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Author Topic: DC to "Reboot Everything"  (Read 150059 times)
Margalis
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Reply #140 on: July 17, 2011, 07:41:37 PM

The more I hear about this thing the less I understand it. But really I think the fundamental problem is one that many businesses face - if you have culture and personnel problems the only way to fix those is to change those things. Changing the process or content doesn't really matter.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
NowhereMan
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Reply #141 on: July 18, 2011, 02:31:25 AM

Yeah, it sounds more and more like they're roughly aware of the problems that they've generated for themselves in terms of silly stories and continuity confusion. This attempt to fix it is being run by the same people that  have dragged the industry into these problems though and rather than actually fix them they've shut down everything going on and launched with the stories they want to tell. So the only things surviving this are the very sorts of stories that this is meant to fix. I have no doubt some good writers will do some good runs in spite of this but they've really just made things a bit worse short term and more confusing for anyone looking to get into reading this stuff.

Fuck, frankly I think they need to get out of the monthly ongoings formula. Requiring there be a Superman storyline always on the go is inevitably going to lead to continuity block up and reams of shitty soap opera stuff. Keep the characters and teams licensed and have them available to teams able to submit a good enough pitch for stories they want to write. Allow a bit more freedom in terms of separation and cut back a bit on the shared world stuff. If they really want to do a summer event thing run that separately from Superman or Batman and have side titles for it with a few characters you can justify following in terms of the story. Of course that would require a far more radical restructuring of the industry than even switching to electronic publishing so it's pretty much guaranteed not to happen.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
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Reply #142 on: July 19, 2011, 01:24:45 AM

When it comes down to it, I don't think continuity was ever really the problem with comics.  I'm reasonably sure that none of us started reading Batman with Detective Comics #27, or had been reading X-men since the first issue.  In fact I think a lot of the fun was that you'd be reading a comic, and they'd drop in a comment about something that happened previously and "see X-Men #231" or whatever, and it would make you want to track that issue down.  I think the real issues facing comics are price and distribution (we'll see if DC's plan to release digital versions on the same day as the physical copies has any effect on the latter), lack of stand-alone stories, and competition for other forms of entertainment, like video games. 

Time was, you used to be able to pick up issues as an impulse buy in supermarkets, gas stations, 7-11's, bookstores, and any number of other places.  Price Club (now Costco), used to carry 20 and 50 packs of random comics for a reasonable price also.  From there, if they managed to get kids hooked on a couple books, they could get people to subscribe or keep an eye out for the latest issues whenever they were at the store.   Instead of finding ways to keep newsstand distribution alive in the face of declining sales, as a way to maintain a gateway for new readers, the industry shifted almost entirely to the direct market.  Now, unless you're picking up trades at the bookstore or online, you actually have to make the conscious decision to go to a comic book store, assuming you have one nearby, and drop $15-20 on a handful of issues.  Publishers seem to have given up on subscriptions entirely, not that they'd work to well when most new series don't make it past issue 6, comics are constantly getting canceled and rebooted, and every other issue is part of a crossover.

If they can't find a way to get at least some comics out there, readily available at places outside comic ships, and at a price somewhere under $2 an issue, it's not going to matter what's inside the comic, because they're still going to be selling to the same base they currently have.
Margalis
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Reply #143 on: July 19, 2011, 04:16:10 AM

I was about to post that the idea of "continuity" being a problem is a pretty recent thing, far more recent than comics continuity itself. Some comics do get up their own asses with continuity but that's on the writers and editors. I don't think it's an inherent problem.

I recently signed up for a free month of Marvel Digital comics. I didn't know what to read so I remembered an old issue of Wizard Magazine I had thumbed through talking up the Avengers vs. Ultron. Ultron is cool so I went to read those and they weren't there. Everything before them was there and after I think, just those issues were not there.

