NHL 2012

[Paelos]

The Toronto Maple Leafs are officially out of the playoffs... again. We will be the only team since the NHL lockout, to not make the playoffs now. We have not won a HOME game since the first week of February.

Plan the fucking parade people, plan the fucking parade.

Do we need to put up suicide nets in Toronto?

[Fordel]

Everyone is too apathetic to jump.

[Abagadro]

The first period of this Flyers/Penguins game is nuts. 3 guys already tossed.

[Ginaz]

The first period of this Flyers/Penguins game is nuts. 3 guys already tossed.

That whole series has been nuts.  The Pens have really shit the bed, and they've done it to themselves.  All the extra rough stuff hasn't helped but their goal tending has been horrible and they haven't played defence.  I've found this years playoffs, overall, to have a lot more mean and nasty games than in years past.  Things should settle down a bit in the second round on.

[Stewie]

Things should settle down a bit in the second round on.

I really don't think they will.
I think the blueprint was established by the bruins last year of gooning it up to win and was essentially endorsed by the NHL for allowing it to go on.

[Hoax]

It will settle down in the west for sure. The Flyers will continue to be a dirty team and Boston will continue to be Boston if they get past Ovechkin in the east but especially IF the Canucks go down in the first round there isn't much reason to imagine a Coyotes/Blues v Kings series or anything involving the Wings or Sharks to be especially full of that stuff.

Look at the big hit Brown landed on Sedin the other night, that was the kind of hitting that I hope still has a place in hockey. The equivalent of the now phased out big hit on a WR going across the middle.

Also would the Rangers or Devils put up with this kind of shit from Boston/Philly? Honest question I know almost nothing of those teams this year.

[Hoax]

One more thing, people are pissed about the 3 game 1 game suspensions in the Ottawa v NYR series and to be honest I sort of get it. Basically the message the league is sending is, if you want to rough someone up you can call up a rough guy, put him on the ice, have him go out there and start some shit WITH ANOTHER ROUGH GUY ON THE OPPOSITE TEAM and he'll get penalized and tossed but if that's what you've got to do that's what you've got to do.

It might not sound fair and you might not be able to codify it in the rules but it should be ok to fight and rough up players who fight and rough up your players while its not ok to try to kill some 15 year vet who is a finesse player and doesn't fight or some little rookie who isn't big enough to fight. If the Senators had sent the goon onto the ice and gone after someone else, someone not a part of the Ranger's hit squad I would hope that it would be a 3+ game suspension but fuck Boyle he had it coming.

However, blowing up someone away from the play with a dirty violent hit that targets the head (the hit on Alfredsson is one of the worst we've seen so far imo) within the flow of play, at game speed, that's fucked up. I don't know why Boyle looked like such a bitch OH WAIT YES I DO he was drawing a fucking penalty just like they do in soccer. That punch didn't knock him out or any shit like that.  He was all over Eriksson in game one no problem and if he can dish it out he can take it. Alfredsson isn't fighting anybody he's not roughing anyone up and to take a run at him like that 100% for the sake of taking a run at him? That's the shit that pushes things over the edge.

You watch the Alfredsson hit, the guy is doing everything he can to shy away from the contact and the Ranger's player is having none of it and makes sure he hits him hard in the head. That has to be textbook headhunting and frankly if they had suspended him for five games I wouldn't have found it upsetting in the slightest. Control does need to be reasserted.

*my bad this post is such a mess, I kept watching the hits and other video analysis while I was writing different parts*

[Ceryse]

Until they do something extreme like suspending players until their victim returns from injury for out-right dirty plays (i.e. headhunting) it will not change, nor should it (because its the smart thing to do if you're less valuable than the victim -- dirty, ruthless and shitty, but smart). Keep current suspensions similar if the player doesn't get hurt, but double them for the out-right dirty type of plays -- regardless of whether its the first game of the season or the first game of the Stanley Cup finals.

