?



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 10, 2011, 05:42:45 PM
A combat log is essential to have in the game.  It may not be essential to the vast majority of players, but it's an important tool to have in a game that's even slightly complicated.

Just this past week, the only thing I could add to a bug report if I didn't have a combat log was "my pet died when it went to attack this mob", if I was less attentive about it, I might not even be able to say that it actually died.  With a combat log, I could see that nothing is credited with killing it and that it did get an attack or two off before it mysteriously died.  This is useful information for the developers so they can fix issues and make a better game.

More broadly, this isn't a game that's designed to tell you at every moment why or how something happened through animations or explicit cues.  Without a combat log, there is no combat memory, all the player has are the bars as they are now and some numbers flying around.

Also, parsers are a red herring.  A developer can simply not expose the combat log through an API or by dumping to an external file.  Moreover, what is actually exposed to the player, at all, can be customized.  LotRO for example only shows the player's information, no one else's.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:43:06 PM
Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.

It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 10, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.
It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.

That's not what I understand everyone else means by "target of target".  You're referring to "pass through targeting" or macro conditionals that do similar functions.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:45:59 PM
Target of target allows a player to see the target of their target.  You target the tank/main assist and their target becomes your target.  I'm fine with target of target if it allows you to see what an enemy/mob is targeting though.   It's one of many add ons that allow for lazy gameplay (IMO)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2011, 05:47:21 PM
A combat log is pretty much the only way to know shit is working/isn't working. The beta weekend I had a number of instances where my companion charged a mob and died, with the only visible display in the UI being two hits for ~500 against his ~4,000 health. Now either something hit him for more than that and didn't display properly, or something was bugged to shit. I don't know, because I can't look at the log and even see what damage type he was taking.

And Nebu: target of target has nothing to do with assist training. You may be thinking of smart targeting features, where you target the tank and hit an attack skill and it hits his target (CoH did this, for example). Assist buttons serve that function regardless of target of target.. Target of Target lets you know who the assist target IS, and lets you know what a mob is aiming at when they do strange shit like "will randomly target some asshole, use ability, then retarget someone else"

Moreover, if you allow smart casting with target of target, it lets healers do things like help DPS and still heal without mouseover healing UIs. Asking me to run around shooting the boss then retargeting and healing all day is just.. painful.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:48:53 PM
And Nebu: target of target has nothing to do with assist training. You may be thinking of smart targeting features, where you target the tank and hit an attack skill and it hits his target (CoH did this, for example). Assist buttons serve that function regardless of target of target.. Target of Target lets you know who the assist target IS, and lets you know what a mob is aiming at when they do strange shit like "will randomly target some asshole, use ability, then retarget someone else"

These games simply need to allow for dual targeting.  A healing target and a separate, self-selected damage target.  Problem solved.

Didn't Vanguard do this years ago?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 10, 2011, 05:49:49 PM
Target of target allows a player to see the target of their target.  You target the tank/main assist and their target becomes your target.  I'm fine with target of target if it allows you to see what an enemy/mob is targeting though.   It's one of many add ons that allow for lazy gameplay (IMO)

The bolded part isn't the case without targeting that unit manually (in a game without pass through targeting), leaving you without knowledge of what the main assist is now targeting.  (Assuming you don't have a focus/secondary stored target and its target somewhere in the interface.)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2011, 05:51:14 PM
It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Target of Target is just UI information, nothing else. Smart Targeting is just trying to make the UI a bit more functional. SWTOR already has a bit of it (casting a heal when targeting a hostile heals YOU for example, it doesn't just tell you invalid target)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:53:57 PM
It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 05:57:38 PM
Target of target and tab targetting in PvP is a good thing. There, I said it.

It renders assist trains brainless to play.  Just target the main assist and spam attack keys.  Same with pve encounters for that matter.  Target of target requires zero situational awareness.

Because that is totally different from making an "assist <main assist>" macro like you could WAY BACK in DAoC.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 10, 2011, 05:59:19 PM
Because that is totally different from making an "assist <main assist>" macro like you could WAY BACK in DAoC.

I hated that too and often bitched about it on the forums.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2011, 06:01:05 PM
It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.

I went to 30 and didn't know it either. I was raging hard about it until someone posted some blog about how to turn it on.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 10, 2011, 06:02:51 PM
Assist _____ buttons are mostly there so when you pull the group of identical mobs you aren't sitting there figuring out which one the tank wants you on. Icons make this a bit better, but in some pulls you still wind up just staring at a clump of icons trying to find the one you want so you can start attacking.

Target tank, press F just makes things easier.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 06:10:07 PM
It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

Ah, thanks.  I only played to level 10 in beta, so I'm a wee bit ignorant of the less obvious bits.

I went to 30 and didn't know it either. I was raging hard about it until someone posted some blog about how to turn it on.

It's still shitty compared to, like, just having a goddamn assist key.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 10, 2011, 06:43:35 PM
It has that (re: nebu's desire for alternate targeting), there was a video on how to do it posted in this or another thread. It's strangely hidden in the UI options, you set a button to create a sub target, and a button to use as a cast modifier to cast on them.

It's WoW's "Focus Targeting" so you've got a permanent alt target in addition to whatever you're tab-targeting.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on December 10, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
Tab targeting is key for me. I am a fiend on that tab key, and I get frustrated quickly when it doesnt work well.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 10, 2011, 07:05:59 PM
Tab targeting is key for me. I am a fiend on that tab key, and I get frustrated quickly when it doesnt work well.

That's the only thing I missed but you can set, under options, the ability for you to switch to the nearest target when your current one is dead.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 10, 2011, 08:30:14 PM
I found that setting in the turkey beta, went much better than the 367 weekend.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 10, 2011, 08:35:18 PM
Quote
TOR does not have:
Threat metres.
Target of target.
Reliable tab targetting.
A combat log.
Proc/powerauras tracking.

Who needs that crap? And yes, I used all those...but really these tools should be reminders of a time to be ashamed off.
I mean threat meters, analyzing combat logs, proc tracking...really. I used to be a proud warrior leader of the 2nd best raid group on Argent Dawn-EU and Field Marshall during the pre-Arathi Basin days, when it still meant something. But I have grown up since.

Poopsocking is not a badge of honor.

None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: koro on December 10, 2011, 09:39:16 PM
Speaking as someone who plans on being a career tank in TOR, I find all five things on that list pretty much essential and have all been things I've sorely missed after about 90 levels stuffed into a tank-specced Jedi Guardian.

Can I make do without them? Sure, and I have. It's sure as hell not fun, though, and it makes figuring out how to be a better player a lot more of a chore than it needs to be.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 10, 2011, 09:58:42 PM
I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

CLEARLY I AM A THREAT SAVANT


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Evildrider on December 10, 2011, 10:09:12 PM
I had omen but never had it running.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 10, 2011, 10:30:04 PM
The only thread meter I ever needed was the mob turning and running at me (if I wasn't tanking) or the mob turning and running away from me (if I was).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 10, 2011, 10:59:45 PM
The only thread meter I ever needed was the mob turning and running at me (if I wasn't tanking) or the mob turning and running away from me (if I was).

That's useful in a game where the majority of mobs are melee like WoW.  That's not the case in SWTOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 10, 2011, 11:18:12 PM
I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

CLEARLY I AM A THREAT SAVANT


Not everyone had threat drops sadly. My moonkin was basically one crit away from pulling aggro in almost every fight in TBC. It's just half the time I could tank the mob nearly as well as the tank  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 12:16:50 AM
Yeah but if, say, Ingmar crit on his double lightning bolt or whatever, it quickly became obvious this was the case and no amount of threat meter would change that (and it wouldn't stop him from doing it either, because elemental shamans were hilarious like that back then). It just was never, ever a big deal from where I was sitting.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 11, 2011, 02:34:49 AM
Speaking as someone who plans on being a career tank in TOR, I find all five things on that list pretty much essential and have all been things I've sorely missed after about 90 levels stuffed into a tank-specced Jedi Guardian.

Can I make do without them? Sure, and I have. It's sure as hell not fun, though, and it makes figuring out how to be a better player a lot more of a chore than it needs to be.
Someone else gets it!

Poor UI makes tanking more difficult than it needs to be = even less people tanking = good luck putting together a PUG (either as a DPS being unable to find a tank, or even as a tank having to deal with idiot DPS going full burn, pulling aggro and then bitching about 'fail tank' and dropping group). At least you should be able to quickly queue up replacements in the dungeon find....oh, wait.

WoW has all that UI stuff and has made holding aggro essentially effortless and they still have to bribe people into tanking PUGs. I wonder how many people will still claim that they don't need all those tools when at L50 they're fruitlessly sat LFG for hours on end in the fleet?


E: PvP assist trains? Who gives a fuck? The sooner people finally realise that PvP in DIKU-types is always going to be. at best. a sideshow then the better off everyone will be.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on December 11, 2011, 03:51:29 AM
I'm always a little surprised at how other tanks are so adamant about needing a threat meter. I only installed one for other people, I literally never looked at mine in all the years I tanked for Slap in the Derp. I mean, nowadays, you don't need one AT ALL in WoW, but even back in TBC I completely ignored it. On all my characters, I just KNEW when my hunter should probably FD without Omen shrieking at me to do it, shit like that.

I don't think threat meters are for tanks as much as DPS. And if you are trying to optimize your DPS it can easily become a question of how close you can cut to the aggro of the tank. So a threat meter allowed average players to come closer to elite players in terms of doing more DPS and causing fewer wipes. It's part of making raiding more accessible without trivializing it for the elite.

Mind you, I think the whole system is repulsive and an un-enticing end game. But if SWTOR is pretty much going to present exactly the same form of end-game it should be looking carefully at and considering WoW's discoveries and outcomes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 11, 2011, 04:28:13 AM
Poor UI makes tanking more difficult than it needs to be = even less people tanking = good luck putting together a PUG (either as a DPS being unable to find a tank, or even as a tank having to deal with idiot DPS going full burn, pulling aggro and then bitching about 'fail tank' and dropping group). At least you should be able to quickly queue up replacements in the dungeon find....oh, wait.
For me, all these UI crutches make tanking less fun.  I use Sjofn and Nevermore's methods.

It's not like ranged mobs are new, either, so replace blaster with caster and shut them down or draw their attention.  Cripes, the first flashpoint bosses require more thinking than most WoW leveling dungeons for a tank, and I never had a group that couldn't understand the fight after a thirty second explaination.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 11, 2011, 05:47:27 AM
Seriously, the way some of you talk about the UI it sounds like it raped your eyeballs.

It's not always a problem with the UI itself.  Sometimes it can be something like you are watching the UI instead of playing the game.   That's not a problem with the UI per se but it is a problem that mods can easily solve.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 11, 2011, 06:44:19 AM
None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.

Well, usually I don't post when drunk, because, well...
BUT
I don't want to pass up the opportunity to tell the "We need those tools" people that you are wrong.
Are you playing Skyrim with a combat log?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 11, 2011, 06:46:32 AM
That's a terrible analogy and you'll realize it when you're sober.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: calapine on December 11, 2011, 06:53:08 AM
No, it's not. All those things break the 4th wall (I think thats the term.)

Edit: I dare you to prove me wrong.  :drillf:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ghambit on December 11, 2011, 06:56:57 AM
I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Arinon on December 11, 2011, 09:22:06 AM
I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.

I agree, but I never understood why threat is always just assigned as the tank's responsibility by both the community and most devs.  It should be the job of DPS.  They generally don't have as much shit to do so make them responsible for keeping threat under control.  Take threat out of the hands of tanks by making it basically a flat line for them somehow.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 11, 2011, 09:33:05 AM
It's not always a problem with the UI itself.  Sometimes it can be something like you are watching the UI instead of playing the game.   That's not a problem with the UI per se but it is a problem that mods can easily solve.
If the actual problem is you play the UI rather than the game outside it i don't think it's really something 'mods can easily solve' unless you make mods that basically play that game themselves. But i'd say that's not solving anything but just replacing one problem with another.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 11, 2011, 09:35:18 AM
None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.

Well, usually I don't post when drunk, because, well...
BUT
I don't want to pass up the opportunity to tell the "We need those tools" people that you are wrong.
Are you playing Skyrim with a combat log?