Doing a little more poking around there will be runs of some continuous issues, then holes. I kind of suspect those holes are where trade paperbacks, collections, etc cover that territory. So the digital stuff is like "the best of comics that aren't good enough to ever appear in collected form." Plus it's just annoying to see holes, really kills any interest in reading anything.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Mazakiel
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Reply #144 on: July 20, 2011, 09:00:14 PM

The more I read about what they'll be doing with this reboot/not reboot, the more it sounds like a giant fucking mess.  Apparently Superman is getting One More Day'd, among other things.  Plus the few DC titles I've bothered to read after the last batch of stupid events seem to be going away.  Between that and Batman Inc. apparently still being around, I guess I won't be getting any DC titles at all. 
Khaldun
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Reply #145 on: July 21, 2011, 05:12:57 AM

Yep. Cutting through the Gordian Knot would have been: "You know what, it doesn't really matter what the baseline of a character is: we're just gonna do ALL our books like All-Star Superman. Next creative team decides what version of the character they like, does some establishing work, and away they go. Guys after them can do what they want too. Fewer books, better quality writers and visual storytelling, creator-driven concepts on the more obscure books".

Instead it's:

"Ok, Superman isn't married to Lois anymore, and when he was a kid he was in the Legion but he wasn't Superboy and he didn't ever wear the red underpants outfit and Metallo wasn't related to a scientist finding the capsule and the Kents are dead now and and and and" as if any of that shit is itself the platform that produces good stories. None of it fucking matters per se: there is no absolute superiority of a Superman who came from a sterile Krypton whose parents are still alive in his adulthood who is not friends with Batman who is married to Lois who gains his powers from the sun who is known throughout the galaxy who made Lex Luthor bald over a Superman who was Superboy when he was a kid who isn't married to Lois who isn't vulnerable to red sun radiation who is best buds with Batman and so on.

But that's what they're spending most of their masturbatory planning doing, fiddling with those dials and settings. Which just perpetuates their problems rather than begins to solve them.
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Reply #146 on: July 21, 2011, 11:08:30 PM

Some other complaints I've heard is that Superman is only about 5 years into his time at Metropolis, while Batman is onto his 4th Robin.

... which he could be, if he uses Robin as a human shield regularly. Probably not the vision of Batman that DC wants either.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Margalis
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Reply #147 on: July 21, 2011, 11:32:18 PM

It sounds like less of a reboot and more "ok everybody pick whatever version of the character you want to write then let's jam them all together!"

New writing teams coming in and doing whatever the hell they want is IMO one of the major reasons comics have declined. So this seems like a step in the complete wrong direction.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Khaldun
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Reply #148 on: July 22, 2011, 05:21:23 AM

I think the best books of the last 20 years have been by writing teams doing smart, independent work on a title. The worst titles are the continuity porn ones that are heavily edited and controlled by the companies, or the continuity porn writers like Dan Jurgens or Geoff Johns who expect everyone to get a thrill out of stories that revisit some obscure Roy Thomas 70s-era story or some such.

Bad stories are bad, of course, whether they're done by guys with little interest in continuity or tons of interest in it. And certain ideas about characters are horrible whatever the expectation about continuity might be: say, JMS deciding that Norman Osborn fucked Gwen Stacy before Peter Parker did.
Margalis
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Reply #149 on: July 22, 2011, 05:25:46 AM

I was talking more about writers coming in and doing stuff like "well I don't like these two characters so Ima kill them off in the first issue, and replace them with these two dead guys I like. Also I'll this British lady into an asian chick, and take the bones out of this character who is entirely based on being bony!"

I think a good writer should respect what came before them and realize that they are the temporary steward of something bigger than them. That doesn't mean they have dwell in the past but it does mean they shouldn't just listen to their every whim - especially when creative teams change so often.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sir T
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Reply #150 on: July 22, 2011, 07:33:39 AM

I'm reminded of an interesting comment by Leonard Nemoy in his autobiography that, in effect, the actor himself is the steward of the continuity of his character. Every episode has a new director and maybe writers, neither of which may have any idea of the way the character has been portrayed in the show before. So it up to the actor to keep the character consistent and impart this knowledge to the director, or the character risks disintegration.