But if they do that they'd have to actually start calling a lot of players out for the bullshit crap they do like putting themselves in a vulnerable position in the hopes of getting hit and drawing a powerplay and/or suspension, the diving and so on, which they don't. Currently too much onus is on the person laying the hit even in circumstances where they aren't completely or at all to blame.

Won't ever happen, however. The NHLPA wouldn't allow it, nor would certain powerful, influential GMs/owners.

As for rough and tumble types going after star players? All for it. So long as they keep it clean, toss the instigator rule so the non-fighters have to answer the bell when they do something stupid (Neal, for a recent example).

But as the league currently is; yes, putting out some piece of shit fourth liner (at best) to essentially head hunt is a good idea that would be more prevalent if coaches weren't scared shitless of the possible fallout if they got caught endorsing it.

[MournelitheCalix]

I was at the Sharks/Blues Game 2.  The hit by Galiardi on MacDonald was textbook head hunting.  Especially considering MacDonald is an impact guy who has been recovering from a concussion.  I really would like to know why Shanahan didn't think this was worthy of a game suspension.

On a side note the intensity of the games has been great.  Normally there is a lot of talk about how teams turn it up a notch come the playoffs.  They are actually doing it this year. I am looking forward to Blues/Sharks game three.  It should be entertaining especially with Galiardi mouthing off and doubly so if the game gets out of hand.

[Hoax]

I was at the Sharks/Blues Game 2.  The hit by Galiardi on MacDonald was textbook head hunting.  Especially considering MacDonald is an impact guy who has been recovering from a concussion.  I really would like to know why Shanahan didn't think this was worthy of a game suspension.

On a side note the intensity of the games has been great.  Normally there is a lot of talk about how teams turn it up a notch come the playoffs.  They are actually doing it this year. I am looking forward to Blues/Sharks game three.  It should be entertaining especially with Galiardi mouthing off and doubly so if the game gets out of hand.

You are fucking insane. THE PUCK WAS AT HIS FEET. It can't be that dirty just because he "left his feet" and it looked like a pretty big impact. He wasn't head hunting he was doing exactly what they tell "energy" 3rd/4th liners to do. Yes he shouldn't leave his feet but he was making a play on the puck that play doesn't belong anywhere in this discussion and the league knows it and Shanahan knows it too thank god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heAWVAD-3mI

For real, I don't know what kind of fucked up angle you saw that from but watch it again for me and tell me that hit calls for suspensions, you are out of your fucking mind. Please someone with no team in this series feel free to back me up here. He has the puck, he's not defenseless, he's on the boards already, he's the one ducking down...

[Paelos]

Not a dirty hit from anything I've ever seen. Granted I only watched hockey from about 1993 to 2003, but when I think dirty headhunting I think of fuckers like Claude Lemieux.

That's not a clean hit, and it got a penalty, but I don't think he's headhunting. He went into the shoulder and the puck is there. It's the offensive guy's fault for trying to play a puck with his head down between his feet that is looks remotely dirty.

The weird part is that nobody gets called for anything else but a charge.

[Ceryse]

The hit by Galliardi isn't 'clean' or 'legal' due to the fact he left his feet -- but that's the only reason its not a clean hit and a 2 minute penalty is the proper degree of punishment.

Its only more than that if its an intentional hit to the head or he doesn't let up on a player that is defenseless (which he wasn't -- MacDonald was being an idiot and nothing else) since the puck was right there.

[MournelitheCalix]

You are fucking insane. THE PUCK WAS AT HIS FEET. It can't be that dirty just because he "left his feet" and it looked like a pretty big impact. He wasn't head hunting he was doing exactly what they tell "energy" 3rd/4th liners to do. Yes he shouldn't leave his feet but he was making a play on the puck that play doesn't belong anywhere in this discussion and the league knows it and Shanahan knows it too thank god.

Well according to that inconvenient thing called a rule book you can't leave your feet while checking and that is what Galiardi did and that is really the end of the story.  According to many past rulings by the director of player safety Brendan Shanahan you can not leave your feet while checking, the checkers is responsible for the position of his body at all times, and he has justified suspensions of players with that as one of the given reasons so there is a precidence.  Sorry Hoax if you can't handle that simple truth, but take heart Brendan doesn't appear to want to be consistant on his rulings so Galiardi appears to have gotten away with his "hit."


