Mists of Pandaria

[Lantyssa]

They suck because they're not getting the buff he didn't take.

[Merusk]

And about the communion thing - I really don't know how you don't take that talent. And this dude very often complains about how people in his pug suck.

That's just begging for a /g beatdown, then.  At least the idiot fillers in my guilds weren't mouthing off about how everyone else sucked.

[Malakili]

Last time I went to LFR I literally got shouted at for doing too much damage. I'm not joking. Something along the lines of "if you're doing the fight right, you'd be doing as much damage as everyone else". Right. Good thing I don't need anything on both characters I'm playing right now, so I don't have to go till Pandas.

And about the communion thing - I really don't know how you don't take that talent. And this dude very often complains about how people in his pug suck.

I've found that a lot of people are just really oblivious when it comes to math.  I mean, even easy, intuitive, simple, math.  They see something like 3% raid damage and 2% personal damage and think "3 and 2 are small numbers, that looks bad."  People don't see the big picture very well.

[Rokal]

Last time I went to LFR I literally got shouted at for doing too much damage. I'm not joking. Something along the lines of "if you're doing the fight right, you'd be doing as much damage as everyone else". Right. Good thing I don't need anything on both characters I'm playing right now, so I don't have to go till Pandas.

Let me guess, Spine? The few times I ran LFR on alts, there has always been a few idiots in the group that continue to dps the amalgamation when it's low and doesn't have 9 stacks of heat, or continue to kill the corrupted tentacles after the first has died. They probably assumed that if you were doing a lot more dps than everyone else, you were dpsing things that you shouldn't have been. Most of my time (as a healer or dps) on spine is spent twiddling my thumbs waiting. The fight is pretty exciting on normal usually but it's just boring on LFR.

[Wolf]

nah yorsahj. LFR spine as a healer is... there's no debuff so there's literally nothing to heal.

[Fordel]

Your all thinking too small, I've seen Moonkins not spec Eclipse and ProtWarriors not spec ShieldSlam back when those things were talents. 

[Ironwood]

Hmmm, unless you were doing damage on those stacky things, I don't get it.

[Simond]

Or to put it another way, Blizzard used that logic and made Cataclysm.
See how that turned out?  

What? No.

Cataclysm (end-game at least) was designed for the "It's fine, lern 2 plae" crowd which is why it's made Blizzard lose close to two million subscribers (and prompted the near-apology a couple of pages back).

And speaking of near-apologies: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3881921390?page=2#33

There are advantages and disadvantages to linear questlines.

The advantages tend to flow from the effort to build epic stories for players to be a part of. When you put the player into a linear questline, you can more easily incorporate dramatic elements like foreshadowing, plot twists, and a satisfying climax that you know the player is going to be there for.

The disadvantages have been well-covered: If you're isolated into a personal story too much, you lose the sense of being in an open world that is filled with alternative potential adventures. It's more difficult to hop around and partake of the glories of several different zones at the same time, and harder to join up with friends whenever you like. Group quests become less-desirable.

As Dave Kosak and others have said before, we think we may have gone a bit too linear with Cataclysm. That informs one of our big philosophies for Mists of Pandaria: Give players more flexibility to play how they want to. We think that the solution may be to have linear story arcs, but have more of them in each zone, rather than making the whole zone one big story with a beginning, middle, and end. In addition to multiple linear quest lines, there will be smaller (and in some cases, one-off) quest hubs, and some of those hubs may be well off the beaten path.

To make that work, we've got to tweak the orientation of quest achievements. Rather than "vacuum up every single quest in the zone", we're aiming for achievements that reward completing the main story arcs. All in all, players should feel less like their time spent playing in a zone is exactly the same as every other player.

Linear, zone-length questlines are bad, mmkay? (To which, the SWTOR devs are now going "Oh shit, we copied the wrong style of quest design"  )

[Ironwood]

It's kinda obvious though.

