Pen and Paper D&D

[Morfiend]

I used to play D&D all the time when I was younger and had more time. I was the DM, and had a hugh collection of 2nd Edition books and a few 3rd. Some of my friends have recently been bugging me to start up another campaign, and it sounds like fun. So, I need to get back in to it. I am pretty excited to try 4th edition.

On to my questions.

What books do I need. We had an aborted attempt to start a campaign up like 6 to 9 months ago, and I bought a players handbook and a dungeon masters guide. Should I continue on with this set of 4th edition, or is there a new edition coming any time soon. If I should continue with this, I will make most of my players purchase Players Handbooks also.

Can anyone give me any advice on playing 4th Ed?

I also would like to purchase a dungeon adventure for my players. Something low level, and focused on dungeon crawling and not so much on roleplaying, which my groups isnt to into.

[Samwise]

4th Ed is focused pretty strongly on miniature-based combat, so most adventures you get are probably not going to have much in the way of roleplaying.  On that note, you'll want to get some minis you like, at least for the PCs, because you're going to spend a lot of time moving them around a grid.

Everyone I know who plays a lot of 4th Ed has about a dozen books, because the core books leave a lot of stuff out.  If I were going to start a 4th Ed game I'd probably try to limit it to core books and ban anything else (as I did with 2nd Ed because I didn't want to have to keep track of shit that was in books I didn't own and didn't want to buy), but I'd probably get a lot of grousing about how I was nerfing this or that class because they need the stuff in supplement XYZ to be balanced and I'd probably end up caving in and dropping about $200 on more books.  So, keep that in mind as a possible danger.

[Bzalthek]

Last summer I did a lot of work on 4th Edition.  I do no believe they have any immediate plans on a new edition.

My first set of advice is to download a torrent of the books.  I much prefer having books but right now I can't afford 100 bucks to buy all three players handbooks. 

Next, make sure you go through the books and prune what you want in your campaign.  Much like other editions, the more shit that they add in bloats the power levels of characters.  For example the third players handbook contains a psionic mineral-type pc.  Each of the handbooks for powersets also provide many new abilities which may not be suitable.

Be prepared for minatures and proper grid/tiles for your dungeons.  I painted up a huge set of handmade wood tiles.  The entire concept of 4th edition is set around miniature use.  All the powers of players and monsters are very clearly set down, and if you don't have accurate representation on the table of where shit is, you can lose a lot of gameplay power on either side.  This also requires you to be very familiar with rules and semantics.  Shifting, moving, voluntary movement, all can trigger abilities for example.

Don't be afraid to customize.  There is no more 'Kobold is half a hit die'  You can make whatever you want whatever level you want.  Utilizing the formulae for encounters based on character levels and number of them, it's easy to write up encounters full of stock mobs and custom mobs.  Since my group fluctuated in players present, I typically wrote up encounters for 3-7 players and it wasn't that difficult.

I have little in the way of dungeon adventures experiences, but the few I did play in were assrape.  Though I suspect that's because the DM was an idiot and didn't adjust it for players and levels.

[Sky]

Oh man, 4th ed is mini-based? I wondered why they were pushing so many painted plastics at the bookstore.

For 1st ed, we used an 8' cafeteria-style table covered in plexi and grease pencils for mapping/notes/art/etc. Worked really well and didn't cost much.

[Morfiend]

We actually used to make all our campaigns pretty miniature based so that actually sounds really good to me. I have a big box full of minis, and two big rollout vinal maps covered with hexes that I can use a dry erase on to draw stuff.

[Ingmar]

The 4e landscape has gotten fairly complicated lately with the addition of the Essentials line, which is not a new edition or a 'basic' version of the game - everything is fully compatible - but it does contain somewhat simplified versions of the classes that would probably be somewhat easier for new players to get into.

Probably the easiest way to do it is actually for someone in the group to pick up a subscription to their online thing, which gets you access to the character builder and all the material from every source, which is kept updated with all the errata and rules changes, and just have that person keep all the characters built in the online builder or whatever. It also gets you access to a crapload of pre-made adventures.

