Syfy + Trion = Defiance MMO Action Shooter (PC 360 PS3)

[Tearofsoul]

Hellgate: London is better than this piece of shit.

[Riggswolfe]

-Now that I can also talk more about diku-ness.  This aint diku.  It has some diku elements, but the game doesnt feel as such.  Even the questing is largely done via remote, so a lot of the running isnt necessary unless you've just gotta do every side-mission you find.  And since you've got vehicles and teleportation it's not that bad.

This actually brings up a gripe of mine that I keep forgetting about. A lot of the smaller but nicer features in the game are totally undocumented. Fast travel, for example, is there and you can see the icon on the map if you think to mouse over it however, nothing in the game tells you it exists. I actually didn't know about it for quite awhile until I saw somebody talking about it in chat.

I also forgot to mention all the little random events you encounter as you play. Those are a nice diversion. I tend to avoid any of them having to do with Hell bugs because, really, screw Hell bugs but I'll do the others like "A vendor was ambushed by mutants, save him!"

 Also, I don't get the point of being able to choose my race/background/etc when NONE OF IT MATTERS.  

Character customization. I am one of those weirdos that LIKEs the fact that my race/'class' only matter in a cosmetic way. It means my choices are based on "that looks cool" instead of "Ok, I want to be DPS so I need to choose the Veteran." This is another example of "not documented" however. Nothing on the character creation screen tells you that this choice is purely for cosmetics and starting weapons. The first time I played I chose based on my perception of "ok so this is an engineer, this is probably a DPS, this is likely a ranged stealther..." Turns out that none of that was true.

[Furiously]

The run animation... It makes my eyes bleed.

[Stormwaltz]

My huge beef, which no one's mentioned yet, was with the UI.

In the first place, everything completely replaces your view of the world. If you want to check your inventory, you can't see. I feel this is unacceptable in a game where there is no pause and you can be attacked virtually anywhere.

The first time I tried to quit, I literally could not figure out how - I ended up using CTRL-ALT-DEL and task manager to manually shut down the exe. In most games you press ESC and "quit" is right on the resulting menu. In Defiance, ESC brings you to some full-screen menu I can't remember. In order to find the quit command, I had to hold down the space bar (not toggle - hold down) and select "settings" from a radial menu. Then you choose quit from a side scrolling list of options along the TOP of the screen. Then you confirm using an unobtrusive button that appears on the BOTTOM of the screen.

The UI for Rift was clear and concise - I don't recall needing anything explained. I assume this was the same team, so... they must have been really screwed by the cross-platform thing.

I turned in more than one quest to mailboxes. Mailboxes in the middle of a lawless, mutant-overrun wasteland. Wait, what?

And one last thing. Have you heard that hip new made-up obscenity, "schtako?" Well, you will in Defiance, because it's guaranteed to appear at least twice in every quest bestowed by the local bumpy-headed Star Trek alien. They're trying to make her sound edgy and tough, but it just comes off as juvenile and repetitive. "Frack" worked in BSG because they weren't using it every other sentence.

[Draegan]

Ha! I couldn't figure out how to quit the game either. I had to alt-f4 out.

The Menu/UI system is complete and utter shit.  I mean very very very very bad.

[luckton]

The menu system was designed for the lowest common denominator, that being console players.  All they have to do to quit is hit a button on their controller.

I think I'm going to take a pass on this game.  And if it's any reflection on how the TV series is going to go, I think I'm completely done with Syfy, short of a Farscape/Stargate revival.

[Riggswolfe]

The quit button is much much more accessible now. You go to any menu and hit the space bar. Quit Game is now a button in the upper right. Much more accessible than having to hunt for it like you used to.

Schtako doesn't bother me. It's just another sci-fi made-up cuss word like Frak or Frelling or any of the others.

[Ghambit]

I think I'm going to take a pass on this game.  And if it's any reflection on how the TV series is going to go, I think I'm completely done with Syfy, short of a Farscape/Stargate revival.

Technically, this IS the Farscape revival.  As in its creator is involved in Defiance, which means through non-competes you wont be getting a new Farscape for a long time.   

[Ginaz]

Ok, I don't feel so bad now for trying to figure out how to exit the game for 10 mins.   And yes, the UI is complete and utter shit.  Not a good start.

[luckton]

I think I'm going to take a pass on this game.  And if it's any reflection on how the TV series is going to go, I think I'm completely done with Syfy, short of a Farscape/Stargate revival.

