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Author Topic: Pathfinder MMO  (Read 59231 times)
Ratman_tf
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on: November 22, 2011, 01:45:58 PM

Paizo, the company that makes the Pathfinder TTRPG announced an MMO today.

http://paizo.com/

https://goblinworks.com/



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Rendakor
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Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 04:06:10 PM

That's the modified 3.5E D&D ruleset, right? Or is this a different Pathfinder?

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Fordel
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Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 04:06:44 PM

Correct. 3.55++ or whatever.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Malakili
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Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 04:10:40 PM

Correct. 3.55++ or whatever.

3.5 + actually viable classes across the board.

I actually really like Pathfinder enough that I bought a hard copy of the beta handbook when they were still writing it  Ohhhhh, I see.  That being said, I don't think I'll be playing this.
Fordel
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Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 04:11:49 PM

That's REALLY fucking debatable, the 'viable classes' thing.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Evildrider
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Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 04:15:29 PM

Too bad it's 3rd edition  awesome, for real
Ard
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Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 04:26:35 PM

Heh, go read the faq on the developer's site.  It's pathfinder/3rd edition in name only.  They've even removed levels.  I have no clue where they're going with this.
Fordel
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Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 04:30:21 PM

I just want to start a 3.5 vs 4e fight again.  why so serious?


/not really

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ghambit
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Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 05:19:52 PM

Heh... this still gets funding even though Neverwinter is on the plate?
Unless it's turn-based it's vapourware.

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Ingmar
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Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 05:22:05 PM

It isn't surprising they've stripped all that stuff out. Among the things the original OGL specifically did NOT allow you to do, was make computer games using the rules.

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shiznitz
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Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 07:15:50 AM

Maybe this will be the next UO!   DRILLING AND MANLINESS

From FAQ:

Quote
How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?

Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.

The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.

Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.

They are looking for accredited investors with a $100,000 minimum.  For those that don't know what accredited means, it means an institution or "proven rich guy" basically.  You can read the official definition here:

http://www.sec.gov/answers/accred.htm
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 07:32:27 AM by shiznitz »

I have never played WoW.
Stormwaltz
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Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 07:51:45 AM

They sent out a press release type of thing to their newsletter subscribers today.

Quote
Paizo Publishing, LLC has licensed the MMORPG electronic gaming rights to its smash-hit Pathfinder Roleplaying Game intellectual property to Goblinworks, a Redmond, Washington game developer and publisher that will create Pathfinder Online, a next-generation fantasy sandbox massively multiplayer online game. Founded by Paizo co-owner Lisa Stevens (Pathfinder RPG, Vampire: The Masquerade, Magic: The Gathering), game industry veteran Ryan S. Dancey (Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition, EVE Online), and experienced MMO developer Mark Kalmes (Microsoft, Cryptic Studios, CCP), Goblinworks is an independent company that will work with Paizo Publishing to bring the award-winning world and adventures of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game to the online gaming market. The process has only just begun, and there is plenty of opportunity for gamers to get in on the ground floor of this exciting new project. Paizo and Goblinworks are committed to solicitin g player feedback about the Pathfinder Online project, and more information can be found at goblinworks.com.

Pathfinder Online will cast players as heroes in a unique online fantasy world filled with sword & sorcery adventures and kingdoms inhabited and controlled by thousands of competing players. Players can explore, develop, adventure, and dominate by playing fighters, rogues, clerics, or any of Pathfinder's many character classes, or they can go beyond the standard options to create nearly any type of character imaginable. Find lairs, ruins, and caverns filled with monstrous creatures and incredible treasure. Build glittering cities of castles and bustling markets. Take to the battlefield with vast armies to seize and hold territory. Players change the world and create new stories as they compete for resources, land, and military might. The possibilities are endless.

It sounds like a pipe dream, though a lovely and appealing one.

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

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Ratman_tf
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Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 08:30:41 AM

They sent out a press release type of thing to their newsletter subscribers today.