The whole Firelands thing shows that enormously when you go to do the high level content and realise that because you skipped Hyjal entirely, you are going to be BORED before you get anywhere.

Fuck that.

[Ingmar]

(To which, the SWTOR devs are now going "Oh shit, we copied the wrong style of quest design"  )

Actually SWTOR's design is much closer to what their stated goal for Pandaria is - one long planet story with lots of side quests and some extra hubs, etc. Which you'd know if you had actually played it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

(To which, the SWTOR devs are now going "Oh shit, we copied the wrong style of quest design"  )

Actually SWTOR's design is much closer to what their stated goal for Pandaria is - one long planet story with lots of side quests and some extra hubs, etc. Which you'd know if you had actually played it.

I disagree.  I've played through the first two planets on imperial side and while not everything is one big long quest, the rails are pretty goddamn obvious.  At no point do I feel like there was any sort of alternative path.  Not everything was all from the main questline though, I'll grant them that but it very much feels like you are just making every stop long the planned route.

[Ingmar]

I didn't say 'exactly the same' as their plan for MoP. I think it closer to that than it is to Cata after 75 levels of leveling or so.

[Sjofn]

There are advantages and disadvantages to linear questlines.

The advantages tend to flow from the effort to build epic stories for players to be a part of. When you put the player into a linear questline, you can more easily incorporate dramatic elements like foreshadowing, plot twists, and a satisfying climax that you know the player is going to be there for.

If only Blizzard had anyone capable of writing dramatic elements like foreshadowing, plot twists, and a satisfying climax worth a shit.

[Merusk]

Yeah SWTOR is  more WOTLK's daisy-chained hubs with each hub having a story than Cata's "Ok, each quest is a piece of a greater story."  Does each hub in TOR send you to similar areas? Yes.  Are they all for the same quest/ story? No.

Example:
Character Story:  "Hey, my Sith Apprentice.. go see what this guy is doing at XYZ and kill person abc"
Planet Story:  "Well great, you've accomplished lmn, now go to XYZ and help soandso with this plot mcguffin."
Node Story:
 At the flight point for XYZ:
  "Hey, Sith Guy; Can you help me kill / scan/ harvest/ whatever these things since you'll be in the area anyway.."

In the kill area:  Bonus Quest "Kill x foozles while you're here doing the other 3 things"

[Rokal]

SWTOR quest pacing actually felt pretty refreshing to me. Some zones seemed more linear than others, but there were actually quests off the beaten path on Hutta that I felt like I could have missed if I rushed through the zone. Between the rare slightly-hidden quests, datacrons, and rare mobs, the game felt like it was rewarding me a little bit for exploring instead of staring at the 'next quest objective' arrow on my minimap.

I think they're on the right track for MoP quest design. Smaller stories, less obvious rails. I appreciate that they tried to make every quest in leveling zones matter for the story, but by the end of each zone you're bored of the story they're trying to tell (and all the mobs are grey so the story was all you had left)

Disabling flying till 90 will also be an improvement. I actually wish they'd disable flying at 90 for the first 2-3 months as well. Give people some time to enjoy the zones without hurting their leveling efficiency, give people a better chance to be on equal footing for world pvp (world pvp doesn't die after 1 week when people get to 90 and can harass players who are still leveling without flying mounts), and still have flying available for alts when people get to that point and they just want to get additional characters to 90 asap.

[Sjofn]

SWTOR quest pacing actually felt pretty refreshing to me. Some zones seemed more linear than others, but there were actually quests off the beaten path on Hutta that I felt like I could have missed if I rushed through the zone. Between the rare slightly-hidden quests, datacrons, and rare mobs, the game felt like it was rewarding me a little bit for exploring instead of staring at the 'next quest objective' arrow on my minimap.

Ha, my third time through Hutta (once in beta, twice now in LIVE) I found a quest I had no idea existed. Did I feel silly! And sort of pleased I found it.

