The Hobbit (2012/2013)

[Sir T]

never fail to be amused by people who hang out with nerds, get into nerd arguments, make a strong statement of fact about the content of a nerd-favored film or book, turn out to be unambiguously wrong, and then a: lack the grace to admit it and b: say, "You guys are a bunch of nerds, who cares anyway."

Which isn't what I said and you know it

Just stick to saying, "I didn't like the scene" and you can't be wrong. At least factually.

You're the guy that loaded up the film just to win an argument on the internet. Not to mention copying out the phrases from the book. Which basically said she had a broken arm and was on her last legs rather than having skin tougher than superman and bouncing around like Xena after the shield broke.

Like I said. the witch kind was defeated and in bits on the ground, and then she whipped offer her helmet to deliver her stupid line. The only thing you "won" is that the guy was on -9 HP rather than dead, and really it doesn't make a damn difference to the lameness of the whole sequence. She ran around and defeated the Witch king and then whipped off her helmet to give her stupid line. And the way it was done was far lamer than the book.

Now if you want to get into the question of whether in fact Merry's the "no man" who is really responsible for nailing the bugger and Eowyn just took him to 0 hp from 2hp, you're deep into Tolkien geekery, because that's a debate that's been knocking around for years.

Or how about I don't give 2 shits about Merry and his masculinity. Anyway the prophecy didn't say anything about the number of non men that would bring the wraith down. Its a completely stupid argument. Like whether the Balrog had wings.

That passage incidentally does a good job of illustrating my utter "WTF?" reaction to people who say he wasn't a good writer.

Its because Tolkien's focus was on the story. He wasn't concerned with his characters deep dark emotional wank history other than as it related to the greater history that the LOTR was the final chapter of. He wanted to describe great events, not spend chapters going into peoples motivation. So people look down on him and call his characters 2 dimensional when in fact they are anything but. Their character is relayed through their actions.

Its also why Sam is actually one of the best developed internally characters in the book. As there wasn't much else to describe while they were trudging through fields in the rain to get to Mordor.

[Khaldun]

 

We need a smiley for "digging the hole you're in even deeper".

[Samwise]

[Ironwood]

Actually, I always kinda liked the idea that the witchking was tripled fucked by Merry - not a man - Eowyn, - not a man - and the blade of Westernesse, which was an epic loot drop from Molten Core back when Merry used to raid, before it became all about random retards sharing loot on the back of Deathwing.

[Ingmar]

Its because Tolkien's focus was on the story. He wasn't concerned with his characters deep dark emotional wank history other than as it related to the greater history that the LOTR was the final chapter of. He wanted to describe great events, not spend chapters going into peoples motivation. So people look down on him and call his characters 2 dimensional when in fact they are anything but. Their character is relayed through their actions.

Its also why Sam is actually one of the best developed internally characters in the book. As there wasn't much else to describe while they were trudging through fields in the rain to get to Mordor.

I'm not sure wtf you're on about, but I was talking about his ability to craft awesome sentences.

[Khaldun]

"Not being sure WTF he's on about" is T's middle name at this point.

Cause I can't help myself, like any nerd, I suppose I ought to point out that Eowyn rips off her helm in the original text, the one that T claims he loves and knows and says has great action that proves character or whatever the phrase he got out of his Cliff Notes' guide.

"...stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were upon her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes."

This directly follows her  "no living man am I" speech, and then there's considerable description of her determination, emotional bad-assery, etc., before she chops off the head of the Witch-King's mount, gets knocked down, and then gets a chance to face-stab him.

Again, the only complaint beyond "I didn't like it" that T can intelligently offer--but I wouldn't want him to start now--is that he doesn't like the change of the sequencing of Eowyn and the Witch-King's dialogue, he doesn't like the way it's acted, or he doesn't like the over-the-top orchestral score or staging. Complaining that she whips off her helm, that she makes a big deal about not being a man, that she is too "Xena-like" etc. just means he doesn't like either the source text OR the film, not that the book doesn't do all the things he doesn't like and is nice and pure. Because, pretty much, it does the same things, only in a different order, with slightly different phrasing, and not using an actress and a CGI effect on a movie screen.

[Ironwood]

Which reminds me of the bad CGI of the Undead army and them 'swarming' over Minas Tirith like a squad of fucking green bees.

That was pretty fucking lame.

[Samwise]

I just want to say that this is the best LotR bitchfest we've ever had.

[Khaldun]

Totally. Not only diverges from the book but sucks whether or not it diverges. The Dead aren't a horde of Magical Scrubbing Bubbles who melt orcs like acid. In this case, that's a result of Jackson abandoning the idea that Aragorn goes on the Paths with his own small military force of elves and Dunedain, so the Dead have to be a full-service deus ex machina rather than just a tipping point. I didn't like it in the film visually or in narrative terms.