The only actual book you'd probably need to have at hand (assuming you had a web browser handy at your play site to look crap up in the compendium about powers and feats and such) is the Rules Compendium (http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Compendium-Essential-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786956216/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1302291329&sr=8-2) as the online thing doesn't have the actual game rules anywhere, just the powers/stat blocks/feats/etc. The Rules Compendium is the latest, best-indexed version of the actual rules of the game and I wouldn't skip it no matter which way you choose to go.

4th Ed is focused pretty strongly on miniature-based combat, so most adventures you get are probably not going to have much in the way of roleplaying.

These things don't really have much to do with each other. The amount of roleplaying involved in a game is always down to the players, not the system.

Having some sort of battlemat and tokens to use for monsters and characters is pretty much essential for 4e, however. They don't sell the plastic minis line anymore but there is the Monster Vault available (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Vault-Essential-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786956313/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302291370&sr=1-1) which has a bunch of cardboard tokens with monster art on them, that would probably be the best choice for starting out. You could also go crazy with dungeon tiles and stuff but the easiest thing would be just to get a traditional old vinyl battlemat (I think the Chessex ones are still the standard) and some wet-erase pens (Vis-a-vis overhead markers are the traditional choice - don't use dry erase.)

HOWEVER. All that said, you could just play with the original PHB and DMG and Monster Manual and have a fine old time, nothing says you have to play with all the errata and rules and balance changes and whatnot that have happened since those books came out. (You still need the mat and tokens though.)

[Morfiend]

I just wanted to say that this was probably the best premade dungeon I ever did. (I mostly designed my own dungeons). I was hoping to find something like this. I am not afraid to make my own, but for the first adventure as I am relearning new rules and stuff it would be easer to not have to rely on my own dungeon also.

[Stewie]

I'd strongly recommend trying pathfinder (essentially D&D 3.75)
I really wanted to like 4th ed, bought the books etc. Played and ran a campaign. IMHO it just doesn't hold a candle to what Paizo (the publisher for Pathfinder) has done with the OGL and 3.5.

Paizo also has whole adventure paths. They are a string of modules. The first in a series takes characters from like 1-5 the next 6-10 and so on. Each building on the story of the previous.  


The reasons I like pathfinder better.
- it feels like you have more customization as a player. <- this may have changed with recent updates to 4ed
- The source books seem more focused
- everything about the game feels like it was made for d&d'rs by d&d'rs (if that makes any sense)
- it feels like a natural progression from where d&d was.
- the loot system in 4ed is just silly (woot I have a magic sword that can crit once a day!)
- I just liked it better :P

[Ingmar]

Pathfinder is still fun as a player (one of the groups I play in is running it instead of 4e and I am having plenty of fun.) However, I will never run a 3.5-type game, ever again. The difference in DM prep time for 4e, especially at high levels, is markedly in 4e's favor.

[JWIV]

I really like 4th ed - it's treated me pretty well.   If you do their insider thing, you get the Character Builder, which is awesome, as well as access to the Scales of War adventure path (which is pretty damn good).  There's also a wiki for the scales path which contains maps you can print out on cardstock and cut for insta battlemats (I have access to super cheap printing, so it worked out well).

Things to immediately toss - the skill challenge system.  It's fucking awful.  

The essentials line streamlines things fairly well, and fixes some of the issues with Player HP/Damage vs Monster HP/Damage, but in general, anything that isn't out of the Monster Manual 3 book or later, you'll want to increase the damage a touch and cut the hitpoints by at least 33%.  Don't be afraid to tweak this as you get a better feel for your parties damage throughput.  

[Stewie]

yeah there's no doubt that the prep time and options that wizards has provided (wheres the fucken dungeon creator you promised!!!) makes life easy.

That being said the Paizo adventure paths are awesome and then its only reading up before the session. You don't get much easier than that.

Of course if you are going homebrew for your campaign, then 4ed is nice.

[Ingmar]

JWIV is right that skill challenges right out of the book are... not good. DMG2 has some updated rules that make them work a little better, I can't remember if those are in the RC. They work alright for things like complicated traps and such, the social ones are where they tend to really break down I think.

