CCP 'Sharpens its Focus' Said focus does not invovlve Vampires.

[Ingmar]

My point is that it doesn't have to be part of the current crop. The longer it goes, the less it's worth. Maybe nobody's interested but if I were a freelancer or former WW big from the glory days, still in the industry and wanting an established IP, I'd be looking for the price to bottom out once the WoD MMO finally get the official ax. And it will. I don't think it's worth a whole lot NOW. They're not even top five in sales anymore.

Freelancers get paid almost nothing, even for the big companies. There are only a couple guys out there who can get away with not having some other job besides freelance RPG design, and they're not exactly living in luxury. I don't think it is really possible for the WW IP to get cheap enough for one of them to buy it, unless they're independently wealthy or something.

http://www.robertjschwalb.com/2011/06/crapping-on-your-dream-freelancing-101/

[tgr]

When CCP talks about the community what people here think they mean is Kugu/Failheap but what they actually mean is Eve O.  Half those guys at the bitter vets forums don't even subscribe any more and the rest never pay a penny.

The problem with the eve-o forums is that while they're the majority of the huggy-feely playerbase, I'll bet the vast majority of them are there because of the epic stories CCP keeps telling about players fucking other players over. Then they come in-game and learn that losses actually hurt.

I'll ask what I asked of pripyat on kugu, what do you think CCP should do to the empire pubpies then? Completely disallow ganking in hisec? Add more missions? Boost mining more?

Keep in mind that while they're doing this, 0.0 degrades even further. In fact, I'm still not entirely convinced that 0.0 can be saved in time, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

[Sir T]

One of the problems with the balance of 0.0/Highsec croud is that CCPs answer to it has always been "NERF HIGH SEC MISSIONS!!!" While any suggestion that high sec missioning is not a golden goose machine gunning golden eggs to fat and lasy highseccers will draw the fire of 100 frothing 0.0 neckbeards, the reality is that if you starve high sec people of cash they won't have the resources to go out and play in 0.0. Hell, Most high sec people I met recently when I flew around in high sec were dirt poor, and many would love to raid 0.0 occasionally for some fun PVP, but losing any kind of decently fit ship would break them.

The truth is that if you want more people in 0.0, then you have to boost peoples ability to make money to give them the ability to compete with the rich boys. If you are making less cash then your ability to absorb losses is less as well. Starving them of resources actually encourages them to stay in high sec, as after you have worked for weeks to get a HAC you are less likely to risk it in PVP. Nerfing high sec missions again and again like CCP has been doing to "encourage people to go to 0.0" is actually counter productive, in my view. And that could be the fault of the CSM or the general attitude of 0.0 players, or the fact that CCP are still a bunch of UO griefers at heart.

[Simond]

I don't even think EA would bother to buy CCP.

Maybe Activision instead, then. Bobby Kotick vs Hilmar - whoever wins, we lose. 

[Sheepherder]

Metzen writing EVE lore.

[tgr]

One of the problems with the balance of 0.0/Highsec croud is that CCPs answer to it has always been "NERF HIGH SEC MISSIONS!!!" While any suggestion that high sec missioning is not a golden goose machine gunning golden eggs to fat and lasy highseccers will draw the fire of 100 frothing 0.0 neckbeards, the reality is that if you starve high sec people of cash they won't have the resources to go out and play in 0.0. Hell, Most high sec people I met recently when I flew around in high sec were dirt poor, and many would love to raid 0.0 occasionally for some fun PVP, but losing any kind of decently fit ship would break them.

The truth is that if you want more people in 0.0, then you have to boost peoples ability to make money to give them the ability to compete with the rich boys. If you are making less cash then your ability to absorb losses is less as well. Starving them of resources actually encourages them to stay in high sec, as after you have worked for weeks to get a HAC you are less likely to risk it in PVP. Nerfing high sec missions again and again like CCP has been doing to "encourage people to go to 0.0" is actually counter productive, in my view. And that could be the fault of the CSM or the general attitude of 0.0 players, or the fact that CCP are still a bunch of UO griefers at heart.