Technically, this IS the Farscape revival.  As in its creator is involved in Defiance, which means through non-competes you wont be getting a new Farscape for a long time.   

UGH...fine, I'll give the series a shot.  But no to the game for now.

[Phred]

No one here uses DIKU to mean a stepped combat system.  It's about the endless questing, grinding, and use of the Holy Trinity.  It's designing a game like it's a DIKU MUD as opposed to something with more imagination.

Actually DIKU has been perverted to mean anything the poster doesn't like on this board.

[Phred]

Alright the NDA has been lifted so I figure I'll spill a few things. I'm going to do my best to make sure I only talk about beta stuff and not alpha stuff though I don't think there is a huge difference.

Good review but you left out the fact that vehicle controls are straight out of Mass Effect 1. Talk about retarded. Trion already have fine mouse steering code in Rift, why didn't they use it?
After 4 hours of playing today I've come to the conclusion that it is an interesting game in search of a usable UI. I don't know if the loot was pumped up for Beta but it seems almost ARPG like in it's loot drops. I got several guns that proc'd fire damage and one acid damage assault rifle in the 3 or 4 hours I played. There are boss events like Borderlands and they seem to always drop a blue weapon.

[Riggswolfe]

Alright the NDA has been lifted so I figure I'll spill a few things. I'm going to do my best to make sure I only talk about beta stuff and not alpha stuff though I don't think there is a huge difference.

Good review but you left out the fact that vehicle controls are straight out of Mass Effect 1. Talk about retarded. Trion already have fine mouse steering code in Rift, why didn't they use it?
After 4 hours of playing today I've come to the conclusion that it is an interesting game in search of a usable UI. I don't know if the loot was pumped up for Beta but it seems almost ARPG like in it's loot drops. I got several guns that proc'd fire damage and one acid damage assault rifle in the 3 or 4 hours I played. There are boss events like Borderlands and they seem to always drop a blue weapon.

Well I played the Mass Effect games on the 360 and this on PC so I didn't think of it but in hindsight I can kind of see it. The vehicles control ok once you get used to them. I've never driven anything besides the 4 wheeler though so I don't know if they change.

[Numtini]

From someone who only really plays MMOs, the controls are terrible and confusing. Too many buttons too close together.

Overall, it seems ok, but I'm still not quite sure what I'm doing or why. Is this just a mission oriented PVE shooter? A pseudo-MMO? Is what I'm doing just a training mission for a PVP game?

I suppose on some level I'm a victim of marketing because I almost certainly will give the series a try.

[Hoax]

Hellgate: London is better than this piece of shit.

I laughed then I felt bad for Trion. I'm not sure if that's 100% true but it does seem to be on HG:L's level which is something we should have moved passed by now.

I believe that we don't even get to play with console kids? They have their own servers? So basically its a game that is a ton worse as a result of bringing players I don't get to play with. Pretty sure that is all the reason I need. That said though I fucking LOVE post-apoc, dystopian, mad max, type settings I played the shit out of Neocron (little slow, awesome setting), Face of Mankind (great game loved it), AO (loved lots of things about it) I wanted to play Fallen Earth but it had a sub back then and others I'm forgetting but this shit just looks bland. So  bland. There's no sense of urgency or danger. You run around your shields get low you hide you run some more maybe you die but its just a game you respawn and do it some more wheeeeeeee!

There have been standard fps games that have done a better job with depth and breadth than what I've seen of this. Dystopia and Neotokyo come to mind.

[Riggswolfe]

From someone who only really plays MMOs, the controls are terrible and confusing. Too many buttons too close together.

Overall, it seems ok, but I'm still not quite sure what I'm doing or why. Is this just a mission oriented PVE shooter? A pseudo-MMO? Is what I'm doing just a training mission for a PVP game?

I suppose on some level I'm a victim of marketing because I almost certainly will give the series a try.

I'd say it's a mix of the first two Numtini. A mission oriented PVE shooter and a pseudo-MMO. There is PVP but it's of the 'go to a new map and fight' style and I believe you can totally avoid it. This may be one of the few MMOs that doesn't see a round of nerfs because pvpers whine and cry. Most of the EGO perks are just flat % changes to either one of your 4 skills or damage/loot/health/etc. The controls work perfectly for me. They remind me a lot of typical 3rd person controls but perhaps that is a difference in what games we play.

I will say I just remembered another knock against the game. If there is a cover mechanic I've never found it but it feels like it should have one.