Actually, quite a few people play skyrim with all the numbers known ;) It breaks the fourth wall, but it's useful to know that your crafted heavy armor set you twinked the fuck out is actually 400% past the hard armor cap that isn't displayed anywhere. Skyrim is a great example of why exposing the game mechanics is a GOOD thing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 11, 2011, 09:38:27 AM
I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.

Threat in general makes no sense, so there's no reason to try and model it in to me. "I am the biggest armored, hardest to kill target here. Now find a logical reason why you'd shoot ME instead of all the high damage or healing dangerous targets nearby"

If anything, the way to model threat would be "this heavy armor target will deal crazy damage if you don't keep interrupting him, so focus his ass down even if he is hard to kill", but that would be exploitable as hell by just bringing multiple 'tanks'


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 10:41:40 AM
Poor UI makes tanking more difficult than it needs to be = even less people tanking = good luck putting together a PUG (either as a DPS being unable to find a tank, or even as a tank having to deal with idiot DPS going full burn, pulling aggro and then bitching about 'fail tank' and dropping group). At least you should be able to quickly queue up replacements in the dungeon find....oh, wait.

I have never had a DPSer ditch my "failtank" ass because they pulled aggro. I have tanked a lot of fucking PUGs. You know why they don't drop? Either they know it was their own fault (indicated by a "lol my bad") or because they know they are easily replaced, even without a dungeonfinder, and THEY will have a harder time finding a group. Saying "you tanks will RUE THE DAY" is hilariously wrongheaded. Fuck, I could replace a stupid DPSer with my fucking companion if I had to.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 11, 2011, 10:51:10 AM
I've always thought of threat in sci-fi to be a given and something that should be metaed into the game.  I mean, we've already got energy, heat, force, etc. all with differing mitigation mechanics.  Why not add threat as well?  It'd give something else for the tanks to play with.

I agree, but I never understood why threat is always just assigned as the tank's responsibility by both the community and most devs.  It should be the job of DPS.  They generally don't have as much shit to do so make them responsible for keeping threat under control.  Take threat out of the hands of tanks by making it basically a flat line for them somehow.

IIRC this is basically how it was done in BC-era WoW.  Tanks produced a baseline threat and DPS could spike over it at times, meaning they'd have to watch and throttle themselves if they got a string of crits or were hovering close to the line and didn't have a dump. Rather than give all the DPS threat dumps a-la Vanish and Feign Death, this model was deemed "unfun" and tanks were given more damage ability so they could ramp-up their threat along with the ever-increasing powers of the DPS characters.

No, it's not. All those things break the 4th wall (I think thats the term.)

Edit: I dare you to prove me wrong.  :drillf:

Yes, the metagame.  MMOs are almost 90% metagame at the "endgame" scenario.  So you can provide that information to your players, letting them pour over it and find flaws in your system; or you can try and hide it and watch them argue over it for years (like EQ1)

Skyrim is a horrible analogy on many levels.

1) It's a single player game so you don't care as much about balance or overpowered builds.  There's no competition for content, you can consume at your own pace and never need to interact with others and know that you're "playing wrong."  Why? Because there's an additional level of obscurity in having to only present information to the lone player.     Players that don't meta that shit never know they weren't doing things optimally or that they were over the hard armor cap.  They're enjoying "shit my dude looks like a badass and I'm tearing through xyz."  

2) Single player games have an end.  You resolve the game and are done. You have no need for continued content and analysis of how things are performing after you've completed the story.  Did you beat the baddie? Yes? Great, what you did worked and you can move on.  

3) Single player games are... single player.  As I mentioned in the first point you don't have any cooperative situations.  Nobody's bitching at you because they're tearing  through dragons with three shots while you're struggling to kill them because you focused on the wrong things.  As soon as you introduce that you need the tools to help people understand how to play better, because those that don't learn are playing alone and then move on to not playing.  

4) MMOs want and NEED you to keep paying.  This isn't a F2P enterprise it's a monthly sub.  Players that get told the suck or find they DO suck stop playing a game.  As a single player game you really don't care because you've got all the money you were going to get. (Well, prior to the DLC of modern games.)   As a MMO that means a hell of a lot more because you're all about the bottom line.  


Hell, a better analogy would have been Starcraft II if it hid numbers. But it doesn't.. because it's not Single Player.  Do you think Diablo III will be hiding numbers?  Your reasoning says there's no reason for them to be shown, but I say because there's a multiplayer component it's mandatory TO show them.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 11, 2011, 11:04:32 AM
I'm not saying I need Omen or Recount or whatever; what I'd like is a UI with the same basic functionality as WoW's base UI. It's still not perfect, but it conveys 90% of the useful information you need. Shit, default WoW UI does threat with colors so you have an indication of what mobs are close to peeling off. I'd like at least that.

The raid-frames introduced in Cataclysm are basically what CTRaid was literally 5 years ago, but that's good enough. The SWTOR default UI doesn't quite cut it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 11, 2011, 11:44:59 AM
I'll just go with playing the game and having fun, not worrying about all that bullshit. I think it tends to ruin the fun. Are you all accountants or something?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 11, 2011, 11:45:16 AM
I just dont want to have to target my heal target, hope I target the right mob to shoot, shoot once, target another player heal them ad nauseam. That's just clicking all over the place.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 11, 2011, 12:05:12 PM
I'll just go with playing the game and having fun, not worrying about all that bullshit. I think it tends to ruin the fun. Are you all accountants or something?

For me it has very little to do with optimization.  I like being able to click-cast as a healer.  I like being able to see important buffs and debuffs and their durations more easily than the default interface provides.  I don't like that they waste a lot of room on art while not providing me with enough buttons in non-idiotic places.  All of these are about enjoying the game (and not having to squint or fight with the interface).

I'm perfectly willing to take games on their own terms if they state them, and not every game needs to be as customizable as World of Warcraft, but, I do think one of these three needs to happen:

1) "This is the interface we want everyone to play with, get bent."
2) An interface that can have all its parts toggled and moved.
3) A heavily moddable interface.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 11, 2011, 01:14:15 PM
I'll just go with playing the game and having fun, not worrying about all that bullshit. I think it tends to ruin the fun. Are you all accountants or something?

No, I'm an IT Techie. I dislike when things try and hide data from me :P

I mean, I don't NEED SAR data to run a datacenter, but it sure as fuck makes the whole thing less trial and error.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on December 11, 2011, 01:34:46 PM
I'm against spreadsheeting as well.  Fuck a bunch of meters, I just want to play the game. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 11, 2011, 02:18:02 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
That's the thing, once it's in everyone has to use it, things start getting balanced toward it, and the game just gets less fun.

If you love WoW so much, go play WoW imo.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 11, 2011, 02:58:12 PM
If the actual problem is you play the UI rather than the game outside it i don't think it's really something 'mods can easily solve' unless you make mods that basically play that game themselves.

No I'm not talking about playing the UI.  I'm talking about nonsense like watching your icon bar waiting for X to proc/etc.    That sort of thing is a flaw in character design to me but you can at least make it palatable with proper scrolling combat text or some such.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 11, 2011, 03:41:12 PM
No I'm not talking about playing the UI.  I'm talking about nonsense like watching your icon bar waiting for X to proc/etc.    That sort of thing is a flaw in character design to me but you can at least make it palatable with proper scrolling combat text or some such.
But then it's what i meant -- your gameplay is to focus on the UI cue(s). A mod which changes the UI doesn't change that, it can at best either change what exact sort of cue you're waiting for which doesn't really change how you play the game, or to automate your reaction to the cue to remove the need to watch for it... but then that aspect of the gameplay is well, removed.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Thrawn on December 11, 2011, 03:41:46 PM
Can we just get a separate thread for people to bitch about the same UI arguments over and over in?  Nothing new is ever really added to it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 11, 2011, 05:19:54 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
That's the thing, once it's in everyone has to use it, things start getting balanced toward it, and the game just gets less fun.

If you love WoW so much, go play WoW imo.

They are, they're just going to be playing it...in space.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 11, 2011, 05:27:20 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
You act like people aren't going to spreadsheet the game anyway and the game isn't going to be designed around that spreadsheeting. Looking at the raid content spoilers so far outside of like one "lootship" fight it's pretty standard DIKU stuff; threat management, LOS, add control, burn/healing phases, etc. Now you get to do that with a UI that offers very little help.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on December 11, 2011, 05:47:23 PM
IIRC this is basically how it was done in BC-era WoW.  Tanks produced a baseline threat and DPS could spike over it at times, meaning they'd have to watch and throttle themselves if they got a string of crits or were hovering close to the line and didn't have a dump. Rather than give all the DPS threat dumps a-la Vanish and Feign Death, this model was deemed "unfun" and tanks were given more damage ability so they could ramp-up their threat along with the ever-increasing powers of the DPS characters.

Pretty sure they changed it because it was boring as batshit to be a tank, thus there weren't enough of them.

So they added more tanks to the game with TBC (making Bears and Paladins get there slowly - even putting in some end game stuff where they were more suited) and made their playstyles a bit more fun, in order to address a lack of tanking characters in the game.

Had nothing to do with threat, really.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: UnSub on December 11, 2011, 06:25:54 PM
The spreadsheeters will be the ones telling BioWare Austin their game mechanics don't work like they think they do.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2011, 07:50:05 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
You act like people aren't going to spreadsheet the game anyway and the game isn't going to be designed around that spreadsheeting. Looking at the raid content spoilers so far outside of like one "lootship" fight it's pretty standard DIKU stuff; threat management, LOS, add control, burn/healing phases, etc. Now you get to do that with a UI that offers very little help.

Not everyone will spreadsheet. Some will, but they will be making educated guesses. That's fine, I have no problem with motivated people trying to decipher the system. What I don't want is every dps running with a meter on their screen. Or the developers designing fights around the assumption that people are running mods. If people can create meters without a combat log, then my point is moot. If they can't, then I say never give that to them ever.

In the beginning, Blizzard always said they weren't running things around mods. They were lying. They were lying so much that they started to put the mods into their base UI. Then, they kept designing around them. At some point it becomes a ridiculous arms race sort of like how they had to break decursive when it was trivializing their mechanics.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 08:01:10 PM
I'll just go with playing the game and having fun, not worrying about all that bullshit. I think it tends to ruin the fun. Are you all accountants or something?

I am hardly a damn "spreadsheeter," and think some of the things people want are pointless, but I'm not going to cry if they put that shit in. Hiding information is silly. It's just not that big a fucking deal.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 11, 2011, 08:06:24 PM
None of those things require you to poopsock to be useful.

Well, usually I don't post when drunk, because, well...
BUT
I don't want to pass up the opportunity to tell the "We need those tools" people that you are wrong.
Are you playing Skyrim with a combat log?

Nobody else is depending on me to be competent and not waste their time in Skyrim.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2011, 08:14:32 PM
I'll just go with playing the game and having fun, not worrying about all that bullshit. I think it tends to ruin the fun. Are you all accountants or something?

I am hardly a damn "spreadsheeter," and think some of the things people want are pointless, but I'm not going to cry if they put that shit in. Hiding information is silly. It's just not that big a fucking deal.

I disagree with the point that hiding information is silly. I think it's one of those POV debatable things.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 11, 2011, 08:15:23 PM
Yeah by all means, tell me to choose between two things but don't tell me what they do mechanically. That's great gameplay.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 11, 2011, 08:48:32 PM
In the beginning, Blizzard always said they weren't running things around mods. They were lying. They were lying so much that they started to put the mods into their base UI. Then, they kept designing around them. At some point it becomes a ridiculous arms race sort of like how they had to break decursive when it was trivializing their mechanics.

I think it went the other way around. They were building SHIT raid encounters that caused the mod scene to explode. Decursive was not a reaction to "I'm a lazy healer", it was a reaction to the single worst raid encounter I've ever seen in a game.

I've yet to see an encounter built around Healbot/Vuhdo or any of the healing UIs. I've never actually seen one based around anything but maybe Omen, and even then it's that the encounter involves a threat dump on the tank at regular intervals. I want to say they've moved away from that stupid mechanic as well.

