NFL 2011

[ghost]

I thought they overplayed the "hold out" theory.  There's plenty of shitty quarterbacks that didn't hold out.  I suspect that most of the hold outs on the list would still have been shit-tastic, even with the extra time.

[Paelos]

Here's a better plan. Don't draft an SEC QB in the first round. I'm not sold on any of them except the Mannings.

[Ingmar]

This was pretty much the only high point until Manning came.

Umm...

[Fordel]

No I mean they showed the Colts stats since Manning joined or whatever. Then compared it to when Brady got hurt and some other QB who I've forgotten.

NE was like 10-6 without Brady, but the Colts were 0 wins.

[Sjofn]

To continue the discussion of shitty quarterbacks, here's a list of the 50 worst quarterbacks in NFL history.  

I won't spoil the list for you, but Oakland plays a prominent role.  

NO KERRY COLLINS NO PEACE

Seeing Dave Brown made me laugh. I can laugh about him now.

[Paelos]

The real question right now is who are the worst starting QBs in the league?

I think it's something like:

Tim Tebow
Curtis Painter
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez
Rex Grossman
Matt Moore

[Azuredream]

[Whoever is starting for Seattle this week]

edit; yeah, Sanchez doesn't belong on that list.

[Fordel]

Why is Sanchez in that list? He doesn't seem anywhere near the same level of awful as the rest.

[Ingmar]

He has perhaps the biggest difference between perceived ability and actual ability in the league.

[Trippy]

Blaine Gabbert.

[HaemishM]

Sanchez and Flacco are about the same level. They can be good and they can be wretched. Averaged out over a season, they are decent but not spectacular QB's.

My list -

ELITE
Peyton "The Neck" Manning
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Philip Rivers
Drew Brees

Really Good but not Great
Matt Schaub
Ben Rapistburger
Matt Hasselback

Good With the Occasional HOLY FUCK WHAT WERE YOU THINKING
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Michael Vick
Jay Cutler

Good But Too Young to Be Considered Great Yet
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Christian Ponder
Josh Freeman
Sam Bradford
Andy Dalton
Colt McCoy

Are Never Going to be Better Than They Are Right Now (and could be worse on any given Sunday)
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Kyle Orton
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Kevin Kolb

HOW THE FUCK DID THEY GET A STARTING JOB?
Chad Henne
Rex Grossman
John Beck
Tavaris Jackson
Charlie Whitehurst
AJ Feeley
Matt Moore
Curtis Painter
Kerry Collins
Vince Young
Kyle Boller
Tim Tebow

Jury is still out
Blaine Gabbert

[Paelos]

Why is Sanchez in that list? He doesn't seem anywhere near the same level of awful as the rest.

I disagree.

[naum]

Sanchez and Flacco are about the same level. They can be good and they can be wretched. Averaged out over a season, they are decent but not spectacular QB's.

My list -

ELITE
Peyton "The Neck" Manning
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Philip Rivers
Drew Brees

Really Good but not Great
Matt Schaub
Ben Rapistburger
Matt Hasselback

…

Rivers rated ahead of Roethlisberger? WTF has Rivers ever won? Ben been to 3 SB, with 2 rings, and except maybe for the 1st one (and which he posted phenomenal regular season W-L record for 1st two NFL seasons) where it could be argued "team carried him", mostly on his arm and playmaking. And like I put forth numbers from the stat heads, Ben > Manning over past 3 seasons. And Manning might be totally done as "elite" QB status goes. I'd put Ben on par with Brees.

But Ben nor Brees not in class of Brady and Rodgers.

Schaub and Hasselback? Hasselback at one time could be considered in the good-very good range -- now he's teetering between below average and good. Right now, this season, I'd rather have Cam Newton or Josh Freeman than Matty H or Schaub (who had accomplished almost zero) as starting QB.

[Ingmar]

Who gives a shit what he's won? He can't play the 21 other positions on the field. He's a more skilled/talented QB than Big Ben. The Chargers haven't lost because Rivers has failed. Look at last year's team. They led the league in offense AND defense. Special teams lost them a totally legit shot at the Super Bowl. Rivers can't control that kind of thing, holding it against him is ridiculous.