In comics that's impossible as there is no actor to fight for the character. Its not really continuity that is the whole problem in comics. its that the character himself can change radically from writer to writer and artist to artist. If the character is totally schizophrenic, how can the reader form a long term bond with the character? How can you get to know and love the morals and flaws of the character if they are rebooted every 6 issues?

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Mazakiel
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Reply #151 on: July 22, 2011, 07:56:00 AM

Some other complaints I've heard is that Superman is only about 5 years into his time at Metropolis, while Batman is onto his 4th Robin.

... which he could be, if he uses Robin as a human shield regularly. Probably not the vision of Batman that DC wants either.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I've also read that Superman won't understand all of his powers yet, and that he will no longer be able to fly.  So basically the Young Justice version of Superboy.  All the Robins are not only still around, but Barbara Gordon will have been paralyzed in the past, and still be dealing with the recovery to some degree. 

Oh, and apparently Aquaman is no longer King of Atlantis, and they're going to play up the fact that nobody likes him in his comic. 

It sounds like less of a reboot and more "ok everybody pick whatever version of the character you want to write then let's jam them all together!"

New writing teams coming in and doing whatever the hell they want is IMO one of the major reasons comics have declined. So this seems like a step in the complete wrong direction.

Agreed.  For having a 'fresh start' that all the company is supposedly behind, it seems to be all over the place, and most of it does not sound like anything to keep old fans around or attract new ones.  While there's the group of fans who will buy anything with DC slapped on it, I don't think they're going to have the success they're hoping for or need.  Time will tell though. 
Khaldun
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Reply #152 on: July 22, 2011, 09:52:15 AM

It takes figuring out, "What are the essentials of this character"?

Batman, for example:

a. The basics of the origin are an absolute requirement. You can add things: Frank Miller's image of the pearl necklace, the nature of the performance they were at that night (Zorro, Die Fleidermaus), the specifics of what the young Bruce Wayne did to train as Batman. But you can't violate the core narrative of the origin. The Waynes have to be good people (and thus innocent victims), Bruce has to take his vow, etc.
b. The character has to be non-superpowered. That's key--he has to be the product of obsessive training but basically a human being. He can use technology, but probably has to stop short of Iron Man territory.
c. The costume and concept has to have a kind of slightly nutty theater to it, and Bruce has to be a vigilante who operates outside the system because he doesn't believe the system can be trusted to deliver either protection or justice to the innocent--the "superstitious, cowardly lot" idea is pretty crucial to explaining why Bruce doesn't just become a cop or a lawyer or a politician.
d. Batman doesn't willfully kill. He's not the Punisher or the Shadow. He probably shouldn't use guns either, though everyone loves to point out that he did at the very beginning.
e. He probably has to be at least a bit unhappy, a bit melancholic, a bit obsessive, a bit dark. Though I'm fine with the Brave and Bold Batman too.

Within those rough boundaries, I'm perfectly fine with some really different versions existing, and they don't have to be reconciled or made to relate to one another. In any given version, there might be some really dumb storytelling, and the best thing to do when that happens is to just ignore it, it never happened, rather than try to explain it in-continuity later on. Say, Mike Barr's Batman: Year 2 story that had Batman running around with a gun trying to kill Joe Chill while working with (and then against) a Punisher-style vigilante called the Reaper. The problem is not that this violated earlier canon, it's just that it was a dumb story, badly told. (Compare it to the brilliant early story that introduced Joe Chill and had him gunned down by fellow criminals who were furious that he was the one who'd 'created' Batman.)

So what's bad is when a new team comes in and does something dumb. Dumb is dumb. Making Alfred into a female ninja would be dumb: what's the point of that? The character works. Making Commissioner Gordon into an immortal telepath would be dumb. Revealing that Batman was actually the son of Ra's al-Ghul, dumb. And so on. It's got nothing to do with continuity per se: it's just about quality.