The reason the UIs were moved into the base UI wasn't "we balance around you having these", it's that "these make the base game better, so instead of making new players figure this shit out, let's give it to everyone as part of the base package". It's like insisting Airbags are now in all cars because manufacturers intend for you to get into accidents. They're just a good freaking improvement.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 11, 2011, 09:24:22 PM
The reason the UIs were moved into the base UI wasn't "we balance around you having these", it's that "these make the base game better, so instead of making new players figure this shit out, let's give it to everyone as part of the base package". It's like insisting Airbags are now in all cars because manufacturers intend for you to get into accidents. They're just a good freaking improvement.

I'm sure that was their intent. The reaction is usually WAY different from the playerbase than what the developers intended.

I do believe that Blizzard balances their raids around people using Boss Mods, for example. Or mods that scream DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE! at players.




Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Arinon on December 11, 2011, 09:41:11 PM
Yeah by all means, tell me to choose between two things but don't tell me what they do mechanically. That's great gameplay.  :oh_i_see:

I think there is happy medium between this skill does "high damage" and this skill does 400 + 2.8 (Prime Stat) damage with a 20% chance of (Secondary Stat) extra damage with a total threat modifier of 120% or whatever amount of behind the curtain information people feel they need to keep up with the Jones's.  Ideally I'd like the knowledge of what skills are good in which situations to come from trying shit out and gauging the results in a qualitative manner rather than with a calculator.  (Total pipe dream but whatever.)  I can see the other side but I agree with the monkey.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 11, 2011, 09:52:53 PM
The reason the UIs were moved into the base UI wasn't "we balance around you having these", it's that "these make the base game better, so instead of making new players figure this shit out, let's give it to everyone as part of the base package". It's like insisting Airbags are now in all cars because manufacturers intend for you to get into accidents. They're just a good freaking improvement.

I'm sure that was their intent. The reaction is usually WAY different from the playerbase than what the developers intended.

I do believe that Blizzard balances their raids around people using Boss Mods, for example. Or mods that scream DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE! at players.

Contemporary normal modes?  No, I don't believe that's the case in the least.  (And it's really not the case for Raid Finder difficulty.)

I think most contemporary heroic mode strategies are built around having timers up for specific abilities.  That said, the strategies that are in widespread use aren't necessarily the ones that Blizzard intended to be used in the first place (e.g. low Scorpion Heroic Majordomo Staghelm, triangle formation for Magma Geyser on Heroic Ragnaros).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 10:09:50 PM
The reason the UIs were moved into the base UI wasn't "we balance around you having these", it's that "these make the base game better, so instead of making new players figure this shit out, let's give it to everyone as part of the base package". It's like insisting Airbags are now in all cars because manufacturers intend for you to get into accidents. They're just a good freaking improvement.

I'm sure that was their intent. The reaction is usually WAY different from the playerbase than what the developers intended.

I do believe that Blizzard balances their raids around people using Boss Mods, for example. Or mods that scream DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE! at players.

Given "boss mods" have been in the default UI since WotLK (I did the first few tiers of that with no boss mod at all without a problem, I think I finally installed one for ICC just for appearance's sake), they probably do now, yes. I don't see it as a problem, since it's in the default UI now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 11, 2011, 10:20:31 PM
Hiding information just means hiding shitty game balance to me these days. That's what DaoC taught me again and again. Never mind the god damned doublefrost math, their own fucking tooltips of 'high/med/low damage' did not actually match up to anything in the games reality.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 11, 2011, 10:34:31 PM
There's cases where hiding some info would be nothing but mercy. Let me believe a perk i select does something cool rather than increase my resistance to fart damage by 0.1%


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 11, 2011, 10:35:35 PM
Hiding information just means hiding shitty game balance to me these days. That's what DaoC taught me again and again. Never mind the god damned doublefrost math, their own fucking tooltips of 'high/med/low damage' did not actually match up to anything in the games reality.

Yes, this. DAOC is what soured me entirely on non-fully-documented mechanics.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 11, 2011, 10:50:49 PM
You guys must have missed the Mud era... damage back then was all in words.  It was ALL CAPS when you did the big damage. 

You EVISCERATE the hill giant!   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 11, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
I did, I assure you Sjofn and Ingmar did not  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rasix on December 11, 2011, 10:52:13 PM
You guys must have missed the Mud era... damage back then was all in words.  It was ALL CAPS when you did the big damage. 

You EVISCERATE the hill giant!   :why_so_serious:

My MUD of choice gave the damage too.  Plus it put that shit in color with some badass ASCII around it.  My thief was a rainbow death machine.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 11:00:04 PM
You guys must have missed the Mud era... damage back then was all in words.  It was ALL CAPS when you did the big damage.  

You EVISCERATE the hill giant!   :why_so_serious:

My MUD of choice gave the damage too.  Plus it put that shit in color with some badass ASCII around it.  My thief was a rainbow death machine.

We didn't have the ASCII but it would give us numbers, yeah. I think. Now I'm not sure! I know I knew my health and mana at all times, obviously, and had to specifically look at whatever I was killing to see if it was "badly hurt" or whatever, but I can't remember if it gave numbers for my damage. I know you just had to Know what was a good weapon or armor, though. Which was dumb, looking back.

I miss Ancient Anguish a teeny bit, even though I am positive I couldn't tolerate playing it today. It's where I first tanked for anyone. <sniff> Of course, the healers (the CLERICS) tanked because it was a billion times easier to do it that way. The other three people in your party (the "bashers") were basically your health potion mules.  :why_so_serious:


EDIT: Haha, I totally logged in (I remembered my password :O) and nope, no damage numbers (beyond seeing your own health drop). And I could still find my guild headquarters, how exciting! And I still have a mail from Ingmar. It was back when he still found me novel. <sniffle>


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 11, 2011, 11:35:35 PM
That'll be a buck fitty for the trip down memory lane.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 11, 2011, 11:41:05 PM
What terrifies me is a) there were people who remembered me logged in, even though I haven't logged in for five or six years, b) they were actually excited to see me, and c) that I remembered how to get to my old guildhall in the middle of fucking nowhere.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 12, 2011, 12:10:53 AM
Hiding information just means hiding shitty game balance to me these days. That's what DaoC taught me again and again. Never mind the god damned doublefrost math, their own fucking tooltips of 'high/med/low damage' did not actually match up to anything in the games reality.

Yes, this. DAOC is what soured me entirely on non-fully-documented mechanics.

Yes, but look what happened when they TOLD you that you couldn't have Evade I.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Zetor on December 12, 2011, 12:24:16 AM
My MUD (Pandora's Box, running modded ROM/Merc) also showed damage numbers, but it was turned off by default... of course one of the first things everyone did was turn it on. You also had various text effects to go with the damage, so it ran the gamut from 'maims' to 'MUTILATES' to '*** OBLITERATES ***' to '>>> ANNIHILATES <<<' to '<<< ERADICATES >>> topping off with 'does UNSPEAKABLE things to'. Yes, I still remember this.

Random aside related to the current 'UI ezmode' talk: In the aforementioned MUD basically everyone had the ability to walk through doors ('pass door' ability iirc), and it was completely normal to walk through doors in zones as if they hadn't existed. If you could NOT walk through a particular door because it had the no_pass flag, everyone assumed it to be locked (with the key mob somewhere nearby, of course).
I made a huge zone in that MUD that had an optional 'challenge' section consisting of 6 sequential rooms with some puzzles/fights in them. The third room was called 'Test of Wisdom' and its only exit was a closed (not locked) door that had the no_pass flag. It also had very extensive descriptions of various items in the rooms (like key templates, a locksmith's table, books about locksmithing, etc) that were all red herrings and lead nowhere. I received many angry tells from people trying to get past that door... I'm sure there's a moral in here somewhere, other than me being a jackass. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 12, 2011, 03:55:12 AM
I swear the mod/UI discussion is exactly the same, as the one in the old thread about page 80 or something. Same people, same arguments  :uhrr:

Apparently one of the top top WoW guilds - germans For the Horde (top 10 world since BC) is moving over to play SWTOR. Just throwing a random tidbit out there.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on December 12, 2011, 04:16:41 AM
Ugh, you definitely lost me at threat meters. Playing DPS is brain dead enough. Figuring out how to throttle your DPS is the only part of a DPS that can't be played by a macro program and a roll of quarters. Threat meters are the start of an entire world of playing the UI rather than playing the game.

I'm a healer. Click casting is great. Making the information obvious is great. The UI being programmed to show me exactly when the min/max HPS and mana efficiency makes casting a group heal better than single heals and then showing me the target(s) for the group heal anchor--that's the UI playing the game not me.

If you want to make it easier to find tanks, go back to EQ/2s 6 person groups or DAOC's 8 person groups. Contemplate SWTOR's design: there will be one tank and one healer for every 2 DPS.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2011, 05:35:49 AM
You guys must have missed the Mud era... damage back then was all in words.  It was ALL CAPS when you did the big damage. 

You EVISCERATE the hill giant!   :why_so_serious:

My MUD of choice gave the damage too.  Plus it put that shit in color with some badass ASCII around it.  My thief was a rainbow death machine.

Ditto on both of those.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 12, 2011, 06:04:53 AM
See the thing is threat and threat meters are something that's largely irrelevent and has been throughout most of wotlk and cata. Yes, threat mattered for a tiny bit in the first tier of cataclysm, but that's long gone. Even then, it only mattered for the first 30seconds of the fight anyway. You're under the impression you have to throttle your DPS as a damage dealer and that's not the case ever. You go all out all the time, always. How do I know? It's knowledge acumulated via a threat addon. Without something calculating exact threat and exact tps, you will never know if you are the problem, or your tank isn't that good. Or on the tank side they don't know if they're doing good and when they can hold off on their threat generating buttons and start pressing their utility buttons. It's information that I can use - as a tank more than as dps. It's information that helps me make informed decisions about what to press next. The absense of a threat meter is in my way, the existence of one is in not in yours. What was the argument again?

Oh and you're under the impression that healers in top guilds are min/maxers. Yes they still have to respect gameplay mechanics, but healing is more of a feel thing as much at the highest level as it is on the lowest. It's a decision making process at all times, what heal do I press and on whom. On the other hand when you have literally tens of thousands of healers that are used to mouse-over healing, why not have it in the game? It doesn't affect you if it's there, it does affect them if it's not. What was the argument again?

And that's the whole thing, the existence of addons doesn't affect your gameplay. Someone (Paelos probably) said that raids in wow are designed so you have a raid addon, and that's not true. Maybe you need DBM or BigWigs because you get panicy and you don't notice the more subtle clues the default UI gives you. That doesn't make them not there.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on December 12, 2011, 06:22:17 AM
Quote
And that's the whole thing, the existence of addons doesn't affect your gameplay. Someone (Paelos probably) said that raids in wow are designed so you have a raid addon, and that's not true.

I am firmly convinced based on the differences between EQ2 and WoW raiding that add ons affect the design process. How could they not? WoW raiding is full of gimmicks like the dances because they can't make it so gameplay is the determinant because most people's gameplay is 100% due to add ons.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 12, 2011, 06:29:34 AM
The dance is from really really early in the raid scene. It was a gimmick not because "lol you have addons", but a laugh of a fight where something other than your combat skill would determine the outcome. Consider it an RP fight.

I can't think of any boss that was designed with addons in mind. I can think of a few that caused addons to be created (MC's decursing, a few bosses that did X on Y timer with no real callouts spawned DBM and it's ilk). Decursive was fixed up by making the base raid UI show debuffs you could cleanse better, and DBM became kind of useless as the devs decided bosses that do X on Y timer should do a /yell or something to let players know.

In pretty much every raid required addon that I can think of, they were player responses to really shitty encounter design. Hell, Omen was raid required only in the sense that certain fights required someone to be #2 or #3 on threat to eat some ability, so it was no longer enough to just let the tank win threat.

And no, Recount is not a raid required addon. :P


SO ANYWAY: ABOUT THAT HEAD START TOMORROW!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: amiable on December 12, 2011, 06:32:28 AM
Quote
And that's the whole thing, the existence of addons doesn't affect your gameplay. Someone (Paelos probably) said that raids in wow are designed so you have a raid addon, and that's not true.

I am firmly convinced based on the differences between EQ2 and WoW raiding that add ons affect the design process. How could they not? WoW raiding is full of gimmicks like the dances because they can't make it so gameplay is the determinant because most people's gameplay is 100% due to add ons.

