Pen and Paper D&D

[proudft]

I got some of those a few weeks back, haven't painted em yet.  The hezrous & lizardmen are quite a bit smaller than I expected, fyi.   I guess it says the hezrous are 32mm tall right there on the site, but I don't speak metric.  

[Ratman_tf]

In case there are any kids who played 1st ed, I wanted to share these: http://www.otherworld.me.uk/store.html

I'm a sucker for the nostalgia.

Wow. Those are seriously great. Characterful minis that retain that old school charm.

If I didn't have a table full of projects already, I'd get some.

[Lantyssa]

Amazing casts and even more amazing paint jobs on those.

[Bunk]

6. Fix it Nerf it to the point that no one wants to use in the next edition. 

I kid somewhat. I really didn't want to get in to this one, because I fully understand why they changed it. Being in a 3.5/PF party with a underprepared guy with a ton of summoning/followers/henchmen is anoying to say the least.

I just don't think that effectively putting your main character in stasis when his pet acts is exactly the solution I was looking for.

[Ingmar]

It actually works out ok in play, basically everything gets to at least move when you move, and most of the pet-involved powers involve things like 'you make an attack, then your pet does X' sort of things. There's a lot of argument on 4e forums that the beastmaster ranger is underpowered but that is due to power design and scaling, not so much the action economy. The wizard summons are the lamer ones, since they really do burn your actions to do their thing for the most part. Druid summons have an 'instinctive action', which is what they do at the end of your turn if you didn't order them to do something else, which is what they really should have done with the wizard ones. Possibly they'll get errata some day.

[Sky]

Hoooouse Ruuuules!  

[Fordel]

Keep in mind the instinctive actions also have drawbacks half the time. Lots of them are nearest CREATURE, not Enemy, for example. 

[Sjofn]

I actively detest those slow ass motherfuckers.  These assholes don't pay attention to shit other than the thumb up their own ass while it's not their turn and then are surprised when people are waiting on them. 

One of our slowbies is less "wasn't paying attention" and more "wants to make The Most Optimal Choice Possible" and will spend an hour debating the merits of her choice with herself if we let her. She's not very good at just making a snap decision and if it is slightly less than awesome in its result, oh well. The other slow guy just ... really likes to think. And think. And think. But then we start making suggestions. So he has to think about those. And then we make more, which is totally not actually helpful, etc. Proudft forbade us from talking during his turn a couple of times. 

I miss that guy. His wife had some babies and he disappeared. Stupid babies!

[Sheepherder]

Druid summons have an 'instinctive action', which is what they do at the end of your turn if you didn't order them to do something else, which is what they really should have done with all of them the wizard ones. Possibly they'll get errata some day.

[Ingmar]

Um, the wizard and druid ones are pretty much the only ones of note. What else even has a summons, the binder has a massive two powers over 30 levels?

[Fordel]

Artificer has plenty. Well, "plenty" for the number of total powers it has thanks to being forgotten about :(

[Ingmar]

Oh right, them. Their stuff goes into the same 'early stuff' bucket as the wizard, really.

[Fordel]

They didn't even get into arcane power. 

[Ingmar]

They didn't even get into arcane power. 

Well given they came out 2 months after Arcane Power that should hardly be a surprise. 

[Fordel]

That's just poor planning.

[Sheepherder]

Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Artificer, Shaman, and Invoker have pets/summons of varying use.  One Psion paragon path has a summon that works like the druid ones.  Anything that can take the Familiar feat can get a pet that has a few niche uses.  Thematically speaking Warlocks and Sorcerers probably should have the capacity to summon shit, but don't.

They probably should have settled on a set of rules for core gameplay before shipping books.

Also, my opinion concerning magically controlled NPC's:

1. The actual control of the NPC is given to a second player.
2. Player(1) gets to dictate instructions, player(2) carries them out in whatever way seems appropriate for a magically dominated NPC.
3. If player(1) doesn't make up their damn mind, player(2) gets to act independently.  Either they continue to carry out the last order, or they do something else "helpful".
4. The results of saving throws to break domination are between the DM and player(2).  Neither are allowed to tell or signal that the domination is breaking.
5. The reward for the player actually controlling the Balor is knowing when to slowly back away.

[Ingmar]

There's no reason for the ranger/sentinel pets to function like the shaman spirit, nor the arcane familiar, nor like the druid/wizard/invoker/artificer daily summons. They serve different purposes. The rules for all of them are really not terribly complicated, either.