So the most fuck this, not going to read any more, things in comics are pretty continuity-independent, but reboots and sideboots are certainly MORE prone to generating fuck-ugly story elements that actually violate some pretty core essentials about a character. I have no problem with a Spider-Man who NEVER dated Gwen Stacy, that's ok. I freaking hate a Spider-Man who was dating a Gwen Stacy who had fucked Norman Osborn and secretly had twins by him. That's just ugly and stupid and does nothing at all. That belongs in some kind of Warren Ellis "I hate the entire idea of superheroes" quasi-parody, not in an ostensibly 'normal' superhero book.

The problem is that as comics linger on and on and on under the control of basically poor upper management, the publishers become more and more and more desperate to keep their dwindling audiences happy. Which means lots of stupid deaths, lots of pointless reboots, lots of shitty shock-value things like Sue Dibny getting raped by Dr. Light or Arsenal's daughter getting blown up and him freaking out and going back on heroin or whatever. It's a very similar problem to soap operas, really--at some point you run out of stunts and tricks and gimmicks, and it seems to be too difficult to just tell good stories as an alternative.
Margalis
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Reply #153 on: July 22, 2011, 07:05:10 PM

In comics that's impossible as there is no actor to fight for the character.

That is supposed to be the job of the editorial staff.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #154 on: July 22, 2011, 07:44:53 PM

And the editorial staff is faced with demands to increase shareholder value. Welcome to the machine.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Margalis
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Reply #155 on: July 22, 2011, 07:49:03 PM

And the editorial staff is faced with demands to increase shareholder value.

But they aren't doing that. Marvel went bankrupt!

I used to read a Marvel Comics newsgroup than an editor posted in. Long story short the editorial staff (and other departments) was filled with incompetence and maliciousness. Like people would routinely steal back issues from the Marvel library. It sounded like a real mess.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #156 on: July 22, 2011, 07:56:55 PM

So it sounds like a bunch of comic uber dorks are having a slapfight, then. It doesn't bode well, but i am hopeful that we'll see some more solid work out of Marvel, at very least. I have never been a huge DC reader, but the Flashpoint main story books aren't awful.

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Reply #157 on: July 22, 2011, 09:23:41 PM

Inmates running the Asylum and all that?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #158 on: July 23, 2011, 10:50:27 AM

Inmates running the Asylum and all that?

That's my thought.  I imagine the comics industry is what the games industry would look like after a few more generations if it didn't require more than the ability to make up stories.

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Reply #159 on: July 23, 2011, 08:48:21 PM

The whole soft reboot thing they're doing feels much more like a jumping off point rather jumping on point. My local shop handed out a four page checklist of the new titles and my eyes just glaze over. The only interesting thing I've noticed so far is that they made Starfire's outfit smaller, though they more than balanced that out by teaming her up with Jason "should've stayed dead' Todd and Roy "cat nunchaku" Harper.

Scans daily posted http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3147946.html?#cutid1 a hilariously sad two pages of nuSuperman. Clark goes to visit Lois but she's shacked up with some guy and then Clark mopes away while eavesdropping on them with his super hearing.
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Reply #160 on: July 23, 2011, 09:17:31 PM

It's a jumping on point to start off DC's digital approach. Direct comics sales are drying up, going back to newsagents finds them stuck with even less shelf space and the real money in comics is in merchandising / movies, not four-colour pages.

As for the state of comics storytelling, it's what you get when characters have to come out, month after month, in soap operas that are written by people raised on those soap operas. The last big comics push came when "new" blood (Image, Valiant, etc) tried to start things from scratch, but that was a long time ago and the industry has just fed on itself ever since.

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Reply #161 on: July 23, 2011, 10:09:18 PM

The whole soft reboot thing they're doing feels much more like a jumping off point rather jumping on point. My local shop handed out a four page checklist of the new titles and my eyes just glaze over. The only interesting thing I've noticed so far is that they made Starfire's outfit smaller, though they more than balanced that out by teaming her up with Jason "should've stayed dead' Todd and Roy "cat nunchaku" Harper.