Pretty much this.  LOTRO dungeon design was very gameplay specific, something that would have been trivialized witht he addition of addons.  I think it really was to their credit as LOTRO dungeons were incredibly fun but doable by a large part f the player base, while still being relatively challenging.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 12, 2011, 06:52:23 AM
No dungeon finder because it stops the sense of exploration?

Dungeon finders detach dungeons from a sense of location in the world. Its no longer the fabled dungeon in area XYZ under the mountain surrounded by citizens with stories of its legend, its a drop down option.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 12, 2011, 07:10:28 AM
or it's that gameplay option in my DIKU that allows me to gear my paladin's healing off-spec over a weekend without tying down 4 of my friends to essentially boosting my ass all weekend long.

It's working. LFR is working. People are expecting those features. Once again - it's not something you're made to use. If you want to - knock yourself out, discover all the dungeons. Don't force me to waste my limited playtime on getting a group together for what is essentially a mephisto run or 20. WoW had the silly idea to make you go find the entrance of a dungeon before you queue through LFD, they dropped that in under two months.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 12, 2011, 07:20:19 AM
I'd love heroic instance concepts rolled into SWTOR, actually. The idea of "play this instance again at level cap", just because it annoys me where there is an awesome dungeon in the leveling path that you will never see again. And once the game gets some age on it, nobody will ever see beyond someone having their level capped friend run their alt through it..

LFD didn't change my life much at level cap (though it made it so I didn't have to hang out in the hell that was trade chat), but it made leveling dungeons actually get done.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 12, 2011, 07:20:28 AM
SWTOR may fare a bit better than WoW did without LFD, at least for a little while because as far as I know all the Flashpoints are started from the fleet rather than some random-ass dungeon entrance squirreled away in a corner of a zone no one goes to like most of Vanilla WoW's 5-mans.

Quote
I'd love heroic instance concepts rolled into SWTOR, actually. The idea of "play this instance again at level cap", just because it annoys me where there is an awesome dungeon in the leveling path that you will never see again. And once the game gets some age on it, nobody will ever see beyond someone having their level capped friend run their alt through it..

LFD didn't change my life much at level cap (though it made it so I didn't have to hang out in the hell that was trade chat), but it made leveling dungeons actually get done.
As far as I know "heroic" modes will be available for all flashpoints. I dunno how dramatically different they are however in difficulty or if they have extra bosses/etc.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 12, 2011, 07:21:43 AM
allows me to gear my paladin's healing off-spec over a weekend without tying down 4 of my friends to essentially boosting my ass all weekend long.

I can see how that thinking would be opposed if you view dungeons as a way to power level, or that is your main goal in "playing" the game.  Also, don't confuse the lack of a Dungeon finder, as a lack of a LFG tool. Two different things, and one contains the other.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 12, 2011, 07:28:31 AM
SWTOR may fare a bit better than WoW did without LFD, at least for a little while because as far as I know all the Flashpoints are started from the fleet rather than some random-ass dungeon entrance squirreled away in a corner of a zone no one goes to like most of Vanilla WoW's 5-mans.

Quote
I'd love heroic instance concepts rolled into SWTOR, actually. The idea of "play this instance again at level cap", just because it annoys me where there is an awesome dungeon in the leveling path that you will never see again. And once the game gets some age on it, nobody will ever see beyond someone having their level capped friend run their alt through it..

LFD didn't change my life much at level cap (though it made it so I didn't have to hang out in the hell that was trade chat), but it made leveling dungeons actually get done.
As far as I know "heroic" modes will be available for all flashpoints. I dunno how dramatically different they are however in difficulty or if they have extra bosses/etc.

Hardmodes, from what I've heard from the devs, have nothing extra in them.  They are just harder for max level peeps.

Regarding the UI discussion: When I was playing a level 50 Sage, there were quite a few procs I had to watch out for.  Things like making a long cast spell instant cast, or cast speed increases.  I can't remember exactly.  The real shitter was that the buff icons were so tiny and at the bottom of the screen, it made playing the game incredibly difficult because I had to stare a small portion of my screen.

This is why you need mods.  I need that shit popping up in front of my eyes in the middle of the screen.  Or at least give me a last graphic that I can react to, but don't make me stare at a small icon at the bottom of my screen.  Ugh.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 12, 2011, 07:35:15 AM
That's not something you need a mod to fix, that can be done in the vanilla GUI. However your example does give you an advantage if you have that mod, and others do not. Same with heal bars, and Effect timers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nebu on December 12, 2011, 07:37:15 AM
That's not something you need a mod to fix, that can be done in the vanilla GUI. However your example does give you an advantage if you have that mod, and others do not. Same with heal bars, and Effect timers.

This is precisely why I don't like mods.  Those that have them, know where to get them, and know how to maximize their use will have a large advantage.  Give everyone the same UI in game and see who can work the best with it.  It levels the playing field. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Zetor on December 12, 2011, 07:39:58 AM
You also get an advantage others don't if you're using a G15 keyboard with multi-hotkey macros, some kind of gaming mouse with programmable side buttons, dual monitors so you can keep torhead running for the current questline, random third-party programs (not cheating programs obv.) that parse the combat log and put meters / cooldowns / stats onscreen even if the game doesn't support it normally (look up HeroStats from COH), etc. The difference is, everyone can get a mod.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 12, 2011, 07:46:18 AM
That's outside the game development. You could also argue that someone having more ram is an advantage, and it would be just as retarded. Personality in a PvE game, I could give a shit. There is no competition, but in PvP games I care. I believe there is a reason that most competitive games ( Video or not ) have rules and regulations for competition, from the shorts you have on, to the machine you run the game on.

There is an argument for "fixing" a UI, but most requests and reasons for modding go well beyond simple maintenance and useability. Consider 80% of a MMO "game" is "playing" the GUI.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Zetor on December 12, 2011, 07:49:11 AM
Except those 'retarded' advantages are the same advantages provided by some of the most important mods. Have you checked out HeroStats (http://www.herostats.org/images/screenshots/v3.0.0/action-shot.png)?

edit: just to make it a bit more obvious
G15/mouse: priority-cast macros even if the game doesn't support them normally, bar mods (this one is not as 'important', granted)
second monitor: Quest mods such as TomTom / Lightheaded / Carbonite. Same thing if you're using a levelling guide I guess.
HeroStats (COH UI is not moddable, remember): damage meters (!), buff/debuff timers, rotation helpers, stats, incoming damage parser...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 12, 2011, 08:21:19 AM
You also get an advantage others don't if you're using a G15 keyboard with multi-hotkey macros, some kind of gaming mouse with programmable side buttons, dual monitors so you can keep torhead running for the current questline, random third-party programs (not cheating programs obv.) that parse the combat log and put meters / cooldowns / stats onscreen even if the game doesn't support it normally (look up HeroStats from COH), etc. The difference is, everyone can get a mod.
You really think putting all that together would be common enough to be an issue?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 12, 2011, 08:26:27 AM
allows me to gear my paladin's healing off-spec over a weekend without tying down 4 of my friends to essentially boosting my ass all weekend long.
I can see how that thinking would be opposed if you view dungeons as a way to power level, or that is your main goal in "playing" the game.  Also, don't confuse the lack of a Dungeon finder, as a lack of a LFG tool. Two different things, and one contains the other.

Didn't we already agree that SWTOR is WoW with lightsabres? And they're trying to compete with WoW? It doesn't matter how I play the game, it matters that I have an expectation to be able to play it in a way that is competitive on the market, lfd is now a market standard, people have to learn to live with it. LFG tools with no implemented matchmaking are a joke. Fun fact - did you know that WoW has had an ingame LFG tool for raids since wotlk? I dare you to find me one person that has gotten a PUG together using that tool. Lfr/lfd pull people from the entire battlegroup, not your server only. That's shortening the queue by looking for possible matches out of 50,000 people, instead of 5,000 (yes, made up the numbers dealwithit.gif). Also I did list myself as a healer for the second flashpoint on empire side. For the 3 hours I was listed, I got one whisper - "u tank?". Once again, I have X hours to play. In this time I want to do things that are not browsing a spreadsheet and whispering people if they can go do the dungeon they signed up for now - no not right now just in the middle of a quest, give me 10? I sign on LFD, and do stuff for 3-15mins - crafting, space pew missions, whatever, and when the game has done all the work for me I go do a dungeon with a PUG. You know, 2011 kind of stuff. Kinda like having an internet browser in my phone.

On your mods comment - it can be done via the GUI, but it's not. Blizzard have metrics on mods, and implement functionality based on the mods that are used. The things Draegan is talking about were not in vanilla wow, they got in at a later point because there were enough people using those mods. I prefer to fix my gameplay via fixing the UI, not "enjoy" fighting it. Again, it was said earlier on the topic that there are plenty of ways to limit what the mod can do to the interface. And as was said, my eu150 mechanical keyboard imported from Korea gives me a way bigger advantage than any mod ever could.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Zetor on December 12, 2011, 08:58:55 AM
You also get an advantage others don't if you're using a G15 keyboard with multi-hotkey macros, some kind of gaming mouse with programmable side buttons, dual monitors so you can keep torhead running for the current questline, random third-party programs (not cheating programs obv.) that parse the combat log and put meters / cooldowns / stats onscreen even if the game doesn't support it normally (look up HeroStats from COH), etc. The difference is, everyone can get a mod.
You really think putting all that together would be common enough to be an issue?
I wouldn't call it an "issue", but HeroStats is pretty omnipresent among COH min-maxers. Even if you aren't supporting mods and want to completely lock down the client, someone will write a (completely legal) app that overlays on your game screen and displays stats / meters / what-have-you.

Hands of the enemy, etc etc.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 12, 2011, 09:16:51 AM
You also get an advantage others don't if you're using a G15 keyboard with multi-hotkey macros, some kind of gaming mouse with programmable side buttons, dual monitors so you can keep torhead running for the current questline, random third-party programs (not cheating programs obv.) that parse the combat log and put meters / cooldowns / stats onscreen even if the game doesn't support it normally (look up HeroStats from COH), etc. The difference is, everyone can get a mod.
You really think putting all that together would be common enough to be an issue?
I wouldn't call it an "issue", but HeroStats is pretty omnipresent among COH min-maxers. Even if you aren't supporting mods and want to completely lock down the client, someone will write a (completely legal) app that overlays on your game screen and displays stats / meters / what-have-you.

Hands of the enemy, etc etc.

CoX also had a combat log which is where HeroStats pulled its data from.  Then the devs just went ahead and put in more stat transparency than I've ever seen in any MMO, which kind of made HeroStats pointless anyway unless you really just had to see your dps over a certain amount of time (which I think is the only thing you couldn't get from the in-game stats, but since this is CoX why anyone would really care is beyond me).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Numtini on December 12, 2011, 09:23:08 AM
I've never gotten a raid together with the LF-Raid tool (the old one), but I participated in more than a few raids that were filled out with the system and the LFG chat. And even more, on the order of hundreds, that were filled out by requesting people in the 70, 80, and 90 chats in EQ2 that were the defacto grouping tool.

For me the big problem with all the instant automatic groupings is I can't choose between grouping with Thorvald and WiCk3D0odzer and honestly, just that much was enough to really change my enjoyment of gameplay. I play to play with other people and the name and guild name can tell you an awful lot about people. So being able to review those people is a huge plus. There has to be some way to make finding a group easier and maintain that kind of thing. Just a review screen that lets a group leader decline people and members decline the group.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 12, 2011, 10:28:09 AM
Ugh. Number crunching past enough information to give me a sense of "do this" "not that" bores me. I always assume there is a random element anyway, so an approximation of effect is fine with me. Vague descriptions are fine with me as long as the result matches the language. If you tell me something is "slight" versus "decent" versus "large", I'd better be able to see that based on my experience, whether it's a health bar moving by different degrees, or a noticeable increase/decrease in attack or movement speed, etc.

But I'm pretty sure the scholarly literature shows that power gamers get nerdgazms by being able to tweak out gear and powers to within .003 certainty, thereby ensuring a steady subscriber base of 231,000 per month over a 6 year period. What? You've never heard the phrase "Data makes me moist?"


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: amiable on December 12, 2011, 11:04:21 AM


Didn't we already agree that SWTOR is WoW with lightsabres? And they're trying to compete with WoW? It doesn't matter how I play the game, it matters that I have an expectation to be able to play it in a way that is competitive on the market, lfd is now a market standard, people have to learn to live with it. LFG tools with no implemented matchmaking are a joke.