When did they last actually nerf hisec missions to anywhere NEAR the level 0.0 got buttfucked?

[Sir T]

Your kidding, right? High sec missions are worth less than a quarter of their worth to when I started. The rats, the loot, and the payouts have all been slashed. I could earn 80 million in a night of grinding on a crappy system in 0.0, I'd be very lucky to earn 10 in a night of high sec missioning which would be a hell of a lot less enjoyable. And you have to grind for months to be able to do level 4s at all.

But the point is, to get people into 0.0 you need to be able to make them survive. As it is they might innocently wander into low sec with their newly tricked out ship they sank a months worth of effort into, get ganked by pirates, die inside 10 seconds and be broke afterwards. How would you feel if that happened to you? How is this nerfing encouraging you to wander out and take on bigger challenges?

[Kageru]

They're nerfing both I suspect, because Isk inflation scares them.

Using PvE advantages to get people into PvP territory is a pretty questionable mechanic anyway. It tends to mostly get used by renters funneling insane amounts of Isk into the wallets of their landlords. But then the other mechanic is moon mining and it's even worse.

[Modern Angel]

Freelancers get paid almost nothing, even for the big companies. There are only a couple guys out there who can get away with not having some other job besides freelance RPG design, and they're not exactly living in luxury. I don't think it is really possible for the WW IP to get cheap enough for one of them to buy it, unless they're independently wealthy or something.

http://www.robertjschwalb.com/2011/06/crapping-on-your-dream-freelancing-101/

Yeah, I totally dig. Don't misread me there. I know what the freelance payscale is like. Believe me, I know. I'm just anticipating a fire sale at some point in addition to thinking the WoD IP really isn't worth what people think.

[Sir T]

Yeah, you're probably right in all that.

They're nerfing both I suspect, because Isk inflation scares them.

Using PvE advantages to get people into PvP territory is a pretty questionable mechanic anyway. It tends to mostly get used by renters funneling insane amounts of Isk into the wallets of their landlords. But then the other mechanic is moon mining and it's even worse.

[Simond]

Metzen writing EVE lore.

The Jovians are secretly the Scourge!

[tgr]

Your kidding, right? High sec missions are worth less than a quarter of their worth to when I started.

Oh well, no risk and not quite as much isk. I'm literally crying inside.

But the point is, to get people into 0.0 you need to be able to make them survive. As it is they might innocently wander into low sec with their newly tricked out ship they sank a months worth of effort into, get ganked by pirates, die inside 10 seconds and be broke afterwards. How would you feel if that happened to you? How is this nerfing encouraging you to wander out and take on bigger challenges?

I'd take that as a lesson in not going into 0.0 with an expensive ship unless I had the means to replace it. Or, I could of course cry like a little baby over how unfair it was.

As to "need to be able to make them survive", what does this entail? Having multiple billion isk before going out there?

[Stabs]

It varies hugely from alliance to alliance. Last time I was out in 0.0 it was like, "ok stealth bombers tonight, zealots tomorrow" and we were expected to fly and have available ships for probably about 10 different doctrines. It kinda killed the fun for me. I actually had the isk but not all the skills and the logistics was a pain, especially when I brought out a load of ships (several hours work) and got told we don't fly those.

A player who just joined a very strong elite pvp corp posted yesterday as follows:

When I joined and was told Rote's home system, I immediately packed a couple of carriers with a broad selection from my stable of PvP ships, 15 ships in all, all BC and below.  I got API access to the forums as this was happening, and started trucking the carriers in.  My habit when I join a new alliance is to start with the ship-fitting section of the forums, and as I expected, this part of Rote's forums was extensive.  I started taking notes, concentrating on my first 15 ships.  Now of those 15, three of them were pretty specialized and not really anything where standard fittings are likely to exist (Buzzard, for instance).  Another was a type of ship that Rote doesn't even fly.  Of the remaining 11, I discovered to my horror that eight of them were fit in ways that Rote would find unacceptable for some reason.  Another, I classed as "maybe".  Only two of the 11 -- both faction frigates -- were clear "yeses", meaning that Rote would find them acceptable

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/crossroad.html

He goes on to add that he then carted out modules to refit and a second wave of ships.