[Bunk]

Stewie pointed me here hoping I would explode all over the thread. He finds "flaws" in 4ed. I hate it with a burning passion.

I've played every version from the the basic box on, and each generation added something new to the whole genre. 4ed, just threw most of it out the window and said "let's make a table top mini game, give it powers that will remind people of WOW, and slap the D&D name on it."

4ed is not a bad game. It also however, is not D&D.

I could rant and rave about the draconian "balance" rules in the game, the complete lack of flavor, the abandonment of Vancian magic (heresy!), the cookie cutterness of the classes, the requirement of the holy quadrinity (tank, DPS, CC, Healer), the bloat of books adding more cookie cutter classes with the same rules and powers, but with different names...

Generally, I've stopped doing that. People ask me why I don't like it? I respond, "it doesn't feel like D&D - it feels like a board game".

Pathfinder however, I'm in love with. Yea, it has many of the flaws of 3.5, but they've made a real effort to adress many of the worst faults. Ultimately though, it lets the players decide whether or not they are going to play a challenging, balanced game - or if they are going to play over the top munchkins. 4ed basically hardcoded those kind of options right out of the game.

Recent Pathfinder game: Young woman raised in a monestary that was raided by river pirates. She survived and eventually joined the pirates. Monk 1/Fighter 6 (one hander)/Duelist 2. Specialized in fighting with just a rapier, had AC through the roof (all dodge) but didn't do much damage. Focused on moving around the fight, utilizing terrain, and when all else failed - kicking the Orc in the nuts (Improved Dirty Fighting). Had fights where I was jumping and swinging from ropes, flipping over tables, all that sort of stuff.

It was an underpowered, but fun character to play. It would have been impossible to reproduce the character in 4ed, and even more impossible to replicate a quarter of the tactics I would use. "Sorry, you can't swing from that rope at the Orc and try to kick him in the face, you already used that power this fight!"

I am currently playing a Pathfinder game we just started. I'm a Goblin Rogue 1/Ranger 1, disguised as a Dwarf named Harry Stonehead.  I have stilts and a fake beard to improve my disguise. I spend half my time trying to fool my party, and the other half sneaking my stilts on and off so I can move around the battlefield. I wouldn't even dream of trying to replicate a character like that in 4ed.

[Evildrider]

I'm a hater on 4ed.  I haven't played in a few years because of most of my pen and paper buddies getting married and having kids.  However we were still playing 2nd edition with some of our own house rules.  3ed was meh, never tried the Pathfinder stuff though.  I think if you don't want to spend an arm and a leg you are better off just tweaking your second edition game.  I still think its my favorite of the rule sets, but probably because I'm being nostalgic about it. 

Last time I looked at 4ed they had like 3 different DM guides and 3 different Players handbooks... let alone having to buy Monster Manuals, etc.

[Ingmar]

It was an underpowered, but fun character to play. It would have been impossible to reproduce the character in 4ed, and even more impossible to replicate a quarter of the tactics I would use. "Sorry, you can't swing from that rope at the Orc and try to kick him in the face, you already used that power this fight!"

Meh, I don't really want to turn this into an edition war, but DMG, pg 42. 4e actually does handle improvised attacks and such, I don't know why people always ignore those rules in these discussions.

I have a character, a dwarf fighter, that I've been playing on and off since 1996  (2nd edition) in proudft's game. 4e is the first system that really has the character on the table actually match the one in my head, he can actually do all sorts of cool shit now. Yeah, I do have other characters who didn't translate as well, but that happened every edition change. I think what 4e did in particular for the non-spellcaster classes was great.

That said I guess we are drifting off topic a bit.

[Ingmar]

Also for the Pathfinder people, if you're not using it, this seems to be the go-to character software: http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab

Their interface and license activation scheme is from like 1995, but it is very comprehensive otherwise. The group I'm playing PF with uses it and it is pretty nice to have.

[Evildrider]

Anyway you should just skip D&D and play Cyberpunk 2020 anyway!   

