Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)

[Draegan]

This is a spoiler thread, no need to put everything in spoilers right?

Anyway, the end of the last book and how the next one will begin is pretty obvious. 

Also, I'm really really interested in the plot line that we didn't get a sniff of in the last book with what is happening in Oldtown.

[ghost]

He could have written the past two books in five chapters.

[Draegan]

I really loved the 4th book.  Book 5, not so much.

[Threash]

Really? exact opposite for me, book 4 would have been good if i cared more about the characters but i didn't so i didn't particularly like it.  It was still good story telling, the Samwell/Dorne/Brienne/Iron Men stuff was fine but it is not what or who i wanted to read about.

[ghost]

Well, as it stands there are so many loose fucking ends that he won't be able to finish it up in 10 books.   

[Ruvaldt]

That assumes he'll tie up all of the loose ends though.  I think good storytelling is the kind which leaves some mystery behind.  Plus, it's not really a cohesive story like, say, the Lord of the Rings trilogy in which there was an obvious beginning and end.  The series could've begun with the War of the Usurper or any number of other events; the ending will be the same way if Martin lives long enough to write it.

[shiznitz]

I am re-reading Feast now before I start Dance and I have to say that I am enjoying it much more now than I remember when I first read it 7 years ago.  I read the first 4 almost back to back to back to back so Feast might have suffered in comparison at the time or just suffered from overall Martin fatigue.

[Tale]

I just finished books 1-5 for the first time. Some thoughts sparked by posts in this thread:

[eldaec]

On Tale's stuff.


1. My concern by the end of book 5 about that was there are only 2 books theoretically left and we don't know anything about the 'main' event.

2. Jon Snow broke an oath and from the very first prologue we're told how that means you end up dead. I'll be pretty disappointed if he turns straight into a Catelyn style zombie. I imagine he'll live on within Ghost and eventually meet up with Benjen and Brandon. We know bodies can be preserved in the cold at the wall, maybe he does shit and later gets to reawaken after saving the wildlings in the north.

3. Could be right, I also think he helps maintain the belief that Dany is the answer to everything. I really find it hard to see her conquering Westeros but clearly Martin wants us to think that she will.

[ghost]

I'm hoping that Tyrion gets hooked up with Daeny and slaps her silly bitch ass straight.   

[Merusk]

Technically book 5 was actually Book4 pt2, so we've got 3 more books to go.

[ghost]

I don't think Jon Snow is dead, I think that the R'hllor witch, Melisndre, had a double in for him just like with Mance Rayder's execution. 

[Bunk]

Nah, he's dead. He has a wolf named Ghost. That to me is something Martin setup in book one, fully planning to have Jon's "ghost" inhabit his wolf.

[eldaec]

If he's not dead GRRM needs to get in his delorean, head back to the early nineties and redact all those passages when half the cast from Gared, to Master Cressen, to Robb Stark, drops dead as a direct result of oath breaking.

Even Jaquen shits his pants at the prospect of an oath being at risk.


More interesting is where that note came from. I'm not convinced it came from Ramsey. He's not smart enough to kill Jon by raven.

[Tale]

Nah, he's dead. He has a wolf named Ghost. That to me is something Martin setup in book one, fully planning to have Jon's "ghost" inhabit his wolf.

Hmm yeah he could tem up with Summer, Nymeria and her pack. They could probably bring the big pig into line and be part of the war. Warg corps.

[Zaljerem]

Regarding Jon Snow: We know from the Varamyr prologue and from Bran/Hodor that wargs can take other human's bodies. We know from the whole Beric/Catelyn resurrection that people can come back to life. Melisandre's visions see Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again.

Taking all of the above, he's dead but he'll be back, first in Ghost and then as a man, possibly even his old body. That's my guess.

[Khaldun]

The only thing that bugs me about this whole train of thought is that it seems more and more like "normal fantasy": the prophecy of the hero, the last-minute save from armageddon, etc.

It almost seems opposite to what Martin's been doing overall with the series. I'd almost expect the whole thing to be an elaborate fake-out, to have Jon be dead-dead, Melisandre the inexpert interpreter of weird delirious imagery being sent to her by a force beyond human understanding, and the walkers to be unbeatable.

I'd actually settle for the series winding up to a where the political rivalries in Westeros become irrelevant as winter kills most and the walkers kill the rest, the few survivors of whatever faction gather in King's Landing, and the story becomes less "who will defeat the White Walkers, save the land and sit on the Iron Throne" and more "who will be able to delay the walkers long enough to Dunkirk the last five thousand Westeros people off the continent into an uncertain future across the Narrow Sea." Maybe he could have Dany and Tyrion be the rulers of a ragged city of ghosts and survivors, since I think by that time the three of them will be pretty expert about those lands. And Westeros just settles into an unending winter under the control of snow zombies who have to deal with occasional terrorist attacks by Bran hanging around in the weirwoods.