You are ignoring the fact that, with all of its annoyances, many folks preferred the system before LFG.  I know I did because:

1.  I actually got to know folks on my server, who was reliable, who was terrible, who ninja'd loot.  It made me feel like I was part of a community.  You couldn't just sign up, drop group for any old reason or being a raginf asshole.
2.  It created a greater sense of being part of a dynamic world (even thought travel times were never really longer than 5 minutes).

LFG served one purpose: it allowed shitty DPS soloers to find groups to get gear (albeit with a long lag time), but in the process it destroyed everything that added stickiness to WoW.   It basically stripped away any veneer that there was something to the game other than "acquire electronic foozles as fast as possible."  I think that is part of the reason WoW is now hemorrhaging subs.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ginaz on December 12, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
So someone I know ended up on a server called "Space Slug". :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 12, 2011, 11:12:27 AM
That must have been some meeting where they decided on the server name.  I'm assuming much drugs and alcohol was involved.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 12, 2011, 11:15:05 AM
Should have been space herpes.  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ginaz on December 12, 2011, 11:18:48 AM
I wish Space Slug had been selected for Bat Country. :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 12, 2011, 11:19:16 AM
Other guilds on Shien:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/search?shardName%5B%5D=he1067


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 12, 2011, 11:24:07 AM
Matchmaking seems sensible, but in a game lacking sidekicking, UI configuration, dualspecing, PQs, appearance tab, etc etc... I'd be happy enough with a simple lfg tool so they can get on with all the other basic shit missing from the game.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2011, 11:57:10 AM
Hm.. I can't decide if I want a Female BH or a Male BH for the voice acting.  Decisions like this used to be so cosmetic.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 12, 2011, 12:12:33 PM
Dungeon finders detach dungeons from a sense of location in the world. Its no longer the fabled dungeon in area XYZ under the mountain surrounded by citizens with stories of its legend, its a drop down option.
As opposed to airline terminal 1-6?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 12, 2011, 12:54:31 PM
But then it's what i meant -- your gameplay is to focus on the UI cue(s). A mod which changes the UI doesn't change that, it can at best either change what exact sort of cue you're waiting for which doesn't really change how you play the game,

It can definitely change how I play the game.   If the UI cue is in the middle of the screen then I'm playing the game instead of the UI.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 12, 2011, 01:38:18 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
You act like people aren't going to spreadsheet the game anyway and the game isn't going to be designed around that spreadsheeting. Looking at the raid content spoilers so far outside of like one "lootship" fight it's pretty standard DIKU stuff; threat management, LOS, add control, burn/healing phases, etc. Now you get to do that with a UI that offers very little help.

Not everyone will spreadsheet. Some will, but they will be making educated guesses.
Or they'll rip the raw data out of the guts of the game and put it up on spoiler sites before the game launches. (http://www.torhead.com/ability/a5PabPr) (click "Effect Details")
You know, either or.


e: whoops, fixed.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 12, 2011, 01:41:36 PM
That's not something you need a mod to fix, that can be done in the vanilla GUI. However your example does give you an advantage if you have that mod, and others do not. Same with heal bars, and Effect timers.

That's fine!  Either make a good interface, or let us make a suite of them for you.  The problem with the SWTOR interface is that it's neither good/useful nor customizable.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 12, 2011, 01:44:06 PM
Put my down for not wanting combat log, threat meters, or any of that other shit. This is coming from both a tank and a raid leader. It's just not needed and makes the game less fun when everyone starts spreadsheeting.
You act like people aren't going to spreadsheet the game anyway and the game isn't going to be designed around that spreadsheeting. Looking at the raid content spoilers so far outside of like one "lootship" fight it's pretty standard DIKU stuff; threat management, LOS, add control, burn/healing phases, etc. Now you get to do that with a UI that offers very little help.

Not everyone will spreadsheet. Some will, but they will be making educated guesses.
Or they'll rip the raw data out of the guts of the game and put it up on spoiler sites before the game launches. (http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/bls-20111212-unemploymentrate-2011.jpg) (click "Effect Details")
You know, either or.

I don't think you linked what you meant to link ;)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 12, 2011, 01:49:56 PM
I thought there was a mistake when it said there were 398 guilds registered for my server. 398!! Many of the guilds were listed as over 200 people. So I thought, maybe that's for the whole game, but not just one server.

Then I did a "refine your search" and got this result:

>> There are 6764 guilds matching: Republic Allegiance, PvE Type, English Language, US East (EST) Timezone.

I'm assuming an AND relationship between that criteria, since the choices are supposed to narrow the results.
 :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2011, 02:10:10 PM
SWTOR may fare a bit better than WoW did without LFD, at least for a little while because as far as I know all the Flashpoints are started from the fleet rather than some random-ass dungeon entrance squirreled away in a corner of a zone no one goes to like most of Vanilla WoW's 5-mans.

Quote
I'd love heroic instance concepts rolled into SWTOR, actually. The idea of "play this instance again at level cap", just because it annoys me where there is an awesome dungeon in the leveling path that you will never see again. And once the game gets some age on it, nobody will ever see beyond someone having their level capped friend run their alt through it..

LFD didn't change my life much at level cap (though it made it so I didn't have to hang out in the hell that was trade chat), but it made leveling dungeons actually get done.
As far as I know "heroic" modes will be available for all flashpoints. I dunno how dramatically different they are however in difficulty or if they have extra bosses/etc.


My concern would be that if you wanted to quest in between dungeon runs. There's quite a few folks that queue for LFR while solo questing. It's fine once people hit 50 and they are all AFK in the capital waiting anyways.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 12, 2011, 02:48:51 PM
Not everyone will spreadsheet. Some will, but they will be making educated guesses.
Or they'll rip the raw data out of the guts of the game and put it up on spoiler sites before the game launches. (http://www.torhead.com/ability/a5PabPr) (click "Effect Details")
You know, either or.

With a game this big they'll take it even further and build an entire program to simulate combat.   


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 12, 2011, 04:46:14 PM
Not everyone will spreadsheet. Some will, but they will be making educated guesses.
Or they'll rip the raw data out of the guts of the game and put it up on spoiler sites before the game launches. (http://www.torhead.com/ability/a5PabPr) (click "Effect Details")
You know, either or.

With a game this big they'll take it even further and build an entire program to simulate combat.   

You act like that matters. There's a huge difference to me with a bunch of people cranking numbers outside the game and allowing parsers into the game so people can stare at their constantly updated statistics.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ginaz on December 12, 2011, 05:10:02 PM
Other guilds on Shien:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/search?shardName%5B%5D=he1067

Looks like Bat Country is on the same server as the PC Gamer guild. :awesome_for_real:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/36325/pc-gamer-mint-imperials


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 12, 2011, 05:12:35 PM
Other guilds on Shien:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/search?shardName%5B%5D=he1067

Looks like Bat Country is on the same server as the PC Gamer guild. :awesome_for_real:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/36325/pc-gamer-mint-imperials

Uh, no?

Quote
Server: Nightmare Lands


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ginaz on December 12, 2011, 05:29:08 PM
Other guilds on Shien:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/search?shardName%5B%5D=he1067

Looks like Bat Country is on the same server as the PC Gamer guild. :awesome_for_real:

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/36325/pc-gamer-mint-imperials



Uh, no?

Quote
Server: Nightmare Lands

Sorry, was following the link and assumed it was for other guilds on Shien. :argh:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 12, 2011, 05:39:11 PM
You act like that matters. There's a huge difference to me with a bunch of people cranking numbers outside the game and allowing parsers into the game so people can stare at their constantly updated statistics.

In a game this popular people will get those stats no matter what.   If they're willing to write a combat simulator they'll certainly be willing to jack the combat info right out of the client's memory.   What you want is impossible so why torpedo a good UI in the mistaken hope that it will happen?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 12, 2011, 06:18:44 PM
Hah.  Queens of the Clone Age.

And a SWG reference... Servants of the Shrub [:drillf:]


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 12, 2011, 07:48:59 PM
I like a nice neat shrub, but I do avoid topiary.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Paelos on December 12, 2011, 08:38:26 PM
You act like that matters. There's a huge difference to me with a bunch of people cranking numbers outside the game and allowing parsers into the game so people can stare at their constantly updated statistics.

In a game this popular people will get those stats no matter what.   If they're willing to write a combat simulator they'll certainly be willing to jack the combat info right out of the client's memory.   What you want is impossible so why torpedo a good UI in the mistaken hope that it will happen?

Not have a combat log is not "torpedoing" a good UI. There are certain people who will hook electrodes to their genitals if they can get more dps. That doesn't mean it will become the norm. The crazies will be crazy, but my problem is when the crazy becomes mainstream because it's just so easy to download a meter and watch the numbers fly!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 12, 2011, 08:57:19 PM
Yeah man. RPM meters are the same thing. A few douchebags want some data and the next thing you know all cars have them. What the hell! :P

I really do consider in a mechanics heavy game that you show me some mechanics, just because without it data becomes folklore and mythology. "Man, X stat is better for you, you fucking noob!" *has no math to confirm nor deny this statement*

Really, a combat log is just historical retention of what's already on the screen. It's not like SWTOR hides it's damage numbers. A combat log just assigns a timestamp and historical retention to it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 12, 2011, 09:10:09 PM
Quickness improves runspeed, Kild!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2011, 09:16:08 PM
I still want to know how that guy became a TeamLead.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 12, 2011, 09:18:53 PM
I don't know, but given he wasn't my TL, I'm totally glad he was!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 12, 2011, 09:25:33 PM
Quickness improves runspeed, Kild!

I really think he was just an idiot, but he's a good example!

The man had EVIDENCE. He ran TESTS. They were all completely wrong and his methodology was shit, but still. I'm going to sit and snicker that I was a FORMIDABLE MELEE FIGHTER as well, even though that was out of game documentation.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 12, 2011, 09:30:55 PM
Yeah that's the perfect example of the sort of bullshit that is totally untrue, but can become accepted "fact" when there's no documentation or the documentation is bad.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2011, 10:45:35 PM
What's probably worse, is how Mythic thought Friars used Str for their staff attacks. Mythic was real special  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: trias_e on December 12, 2011, 11:00:06 PM
Quickness improves runspeed, Kild!

A class lead seriously thought this?  That's hilarious.  And disturbing.  And makes way too much sense.

What's probably worse, is how Mythic thought Friars used Str for their staff attacks. Mythic was real special  :oh_i_see:

I was a Friar.  Boy did I facepalm when Mythic realized their error (since we had our our str raise as we level), and then bandaided it by giving Friars a dex/qui self-buff that didn't stack with other buffs.  Thanks for fixing this fundamental mistake...by not actually fixing anything at all unless we were soloing.  Awesome.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 12, 2011, 11:18:00 PM
Mythic didn't figure out shit, a bunch of players went 'look retards, here is my character sheet with/without +str/+dex and here is my damage log'. In fact if it wasn't for the combat log, friars would still be trying to convince Mythic their staves used dex to this fucking day I imagine.



The Paladin TL was named Los_Ortiz or something like that? He lasted like a week, mostly because he went (or always was) insane. He went full retard and fought the entire internet that Quickness effected run speed.




Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on December 13, 2011, 01:10:46 AM
Yeah that's the perfect example of the sort of bullshit that is totally untrue, but can become accepted "fact" when there's no documentation or the documentation is bad.

That's more like an example of the kind of bullshit that happens when developers don't understand how their own game works.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: caladein on December 13, 2011, 01:45:44 AM
Which is surprisingly (hopefully not so much around these parts) common in this genre!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Velorath on December 13, 2011, 01:57:36 AM
Which is surprisingly (hopefully not so much around these parts) common in this genre!

I think if that were true people wouldn't be pulling out examples from 10 years ago to prove why we need combat logs today.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 13, 2011, 03:12:36 AM
Not have a combat log is not "torpedoing" a good UI.

Would you be ok with the log if it was delayed?  Like you could only get the info out of combat?  Or maybe if you could tell the server to not send combat log info on YOU to others?  I ask because the actual complaint seems to be "damn those people for looking at numbers" but I doubt that's the problem.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 13, 2011, 03:25:34 AM
Which is surprisingly (hopefully not so much around these parts) common in this genre!