Anyway, the linearity works for me in SWTOR, but it did not work for me in Cataclysm. Partly because the story was fucking terrible, partly because the zones went on too long, and partly because I couldn't skip shit I didn't like on the way to cap the way I could in WotLK (I did, luckily, like the Sons of Hodir shit, the only thing that I think was really 'required' to do level-up-wise). Essentially taking away the one level up choice you DID have (Hyjal versus Vashj'ir) was even worse.

[Wolf]

Wait WoW has a story? I'm sorry I was too busy clicking accept because noone is talking to me. 

Hmmm, unless you were doing damage on those stacky things, I don't get it.

I was barely bothering with the oozes, the ones that give the boss buffs. Not like they died slow too...

[Rendakor]

With sufficient xp bonuses (BOAs, rest, guild levels) you can get from 80-85 in ~3 zones; only on my first toon did I have to suffer both Vash and Uldum.

[Lantyssa]

If only Blizzard had anyone capable of writing dramatic elements like foreshadowing, plot twists, and a satisfying climax worth a shit.

They certainly never game me a satisfying climax.

[Sjofn]

I know, the fuckers. 

[El Gallo]

If only Jaina had an electric choke collar I could torture her with until she decided she loved me.  

[Sheepherder]

Umm, what?

[Simond]

Umm, what?

One of the SWTOR companions is a slave in an electric shock collar whom you can torture until she loves you.
(She then wants you to carry on using the collar as part of foreplay).

[El Gallo]

(She then wants you to carry on using the collar as part of foreplay).

Holy crap I didn't even know about that part.  :Bioware:

[Ingmar]

I'm pretty sure you have to take the collar away to progress that relationship, actually. The 'dark side' romance option for that class is with another character entirely.

[El Gallo]

I'm pretty sure you have to take the collar away to progress that relationship, actually. The 'dark side' romance option for that class is with another character entirely.

Do I need to get her a new fut coat too, or just stop actually battering her until after the vows and she starts asking for it again?

[Ingmar]

I didn't say it wasn't fucked up as is. 

[Miasma]

Guess there won't be a blizzcon this year.  They say they're too busy.  Time for some wildly inaccurate speculation.

[Rokal]

Theoretically MoP and Diablo 3 will both be out before Q4, which means the only thing they'd really have to show at the event would be the SC2 expansion.

[Paelos]

Theoretically MoP and Diablo 3 will both be out before Q4, which means the only thing they'd really have to show at the event would be the SC2 expansion.

MoP almost certainly. I was under the impression though that Diablo 3 just had it's guts ripped out and went into the rehaul bin.

[Wolf]

my tinfoil hat theory is that the whole of blizzard is working on the Pandas so they can get them out for may/june at latest.

[Paelos]

I'd like to see what they put out. If they push it to June it has potential to get people involved again that are into SWTOR full force. Updates will play a part I think.

[Fordel]

MoP has to be relatively soon, they can't pull another WotLK and wait a year between content updates.

[Rendakor]

MoP has to be relatively soon, they can't pull another WotLK and wait a year between content updates.

This. I'm already down to logging in once or twice a week to check auctions. We've stopped raiding because most of us can't be bothered to wipe for hours on hardmodes just to get gear that'll be replaced with greens. Kinda kicking myself for signing up for the yearly pass, but I didn't expect either a) SWTOR to be so much fun or b) Dragon Soul to be so easy.

[Rokal]

Best Buy had that leaked Diablo 3 "February 1st" cardboard advertisement. I think Diablo 3 was on track for a February release date, which they backed away from committing to when it became clear that they wanted to make some large changes to the game. Still, if they were that close to release, you would think the changes they've outlined (removing a few professions, redoing some details about loot) shouldn't delay the game too much. I doubt they want Diablo 3 and MoP launching directly competing with each other within a short window, so my bet is MoP Summer, Diablo 3 fall.