Some things I have noticed about the last game:

1.  Blues sit on leads way to much, the turtling is getting them into a lot of trouble.

2.  Burns is by far the best Shark of the series.  He is noticable every single shift.

3.  Berglund has really elevated his play.

4.  Oshie and Stewart didn't have good games.



Edited Note:

Its really amazing to hear the other side of the telecast.  How that wasn't an obvious charge with him leaving his feet is hard to fathom for any analyst.

[naum]

Don Cherry, after trashing Crosby, now defends him. And has some words for folks (mainly reporters, who "get in for free") bothered by all the fighting…
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockeynightincanada/coachscorner/video/#id=2223645631

[Fordel]

The hit by Galliardi isn't 'clean' or 'legal' due to the fact he left his feet -- but that's the only reason its not a clean hit and a 2 minute penalty is the proper degree of punishment.

Its only more than that if its an intentional hit to the head or he doesn't let up on a player that is defenseless (which he wasn't -- MacDonald was being an idiot and nothing else) since the puck was right there.

I agree with this take on it. If he didn't leave the ice, that's just a strong hit. Keep your head up and you'll see the train coming.

[Paelos]

Well according to that inconvenient thing called a rule book you can't leave your feet while checking and that is what Galiardi did and that is really the end of the story.  According to many past rulings by the director of player safety Brendan Shanahan you can not leave your feet while checking, the checkers is responsible for the position of his body at all times, and he has justified suspensions of players with that as one of the given reasons so there is a precidence.  Sorry Hoax if you can't handle that simple truth, but take heart Brendan doesn't appear to want to be consistant on his rulings so Galiardi appears to have gotten away with his "hit."

He got a 2 minute penalty. The rest of the team got away with mauling him after the play. Stop whining.

[Ceryse]

As for Shanahan being inconsistent...

Its not his fault. Its been pretty well documented Shanahan doesn't get to suspend players as he would like. The owners and GMs went to him and basically outlined what he can, cannot suspend for and apparently imposed limits on the degree of punishment.

Basically, they brought in a guy who would suspend people appropriately and more often, unlike his predecessor, then slapped a leash on him and de-fanged him. It was a common media/fan story up here about the owners and GMs went to him after the pre-season worried he would be suspending people like that throughout the season and had a talk with him.

I forget which CBC telecast, early on, had the interview with him where he pretty much admitted it.

[01101010]

I think I'd like Cherry a bit more if he could actually complete a thought. He sounds like my grandfather, and he was diagnosed with dementia. I'd like to see the transcript of that clip just for the wtflulz.

[MournelitheCalix]

He got a 2 minute penalty. The rest of the team got away with mauling him after the play. Stop whining.

Galiardi got mauled, that is news to me.  However I would like to see what your talking about.  

I don't see any whines up there by me anyway.  Simply stating the truth and enjoying the playoffs.

I can't wait to see the next game and LA take out some Canucks.  LA is the scariest team IMHO in the central.

[Paelos]

Galiardi got mauled, that is news to me.  However I would like to see what your talking about.  

Just check the link of the hit. Watch as three Blues basically start punching him in the face immediately after the play, then tackling him.

"Mauled" is probably strong, but there should have been roughing penalties after the fact.

[Ginaz]

Don Cherry, after trashing Crosby, now defends him. And has some words for folks (mainly reporters, who "get in for free") bothered by all the fighting…
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockeynightincanada/coachscorner/video/#id=2223645631

Another point that Cherry made was that the playoffs have always had rough, brutal games and series, using some of the Boston/Montreal series of the 70's and Montreal/Quebec series of the 80's to illustrate his point.  We just haven't seen the sheer number of stuff like this in "the new NHL" for many years.