I've tried the Just Come in a Tackler approach. Very few alliances are laid back. Every nullsec alliance I've been in has at some point had someone in authority absolutely furious that not enough people are flying the right ships fit the right way.

From a game design perspective the main thing I think need to happen is this:

It needs to matter less about what you fly. Groups of 20 players should generally beat groups of ten players. Possibly also with some kind of diminishing return on blobbing.

I don't know how to do that but that's the reason high sec players don't move to null. We're practically useless and will be useless for years. The only useful people have been cap pilots. With the cap nerf the only potent people will be blobbers.

It's just not attractive if the most you can realistically aspire to is to be cannon fodder for a pet.

[MahrinSkel]

Your kidding, right? High sec missions are worth less than a quarter of their worth to when I started.

Oh well, no risk and not quite as much isk. I'm literally crying inside.

But the point is, to get people into 0.0 you need to be able to make them survive. As it is they might innocently wander into low sec with their newly tricked out ship they sank a months worth of effort into, get ganked by pirates, die inside 10 seconds and be broke afterwards. How would you feel if that happened to you? How is this nerfing encouraging you to wander out and take on bigger challenges?

I'd take that as a lesson in not going into 0.0 with an expensive ship unless I had the means to replace it. Or, I could of course cry like a little baby over how unfair it was.

As to "need to be able to make them survive", what does this entail? Having multiple billion isk before going out there?

I went into 0.0 after 2 months in game, in T1 destroyers and Hoarders.  "Surviving" in 0.0 is flying what you can afford to lose, even if that's tin-can pieces of shit.

--Dave

[Nevermore]

I went into 0.0 after 2 months in game, in T1 destroyers and Hoarders.  "Surviving" in 0.0 is flying what you can afford to lose, even if that's tin-can pieces of shit.

--Dave

I know this might sound radical, but perhaps the game is different now from when you were 2 months into the game.

[tgr]

I know this might sound radical, but perhaps the game is different now from when you were 2 months into the game.

We still have uses for newbies in rifters. We may prefer people who are in maelstroms, scimitars, claymores, hurricanes etc, but we'll always take a pilot in a rifter along.

If the alliance says otherwise, then they're probably more focused on ~elite pvp~ or small gang pvp, where a small rifter may or may not survive to be remotely useful.

[Sir T]

Your kidding, right? High sec missions are worth less than a quarter of their worth to when I started.

Oh well, no risk and not quite as much isk. I'm literally crying inside.

But the point is, to get people into 0.0 you need to be able to make them survive. As it is they might innocently wander into low sec with their newly tricked out ship they sank a months worth of effort into, get ganked by pirates, die inside 10 seconds and be broke afterwards. How would you feel if that happened to you? How is this nerfing encouraging you to wander out and take on bigger challenges?

I'd take that as a lesson in not going into 0.0 with an expensive ship unless I had the means to replace it. Or, I could of course cry like a little baby over how unfair it was.

As to "need to be able to make them survive", what does this entail? Having multiple billion isk before going out there?

I'd just like to quote myself...

While any suggestion that high sec missioning is not a golden goose machine-gunning golden eggs to fat and lazy highseccers will draw the fire of 100 frothing 0.0 neckbeards,...

 

[Fordel]

EVE is fucking weird in that not only do the 'hardcore' blame the Victims, so does the game design.

[tgr]

Oh yes, that was me being a frothing 0.0 neckbeard.

I'm sorry I want 0.0 to be enticing the empire dwellers to move out there and stake their own claim and reap the rewards of actually forging their own path in the gameworld. Because mining and blowing up mission rats is sure to bring new blood to the game, the 0.0 drama is just such a chore.

[Reg]

I suspect that most empire dwellers on reading your last few messages would find the idea of going out to 0.0 to play with a bunch of people with your attitude anything but enticing.