That said, I've never been very fond of the Paths of the Dead in the book, either. I think it's one of the dullest sections of the entire narrative, with a lot of telling over showing. (Partly because the key part has to be told retrospectively.)

[Ingmar]

Yeah that is the one part of the book that utterly confused me as a kid.

[Ironwood]

Thing is, he doesn't come back with Dead.  The dead help him liberate the lands to the west and south from which he conscripts an army.

So that whole scene is utter wank.

[lamaros]

That passage incidentally does a good job of illustrating my utter "WTF?" reaction to people who say he wasn't a good writer.

He was a good writer. But I think that part is really good at illustrating the significant weaknessess he has as well as his strengths. His pacing is abysmal, even in that moment it is 'mytholigical lense flare' rather than action. Epic and evocative, yeah, but it's not especially energetic.

Which is great - it's what the books are wonderful at. But it's not objectively 'well written' for people who like reading different stuff.

(Also I misremembered the movie and bow out from supporting Sir T on that point. I did have the sense that the dramatic tension of the movie centred on her statement far more than it did in the book, but that might just be my memory going - or Tolkien not being anywhere near as good at dramatic tension - cheesy or otherwise - as PJ)

Edit: I should say that LotR does have some good bits of dramatic tension, I am being a bit cheeky.

[Merusk]

"Break out the movie?"  Nobody needs to do that, this is 2012 and we have Youtube.  That T couldn't even be arsed to do a simple google says he's just spoiling for a fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAFQdFQdN1s

Dude was stabbed in the knee (and the text says that as well.)  If that was fatal, then the hobbits are more badass than anyone.

Here, have the scene in proper order with dialogue courtesy of Rankin & Bass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWjt6LGhHsI

[01101010]

Dude was stabbed in the knee (and the text says that as well.)  If that was fatal, then the hobbits are more badass than anyone.

Well that was technically a backstab and he probably rolled a crit on it as well - not to mention the fact Hobbits have +agi AND +dex racial bonuses.

[Malakili]

Dude was stabbed in the knee (and the text says that as well.)  If that was fatal, then the hobbits are more badass than anyone.

It isn't that the blade "killed him", it was that it was an enchanted blade that broke Sauron's spell.  It didn't matter where he stabbed him.

[Megrim]

Though, to be fair, being stabbed in the knee by a midget is a painful way to go on both a physical and metaphorical level.

[UnSub]

He used to be a Witch Lord, but then he took a sword to the knee.

... I'll show myself out. Also, while I don't think The Hobbit should be three films, I'll give Jackson the benefit of the doubt since the "LOTR" movies are very enjoyable.

[Lakov_Sanite]

This thread.

[Sir T]

"Not being sure WTF he's on about" is T's middle name at this point.

Actually your big wank was "Well he wasn't actually dead, you know! Therefore I won 1000 internet points and I'm a Tolkien GOD and your bitching about Peter Jacksons brilliance is complete crap" Sadly, in every other respect other than the fact the Witch King wasn't actually dead, everything I wrote was 100% accurate. By your measure. Arnie didn't actually kill the Predator at the end of the movie either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Pelennor_Fields

As dawn breaks, Théoden and the Rohirrim arrive and rout the Orcs in a dramatic charge after a rallying speech from Théoden (a small part taken from Éomer's speech in the book after Théoden's death), in full sight of the armies of Mordor. Unlike the book, in which the hosts of Mordor are dazzled by the light of the rising sun reflecting off the armor of the Rohirrim charging from the west, the movie has the Rohirrim backlit by the sun, inconsistent with the geography of the situation as presented by Tolkien. Also unlike the book, the film makes it clear beforehand that Éowyn has ridden secretly with the others; she does not use the alias "Dernhelm". The Rohirrim then face mûmakil. Théoden orders a second charge against these, which results in many casualties. Nevertheless the Rohirrim bring down some beasts with arrows and spears.

As Théoden is marshalling riders for a third charge, the Witch-king bowls Théoden and his horse over with his fell beast. He is armed with a huge flail (instead of the book's mace) and a sword. Éowyn then faces him. Like in the book she rides with Merry who in this version is aware of her identity and like in the book helps her defeat the Witch-king. She reveals herself as a woman just before giving the Witch-king the fatal blow, whereas in the book she reveals her true nature before they fight. She and Théoden exchange words before the latter dies; in the book Théoden talks to Merry, not Éowyn, before dying

Aside from all that, it was like totally the same, man. And of course a woman with her arm smashed would indulge in lameass smacktalk. 

But hey, you gotta cling to something when your own quotes of Tolkiien prove you are 100% wrong.  