[Sheepherder]

Erm, there is totally a reason for the ranger pets to behave like the druid ones: they're both beasts.

So, off the top of your head, what's the rule for a mage wizard summon you want to open a door?  Simple enough, right?

EDIT: Curses!

EDIT2: While we're at it, how do you get the summon to then walk through the door and attack something?

[Ingmar]

Erm, there is totally a reason for the ranger pets to behave like the druid ones: they're both beasts.

So, off the top of your head, what's the rule for a mage wizard summon you want to open a door?  Simple enough, right?

EDIT: Curses!

One is a daily summons, the other one is a permanent pet. They're not functionally similar in role at all.

Off the top of my head, actual summons (as in things that are summoned by powers with the summoning keyword) can't take any actions that aren't specified in the power, except for moving when you burn a minor action to order them. So no opening doors unless the power says so.

If you want to have this slapfight we should probably not shit up the general interest thread, though.

[Sheepherder]

The role is completely different, but that doesn't mean you need to dictate a completely new set of rules for basic control of that creature.

Anyways, point being: if you have to look it up to be certain they really haven't done that good a job at simplifying it, have they?  It's just that now instead of looking up stat blocks you're now looking up whether you and your Gaping Maw can walk through the door you opened and still have an action point to toss a spell.

EDIT: By the way, the above example can't be done by a summoner wizard, but a beast master ranger can.

EDIT2: And I've more or less said my piece.  We can now move on to how shaman spirits take damage.

EDIT3: And if proudft starts installing doors in every dungeon room and corridor when somebody is playing a summoner wizard or druid don't blame me.

[Fordel]

Shaman Spirits are pretty complex in their interactions. Did you know they can hover?

[Sheepherder]

You probably should not get me started.   Seriously though, I didn't.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were other things I was missing as well, though I'm wondering where you found that bit since the PHB2's stat block on shaman summons is... nonexistent.

[proudft]

Some light reading: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22949629/Shaman_Spirit_Companion_FAQ     

[Ingmar]

The shaman spirit is a conjuration, not a summons, so it doesn't need a stat block!

The only real problem is the HP threshold to kill it scales badly at higher level. Should be getting +1 per level instead of +1/2 per level to scale appropriately with the new monster math.

[Sheepherder]

The shaman spirit is a conjuration, not a summons, so it doesn't need a stat block!

Only if you don't mind your DM Googling it while you wait to know whether you conjuring it in midair causes  or !

[Fordel]

I really dig the shaman spirit mechanic, they just need to give con shamans a way to get actual AC.

[Sheepherder]

I really dig the shaman spirit mechanic, they just need to give con shamans a way to get actual AC.

You just like it because a level 1 shaman can run his spirit into a room full of Kobolds, hide by the door, and watch it go about it's grim business, don't you?

[Fordel]

It doesn't actually have any attacks of it's own technically!

[Sheepherder]

Do the shaman powers that result in the spirit attacking reveal the shaman?  I believe we need a rules lawyer here.

[Fordel]

Yes, since the spirit never attacks, the shaman attacks with the target square/range being the spirit.


Unless of course the shaman has some other means of preventing reveal upon attacking, few feats like that.

[Sheepherder]

You have some weirdly bloodthirsty DMs. Either that or you are the bloodthirsty DM.

Dredging this back up, because summon/conjuration argument brought me to the Wizards of the Coast forums, which is delightful.

WotC:  Hey dudes, Guess what?  We've got vampires!  Unbreathing, unaging, bloodthirsty undead that take sun damage!  Pack a cloak!  Isn't this shit awesome?
DM: Yes, but if they're wearing a heavy cloak how do I use it to kill players?

Also, I thought I saw something somewhere that the shaman spirit is considered the source of the attack, will investigate further.

[Morat20]

Lovely take on the how "How to I fuck my paladins into being fighters with no bonus feats" in the thread there. :)

Then again, my DM's wanted a player to have a strict code -- not necessarily adhere to one in a book. Falling as a Paladin was rather difficult if you played even remotely to alignment.

Still, a cloak hmm....hope it's fireproof. It'd suck for the vampire race to be really screwed from the fireballs eating their cloak.

[Strazos]

Magical Burkas! 

[Fordel]

Still, a cloak hmm....hope it's fireproof. It'd suck for the vampire race to be really screwed from the fireballs eating their cloak.

How often do you normally 'burn away' a non-vampires clothing after a fireball?

[Sheepherder]

Are they good looking and have resist fire?

This one is pretty good too.