Quote
Paizo Publishing, LLC has licensed the MMORPG electronic gaming rights to its smash-hit Pathfinder Roleplaying Game intellectual property to Goblinworks, a Redmond, Washington

Oh, cool. Goblinworks is in Redmond. I'll toss them my resume for shits and giggles.



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-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Ingmar
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Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 08:45:03 AM

So that's what Ryan Dancey (architect of the OGL) is up to these days. Should be interesting to see what happens.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 12:35:38 PM

I'm interested only insofar as Paizo's marketplace position (neck and neck with WOTC, sometimes even beating them in sales in some months) fascinates me. It's a ballsy move.
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Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 01:43:21 PM

Interesting, mainly because I've become a huge Pathfinder fanboi (been DMing an Adventure Path every Sunday for the past six months).

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Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 04:45:15 PM

So, a sandbox MMOG with themepark elements that is still searching for investors.

Right.

Ratman_tf
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Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 04:55:10 PM

So, a sandbox MMOG with themepark elements that is still searching for investors.

Right.

Why should Richard Garriot have all the fun?



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
shiznitz
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Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 05:32:47 PM

New blog post is up here:

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Check this part:

Quote
Big Things Come in Small Packages

The second critical issue with theme park MMOs is that it's very difficult to entertain a crowd of theme park enthusiasts who have completed all the theme park content... and theme park enthusiasts can blast through content in no time. If new content isn't ready when players have finished the old content, they'll flee to another MMO (many will go back to World of Warcraft). The result is the "spike & crash" pattern we've seen with every major fantasy theme park MMO released in the past five years. Companies are then in the position where they no longer have enough customers to cover the cost of the enormous infrastructure they've built up for the launch. This is why many MMOs don't have long-term success.

Lisa's challenge to figure out how to make the game on a lean budget led me to the realization that the last thing we want is a huge spike of players followed by a rapid decline. What we want instead is a slow, steady growth of players—the same kind of growth that EVE Online has experienced almost every year since its launch. Since Goblinworks won't have to pay off a huge theme park mortgage, our focus will instead be on making our virtual world as engaging as possible and sustaining that virtual world as the population grows over years of time.

But a sandbox needs a critical mass of players to interact with each other, or they may as well be playing a solo game. One part of the design that helps determine the amount of interaction is the density of the world—how big is it and how many characters are in that space?

We believe that we've solved that equation in a surprising way, which led us to what we think is a revolutionary plan.

At launch, and for the first seven months following, we will cap new paying players at 4,500 per month. Four thousand five hundred new paying players monthly. We expect to keep only about 25% of those players on a long-term basis, so after we factor in attrition of each month's signups, we end up with 16,500 paying players at the end of that seven-month period.

Making a game that starts with 4,500 players and grows to 16,500 players is much, much easier and vastly less expensive than making a game designed to accommodate a million players on day one. We'll be able to focus on a relatively small part of the world at first, expanding it only as we need to.

After the first seven months, we'll raise the limit on new paying players to 12,000 per month. That will remain our goal for the next couple years of Pathfinder Online's life cycle. Factoring in attrition, by the end of the game's third year of operation, we expect to have about 120,000 paying players. For many MMOs, that number would be considered a failure, but because of our lean development strategy, achieving that number of paying customers will mean success for Pathfinder Online.

Crazy or genius?

I have never played WoW.
Ingmar
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Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 05:35:33 PM

His last crazy plan (the OGL) worked very well. I think they're far more likely to fail than succeed, but this is a project I'll be rooting for.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
lamaros
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Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 06:01:48 PM

Its the smartest (simplified) business model for a niche MMO I've seen yet.
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Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 06:20:56 PM

It's a great sounding theory.

However...

Quote
We're leveraging middleware to reduce cost, development time and risk. We're making a sandbox-focused game with a launch target of 4,500 players on a slow but steady growth plan.