I think if that were true people wouldn't be pulling out examples from 10 years ago to prove why we need combat logs today.

DAoC just happened to have the most hilarious example, I seem to recall a lot of handwave-y faith-based voodoo in CoX as well (before they realized the world won't end if they give players enough information to actually know wtf was going on in their game). I can't think of an example since then, because hiding everything from your players is no longer common because doing so is pointless and stupid.

Seriously, did I fall through a wormhole into Crazytown, with the added bonus of it being 10 years ago?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Surlyboi on December 13, 2011, 03:34:36 AM
Hah.  Queens of the Clone Age.

And a SWG reference... Servants of the Shrub [:drillf:]


Aww, I miss the shrub.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 13, 2011, 04:00:35 AM
Which is surprisingly (hopefully not so much around these parts) common in this genre!

I think if that were true people wouldn't be pulling out examples from 10 years ago to prove why we need combat logs today.
DAoC just happened to have the most hilarious example, I seem to recall a lot of handwave-y faith-based voodoo in CoX as well (before they realized the world won't end if they give players enough information to actually know wtf was going on in their game). I can't think of an example since then, because hiding everything from your players is no longer common because doing so is pointless and stupid.

Except how loot tables work in raids in WoW. There's plenty of voodoo around that, and people are pretty certain it's not straight RNG - Too many horror stories :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 13, 2011, 04:16:19 AM
"What is next" post on the official forums:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=274

Quote
Welcome to Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. It’s been many years in the making and the team is very proud of what we’ve achieved. Since we’re an online game we are going to continue building on the game for years to come. You can count on us to diligently expand the game and service to surprise and delight you. We’re going to not only respond to your feedback, but also hopefully exceed your expectations on how Star Wars: The Old Republic will evolve over time.

Many of you helped make the game what it is today by participating in our testing programs. You’ve watched the game grow over the past year and have been very vocal about things you’d like to see in the game in the future.

A team is never finished building a massively multiplayer game, so we’d like to take this opportunity to reveal a little information on what the team is working on for patches coming in the near future. Our priorities have been, and will continue to be, based off of the feedback we receive from our players.

• New Content – We will be adding new content to the galaxy on an ongoing basis. These worlds will include Operations, Flashpoints and solo content.

• Guild Functionality – Guilds are important to the long term health of any MMORPG. We have a huge list of guild centric features. This will be an ongoing effort that will probably never end. Guild banks are the first thing we’ll be delivering in our plans for increased guild functionality. Eventually we even want to deliver on the promise of the long hinted at “Guild Capital Ships”.

• UI customization – You like choice. We hear you! SWTOR is all about choice. Being able to choose how you interact with an online game is something we feel is very important. We are going to be giving more control over the UI as an ongoing effort. This is a very big priority for us.

• PvP – We have an entire team dedicated to adding content and features to player vs. player. We have some of the most experienced PvP developers in the world on this team. So far very few people have seen, or know much about the stunning Open World PVP on Ilum; when you get to the high levels prepare to be blown away! In addition to that high level PVP content, expect new Warzones and new PvP features on a regular basis.

• Space Combat – We will continue to add missions to the space game. We also have a special project going on right now that will expand space gameplay in a significant way... for now the details will have to remain under wraps.

• Legacy System – The ability to select a surname for your character is just the start of something much bigger. Soon, the Legacy experience and levels you earn will grant your characters access to powers, objects and other cool benefits.

• And more – We have an entire team of developers working on future content. Right now we are focused on nothing else but Star Wars: The Old Republic, so expect new and cool things.

It is fair to say that we’re just as excited as you are about the launch of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not only are we launching one of the largest and most impressive games ever created, but we’re also excited about the prospect of continuing to work on the game so that you, the fans, will always have something heroic and amazing to enjoy. Thanks for playing.


James Ohlen

Game Director

Hmm....We also have a special project going on right now that will expand space gameplay in a significant way..."   :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 13, 2011, 05:03:27 AM
http://buy.swtor.com/us/#optional-game-add-ons

Physical authenticators are now available via Origin.  iPhone and Android apps are on the way.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 13, 2011, 05:35:44 AM
are they expecting this to have as much issues as wow does security wise? Should I be getting an authenticator for the account i'll log onto twice a week?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 13, 2011, 05:37:22 AM
http://buy.swtor.com/us/#optional-game-add-ons

Physical authenticators are now available via Origin.  iPhone and Android apps are on the way.

Thank christ they are doing the app thing. Was really expecting them to milk the shit out of the physical authenticator costs.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 13, 2011, 05:39:14 AM
are they expecting this to have as much issues as wow does security wise? Should I be getting an authenticator for the account i'll log onto twice a week?

This is going to sound silly and sensational, but let me answer this with another query.  Since your house doesn't catch on fire all the time, do you really need fire insurance?  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Cyrrex on December 13, 2011, 05:52:06 AM
So what you're saying, if I am tracking you properly, is that I need to buy more fire insurance to play SWTOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 13, 2011, 05:53:13 AM
So what you're saying, if I am tracking you properly, is that I need to buy more fire insurance to play SWTOR.

I like hte cut of your jib.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 13, 2011, 05:56:04 AM
So what you're saying, if I am tracking you properly, is that I need to buy more fire insurance to play SWTOR.

Apparently I need to work on my /House impressions.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 13, 2011, 06:14:28 AM
are they expecting this to have as much issues as wow does security wise? Should I be getting an authenticator for the account i'll log onto twice a week?

Your login is an email address which is easily harvested from insecure forums.  After that it's just brute forcing, which can be quick or slow.    The one thing they have going for them that WoW doesn't is too many failed logins on the web requires a capcha test.  They still don't lock you out and I don't know what happens if you fail too many times in the patcher.

Better safe than sorry. The app will be free and if you bought the CE you get a free authenticator in the box anyway.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 13, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
oh free app. Ok, that's nice then. They should be doing a better job at communicating it's free through luckton, though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: luckton on December 13, 2011, 06:34:31 AM
oh free app. Ok, that's nice then. They should be doing a better job at communicating it's free through luckton, though.

ಠ_ಠ  And there's a MMO authenticator iOS/Droid app that charges for usage out there?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 13, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
I always thought the blizzard one wasn't free. Why am I bothering with this plastic pos again?  (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

ps: the narwhal gave me emoticons too  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Viin on December 13, 2011, 08:29:59 AM
This stupid legacy system is stupid. How am I suppose to come up with a single last name that works for all my characters?

And not having a last name in a Star Wars game is stupid too.

There goes my stupid plan of using my superb character names from EVE.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 13, 2011, 08:31:25 AM
I always thought the blizzard one wasn't free. Why am I bothering with this plastic pos again? 
Blizzard one is free but you pay S&H for the physical one.

This stupid legacy system is stupid. How am I suppose to come up with a single last name that works for all my characters?

And not having a last name in a Star Wars game is stupid too.

There goes my stupid plan of using my superb character names from EVE.

You can have a separate last name but title of "the xyz" legacy I thought.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Viin on December 13, 2011, 08:33:02 AM
You can't do spaces in a name, so I donno how you'd another last name unless thats new since the last beta weekend. I thought the legacy name *was* your last name, if you chose to show it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 13, 2011, 09:25:11 AM
You can display it so that it either looks like a last name or is displayed under your character's name as 'of the blahblah legacy' (or hide it altogether)  but there's still no way to have seperate legacy and surnames. :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 13, 2011, 09:51:35 AM
Well that's just dumb.

Anakin Skywalker was Darth Vader, not Darth Vader Skywalker. Leia was Leia Organa not Leia Skywalker.  :awesome_for_real:  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on December 13, 2011, 11:00:16 AM
I bet the community will make a RP tool that allows nicknames / surnames / aliases, as well as RP backgrounds etc., like there is in WoW.  That way people can have their Darth names, nicknames, etc.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 13, 2011, 11:06:49 AM
I could swear I saw people with spaces in their names in the last beta weekend.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fabricated on December 13, 2011, 11:08:54 AM
I wish you could get an honorary "the Hutt" title. I want to make a fat sith alt named "Pizza".


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 13, 2011, 01:29:46 PM
This stupid legacy system is stupid. How am I suppose to come up with a single last name that works for all my characters?
Jenkins.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 13, 2011, 01:34:49 PM
Jenkins.
Asshole would be a nice homage, but i have odd feeling you won't get that one past the censor.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mattemeo on December 13, 2011, 01:39:38 PM
I could swear I saw people with spaces in their names in the last beta weekend.

It might have been the elusive apostrophe. Coming from a game where practically every NPC member of a race (OH HAI TROLLS) has an apostrophe'd name while the player base are completely incapable of using one can blind you to their presence.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on December 13, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
I bet the community will make a RP tool that allows nicknames / surnames / aliases, as well as RP backgrounds etc., like there is in WoW.  That way people can have their Darth names, nicknames, etc.

Darth is actually a title that can be earned by Sith Warriors and Sith Inquisitors. So is Lord.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 13, 2011, 02:43:38 PM
Who would name their child Lord?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: 01101010 on December 13, 2011, 02:46:40 PM
Who would name their child Lord?

Madonna? IDK....  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 13, 2011, 02:53:02 PM
Who would name their child Lord?

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Simond on December 13, 2011, 02:54:46 PM
Who would name their child Lord?
(http://i.imgur.com/9q7ty.gif)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 13, 2011, 02:58:36 PM
Who would name their child Lord?

Madonna? IDK....  :ye_gods:

Hers is Lourdes... (named after the miracle pool... like the one Madonna got pregnant in... and it was a miracle she still had a uterus after all her years of... singing).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 13, 2011, 05:34:10 PM
WOOOOOOSH!

Heh.

Bravo, Lant. Bravo.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 13, 2011, 06:19:11 PM
Brava, you mean. :drillf:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: lamaros on December 14, 2011, 01:40:16 AM
In jokes? I dunno what has happened to this place. Back in my day such douche baggery would have been shot before its 21st birthday...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 14, 2011, 03:26:32 AM
Brava, you mean. :drillf:

I considered it but can't bring myself to type it!

In jokes? I dunno what has happened to this place. Back in my day such douche baggery would have been shot before its 21st birthday...

Ha!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 14, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
http://www.forums.bestbuy.com/t5/Gaming-Gadgets/Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-Developer-Live-Chat-Transcript/m-p/406744#M14937

Transcript of yesterday's evening chat with the developers. Some interesting tidbits: confirmation of a "secret space project"; also, hint about the possible implementation of pod racing, enhancements to UI and existing systems and more. Looks like they're not all about "moar flashpoints, moar operations" - only attitude, while of course that's a very important aspect to keep a large portion of the playerbase interested. I would like to see a more "horizontal" expansion more than a vertical one, especially when it comes to social/roleplaying activities (in other words, more stuff to do in between leveling).


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 14, 2011, 01:40:54 PM
Another (more substantial?) interview with James Ohlen (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/14/massively-exclusive-the-force-ghosts-of-past-present-and-futu/)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: March on December 14, 2011, 03:47:24 PM
Another (more substantial?) interview with James Ohlen (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/14/massively-exclusive-the-force-ghosts-of-past-present-and-futu/)

Shouldn't he be setting-up his own private blog about now?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 14, 2011, 05:42:48 PM
I'm curious what the early class breakdown looks like.  From the sound of it, Inquisitor seems to be by far the most popular choice on the Empire side so far.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with shooting lightning from their fingers.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 14, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
For me it totally doesn't! I simply love being a bitchy pink man twi'lek.  :heart:


Not that I've played him yet, but he exists!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 14, 2011, 06:53:25 PM
I'm curious what the early class breakdown looks like.  From the sound of it, Inquisitor seems to be by far the most popular choice on the Empire side so far.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with shooting lightning from their fingers.


They were the OP class in Beta. Specifically the Healing and Casting trees on the Sorc side. They got a little nerfed at the end of Beta but I imagine the reputation is still lingering. People should be latching onto the NEW OP class in couple weeks or so, Commando/Mercs  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 14, 2011, 07:03:01 PM
I'm curious what the early class breakdown looks like.  From the sound of it, Inquisitor seems to be by far the most popular choice on the Empire side so far.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with shooting lightning from their fingers.
The lightning is cool, but mostly it's the goth.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 14, 2011, 07:19:45 PM
The lightning is cool, but mostly it's the goth.