[Hoax]

Asham four games *nods head, could be more I wouldn't have minded even six but four is a pretty strong ban in playoffs* Neal one game!?!?!!?  The fuck!? Both of his "hits" were at least one game each. Neither had anything do to with hockey and were him just taking a run at someone and going for the head. Not sure I get that one.

[Ginaz]

Jesus, that hit on Hossa looked really bad.  Torres is a repeat offender and I wouldn't be surprised to see him gone the rest of this series.  The only series that hasn't gotten out of control, so far, is the Devils/Panthers.  And, yeah, now that I think about it, the Bruins set the bar pretty high last year with the goon tactics they employed and got away with.  If the other NHL teams are looking at that as the model for success now, then the NHL has no one to blame but themselves for not cracking down on the Bruins last year.  Should be an interesting playoff season and yet another reason why the NHL playoffs blow all the other sports playoffs (MLB, NFL, NBA) out of the water.

[Stewie]

I agree that he may get the rest of the series and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he gets more.

That being said the Hagelin hit on Alfredsson was worse, an elbow to the head and it only resulted in a 3 game suspension. The Neal hit was similar and that resulted in a 1 game suspension.

Not only does the NHL need more consistency in their suspensions/fine but they need to really be throwing the book at these guys, especially the head hunting.
 
Any time a player leads with his elbow should be 10 games minimum IMHO.

The other thing I find real concerning is that it seems like many of these infractions are happening specifically to the star players. 

Keith on Sedin near the end of season.
Weber on Zetterberg
Hagelin on Alfredsson
Carkner on Boyle
hell you can throw in Brown on H. Sedin.

These are just a few off the top of my head but it really does seem like open season on the star players.

[shiznitz]

NHL.com has some videos explaining why the two Penguin players got suspended. This is a really cool feature.

[murdoc]

NHL.com has some videos explaining why the two Penguin players got suspended. This is a really cool feature.

They've been doing those for every suspension since the preseason.

[MournelitheCalix]

There were reports on the Galliardi hit that he actually broke Macdonald's mask on the hit.  This of course doesn't necessarily equate to a dirty play but it is suggestive as to what part of Macdonald's body took the hit.

That being said I loved Shanahan's line on the Renaldo suspension about it being clean if he didn't leave the ice.  I haven't seen the Hossa hit yet but if the reports are true and he left the ice as well sending Hossa off the ice in a stretcher then yeah I think Torres needs a particularly long Shanaban like the whole playoffs and part of the regular season.


Just saw the Torres hit yeah he need to be gone for the entire playoffs and if possible 25 games next year that was utterly rediculous.  I like Coach Q's statement at the end it was dead on.  

[Stewie]

Regarding the Torres hit on Hossa, he had his skates on the ice when the hit was initiated, although he did leave the ice during the hit.
He was clearly propelling himself up and forward. My issue is that he is going to (most likely) get a lot of games when he clearly led with his shoulder and had Hossa just gotten up and skated away it would not be a big issue.

I don't think Raffi was head hunting. I do think he was hitting with as much force as he could produce though and the result was bad.

I guess it comes down to do you punish the result, or the intent. I think a player that leads with the elbow or otherwise demonstrates clear intent to hurt another player is a much worse than a hard shoulder check that had unfortunate consequences.

[WayAbvPar]

The Torres hit was the exact same hit that Kronwall delivers 3 times a game. If Torres gets suspended (which is likely), they need to start throwing Kronwall out of games for it.

[Ceryse]

The Torres hit was dirty. He had not quite left the ice in the hit but was clearly in the process of doing so (his right skate is -barely- on the ice at the point of contact and shortly after neither skate is touching the ice). Additionally it was a late hit (the rule of thumb for late hits is 0.5 seconds after they last had the puck is as late as you're supposed to be, and it was closer to 0.8 seconds). Throw in the fact he was clearly targeting the head, it was a charge and the fact of him being a repeat offender and his reputation for late, dirty hits (never mind his reputation for being a coke-head which while technically irrelevant colours the view a lot in the league have about him)... He's the perfect player to make an example of in this playoff run.