And one of the best parts of it is that it means our development plan is much shorter than traditional theme park MMOs require. Once we've begun full production, we'll be sharing milestones with the community so you'll be able to track our progress from start to release.

It's a low-return, long-term model. There will be the rush to get in early (and forced exclusivity will actually create greater launch demand from certain groups) but the critical question is how many players will still want to be signing up 3 months post-launch. If you aren't on the first wave in sandbox-ish game, there is the risk that you'll be crowded out by other players / guilds establishing themselves. Also, a shorter development time means less content which in turn means that there will be a lot of players who complain about lack of content. That's not good in a small pool of early paying users.

I'm all for different game development models and shorter development times for MMOs, but this seems an odd mix. Did player caps on release work for Darkfall?

The middleware is also a thing. It isn't as bad as it was a few years ago, but this model isn't going to have the revenue to work around middleware restrictions / limitations if they don't pick the right one up front.

shiznitz
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Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 06:33:24 PM

The idea of a limit is a good one. 4,500 seems awfully small, though.  You could have a much larger monthly "class" and still maintain the sense of exclusivity.

I have never played WoW.
lamaros
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Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 06:41:16 PM

It's a great sounding theory.

However...

Quote
We're leveraging middleware to reduce cost, development time and risk. We're making a sandbox-focused game with a launch target of 4,500 players on a slow but steady growth plan.

And one of the best parts of it is that it means our development plan is much shorter than traditional theme park MMOs require. Once we've begun full production, we'll be sharing milestones with the community so you'll be able to track our progress from start to release.

It's a low-return, long-term model. There will be the rush to get in early (and forced exclusivity will actually create greater launch demand from certain groups) but the critical question is how many players will still want to be signing up 3 months post-launch. If you aren't on the first wave in sandbox-ish game, there is the risk that you'll be crowded out by other players / guilds establishing themselves. Also, a shorter development time means less content which in turn means that there will be a lot of players who complain about lack of content. That's not good in a small pool of early paying users.

I'm all for different game development models and shorter development times for MMOs, but this seems an odd mix. Did player caps on release work for Darkfall?

The middleware is also a thing. It isn't as bad as it was a few years ago, but this model isn't going to have the revenue to work around middleware restrictions / limitations if they don't pick the right one up front.

Both of these were addressed in the blog post.

They game doesn't sound like it is going to be level based, and with new areas being released with each 'push' of new players I think the opportunites will not be as hugely skewed to existing players as it might seem. Also it's something they are aware of, which at least means they will keep and eye on it. (Edit: Also, once you get to a certain point, you will probably be releasing new servers too, which is a fresh start and gives no one an advantage.)

In terms of content obviously they are going heavy on the world building and hoping that they can create a social and political environment that allows players to generate their own content. Eve seems to do this pretty well, so I dunno why they couldn't too. Also they seem to have a lot of existing assets to use in terms of the Pathfinder stuff, so costs there are going to be much lower than if they had to write and design all that stuff too, giving them time to implement it right.

I think the Darkfall comparison is a good one. If a bunch of lazy guys with no real idea what they are doing can release a MMO that somewhat works, then a bunch of experienced people with a good business plan and open eyes should be able to do it much much better.

I'm going with optimistic for now.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:46:17 PM by lamaros »
Kageru
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Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 08:25:50 PM


Seems like a questionable solution to the wrong problem to me. Any solution that boils down to "don't let people buy our game" sounds like a bad starting point.

And while I agree that a smaller title should aim for a more sandbox / interesting mechanics style of play over theme-park content (like Eve did and Fallen Earth didn't) I still don't see how that ties to the solution presented. You need to get a user base established ASAP (and an income stream) that will keep people sticking with the product while content evolves. And likewise you need a substantial population to make most of the interesting mechanics work. Eve would never have worked if the growth of player organisations had been stymied, and space been empty, as this  suggestion encourages.