Hellgate: London is better than this piece of shit.

I laughed then I felt bad for Trion. I'm not sure if that's 100% true but it does seem to be on HG:L's level which is something we should have moved passed by now.

I rolled my eyes. Out of all the hyperbole I've seen in this topic, what Tearofsoul said was the most silly and outrageous.

I believe that we don't even get to play with console kids? They have their own servers? So basically its a game that is a ton worse as a result of bringing players I don't get to play with. Pretty sure that is all the reason I need. That said though I fucking LOVE post-apoc, dystopian, mad max, type settings I played the shit out of Neocron (little slow, awesome setting), Face of Mankind (great game loved it), AO (loved lots of things about it) I wanted to play Fallen Earth but it had a sub back then and others I'm forgetting but this shit just looks bland. So  bland. There's no sense of urgency or danger. You run around your shields get low you hide you run some more maybe you die but its just a game you respawn and do it some more wheeeeeeee!

There have been standard fps games that have done a better job with depth and breadth than what I've seen of this. Dystopia and Neotokyo come to mind.

I have to agree about the console stuff. Why even bother making it for consoles, they're not really MMO territory and both the 360 and PS3 are within the last year of their life cycle. As for your other comment about no sense of danger. That knock could be made about any current FPS or MMO really. I don't think it's fair to give them shit about having a mechanic that is very common in a lot of games these days. This sounds like you just want something that isn't really a part of modern gaming. Fair enough but that doesn't make the game bad. It makes it not for you.

[UnSub]

You go for consoles so that you don't have to compete with all the MMOs that exist on PCs as well. DCUO's main revenue source is the PS3 version.

[Ghambit]

Well, to be clear Defiance takes scrip away when you die but it's unclear how much.  It's essentially a repair bill if you dont get rezzed... which as we know can get fairly devastating at higher levels.  At lower levels it means exactly jack and shit as Hoax explains.

I played with a few friends last night and we actually had a pretty good time.  As frenetic as the game can get, it's relaxing in its simplicity... definitely meant to be played on the couch.  Things did mechanically become stale after a while, but thematically the missions were enjoyable and widely varied.  We even had one that put us battling alongside the show's main characters (I guess they're arkhunters); which I hadnt seen before in the other betas.  We're all pretty advanced FPSers and fell into the usual routine pretty easily and of course the game was no match for that. 

As stated, the monsters become rote - though I've heard they change by region.  Part of the 'roteness' is due to making players anticipate each one's AI, but it doesnt take long for that to get stale.

I wish the mission-sharing system was a bit better, but since you can only really run one mission at a time (again, for consoleers) it's understandable.  Sharing is a pain if it's even possible since most missions are chained, but get everyone on the same objective and it autocompletes by proximity.  There ARE a million little sub-events that will happen on your travels though (outside of whatever mission you're tracking), that you may or may not take part in.  So in a way, they've just done away with having to hold a huge mission log and just have you voluntarily do them as you go.

Another gripe, you can't choose your own shard per se.  You can only log off and log back on into a different one.  Friends can "phase" to you however, or vice versa.  I got caught in an unbalanced shard (too many players) within a group and had to drop group, log off, log back in, reform group, and rephase the groupmember... all just to change shards.

I like the "go to friend" feature.  It's essentially a free portal ability that drops you at the nearest extraction point.  Very nice.

Crafting, modding, slotting, etc have the potential to be very nice systems but only if it's actually useful.  For instance, I've got a nade that sprays sticky goo everywhere slowing down everything... great for cleavers. (there's a gun that does similar I believe).  But again, do I actually NEED to theorycraft that deeply??  Not yet.  Granted, this is the starter zone.

In re. Arkfalls, they were noticeably lame on our shard due to lack of population.  Herein lies the problem Trion always seems to have with this dynamic; they never seem to get the difficulty right.  So the Arkfalls start out already kinda lighthearted (due to small pop server), but regardless they're immediately swarmed by the few players on the shard and are taken out within 30 seconds anyways.  This also nerfs the rewards so you'll get out there, start shooting, and get nothing due to the lameness of the arkfall.  They need to make it a bit more difficult then that come release and I'm hoping they'll be less localized and spread more like Rift's did.