[Fordel]

0.0 could be nothing but hookers and blow and empire players still wouldn't go out there because of what 0.0 is.


Most people just want to play the game they wan to play, without someone else's games fucking up their own.

[DLRiley]

Oh yes, that was me being a frothing 0.0 neckbeard.

I'm sorry I want 0.0 to be enticing the empire dwellers to move out there and stake their own claim and reap the rewards of actually forging their own path in the gameworld. Because mining and blowing up mission rats is sure to bring new blood to the game, the 0.0 drama is just such a chore.

Except 0.0 encompasses what 10% of EvE at best? Obviously mining and ratting is interesting for the 90% who keep EvE alive in the first place.

[Pezzle]

What incentive does the game offer a new player to try 0.0 pvp?  None.  In fact you will be punished.  Low sec is broken.  It does not function as a transition.  Go to low sec, get ganked by pirates on the gates.  What did you learn?  For vets to spout advice is helpful, but it is not always enough.  What is a frig going to do under gate guns in low sec?  You have to fly something larger and more expensive.

Why would they?  What incentive is there?  The untold riches of 0.0?  Living freelance out of npc 0.0?  The learning curve is murder and the rewards are slim.  If you were hyped about pvp in the first place incentives would not be as important but that is not the majority of players.  So they stay in high sec because it is familiar and safer.  There are still risks and jerks, you are simply better able to control your risk factors.  

I was lucky enough to start in a comparatively robust low sec area.  A handful of us ran about chasing hostiles.  I learned a great deal and it transitioned me into 0.0.  I get the feeling that kind of transition has become much harder to find.  There is certainly a lack of npc and mission incentive through most of low sec.  

One thing is certain, the fix should not involve nerfs of other income generation.  

[UnSub]

As soon as you have 2 games you've got a competition for resources; money, talent, executive favor.  You've got people trying to get off the old projects and onto the new hotness.  You've got empire builders with no talent sabotaging and driving out the people with talent because they don't want the competition.  You've got people working on projects they don't believe in and don't give a shit about.  You've got games being warped by a desire not to compete with prior titles, or a misplaced desire to limit costs by re-using technology not suited to all the games it's being applied to.

The right way to develop a new title would seem to be making only one game per company, spinning off new companies for new titles, and making the old company a senior investor in the new one (who will get paid first out of the proceeds of the new game).  No more 500+ employee behemoths trying to run old games while simultaneously working on new ones.  It just doesn't *work*.

This doesn't solve your problem. You still have two entities competing for resources, but now they are actively poaching them from each other, plus the extra costs of running two businesses instead of just one. I've bolded the relevant bits that would still apply. Plus if the New Studio Game flops, it still hits Original Game Studio hard because there goes their money, same as before.

What doesn't work is MMOs taking 5 - 7 years to be released and costing US$50m+ in costs at launch. Companies need a portfolio of titles to diversify their revenue streams and insulate them from any single failure, but this means running their old games while building new ones and it may mean a smaller budget for a much shorter time frame. It also means you start work on your next title pretty much as you launch a game, and would probably require better division between the Development Team(s) and the Live Team(s).

[tgr]

Except 0.0 encompasses what 10% of EvE at best? Obviously mining and ratting is interesting for the 90% who keep EvE alive in the first place.

Why did those 90% join? How many of those 90% are 0.0 alts? And what part of the game needs improvement the most for the entire game as a whole to stay healthy, viable and growing unlike what it has done the last year?

What incentive does the game offer a new player to try 0.0 pvp?  None.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that there's not much incentive to go to 0.0 at all at this point, except for all the drama. If I hadn't been in goonswarm already (or any reasonably newbie-friendly alliance, for that matter), chances are I'd just say "you know what? Fuck this nigger game", and moved on, because you can only really mine or do missions for so long before you start to /wrist.

[Rendakor]

Feeling a little racist this morning, eh?

[Modern Angel]

Haha, really? Really?