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Ghambit
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Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 08:51:23 PM

If they're gonna go as far as limiting signups to a paltry 4500 per month, then why not just embrace the spirit of Pathfinder/OGL and lease their property out to enterprise serverfarms who want to take a shot at a franchise?  To me, that's a MUCH smarter biz model as you limit your exposure w/o limiting your base.  Especially since this is supposed to be sandboxey, you may take it even further by allowing varying rulesets ala Neverwinter.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
lamaros
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Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 10:53:51 PM


Seems like a questionable solution to the wrong problem to me. Any solution that boils down to "don't let people buy our game" sounds like a bad starting point.

And while I agree that a smaller title should aim for a more sandbox / interesting mechanics style of play over theme-park content (like Eve did and Fallen Earth didn't) I still don't see how that ties to the solution presented. You need to get a user base established ASAP (and an income stream) that will keep people sticking with the product while content evolves. And likewise you need a substantial population to make most of the interesting mechanics work. Eve would never have worked if the growth of player organisations had been stymied, and space been empty, as this  suggestion encourages.


You don't think 4500 is enough for one server in the first month? Dunno where you're getting the 'space is empty, etc' comment from.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 01:00:34 AM

How are they going to decide who gets in?

I think the idea is sound, but it seems more fitting for an IP with no brand recognition. I imagine a few gamers know of Pathfinder, and word of mouth among the MMOGers should give this thing a bit of exposure.



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-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Sheepherder
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Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 01:05:37 AM

"Oh, hey, a Pathfinder MMO!  I'll tell the guys, and we can get a group together to take turns rolling virtual D20's, slay monsters, and level up together!"

"Umm, there's no D20's. Or turns.  Or levels.  Also, you probably won't be able to play with your friends for a few months."

"Huh."
Fordel
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Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 01:36:28 AM

Pathfinder does have it's own setting IP thing right?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Kitsune
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Reply #30 on: December 08, 2011, 01:37:52 AM

Pathfinder is a system for cretins and scofflaws.  Arcana Unearthed/Evolved is the actual best OGL-based system out there.  I would squeal like a girl if it ever got a decent port into a MMORPG.
Fordel
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Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 01:41:34 AM

I have no idea what that is Kitsune.


Then again I only know what Pathfinder is because every time someone mentions DnD someone else goes on about Pathfinder as the one true faith or whatever.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Kageru
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Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 03:26:55 AM

You don't think 4500 is enough for one server in the first month? Dunno where you're getting the 'space is empty, etc' comment from.

I don't think putting a player limit makes much sense at all. The launch day buzz is the best time to sell your game.

The "Empty space" was part of a sentence talking about Eve. 4500 people in the Eve universe would be an empty wasteland. But it's also my belief that if you are going to have a sandbox world and emergent gameplay you need quite a lot of people to make it work / avoid dead space.

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lamaros
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Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 05:07:20 AM

Sure, but it's not Eve's world.

What is to stop them releasing with a smaller space and fewer servers, and then opening up more of the landmass and adding more servers over time? It won't feel empty if they get the balance right.

Launch isn't the be and end all of a game, otherwise games would never increase their subs unless it was tied to a launch or expansion. With mmos long term retention and growing of the population is much more to do with the quality of the product. Be it WoW or Eve.

I think the reasoning behind a limited launch are pretty reasonable: they want to stop themselves from getting overextended.

Or, look at it a different way: the first 6 months are actually just a carefully controlled paid beta test. The limits are much more understandable then, all you have to question is the paid element. Personally I'm fine with that.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 05:09:06 AM by lamaros »
Ratman_tf
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Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 05:56:00 AM

Pathfinder does have it's own setting IP thing right?

Yep. Golarion.

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Golarion

The world itself (from what I hear) is pretty bog standard, but I also hear the adventure paths. (Series of adventure modules that tell a story) are quite good.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
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