Goth.. that's so not me!

I'm sad that they seem to be as popular as they are so far, since I'd rather not play the 'huntard/ret paladin' class.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 14, 2011, 07:26:15 PM
No worries.  Mattemeo and I have already volunteered your Inquisitor for a full-time group. ;D


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 14, 2011, 08:04:33 PM
The lightning is cool, but mostly it's the goth.

Goth.. that's so not me!

I'm sad that they seem to be as popular as they are so far, since I'd rather not play the 'huntard/ret paladin' class.


The Huntard/Ret Paladin is the dual wield Jedi/Sith's.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Nevermore on December 14, 2011, 09:25:18 PM
Another (more substantial?) interview with James Ohlen (http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/14/massively-exclusive-the-force-ghosts-of-past-present-and-futu/)

I'm really not sure if I like that whole Legacy system they're doing.  For one thing, it encourages deleting and rerolling characters?  :headscratch:  For another, since it says one of the things you can unlock is new character creation options, and there's no way to go back and change any of your characters' appearances currently, it sounds like it would be a bad idea to start leveling up alts right now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 14, 2011, 09:29:21 PM
We need wookie barbers, STAT!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2011, 02:47:06 AM
I know you don't want to hear people unhappy with SWTOR, but let me vent my frustration here just one more final time. If possible I'm liking it even less than the beta. Republic Trooper story is horrible so far compared to Empire Bounty Hunter, and having played Mass Effect a lot in the last 2 weeks only made things worse.  All my other qualms stay, clunky interface, bland combat, horrible encounters, poor dungeons, pathetic itemization, sad ugly empty and cardboardy world, utterly subpar questing, lack of customization, poor visuals, terrible pvp, ...but at least the storytelling was great. While now, I feel that once again we set our bar so very low just because "it's an MMO", cause what we have here, storytelling-wise, is a cheap version of stuff that this same software house was doing about 5 years ago.

Also, this is certainly me, but the whole design of the game makes it hard for me to play it with people considering that I want to follow the story and listen to the dialogues but everyone chattering in TeamSpeak/Ventrilo inevitably take away from the cinematic (?) mood of it. As a result, either we quest together and everyone pressures you into clicking as fast as possible (or they just talk over stuff, see above), or I turn voice chat off and play it as a single player which doesn't hold a candle to much much older titles.

This game could have been awesome, epic, great. They had the tools, the people and the money to make it. It's depressing to see how generally disappointing the final product is.



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Reg on December 15, 2011, 02:52:05 AM
Is it too late to cancel your preorder?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 15, 2011, 02:54:32 AM
I admit I never understood the particular appeal of being in voice chat all the time, but I can see why that would be annoying with this game in particular.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 15, 2011, 03:09:28 AM
I tap on the keyboard all day long, I'd rather just disintegrate into my chair during the evening and expend as little effort as possible - which includes talking instead of typing. Then again, I did say i'll mostly solo stuff in TOR so I don't care much about vent chat. I did quest a bit with a friend and we were on skype, and it was quite fun making fun of each other's reponses. We didn't talk over the dialogue though :)

Falc, I don't know how that experience is any different from beta? Why would you have any different expectations coming into release? I'm fine just swinging my lightsabre around and enjoying the nicely written dialogue, much like Dragon Age 2, not much of a game, not much of a story, but smart writting (dialogue in particular) is what gets me :)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2011, 03:23:20 AM
No wolf, no different. It's me. I am just venting frustration as I said, due to a worse storyline that the one I tested, and Mass Effect 1 reminding me how better at that (storytelling) Bioware can be.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 15, 2011, 04:26:41 AM
The trooper SL sucked on the starting world until about level 8, then it got better.   IMO at least.  I gave up on it after level 6/7 in the beta weekend until folks said it got better and I went back to give it another shot.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 15, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
No wolf, no different. It's me. I am just venting frustration as I said, due to a worse storyline that the one I tested, and Mass Effect 1 reminding me how better at that (storytelling) Bioware can be.

Have you tried the Imperial Agent at all? I only played it up to the end of Dromund Kaas in the beta but the storyline was the best I experienced up to that point. If you're intending to stick it out and trying to get a good story out of the game at least, it might be worth giving a go.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 15, 2011, 04:59:30 AM
Out of the 7-8 I played, trooper was the worst but the beginning of IA (first 6-7lvls of Hutta) were probably second worst. It got so much better that it'll probably end up being my second character.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 15, 2011, 05:28:51 AM
As far as gripes go I'm not very happy with the textures myself.  I love the style and everything looks great from a distance.  Up close the textures on my characters are not what I'd expect though.   I don't know if it's still bugged or what but they need a higher texture option for people with computers that can handle it.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tyrnan on December 15, 2011, 05:34:53 AM
As far as gripes go I'm not very happy with the textures myself.  I love the style and everything looks great from a distance.  Up close the textures on my characters are not what I'd expect though.   I don't know if it's still bugged or what but they need a higher texture option for people with computers that can handle it.

From what I've been able to tell, high-res textures are only used in the cutscenes. I was very disappointed when my first one ended and the textures went back to being sub-par. One thing I noticed however, is that medium and high texture settings are the same (there's no visible change in quality and the game world doesn't redraw like when you switch between low and medium) so I'm still hoping they'll get around to enabling them, along with anti-aliasing I don't have to force through the .ini file, some time soon.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Amaron on December 15, 2011, 05:43:18 AM
From what I've been able to tell, high-res textures are only used in the cutscenes. I was very disappointed when my first one ended and the textures went back to being sub-par.

It's hit and miss on that.  Most of the time all my textures are the same ones used in cutscenes now.   I never get pop-in anymore thankfully.    They aren't horrible but they are not high quality.    It's simply a matter of the textures not being high enough res too.    The problems with them are always blockiness on select parts due to stretching.    It's not a huge deal it would just be nice to have higher res versions of the originals.   They have them and my computer can easily handle it as an optional download.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ghost on December 15, 2011, 05:51:15 AM
Wow.  There isn't a bit of original thought in this game.  From the opening scene, which is Episode I-VI all over again, to the Wow-esque gameplay.  And I have to say that so far it doesn't bother me a bit.  I'm enjoying it so far. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 15, 2011, 06:52:56 AM
I know you don't want to hear people unhappy with SWTOR, but let me vent my frustration here just one more final time.
Nah, Falc. You're at least stating your unhappiness pretty rationally.

I only ask folks refrain from venting about stuff in guild chat, where people are trying to enjoy themselves. The forum is the appropriate venue for this stuff.

Sucks that some folks aren't digging it. I'm worried about how much I enjoy TOR.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 15, 2011, 06:55:30 AM
Armor textures and whatnot are usually fine. There are some glaring low/shit textures mixed in. My trooper's armor plating? Great. His sleeves? 1992 style color blending at the lines. My Consular's armor looks pretty awesome all day long, though.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 15, 2011, 07:02:13 AM
Wow.  There isn't a bit of original thought in this game.  From the opening scene, which is Episode I-VI all over again, to the Wow-esque gameplay.  And I have to say that so far it doesn't bother me a bit.  I'm enjoying it so far. 

The question is if it bothers you three months from now. I say this as someone impatiently waiting on my access email.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 15, 2011, 07:35:32 AM
Armor textures and whatnot are usually fine. There are some glaring low/shit textures mixed in. My trooper's armor plating? Great. His sleeves? 1992 style color blending at the lines. My Consular's armor looks pretty awesome all day long, though.

There's surprisingly little cliping though, which is the bane of WoW armor textures. In WoW horns, weird haircuts, beards, etc are clipping left and right, I never had that happen in TOR. Than again, races in TOR are basically humans, green humans, blue humans, gray humans and red humans.

Totally unrelated but I've always wanted to ask. Why do male twileks have human ears, but female ones have cone not-ears?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 15, 2011, 07:47:47 AM
My guess is it has something to do with bridles!


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 15, 2011, 07:52:31 AM
My pet theory is, that's because the males have to listen to what the females tell them, while the females do as they please.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sky on December 15, 2011, 07:58:09 AM
No, there's a ton of clipping. Doesn't bug me, but it's there. My BH handler had her pistol clip out her butt for the lol. Maybe she was just happy to see me.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: CmdrSlack on December 15, 2011, 08:02:34 AM
I managed to get a few levels in last night. Tonight, I am not the only parent at home in the evening, so I am hoping to get my ass off Korriban and into double-digits level-wise. Everything ran great, the servers seem to be pretty well spread out population-wise.

I'm glad that I saved the Sith Inquisitor stuff for launch. This story is way better so far than the one for the Jedi Knight.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on December 15, 2011, 08:44:05 AM
The opening landing for the Imperial agent (or maybe it was bounty hunter) has the ship clip right through an entire tower.  There is a lot more clipping with items and armor.  I don't really care though.

I can see all of Falc's points being valid (except complaints about the storyline) but it is very much a perspective, eye-of-the-beholder type thing.  Also, people wanted it to be like the movies and WoW, originality isn't all that great most of the time.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Soln on December 15, 2011, 08:49:54 AM
Is the NDA up?  Can we ask questions that might hurt some people's feelings?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 15, 2011, 08:50:34 AM
Is the NDA up? 

No.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 15, 2011, 08:56:51 AM
My issue was that skills are one-to-one WoW skills. Then I played some on my sith Sorc, and I thought it's actually great for what I'm looking for in the game. I can play this without actually having to, you know, learn a new game. This is my power word: shield, my flash heal, my greater heal, my regrowth, my rejuv and this is my efflorecence. I know what these skills do and when to press one over the other, I'm instantly comfortable with them and don't have to experiment to know what works best.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Soln on December 15, 2011, 09:06:25 AM

Then what is everyone doing here then?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 15, 2011, 09:08:48 AM
it was lifted around mid-november iirc


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lantyssa on December 15, 2011, 10:28:23 AM
Then what is everyone doing here then?
Work.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Morfiend on December 15, 2011, 10:33:10 AM
Then what is everyone doing here then?
Work.

^^

I have to say, its been a long long time since I have been this addicted to a game at release. I feel like a kid again, just want to rush home and play.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: CmdrSlack on December 15, 2011, 01:14:42 PM
I will third the work thing. I warned my wife that since she wasn't working a night shift today, it was going to be my night of catassery when I get home from work. Given that my kid will probably just watch me play because she likes the cut-scenes, it's not like having a second adult around is THAT beneficial. But still, I've probably lost more productivity today thinking about playing when I get home than I have since SWG launched.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Furiously on December 16, 2011, 12:24:08 AM
I had a great morning with my son. He presses the w key to make me move and let's me take over to fight.  About two hours in he says, "Dad, we're playing as the bad guys aren't we?" and gives me a slightly disapproving look.  He then wandered off to work on his puzzle.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2011, 12:30:59 AM

About two hours in he says, "Dad, we're playing as the bad guys aren't we?" and gives me a slightly disapproving look. 


You tell him, kid.  :heart:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 16, 2011, 12:31:54 AM

About two hours in he says, "Dad, we're playing as the bad guys aren't we?" and gives me a slightly disapproving look. 


You tell him, kid.  :heart:

(http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16600000/Baby-Vader-anakin-skywalker-16628395-380-270.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2011, 12:35:18 AM
Argh, fuck you.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Lucas on December 16, 2011, 12:36:30 AM
Well, that's the APOTHEOSIS of a "slightly disapproving look", don't blame me  :grin:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Tannhauser on December 16, 2011, 02:35:44 AM
That's the slightly Downs Syndrome look.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 16, 2011, 06:29:52 AM
The disapproval bunny disapproves...

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/318368/7011.jpg)


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: eldaec on December 16, 2011, 06:32:04 AM
Also, for info, judging from number of posts - if this forum hadn't been created we would have broken page 500 on the one thread this morning.

Oh what might have been...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2011, 07:47:07 AM
I am so torn on what to level, and what I will wind up playing in the end. I mean, besides "with other people because my guild replaced me with a Companion" <3

Edit: Also, this is the CC breakingest launch crowd I've ever played with. Nice folks, but they apparently have never heard of focus fire.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 16, 2011, 08:08:34 AM
Nor can they follow simple instructions like "when you see the lightning on the robot, back out of melee and kite him" or "Do not stand in the purple circles the sith guy creates.  Lightning hurts."