It just doesn't feel like this series should end with heroic sacrifices, some kind of magic McGuffin, a prophecy fulfilled, the proper heirs with the proper blood restored to their proper throne, any of that stuff.

[Merusk]

King's Landing wouldn't be the last redoubt,  Dorne would be.  They've mentioned a few times that winter never reaches Dorne.  Following the "all the tropes are broken and everything people say is shown to be BS" setup, this Winter would.

[Chimpy]

I love how everyone thinks there is some grand plan for the whole series. Martin has said he wanted to write about the War of the Roses but in a fantasy setting. That tells me his whole premise is writing about politics/incest/intruige/etc. and not about some grand overarching plot. Maybe he does have an endgame in mind, but I can't bring myself to really even care if he does. I will borrow the next one from the library in a couple five years when it comes out, and be underwhelmed like I was with the last one.

[eldaec]

One thing people misread in the early books was the idea that 'anything' can happen and  'nobody is safe'.

It really was standard fantasy from the start. Just well hidden because it goes slowly and you see it from limited points of view.

Everything is subject to inviolable prophecy. People live and die according to a specific code, and to serve narrative themes/morals. 'Shit happens' was never a theme.

The clever part was showing that from the micro scale so that it isn't initially obvious, and having most of the characters make the same mistake of thinking people like Rheagar or Ned died because they stood on their honour.

Ned Stark didn't die because of his honor, he died because he considered Cersei Lannister beneath him. Robb Stark didn't die because of political intrigue, he died because he broke his oath.

But the really clever part will be how you close it all out in a satisfying way while sticking to this method of storytelling. I think FoC and DwD really needed to set up the 'magic vs non magic' conflict the way GoT set up the war of five kings. As it stands I really don't see 2 books being nearly enough.

My guess is the ending will see the citadel beat off the whoever is bringing the magic (Quaithe?) and westeros separate back into 7 kingdoms (crowns for everyone). But just giving everyone who needs it a death or a redemption under that structure isn't going to leave much space for the plot.

[Merusk]

Two books certainly won't be enough with where he's painted himself into.  The problem being he's 65 and not in the best of shape, so I'd put money on there not being a 'next' book much less two or three.

[tazelbain]

I see it as the Game of Thrones and the dead are for the most part bad players.  Ned in particular thought that the whole Game was beneath him not just Cersai.

[eldaec]

Ned wasn't a bad player, Manderly's story confirmed it wasn't just Arryn who won the throne for Robert, not to mention smashing the iron island rebellion, and keeping a Targareyn heir up his sleeve for 20 years.

[Arthur_Parker]

I don't even think it'll be that complicated

Book stuff btw He is stabbed, but nothing in the book indicates that he is killed from the stabbings. I'm sure someone(thing) will save him from a mortal stab wound

His wolf is called 'Ghost'.
He's a Stark.
The wildlings called him a warg, other wargs survived in animals after dying.
ALSO HIS WOLF IS CALLED GHOST.
So...

Noit to mention this handy little passage from the last book which specifically TELLS you exactly what is going to happen: 

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, lined in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

The problem with that though is that the book 5 intro goes out of it's way to tell us about how untrained as a warg he is. Also it tells us about how a man in a wolf's personality will eventually disappear. I think Murdoc's explanation is more likely than Jon Snow, boy Wolf, no matter how many capital letters you use.

If you want to be practical about it (though prophecy and symbolism is far more reliable) the problem with "he's not quite dead" is that it leaves him stuck at the wall as a deserter. The watch would have to keep stabbing him until he really was dead.

Going off as the wolf gets him away from the wall, with a body back at the wall, which we have conspicuously been told has cells which preserve bodies. It also gives the watch an excuse to accept that Jon's watch is ended. Plus we're repeatedly told of the importance if saving the people gathering North of the wall.

Back on symbolism, he's now been born a second time in smoke and salt, AP mentions direct prophecy above, and oathbreakers always have to pay a price.

From the TV thread, I removed the spoilers tags, I'll reread this thread from the start as I've kinda gotten over my disappointment with the last book by now.

[Threash]

We really need a tv show thread for book readers, not just a show thread and a book thread.

[Merusk]

That's been suggested many times, but nobody's started it.  I don't have HBO and only catch the show when season DVDs come out so I'm not starting it.

I originally interpreted Mel's vision as a simple statement that John was a warg, surrounded by people who were intent on killing him, not a prophecy about his future. Although, his face disappearing half-seen would lend more to that theory than my own reading.

Still, will be be reborn the way Cat and and the Knight have been, or inhabit some other body because he's just special and won't have to learn the way the wildling did?