More to say, but there's probably enough here to warrant the usual $60 console price.  As a PC game it rides a fine line though and it'll be up to the Clans to make the thing worthwhile, as usual.  Certain groups will most certainly live inside the Shadow War, but there's no strat meta to the pvp at all 'cept the gear grind.  The coop maps are limited to 4 players as well, so no 'raiding' unless you consider large arkfalls.   As a single-player game it's definitely not worth $60 as it's not designed for the single-player experience as something like The Secret World is.

[Phred]

There ARE a million little sub-events that will happen on your travels though (outside of whatever mission you're tracking), that you may or may not take part in. 

Ya this is the coolest part of the game and the one that made me wonder what game the person who dismissed this as a wow-like quest hub system was playing.

[Ghambit]

Yah, last night we rolled up on some mutants and skitterlings trying to feast on mutated wildabeasts.  Wasnt even a mission until we got close (never appeared on the map either).  Drops were pretty good though and not an easy fight.  The best ones are the random troop carriers that you have to defend that eventually turn into rare merchants.  That's the only time I'd recommend buying gear, otherwise save your monies.

Overall I must say the zone/game does feel organic and Live, especially being seamless.  They did a nice job not just having random mutants running around to grind on.  Most every target is linked to some kind of objective.  It really needs a main base for people to hang though.  I havent been past the beta zones so not sure if they add this later; I expect Tortage since they're keeping pretty mum on the late-game.   

[Stormwaltz]

If there is a cover mechanic I've never found it but it feels like it should have one.

If you mean a Mass Effect-like "you automatically get velcroed to any 90-degree flat surface you nudge against," I haven't seen one either. Cover does work though; crouch behind an open car door, it will block most incoming fire, but you can fiire through and get shot through the window.

I don't like the velcro-cover mechanics, so I'm fine with that. I prefer the sort of old school shooter cover they have going.

[Phred]

I don't like the velcro-cover mechanics, so I'm fine with that. I prefer the sort of old school shooter cover they have going.

If only your character had the sense to pick his gun up and shoot over a wall rather than firing it into the wall it would be a bit better, imo. My character refuses to do anything with her assault rifle other than shoot from the hip, even aimed shots never leave the from the hip position, despite the rifle clearly having a scope.

[Stormwaltz]

My character refuses to do anything with her assault rifle other than shoot from the hip, even aimed shots never leave the from the hip position, despite the rifle clearly having a scope.

Even from crouch? Bizarre.

I use deadbolt sniper rifle as my main weapon, so I'm used to having bullets come from head/shoulder level.

[Tearofsoul]

Hellgate: London is better than this piece of shit.

I laughed then I felt bad for Trion. I'm not sure if that's 100% true but it does seem to be on HG:L's level which is something we should have moved passed by now.

I rolled my eyes. Out of all the hyperbole I've seen in this topic, what Tearofsoul said was the most silly and outrageous..

I rolled my eyes too, I am not sure if you are new to MMO, or you have been playing RuneScape for the past 10 years.

But if you really like this game, make sure you "pre-pay" their DLC as well. Good deal bro, good deal.

[Riggswolfe]

Hellgate: London is better than this piece of shit.

I laughed then I felt bad for Trion. I'm not sure if that's 100% true but it does seem to be on HG:L's level which is something we should have moved passed by now.

I rolled my eyes. Out of all the hyperbole I've seen in this topic, what Tearofsoul said was the most silly and outrageous..

I rolled my eyes too, I am not sure if you are new to MMO, or you have been playing RuneScape for the past 10 years.

But if you really like this game, make sure you "pre-pay" their DLC as well. Good deal bro, good deal.

The game's fun. It has flaws and I don't know what legs it will have but if I spend $60 and get over 20 hours of play out of it that puts it ahead of most modern games for me. Ironically. it's longevity probably depends on the DLC that you're snarking about and how well they tie it into the show. But to say it's a piece of shit worse than Hellgate: London is pure and simple hyperbole. It's got issues, some of them quite serious (their chat is shitty for example) but it's better than Hellgate was.

As for the "How long have you played MMOs" stuff I have no interest in trying to prove my MMO street cred or whatever you're shooting for but if you must know my first MMO was UO back in...hmmm...'98 or '99 I think. I'm not sure how that matters as I don't think Defiance is truly an MMO as we think of them. It's more of a persistent shooter with some MMO systems tacked on.

[Falconeer]

Different genres. Hellgate London doesn't play like a shooter at all, and it doesn't have an open world.

Terrible comparison. Global Agenda would be a slightly better (but still bad) one.