[Lantyssa]

I've played every version from the the basic box on, and each generation added something new to the whole genre. 4ed, just threw most of it out the window and said "let's make a table top mini game, give it powers that will remind people of WOW, and slap the D&D name on it."

Hah.  One of my old friends from college e-mailed me recently on this.  I had a similar diatribe about 3rd Ed, and he said he finally got it after playing 4th.  (FWiW I enjoy 3rd Ed, it's just very different from 1st and 2nd.)

Morfiend will have to try it out for himself and see.

[Mazakiel]

I guess I'll chime in with my love of Pathfinder over 4e.  We played a 4e campaign for close to a year, but no one ever really got into it very well, and it was pretty much falling apart due to lack of interest on the part of just about everyone.  We switched to a Pathfinder game, and now everyone's much more excited about game night. 

Besides all the stuff others have mentioned, Paizo's campaigns really are pretty well done.  I'm currently running their Kingmaker campaign, and the party's about to start building their own nation from the area they've spent the first few months exploring and pacifying.  Assuming things go well, by the end of the campaign path they should have a pretty impressive kingdom built up.  They also seem to try to change things up between their various campaign paths.  The one they just started publishing is supposed to be very horror-themed. 

I'll also echo the recommendation for Hero Builder from earlier in the thread.  I've been using it a lot with the current game. 

If you're set on wanting 4e, though, I'd definitely recommend taking a look at their D&D Insider/character builder setup.  I found it to be pretty useful for when we were playing the 4e campaign.  If you start getting outside of the first core books, though, you'll probably run into power-creep.  It was something we felt was becoming an issue towards the end of our 4e campaign, along with the cost of keeping up with all the supplements.  Miniatures were never an issue for us because we use MapTools for our games due to everyone being scattered around the world. 

[Ingmar]

I'm actually looking at converting Kingmaker to 4e, I think it will work very well.

[Ingmar]

Another nifty 4e tool btw: https://power2ool.com/login/

[Mazakiel]

From what we've played of it so far, I'd say it'd be pretty worth the effort.  It's pretty sandboxish for a campaign path, and the kingdom building aspect really has the party psyched to play.  I'm honestly a bit jealous that I'm running it instead of playing.  

[Ingmar]

The exploration/kingdom building rules are pretty edition-independent too, that is nice.

[WayAbvPar]

Anyway you should just skip D&D and play Cyberpunk 2020 anyway!   

I wasn't a huge fan of 3e (although it did have some cool bits), and everything I hear about 4e makes me think I am not gonna like it at all. Good thing I have neither the time nor the disposable income the flush away on it.

[Morfiend]

Anyway you should just skip D&D and play Cyberpunk 2020 anyway!  

I wasn't a huge fan of 3e (although it did have some cool bits), and everything I hear about 4e makes me think I am not gonna like it at all. Good thing I have neither the time nor the disposable income the flush away on it.

I really would like to play my Warhammer 40k RPG book I bought a while ago, but of this new group im putting together, 2 of the 4 have never played pen and paper, and kind of want "to try dungeons and dragons".

As for me playing 2nd or 3rd Ed. The second edition books I had was a group collection, probably 40 books in all, and it was not mine to keep, so I passed it to the guy who took over DMing that group. Also, it seems that my roommate lent most of my 3rd ed books to a friend who was running a 3rd ed campaign.

I am pretty set on playing 4th edition for right now, as its something new for me to sink my teeth in to, and also its D&D. I might look in to that essentials stuff, as that would make it easer for my newbies.

[Sjofn]

Bunk, your special snowflake duelist? I have a character that does all that "move around the fight, control where people are, leaps over tables" shit. She's a 4th Edition charisma-based rogue. I assume the difference is I can't say I'm a monk 1/fighter 6/duelist 2, nor can I say she's underpowered but interesting. She's balanced and interesting instead.

[Ghambit]

Screw cpunk2020, Srun4e fo' life nigga!  

Anyway you should just skip D&D and play Cyberpunk 2020 anyway!  