Scans daily posted http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3147946.html?#cutid1 a hilariously sad two pages of nuSuperman. Clark goes to visit Lois but she's shacked up with some guy and then Clark mopes away while eavesdropping on them with his super hearing.


A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #162 on: July 23, 2011, 10:25:27 PM

SlutFire?

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Sir T
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Reply #163 on: July 24, 2011, 01:07:12 AM

Theres "Making he costume smaller" and making armour out of a dishcloth.

But hey at least the metal parts are set up to lift and separate.

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Khaldun
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Reply #164 on: July 24, 2011, 05:52:13 AM

What I find hilarious is that she's got shoulderpads on. Sure, that makes sense.
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Reply #165 on: July 24, 2011, 09:39:30 AM

I can buy the costume somewhat, Starfire's people (God this is sounding way overly nerdy already) don't really do clothing so the character has always found them really odd and generally preferred to do without when possible. Pairing the bright and generally happy Starfire with the two morbid killers of the DC universe is frankly the more swamp poop aspect of that.

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Reply #166 on: July 24, 2011, 10:46:51 AM

Scans daily posted http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3147946.html?#cutid1 a hilariously sad two pages of nuSuperman. Clark goes to visit Lois but she's shacked up with some guy and then Clark mopes away while eavesdropping on them with his super hearing.

Jesus Fucking Christ. I expect Clark Kent to become some kind of cutter, slicing his arm up and down with shards of his baby rocket ship.

EDIT: Also, that Starfire and the ThroatSlicing Brigade cover? Fuck me, that's goddamn awful. WHY IS JASON FUCKING TODD STILL ALIVE? And why is Starfire burning the flesh off a guy's face? GRIMDARK TITANS!!!!!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:49:26 AM by HaemishM »

Margalis
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Reply #167 on: July 24, 2011, 02:43:09 PM

Wasn't Jason Todd the guy who bit it in Death in the Family?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
MuffinMan
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Reply #168 on: July 24, 2011, 02:48:51 PM

Wasn't Jason Todd the guy who bit it in Death in the Family?
"The only people who stay dead in comics, are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."

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Reply #169 on: July 25, 2011, 01:58:39 AM

Wasn't Jason Todd the guy who bit it in Death in the Family?
"The only people who stay dead in comics, are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."

And Batman and Superman's parents.

Margalis
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Reply #170 on: July 25, 2011, 03:52:29 AM

And Batman and Superman's parents.

I don't follow DC too closely so I have no idea whether or not this is a joke, but I suspect that it as and both sets of parents are alive or at least were again at some point.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #171 on: July 25, 2011, 04:53:42 AM

Supermans biological parents were dead forever. Pa kent however depending on the writer has either died some point in supermans early career or still very much alive. As far as i know its usually by natural causes.
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Reply #172 on: July 25, 2011, 05:14:45 AM

And Batman and Superman's parents.

I don't follow DC too closely so I have no idea whether or not this is a joke, but I suspect that it as and both sets of parents are alive or at least were again at some point.

So far as I know it's not a joke.  The Waynes have never done the zombie thing and Supes' biologicals never escaped the explosion of Krypton.

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Reply #173 on: July 25, 2011, 05:41:39 AM

Silver Age Superman used time travel to visit Krypton so often that Jor-El and Lara were in effect alive, though.

About the only inviolables left are Uncle Ben and the Waynes, because in both cases frequent contact with either even via time travel or some such undercuts the fundamental reason why the character exists. Though in the current DC crossover event, which takes place in an alternate reality (some of which will survive into the 'new' DC Universe) Thomas Wayne is the Batman, Bruce Wayne was killed by the gunman, and Martha Wayne is the Joker.
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Reply #174 on: July 25, 2011, 05:47:30 AM

Bugger
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