[HaemishM]

I think Ben's rings can be attributed to his team as much as himself. I think you put Ben on a team like the Eagles or even the Colts team that Manning won with and he does not win Super Bowls. An elite QB carries a team. Ben doesn't always carry that team nearly as much as their defense does. His first Super Bowl was fucking terrible. He won on running game and defense. His second Super Bowl was better but again, defense won that game for them. Peyton's Super Bowl win was against a really good Bears defense. Brees's gaudy numbers put him ahead of the Rapist because he's constantly throwing to 7, 8 guys a game, and only one of those is what I would consider a top line wideout (Colston).

EDIT: And to answer the Rivers thing, Rivers has carried that team for seasons. Vincent Jackson is no Hines Ward (though maybe Antonio Gates is). Last year he was throwing to guys off the street, with a defense and special teams that gave up big plays often.

[Ingmar]

It's just pants-on-head retarded to suggest that a QB on a bad or mediocre team has to play far better than one on a good team to be considered at the same skill level. The end.

[HaemishM]

Manning on a mediocre team makes them a good team - this season is evidence of that. He just probably wouldn't be considered elite on a shitty team like Denver because his numbers wouldn't be as good. Pittsburgh has never been a shitty team while Rothliesberger is there. They've had a defense, good wideouts, and most of the time, a good running game. Hell, he missed 4 games last season and the Steelers barely noticed - didn't they go 3-1 in that stretch? While the Colts have gone 0-7 without Manning and an UGLY 0-7 at that. Elite QB's make good teams into great teams.

[Tannhauser]

Glad to see Colston getting some love here.  He's been a quiet playmaker his whole career.

[Paelos]

Manning on a mediocre team makes them a good team - this season is evidence of that. He just probably wouldn't be considered elite on a shitty team like Denver because his numbers wouldn't be as good. Pittsburgh has never been a shitty team while Rothliesberger is there. They've had a defense, good wideouts, and most of the time, a good running game. Hell, he missed 4 games last season and the Steelers barely noticed - didn't they go 3-1 in that stretch? While the Colts have gone 0-7 without Manning and an UGLY 0-7 at that. Elite QB's make good teams into great teams.

And by contrast a shitty QB on a good team costs them dearly. It's the reason why Rex Ryan is ringless.

[Rasix]

I'd disagree with that given the available alternatives for them.

[Paelos]

I'd disagree with that given the available alternatives for them.

Would you agree that if Phillip Rivers played on the Jets, they would win a Super Bowl with that defense?

[Rasix]

This year? No.  Last year, perhaps.

I'm just wondering how they could possibly do better at this point.  Who could they have gotten that would be a definite upgrade?  Cutler? Kolb? Cassel?

[Ingmar]

Orton. 

[Johny Cee]

To continue the discussion of shitty quarterbacks, here's a list of the 50 worst quarterbacks in NFL history.  

I won't spoil the list for you, but Oakland plays a prominent role.  

NO KERRY COLLINS NO PEACE

Seeing Dave Brown made me laugh. I can laugh about him now.

Fuck.

I had managed to forget about Dave Brown until this post.  Thanks Sjofn!

[Sjofn]

REALLY you should be thanking Ghost! 

[Outlawedprod]

Umm...

Maybe I should have clarified. I have never considered the Indianapolis Colts the same team.  When they left Baltimore it really became a new team.  The Indy Colts sucked overall for many years. Though they did make the playoffs with Trudeau one year I know (it kind of helps when you have Eric Dickerson).

[HaemishM]

This year? No.  Last year, perhaps.

I'm just wondering how they could possibly do better at this point.  Who could they have gotten that would be a definite upgrade?  Cutler? Kolb? Cassel?

A lot of it would depend on how good the running game is. And their running game has been uniformly terrible this year. Orton is more accurate. Cutler is about the same as Sanchez with accuracy, and with the O line problems they've had this year, Cutler wouldn't have been an upgrade. Cassel might have been sort of a side grade.

David Garrard might have been an upgrade. Not flashy, but won't throw the ball away as much as Sanchez.