He's not a star player (which is why Neal didn't get more, imo, as the league has a very evident strata of treatment based on quality of player hit and doing the hitting) and has a reputation and took out a star player in spectacular fashion (stretcher).

Honestly, Torres is the type of player that the league needs to get out of the game. He's been throwing borderline hits and out right dirty hits for seven years now (I saw it a lot when he was an Oiler -- disliked him then, dislike him now). He reminds me a bit of Marchment if you negate the fact Marchment only tended to target the knees and not the head.

[MournelitheCalix]

I guess it comes down to do you punish the result, or the intent. I think a player that leads with the elbow or otherwise demonstrates clear intent to hurt another player is a much worse than a hard shoulder check that had unfortunate consequences.

I do think punishing on the basis of both intent and result is appropriate and I will justify it very simply.  Like them or hate them players like the Sedins and Hossa are ultimately what the fans pay to see.  The playoffs are a showcase of the very best teams and players for that team's system.  When a player like Raffi Torres takes out a Hossa the value of the product that is showcased greatly dimenishes.  In my opinion what should be used as the standard when applying penalties is very simply a question of was that hit illegal.  If so punish both intent and result.  If it wasn't then don't punish even if the result was injury.

[naum]

Watched the Torres blow on Hossa replay at least a dozen times…

Looks like a clean hit to me. Yeah, in slow motion, one of his skates is in the air. But watch it in real time and it looks like a textbook crushing check, with the foolish Hossa with his HEAD DOWN. STICK DOWN HEAD UP! No elbow, no stick, just a shoulder.

[01101010]

Well then...

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/18/torres-suspended-indefinitely-in-person-disciplinary-hearing-on-friday-will-miss-game-4/related/

The NHL discipline czar has suspended Torres indefinitely pending an in-person hearing on Friday, Apr. 20. The hearing, which had been planned for today, was deferred at the request of Torres and the National Hockey League Players’ Association — meaning the indefinite suspension will carry through Game 4 between the Coyotes and Blackhawks, to be played Thursday in Chicago.

[Ceryse]

Right now I'm expecting this could be a massive suspension. Someone I know who was at the game, near the Coyotes bench, said they overhead Torres telling his team mates he got away with an intentional hit to the head. Likely not true, but who knows with Torres. From his time here in Edmonton (and having met him twice, albeit briefly both times) he always struck me as that sort.

Supposedly he was saying some stuff later on in the game, on the ice to the Hawks, as well. Likely never know if its true or just fan created bullshit.

I don't see how this could be seen as a clean hit, though, given the lateness and how he jumps upwards to connect with Hossa's head. The only mitigating factor that I saw was that Hossa had his head a bit down and could have prepared for the hit, but given that it was late, a clear charge and he threw himself upwards? I don't see this one being under 5-7 games.

[Bunk]

It was pretty much the exact same hit that got Rome thrown out for the finals last year. What could have been a clean-ish (a little late), punishing hit, ended up being a stretcher job because he jumped in to it and the other player had his head down.

You can argue whether or not his skates left the ice before or after the hit, but the proximity of the skates to the ice has little to do with it - skates leave the ice in hits like this because the player crouches first and then explodes upwards in to the hit. If the other player isn't completely vertical, this can result in the shoulder making initial contact with the chin - which is bad.

Sad thing is, the other hit that got a two game suspension - James Neal on Courtourier - was essentially identical except that Courtourier's head was more upright, so the contact was spread more evenly. Essentially, Torres is going to get a suspension based on the severety of the injury.

Problem is, they've been teaching players that this is how you deliver a check properly since they were 10 ish (or whatever age they start allowing hits). Its going to be a type of hit that is really hard to eliminate from the game without killing bodychecking entirely. I think they are pretty much going to have to make a rule that if you propel yourself upwards with enough force that you skates leave the ice during a check, its a game misconduct. I don't like the idea, becuase it will lead to a lot of borderline calls, but I don't see how else you will eliminate this type of contact.