[Cyrrex]

The only fair arguement here is that the scene felt a little hamfisted compared to the book.  In my opinion, this is mostly because the scene in the book was fucking fabulous.  I welled up a little when I first read it, and it gives me the tingles ever time I re-read it.  The movie version was accurate enough, and otherwise serviceable...but it didn't give you the OMG THAT JUST HAPPENED feeling from the book.

The movie just isn't able to convey the significance of what happened.  Shit, they don't really even build up the witch king appropriately to begin with, so it is just another bad guy getting face-rolled. 

But then, that's how movies are.  Pretty much always.  Which is why I find all the nerdfighting to be ridiculous.  By the nature of what they are, the two mediums will always convey a different message. 

[01101010]

I am not sure I am entertained by this thread, astonished, perplexed, or just flat out horrified.

[Hutch]

I just want to say that this is the best LotR bitchfest we've ever had.

You're welcome 

[Ironwood]

Lore freaks get all cunty about the idea that the Ents aren't really tree-people, but I've read the books as fucking often as the lore-whores and I'd be willing to get into an exegesis knife-fight with them and argue that the visualization in the Jackson films is reasonable enough.

What freaks are you talking about ?  Because they're 100% wrong.  Ents are totally tree-people and, oh, I dunno, who's that guy, oh yeah, TOLKIEN said so, IN HIS BOOKS.

I wish you'd all stop talking to these MENTAL friends of yours because they're WRONG.

[Khaldun]

T, sweetheart, you're talking about the entire Pelennor Fields battle now. I know this may be confusing to you, but that's: a) lots more stuff in the book and b) lots more stuff in the movie. I know that's a technical concept, but I think you can probably get your head around it if you try.

[Pennilenko]

 

[murdoc]

I literally have a page from 'Return of the King' tattoo'd on my arm and you guys make me look reasonable.

[Sir T]

T, sweetheart, you're talking about the entire Pelennor Fields battle now. I know this may be confusing to you, but that's: a) lots more stuff in the book and b) lots more stuff in the movie. I know that's a technical concept, but I think you can probably get your head around it if you try.

K, Darling, I just cut in 2 paragraphs of an entire fucking article because those paragraphs dealt with all the changes to that particular scene. I actually just had one paragraph till I reread it that they also talked about Denethor. See the "edited" tab on the bottom for when I slotted it in? Sorry for being a completest and stuff. I'm glad I gave you an opportunity to hit me with your Mace Flail.

If was was being pedantic I would have said that the king talking to his daughter as he lay dying rather than some midget he had met a couple of weeks back is better. But then Eowyn was unconscious from pain in the book, but she was just so manly in the film that she was able to Rambo through it, ya know.

I literally have a page from 'Return of the King' tattoo'd on my arm and you guys make me look reasonable.

Glad to help!  What page, out of curiosity?

[Khaldun]

To be a pedant you actually have to know something.

[Ironwood]

*insert picture of Puss In Boots cat going 'ooooooh' here*


http://youtu.be/LKpnZ7cwWuY

[Evildrider]

[sickrubik]

[Sir T]

http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/pedants.html

Significant Events of the Millennium
1 January 1000    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the second Millennium.
1 January 1001    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the second Millennium.

1 January 1100    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the twelfth century.
1 January 1101    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the twelfth century.

1 January 1200    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the thirteenth century.
1 January 1201    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the thirteenth century.

1 January 1300    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the fourteenth century.
1 January 1301    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the fourteenth century.

10 June 1381    The Pedants' Revolt reaches London. (Not the Pedants' Revolt, the Peasants' Revolt. (sgd.) A Pedant. And kindly close the brackets.) (Thank you.)

1 January 1400    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the fifteenth century.
1 January 1401    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the fifteenth century.

1 January 1500    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the sixteenth century.
1 January 1501    Pedants celebrate the beginning of the sixteenth century.

1 January 1600    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the seventeenth century.
1 January 1601    People begin to get really fed up with pedants.

1 January 1700    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the eighteenth century.
1 January 1701    A few pedants begin to notice that pedants tend not to have very good celebrations.

1 January 1800    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the nineteenth century. A splinter group of ex-pedants turn up and get very drunk.
1 January 1801    The rest of the pedants celebrate the beginning of the nineteenth century.

1 January 1900    Almost everyone celebrates the beginning of the twentieth century. No pedants allowed.
1 January 1901    Pedants hold a Morris dancing festival.

24 November 1996    The Digital Village web site goes online: the third Millennium starts early and catches everybody by surprise.

1 January 2000    Anybody who even mentions the Millennium gets garrotted.
1 January 2001    Massacre of the Pedants.

[Samwise]

If was was being pedantic I would have said that the king talking to his daughter as he lay dying rather than some midget he had met a couple of weeks back is better.

If I were being pedantic I would point out that Eowyn is Theoden's niece, not his daughter.

[Ironwood]

M-M-M-m-m-m-m-monnnnnster Kill !!!

[proudft]