[naum]

I think Ben's rings can be attributed to his team as much as himself. I think you put Ben on a team like the Eagles or even the Colts team that Manning won with and he does not win Super Bowls. An elite QB carries a team. Ben doesn't always carry that team nearly as much as their defense does. His first Super Bowl was fucking terrible. He won on running game and defense. His second Super Bowl was better but again, defense won that game for them. Peyton's Super Bowl win was against a really good Bears defense. Brees's gaudy numbers put him ahead of the Rapist because he's constantly throwing to 7, 8 guys a game, and only one of those is what I would consider a top line wideout (Colston).

No. Anyone that has suffered through likes of Malone, Stoudt, Woodley, Brister, O'Donnell  and Stewart (except for a couple of good seasons -- and here is a QB that Cowher coaching ruined, and did little to nurture, and yanked him immediately upon any struggling -- I mean, when you lead your team to 2 championship games and the season after you get replaced with Tommy Maddox…).

Even this year, without Ben, the Steelers are easily 2-5 instead of 5-2. When your best offensive lineman was waived in off-season, and sitting on the couch October 1 and the rest of the 1st unit almost all injured and in shambles (and even 2 of those guys couldn't start for most NFL squads). Yeah, he's had some decent receivers, but the RB situation has been iffy -- Bettis good when healthy but always broke down by end of year, Parker had a good season or two, and now Mendenhall is decent at best. And the defense while being good, is not the force it was back in the 90s -- especially against elite QB that seem to carve them up with ease.

Again, he not in Rodgers or Brady class, but he on the next tier with Brees.

Rivers is a crybaby douche and not a team leader, at least judged by what I've seen of him in big games.

[Cyrrex]

Rivers is "fiery and emotional"...which I supposed could be perceived as crybaby douche territory, but it has far more upside than down.  He is a stud of a QB, and I would put him pretty much exactly where Haemish did (in fact, I pretty much agree with his enitre list top to bottom, except for maybe Fitzpatrick who I think still has upside).  The reasons the Charges fail is because of Special Teams and Norv Motherfucking Turner.  The Chargers hating is a little funny, considering they are off to an unusually good start for once.

And Brees is much better than Rapistburgers.  Give me a break.  Steelers over the years are one of the most well rounded teams out there.  They have had good skill position players on offense and a fantastic defense.  Ben helped in those efforts, but the team around him made it a whole lot easier.  I will give him this much:  He has an uncanny ability to get out of trouble and make plays out of it.  Also has an uncanny ability dive for the end zone, clearly NOT make it, and yet still be granted a touchdown that somehow gets upheld after review.  Last but not least, Fuck Rapistburgers.  Nobody is saying he sucks...he's definitely up there.  Just a notch lower than the elite.

[Paelos]

Nobody is saying he sucks...he's definitely up there.  Just a notch lower than the elite.

You are wildly insane if you believe Big Ben isn't an elite QB. He's passed for almost 25,000 yards, won rookie of the year, won 2 Super Bowls, was a pro-bowler, is the only QB to ever register two perfect passing games in one regular season, and has the highest career passer rating in Steelers history.

[ghost]

Yeah, Roethlisberger is better than the people here would like to admit.  Is he helped by being on a good team?  Yes, and sure he's no Payton Manning, but nobody else is.  Roethlisberger is pretty damned good in his own right.

[Paelos]

Well he's a complete dipshit, so I can see how that colors perceptions, but we didn't judge athletes on their off-the-field shit until the internet became big business (unless it was due to performence drugs).

[ghost]

Most athletes are upstanding human beings and excellent role models. 

[HaemishM]

I'm not saying Rothliesberger sucks. He's very good, just not great. Again, I have to point to the fact that the Steelers did not collapse last year with him out 4 games and compare that to the way the Colts have disintegrated without Manning this year, with essentially the same offensive personnel. Looking back at team rushing stats for the years he's won the Super Bowl compared to the year Manning won the Super Bowl, his 2005 season, he had a fantastic running game (over 2,000 rushing yards), the Colts in 2006 had over 1,700 rushing yards and the Steelers in 2008 had over 1600 rushing yards and in 2010 had over 1900 rushing yards. He's always had a running game. But I think if you take him out of that system, put him on a team like say Minnesota where his receivers aren't as good as Mike Wallace and Hines Ward (or Ward and Santonio Holmes or Plaxico Burress like he's had in the past), his numbers will dip dramatically.

[ghost]

Being a winner can put you into "great".  Roethlisberger is a winner.