[Sir T]

There is certainly a lack of npc and mission incentive through most of low sec.  

One thing is certain, the fix should not involve nerfs of other income generation.  

Well, they did move all the best quality agents out into low sec. All that happened is nothing because oddly people didn't like coating their ships with salt and vinegar and serving them with chips.

[Sparky]

Your kidding, right? High sec missions are worth less than a quarter of their worth to when I started. The rats, the loot, and the payouts have all been slashed. I could earn 80 million in a night of grinding on a crappy system in 0.0, I'd be very lucky to earn 10 in a night of high sec missioning which would be a hell of a lot less enjoyable. And you have to grind for months to be able to do level 4s at all.

But the point is, to get people into 0.0 you need to be able to make them survive. As it is they might innocently wander into low sec with their newly tricked out ship they sank a months worth of effort into, get ganked by pirates, die inside 10 seconds and be broke afterwards. How would you feel if that happened to you? How is this nerfing encouraging you to wander out and take on bigger challenges?

Choose your LP rewards carefully and 60 mil an hour is very doable casually running level 4s. 
Mindlessly running the same shit everyone else does(eg Navy missions) and yeah you earn a pittance.

[eldaec]

The best incursions are in low sec, no idea why there is only one of them ofc.

[Pezzle]

There is certainly a lack of npc and mission incentive through most of low sec.  

One thing is certain, the fix should not involve nerfs of other income generation.  

Well, they did move all the best quality agents out into low sec. All that happened is nothing because oddly people didn't like coating their ships with salt and vinegar and serving them with chips.

Simply moving around existing resources is NOT the solution.  You would think after all these years of spreadsheets CCP would figure that out. 

[tgr]

Well, they did move all the best quality agents out into low sec. All that happened is nothing because oddly people didn't like coating their ships with salt and vinegar and serving them with chips.

Last I heard, "best quality" doesn't exist anymore. I can't be arsed to run missions, so I couldn't possibly say either way, but I seem to remember CCP readjusting all agents to basically be a -20 agent, and that at least a few level 4's were still in hisec systems with nothing but hisec systems around them.

[Sparky]

+20 for rewards, -20 for standings needed to access them.  Right after nerfing the shit out of 0.0 anomalies!

[Stabs]

Except 0.0 encompasses what 10% of EvE at best? Obviously mining and ratting is interesting for the 90% who keep EvE alive in the first place.

Why did those 90% join?

For all sorts of reasons, it's a sandbox. Some people really do play Eve to fly around collecting screenshots or to roleplay.

How many of those 90% are 0.0 alts?

I'd guess most 0.0 players spend 50/50 time between their nullsec characters and their high sec money earners. In many cases they'll be flying with the fleet with a miner or trader in a second window. Leaving 80% high sec only.

And what part of the game needs improvement the most for the entire game as a whole to stay healthy, viable and growing unlike what it has done the last year?

CCP's answer would be DUST. The Dust-Eve relationship has to be really exciting with people playing Eve thinking I wish I played Dust, people playing Dust thinking I wish I played Eve. Their best case scenario is each game advertising and energising the other.

From my point of view I'd like to see young alliances viable for nullsec. It's a closed club. Goons were the last new alliance to force their way in against hostiles, some younger alliances like Test have got in on someone else's coattails. If someone works really hard to get 500 newbs they should be able to carve out a corner somewhere in some out of the way and undesired part of nullsec.

because you can only really mine or do missions for so long before you start to /wrist.

You're wrong. Casual, low stakes gameplay is the majority way of playing video games. Eve can be played as a low stakes casual game. Speak for yourself by all means but don't generalise that no one can play a video game unless it's heart thumping sweating tension and frenetic action.

[eldaec]

EVE can be played as a casual low stakes game, but mining and missioning isn't it. In both cases the stake you put up is worth months of 'work'.

The only genuine low stakes casual games I can think of immediately in EVE are PI and flying with an alliance fleet in a tackling rifter.

Neither are especially easy for a newbie to chance their way in to.