I wasn't a huge fan of 3e (although it did have some cool bits), and everything I hear about 4e makes me think I am not gonna like it at all. Good thing I have neither the time nor the disposable income the flush away on it.

I really would like to play my Warhammer 40k RPG book I bought a while ago, but of this new group im putting together, 2 of the 4 have never played pen and paper, and kind of want "to try dungeons and dragons".

As for me playing 2nd or 3rd Ed. The second edition books I had was a group collection, probably 40 books in all, and it was not mine to keep, so I passed it to the guy who took over DMing that group. Also, it seems that my roommate lent most of my 3rd ed books to a friend who was running a 3rd ed campaign.

I am pretty set on playing 4th edition for right now, as its something new for me to sink my teeth in to, and also its D&D. I might look in to that essentials stuff, as that would make it easer for my newbies.

I hear great things about the new FantasyFlight rendition of Warhammer... y'know that uber-huge big box thing with the buncha bits.  And therein lies the key.  You get great lore, a 4e-like combat system, and lotsa shiny bits to play with at the same time.  I just wish someone would come out with an original IP that offered similar.

[Fordel]

Recent Pathfinder game: Young woman raised in a monestary that was raided by river pirates. She survived and eventually joined the pirates. Monk 1/Fighter 6 (one hander)/Duelist 2. Specialized in fighting with just a rapier, had AC through the roof (all dodge) but didn't do much damage. Focused on moving around the fight, utilizing terrain, and when all else failed - kicking the Orc in the nuts (Improved Dirty Fighting). Had fights where I was jumping and swinging from ropes, flipping over tables, all that sort of stuff.

That's a Iron Soul Monk in 4ed. 




The difference in my mind, between 3rd (and its spin offs) and 4th edition, is 3rd edition is a simulator and 4th is a game.

3rd edition tried to make rules fit a pre-existing 'world', balance be damned. Fourth Edition has the fluff support the baseline mechanics.

3rd is fine for what it is, but I'm glad they moved into 4th, superior system in my mind.



http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/23/ 

[JWIV]

Anyway you should just skip D&D and play Cyberpunk 2020 anyway!  

I wasn't a huge fan of 3e (although it did have some cool bits), and everything I hear about 4e makes me think I am not gonna like it at all. Good thing I have neither the time nor the disposable income the flush away on it.

I really would like to play my Warhammer 40k RPG book I bought a while ago, but of this new group im putting together, 2 of the 4 have never played pen and paper, and kind of want "to try dungeons and dragons".

I would love to run either a Dark Heresy or Deathwatch game in addition to my 4E game, but I just don't have enough 40K fans in my group to pull it off.  *sigh*

[Bunk]

Bunk, your special snowflake duelist? I have a character that does all that "move around the fight, control where people are, leaps over tables" shit. She's a 4th Edition charisma-based rogue. I assume the difference is I can't say I'm a monk 1/fighter 6/duelist 2, nor can I say she's underpowered but interesting. She's balanced and interesting instead.

She was a special snowflake damnit (until some asshole DM killed her *sniff*)

Seriously, don't get me wrong, I think 4th has a lot of merits, I just don't think it lends it self to "creative" players. Everything seemed balanced to the extreme. I don't want a super cool ability to fly 30" across the map, knock three guys down, trigger a healing surge, and make the third one pee his pants - once a day at the cost of me being able to activate one of my magic items all day - even in the middle of wide open plain. I want it to have to come up organically as part of the encounter, not be something I do automatically once a day.

I know what Ingmar is getting at with the pg 42 rules and such, and knowing you guys I have a feeling that Ingmar can make 4ed fun *despite itself*. Not every DM (not most) can do that.

I like to play gimmicky, kitchen sink characters. I like to try characters that don't "fit the mold" of character design - my duelist was essentially a fighter, who's second highest stat was Wisdom, and she had 10 str. I like to collect silly little, neer pointless magic items, and find uses for them. All of these things would essentially be penalized in 4ed. How many books in to 4ed were we before that Monk option you mentioned (sorry, Fordel mentioned) was printed btw? My Duelist was built entirely on the core book, with the exception of the One-Hander, which is essentially just a tweak from the first expansion hardcover they printed.