I let them die and we win anyway. 


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 16, 2011, 08:09:09 AM
Edit: Also, this is the CC breakingest launch crowd I've ever played with. Nice folks, but they apparently have never heard of focus fire.

Isn't that the crowd that pre-ordered fastest, hence gave up on cata earliest, hence basically the lich king dungeons crowd? WotLK dungeons, doing damage across multiple games  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2011, 08:14:31 AM
I am so torn on what to level, and what I will wind up playing in the end. I mean, besides "with other people because my guild replaced me with a Companion" <3

Edit: Also, this is the CC breakingest launch crowd I've ever played with. Nice folks, but they apparently have never heard of focus fire.

The first flashpoint sort of encourages people to be tardbuckets with all the little wimpy enemies, yes. I can't wait to do higher level ones when everyone has fully commited to derping up CC and the like.  :why_so_serious:

I've been enjoying my smuggler, but almost entirely because of the story. Pure DPS just isn't my main-character sort of thing. But I found I am not a huge fan of other people having the same exact voice as me, so that makes the consular less attractive. My life is hard.  :oh_i_see:  I think I'm going to reroll my trooper to be a boy, since I cannot handle Commander Shepard + catboy, and wave a sad farewell to my Republic-side boy twi'lek and make my jedi knight a lady. Because I promised myself, only one dude on the Republic side.

Also I want to make out with the male inquisitor voice actor. Straight up.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Draegan on December 16, 2011, 08:19:59 AM
First Flashpoint doesn't need a healer because a ton of the damage is avoidable by not standing near whirling blades of doom.  Tards will have to learn.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2011, 08:24:37 AM
It's some of the meaner heroics where I go all RAGE about breaking CC. Because we lack the tools to just power heal through it when every DPS is offtanking something elite and nothing's dying quickly. :( The first flashpoint is mostly a joke, only the bosses hit for anything, and every add pack has an explosive barrel next to it that will wipe them out if you think to click it.

I like consular healing. I also kind of like smuggler healing more now. I'm going to be broken again and have like, all the healers.

I really like lady consular voice. And made a bunch of pug friends with her because apparently RPing her makes people think you're a snarky healer instead of just a very relaxed lady at peace with the universe.

Wait, why am I actually like, half RPing a character in an MMO. WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO ME.


edit: I'm talking more Fall of the Locust and whatnot. 3-4 gold stars per pack, and 1-2 silver healers. Painful groups if you just wade in and derp it up.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: DraconianOne on December 16, 2011, 08:46:34 AM
I like consular healing. I also kind of like smuggler healing more now. I'm going to be broken again and have like, all the healers.

Are there any basic guides to Smuggler healing at all? I reckon I'll be going that way in a levels time and I can safely say, having never healed ever, I have no idea what I'll be doing.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2011, 08:52:51 AM
I like consular healing. I also kind of like smuggler healing more now. I'm going to be broken again and have like, all the healers.

Are there any basic guides to Smuggler healing at all? I reckon I'll be going that way in a levels time and I can safely say, having never healed ever, I have no idea what I'll be doing.

I think I will start a smuggler/IA thread in a bit. It is a bit strange and based around pacing your heals and managing upper hand.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Wolf on December 16, 2011, 09:00:36 AM
Is the energy regen mechanic the same as on the DPS side? As in, the more you spend, the slower the regen rate and you should really hang around 75-80 to keep the full regen going? That seems like a hella fun healer to play.

Someone here said upper hand is a silly mechanic, how does it work exactly? What are exploits?


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on December 16, 2011, 09:03:19 AM
Upper Hand sounds like the rogue/feral openers/finisher combo system, where abilities build up points and other abilities use up the points for huge damage.  Or in this case, huge healing.

Edit:  read the comments here (torhead.com) (http://www.torhead.com/ability/bXWJmbt) for the explanation.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2011, 09:13:20 AM
Upper Hand sounds like the rogue/feral openers/finisher combo system, where abilities build up points and other abilities use up the points for huge damage.  Or in this case, huge healing.

Edit:  read the comments here (torhead.com) (http://www.torhead.com/ability/bXWJmbt) for the explanation.

Sort of, ish. Upper hand is a short lved buff for special attacks. You don't build it up (you can only have two at any point), but you do gain and spend it. It's.. poorly explained in game unless you go poking around your passive abilities imo.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: ajax34i on December 16, 2011, 09:23:10 AM
I guess what matters is how often you need those special attacks (or special heals) as part of your rotation.  If you have to use Upper Hand every 15 seconds, then it's probably a lot less "sort of ish".  I have no clue, as I'm not playing the game yet, this is all armchair opinionating from things I've read.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: kildorn on December 16, 2011, 09:29:07 AM
You use it to fuel alternate things.

The 1.5s heal requires upper hand, the 2.5s smaller heal creates upper hand.
Your AE volley consumes it, pugnacity (energy regen buff) consumes it. A few of your talent tree skills consume it.

It's not really a combo point system, it's more a chain attack system. You use X ability to create the opportunity to use Y or Z.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Merusk on December 16, 2011, 09:44:00 AM
Edit: Also, this is the CC breakingest launch crowd I've ever played with. Nice folks, but they apparently have never heard of focus fire.

Isn't that the crowd that pre-ordered fastest, hence gave up on cata earliest, hence basically the lich king dungeons crowd? WotLK dungeons, doing damage across multiple games  :why_so_serious:

I also wonder how many first time players are here simply because it's Boware + Star Wars. Nowhere near as many as WOW's launch.. BUT the encounters are more complex than most SP bosses.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Mrbloodworth on December 16, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
Guy I grouped with last night was new. He was clearly just playing the latest star wars game. We did fine.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 16, 2011, 11:35:58 AM
You use it to fuel alternate things.

The 1.5s heal requires upper hand, the 2.5s smaller heal creates upper hand.
Your AE volley consumes it, pugnacity (energy regen buff) consumes it. A few of your talent tree skills consume it.

It's not really a combo point system, it's more a chain attack system. You use X ability to create the opportunity to use Y or Z.

It's pretty much the Champion fervour system from LOTRO.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Ingmar on December 16, 2011, 11:37:00 AM
On CC breaking, it isn't my fault that force leap + sweep is so awesome that it must be used constantly.  :drill:


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sobelius on December 16, 2011, 12:08:51 PM
I think I'm going to reroll my trooper to be a boy, since I cannot handle Commander Shepard + catboy...

My first toon to get a companion is my Jedi Knight and he has no interest in making out with a red trash can on wheels.  Now if Master Orgasm (Orgus? I forget), ever wants to ride my toon's lightsaber, he'll oblige him (in a pity-fuck kind of way). But he'll do this only because he's learned that "love" (i.e. romance) between Jedi is forbidden. Sex, on the other hand...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Soln on December 16, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
I'm not getting it.

Jedi starting area is still (second time round from a beta) really boring.  Art work is really, really bland.  I want to gush on this, but I'm not feeling it yet.

I asked this a few weeks ago and got told to wait:  do things pick up after lvls 5, 10, 15, what not?  Do they tie complexity and progression like LotRO?  So you get more interesting skills at higher levels?   


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Sjofn on December 16, 2011, 02:56:31 PM
I think I'm going to reroll my trooper to be a boy, since I cannot handle Commander Shepard + catboy...

My first toon to get a companion is my Jedi Knight and he has no interest in making out with a red trash can on wheels.  Now if Master Orgasm (Orgus? I forget), ever wants to ride my toon's lightsaber, he'll oblige him (in a pity-fuck kind of way). But he'll do this only because he's learned that "love" (i.e. romance) between Jedi is forbidden. Sex, on the other hand...

Ha, my consular has a giant lizard dude she doesn't get along with at all as her first companion. But she knows her harem is coming. SHE KNOWS.

What I really meant, of course, is that while catboy is nice enough I am sure, I am not particularly interested in his romance, and I just ... Commander Shepard's voice should not be coming out of my giant green woman's mouth. It should be coming out of Commander Shepard's mouth. Plus I already know I fucking hate her flirting voice. So I might as well make some hot trooper man candy.  :why_so_serious:


Fake Edit: I think the jedi starter zone is pretty. <shrug> It's probably the least interesting quest-wise, though, at least as far as the shared/consular stuff goes.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Pezzle on December 16, 2011, 03:06:12 PM
From the Valley of the Jolly!...



Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Fordel on December 16, 2011, 03:07:52 PM
My issue with the Jedi starting zone is I could drop it into any generic fantasy MMO and call it a day.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Kageru on December 16, 2011, 06:28:49 PM

MMO honeymoon in full effect. I look forward to the tone changing when the story train pulls into the last station.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: tmp on December 17, 2011, 02:06:06 AM
On CC breaking, it isn't my fault that force leap + sweep is so awesome that it must be used constantly.  :drill:
I can't get enough of pulling random shit out of the floor and throwing it at people.

edit: Also, getting with my lizard guy just swimmingly, he's pretty much Sten v 2.0  It's actually starting to worry me, hopefuly he doesn't turn out to be a romance option at some point...


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on December 17, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
I'm also playing this since they sent me an early access invite and the extended grace period means I'll actually get some time with the game before they kick me out for not paying anything. Thanks guys!

I'd echo that what I played of the jedi knight story in the beta was pretty boring. Maybe it gets better, but your impression of the early story doesn't seem strange. I'm playing a Smuggler right now because they're the only non-jedi class that can be Twi'lek on the republic side. The storyline is 10x better than any of the other ones I tried during beta (which is just about all of them).

It's sort of weird that the game tells you to pick one specialization for the life of your character, but really gives you very little information about what that specialization will play like. You get a couple lines of description and then you can check the talent trees, but they're largely referencing abilities and mechanics you don't know about yet.

I also deleted my companion's cosmetic armor kit by accident. I dragged it onto his paper doll and read the "are you sure you want to delete this?" as "are you sure you want to equip this?". Doh.

I'm clicking with the game much better now that I'm playing a race I like and a class with an interesting storyline. I still wish there were more options for races though. You see some really interesting ones available for companions, but not for players. I'm still going to wait a bit before picking it up probably, but I'm having fun for now.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Modern Angel on December 17, 2011, 04:51:52 AM
I asked this a few weeks ago and got told to wait:  do things pick up after lvls 5, 10, 15, what not?  Do they tie complexity and progression like LotRO?  So you get more interesting skills at higher levels?   


No.

Here's what I've come to realize. LOTRO tells a really interesting, engaging storyline in a very drab way. SWTOR tells mostly drab, uninteresting, predictable stories in a novel way.

The classes are... mostly uninteresting. There's nothing that breaks the mold here or takes the chance and the fourth mini-pillar (support) is missing entirely, just like in WoW.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Miasma on December 17, 2011, 07:52:56 AM
I haven't done any research on who gets what companions so when my Imperial Agent got off the starter planet and met inquisitors I assumed these walking mutants I started seeing were some sort of enemy.  That's a pretty odd companion.

I'm also playing this since they sent me an early access invite and the extended grace period means I'll actually get some time with the game before they kick me out for not paying anything. Thanks guys!

I'd echo that what I played of the jedi knight story in the beta was pretty boring. Maybe it gets better, but your impression of the early story doesn't seem strange. I'm playing a Smuggler right now because they're the only non-jedi class that can be Twi'lek on the republic side. The storyline is 10x better than any of the other ones I tried during beta (which is just about all of them).

It's sort of weird that the game tells you to pick one specialization for the life of your character, but really gives you very little information about what that specialization will play like. You get a couple lines of description and then you can check the talent trees, but they're largely referencing abilities and mechanics you don't know about yet.

I also deleted my companion's cosmetic armor kit by accident. I dragged it onto his paper doll and read the "are you sure you want to delete this?" as "are you sure you want to equip this?". Doh.

I'm clicking with the game much better now that I'm playing a race I like and a class with an interesting storyline. I still wish there were more options for races though. You see some really interesting ones available for companions, but not for players. I'm still going to wait a bit before picking it up probably, but I'm having fun for now.
Rokal please continue to play swtor, these people need the same highly respected wisdom that you unleash on the WoW boards here.  In fact I think you should dedicate yourself entirely to swtor and stop posting about WoW.


Title: Re: Pre-release thread discussion
Post by: Rokal on December 17, 2011, 12:39:01 PM
:p