Come to think of it.. he won't have to learn.  Bran will teach him how, as he's already doing it with Hodor and has tried contacting John a few times already.  He'll teach John so he doesn't get lost in Ghost, then take-over some noble's body so he can marry Dany and unite the lands.  What candidate for being possessed?

[Arthur_Parker]

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow

Above from a Dany vision I believe.

I can't see Jon permanently stealing a body from anyone who still had a use for it, seems too much like "bad magic".  If we're looking around for for bodies to stick him in, Others/White Walkers have blue eyes, maybe his own body gets animated after death and he could retake control of it?

[Cheddar]

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow

Above from a Dany vision I believe.

I can't see Jon permanently stealing a body from anyone who still had a use for it, seems too much like "bad magic".  If we're looking around for for bodies to stick him in, Others/White Walkers have blue eyes, maybe his own body gets animated after death and he could retake control of it?

Ooooh good theory.  This has been done before (cold hands).

[Arthur_Parker]

I haven't really delved into the possible plot lines before, but picking up on this Threash's comment.

Aegon my ass, that's the son of Illyrio and a Blackfyre former whore.

Yeah, I'd buy that, the fake Dragon.

Also on Tyrion, Aerys, the Mad King had a thing for Tyrion's mother? 

Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"You... you are no... no son of mine." Tywin's last words

The dragon has 3 heads.

Daenerys Targaryen
Tyrion Lannister Targaryen (her half brother)
Jon Snow Targaryen (her nephew)

[Ingmar]

I believe that is the most common theory for the 3 heads thing right now, yes.

[Merusk]

I hadn't heard a theory about Tyrion.  Would certainly explain a few things.

* Naming his hated dwarf child a name so close to his own. Tyrion was twisted from birth, but it would be a way of reclaiming something of his pride.
* Treating the last vestige of his beloved wife like shit.  It's not his kid that killed her.
* As it's not his kid, it's made him even more bitter and angry that Tyrion's the best of the bunch.  Underscores the idea that Lannister blood is not fit to rule in any capacity.

[Threash]

I haven't really delved into the possible plot lines before, but picking up on this Threash's comment.

Aegon my ass, that's the son of Illyrio and a Blackfyre former whore.

Yeah, I'd buy that, the fake Dragon.

Yeah, there's the whole "mummer's dragon" thing.  The Golden Company, who's only reason for existence was to put the Blackfyres in power.  Septon Meribald tells Brienne and Pod a story about an Inn with a black dragon sign that had it taken down and thrown in the river once the Blackfyres rebelled and took it as their symbol, but the head washed back ashore red with rust.  And Illiryo marrying a whore? who happened to have silver hair?

[Phred]

  What candidate for being possessed?

I don't think Theon is very happy with his life currently.

[Arthur_Parker]

I hadn't heard a theory about Tyrion.  Would certainly explain a few things.

* Naming his hated dwarf child a name so close to his own.  was twisted from birth, but it would be a way of reclaiming something of his pride.
* Treating the last vestige of his beloved wife like shit.  It's not his kid that killed her.
* As it's not his kid, it's made him even more bitter and angry that Tyrion's the best of the bunch.  Underscores the idea that Lannister blood is not fit to rule in any capacity.

I like the symmetry of Tyrion killing Jaime's father, years after Jaime had killed Tyrion's father.  Their mother is still a true born Lannister, just as Jon's mother is a true Stark.

Though the symmetry still works if Tyrion is Tywin's only true child and Cersei & Jaime are children of Aerys....

[Arthur_Parker]

Cersei, I've never liked the character nor understood why she needs a viewpoint, so she's probably the easier twin to figure out over Jaime.

Cersei:"When will I wed the prince?"
Maggy:"Never. You will wed the king."
Cersei:"I will be queen, though?"
Maggy:"Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Cersei:"Will the king and I have children?"
Maggy:"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
Maggy:"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar is apparently the High Valyrian word for "little brother", so assuming Tyrion and the Twins have a different father, Jamie or Tyrion will kill her, but only after all three of her children are dead.

So again, it could go either way which seems to indicate George put all this in place for a reason.

Ser Barristan to Daenerys:
"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

Might hint at twin Targaryen's, Jamie being the third head of the Dragon, but Tyrion had Dragon dreams when young.

Jon wonders why he reads of dragons when they are all dead, and Tyrion replies that he used to dream of having a dragon of his own and started fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock that he would stare at for hours. Sometimes he would imagine that Tywin was burning in the fire; other times it was Cersei.
...
Tyrion complements him for facing a hard truth rather than ignoring it and says he hardly ever dreams of dragons anymore.

I'd guess Tyrion is the more likely a Targaryen so less liable to be true, but Tyrion is better traveled in the seven kingdoms, been to the wall, talks with Maester Aemon (a Targaryen Great Grand Uncle), already friends with Jon and about to meet Dany.