I'll stop, every time I do this it sounds like I'm trying to convince people to hate 4ed, which is not my intent. Rather, I just want people to know that if they liked aspects of 3.5, but felt it was bloated and broken, Pathfinder really is worth the look.

[Ingmar]

They got rid of the cap on daily item power activations, btw., which really was a pretty annoying rule. Actually that leads me into what is not exactly a complaint, but I do have kind of a love/hate relationshp with how the Insider/Compendium thing simultaneously is awesome because it lets them easily fix broken rules/powers but also sucks because the books get way more out of date than they used to.

And yeah PF really is a better 3.5 than 3.5 if that's what you want, I agree. Except for orcs, god I hate PF orcs.

[Fordel]

Monks are in PHB3, the Iron Soul feature is from Psionic Power, though it isn't actually required to be the single weapon monk, it's just tailored to it.

Sjofn's suggestion of Artful Dodger Rogue is from PHB1, available right from the get go.

You could also just go with a plain old Fighter with a high dex score, little multiclassing into rogue or whatnot.





The point where I'll fight you Bunk (put up yer dukes  ), is in this idea that 4ed doesn't allow the same customization as previous editions. It's simply not true. It has all the weird gimmicky items and unusual character builds you could think of.

Like:

I am currently playing a Pathfinder game we just started. I'm a Goblin Rogue 1/Ranger 1, disguised as a Dwarf named Harry Stonehead.  I have stilts and a fake beard to improve my disguise. I spend half my time trying to fool my party, and the other half sneaking my stilts on and off so I can move around the battlefield. I wouldn't even dream of trying to replicate a character like that in 4ed.

That's just a high bluff skill and a disguise kit, maybe toss in thievery for sleight of hand shenanigans. You could go Rogue with MC Ranger, or Ranger with MC Rogue, or Hybrid Ranger/Rogue. I see nothing at all preventing you from doing that character in 4e.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, my suggestion was from the very first PHB of 4th, although I'm not sure if some of the things that will make her awesome one day existed back then. I know my rogue's race didn't (she's a changeling ... so she has aspects of your goblin snowflake, in that she goes out of her way to present herself as a boring ol' human and she is the most epic liar I have ever played).

Point is, 4th actually is very flexible on the character building front, you just have to get over not having three classes listed as your "class." Hell, my rogue and Ingmar's rogue in another party could not possibly be more different. I control the battlefield by pushing and pulling and scurrying. Ingmar's controls it by murdering the fuck out of people. He's a str-based rogue and terrifying. 



Don't know if INGMAR could make 4th Edition fun "in spite of itself" either ... proudft is our DM. 

[Ingmar]

Yeah I am not running a game at the moment, but I am getting the itch.

[Sheepherder]

Monks are in PHB3, the Iron Soul feature is from Psionic Power, though it isn't actually required to be the single weapon monk, it's just tailored to it.

Sjofn's suggestion of Artful Dodger Rogue is from PHB1, available right from the get go.

You could also just go with a plain old Fighter with a high dex score, little multiclassing into rogue or whatnot.

Or two weapon ranger, skipping the moves that require two weapons if you so choose, or declare your fist as an offhand weapon.  I don't even have a group to play D&D, but looking through the 4e PHB1 PDF I can find a way to accomplish more or less what Bunk wants with Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger.  Particularly if the DM does his damn job and lets you go batshit crazy with the improvised attacks.

Yeah, my suggestion was from the very first PHB of 4th, although I'm not sure if some of the things that will make her awesome one day existed back then. I know my rogue's race didn't (she's a changeling ... so she has aspects of your goblin snowflake, in that she goes out of her way to present herself as a boring ol' human and she is the most epic liar I have ever played).

It doesn't take much to extrapolate from the Monster Manual doppleganger, as long as your players don't throw a shitfit because it's not official Wizards of the Coast™ rules.  Then again, in my view that's half the point of having a DM.