[Riggswolfe]

Different genres. Hellgate London doesn't play like a shooter at all, and it doesn't have an open world.

Terrible comparison. Global Agenda would be a slightly better (but still bad) one.

I think the comparison was basically "what's a shitty online game? Oh, Hellgate:London. Yeah, Defiance is shittier than that."

[Stormwaltz]

Just wanted to mention now that I'm getting into serious "six guys running at you at the same time, with cleavers, miniguns, and grenades," I've died at least a half dozen times purely due to the default keymap placing the "quickmenu" command between the run and dodge keys.

EDIT: Aaaaand looks like beta is over for me. I'm stuck on a mission I can't complete that includes the aforementioned sort of swarm+bosses... which you have to avoid while completing a jumping puzzle. Maybe someone else has reflexes good enough to deal with this... I don't. And I can't take another quest while I have it, and I can't find any way to abandon the quest.

Yeah. Fun!

[Ginaz]

Just wanted to mention now that I'm getting into serious "six guys running at you at the same time, with cleavers, miniguns, and grenades," I've died at least a half dozen times purely due to the default keymap placing the "quickmenu" command between the run and dodge keys.

EDIT: Aaaaand looks like beta is over for me. I'm stuck on a mission I can't complete that includes the aforementioned sort of swarm+bosses... which you have to avoid while completing a jumping puzzle. Maybe someone else has reflexes good enough to deal with this... I don't. And I can't take another quest while I have it, and I can't find any way to abandon the quest.

Yeah. Fun!

Go to your map.  You can abandon quests there, I believe.  Its stupid, I know, but it goes back to the UI being made more for consoles.  Consolitis at its finest.

[Surlyboi]

Consolitis is indeed strong with this one.

That said, it IS kinda fun in a mindless, run-and-gun sort of way. I liked TR a lot and the mechanics here are similar enough, with the added bonus of not being locked into any one archetype. I'll lay out the 60 bones for it probably. Still need to see how it ties into the show though.

[Stormwaltz]

Never did figure out how to abandon quests, but I managed to follow some other people to the problem area and finally clear it.

I ended up playing Defiance beta for 11-12 hours this weekend, versus five hours of Neverwinter beta. It's an odd bird. Neither MMG nor Fallout 3, it's fun enough in a shooter-lite, explorer-lite way. The story I couldn't care less about - more cheapjack Sci-Fi Channel schlock, and I don't give two shakes of a rat's hindquarters about their "transmedia" gimmickry. I think if I bought the box I'd end up playing for sixty hours. A good value ratio.

I'm pretty sure the guy who played Von Bock was a salarian somewhere in Mass Effect.

EDIT: To be more clear, yes I intend to buy Defiance. I won't be taking it too seriously, but it definitely fills a gap in my gaming needs.

EDIT 2: Or at least I *would* buy Defiance, if Trion's page didn't give me "We are unable to complete your purchase. Please try again later." over and over...

[Surlyboi]

Steam that bitch.

And if one more hellbug gave me 1970s pants...

[Stormwaltz]

Steam that bitch.

Buying it through Trion's site guarantees you get the preorder bonuses that have yet to unlock on Steam. Also, I expect a greater percentage of the profits go directly to Trion.

Still not working this morning, though. ¬_¬

[Ghambit]

Steam that bitch.

Buying it through Trion's site guarantees you get the preorder bonuses that have yet to unlock on Steam. Also, I expect a greater percentage of the profits go directly to Trion.

Still not working this morning, though. ¬_¬

Beta is over.

Consolitis is indeed strong with this one.

 Still need to see how it ties into the show though.

The main chars. of the show are arkfall hunters as well evidently.  You meet them in the intro. and in a side mission on Mt. Tam (wherein they teach you about arkfalls).  They'll be moving to St. Louis though, which somewhat explains why the game starts 2 weeks before the show.  Word is, the game will react to the show for most of the 1st season - the main element of which will be big arkfalls seen in the show.  The show wont react to the game until near the end of the season or next season since most of it has already been filmed (they plan to inject well known PC's into the show; through contests).  From the get-go both media will share common adversaries (mutants, hellbugs, etc.)

Ive not got my hopes up for how they're going to take advantage of all of this.  'Twer me I'd drop clues in the show for taking down impossible bosses, explorative easter eggs, and codes that give special access to certain maps/regions.  They've been completely mum about all of this though aside from what I said above.

[Stormwaltz]

Beta is over.

I was referring to Trion's purchase page, not the game itself.