Cracks starting to show?

[Ingmar]

Hmm?  Granted, it has been a LONG time since i played through the Dustwallow marsh content, but I dont recall ANY horde quests in Dustwallow that actively sent you against theramore agents, unless it was for a fairly reasonable cause. 

They weren't on Horde quests, it was on Alliance quests - basically the commanders in the field kept clearing out infiltrators and fighting off Horde (not just Tauren) raids, but thanked you for taking care of stuff without telling Jaina since she wouldn't approve.

I definitely remember killing stealthed Alliance around the ogre camp in Dustwallow as a Horde character. I don't remember killing any non-Grimtotem Horde, at least in the old version of Dustwallow. You do find the dead remains of an orc spy that the creepy swamp eye dude murdered, but that was it.

[Simond]

This:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3300854#blog

Back in December, I wrote a blog post about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works...

Plus this:

(tl;dr "Please come back normal players. We have stuff you can actually do now")

Equals "Oh fuck, why did we ever listen to the poopsockers?" 

[Lakov_Sanite]

lol all the firelands dailies bullshit is WHY I finally quit.

[Paelos]

Since Ingmar hates when I do this, I'm going to cut through all the PR speak Ghostcrawler said in that post to get to the meat of the matter:

[caladein]

Given all of that, and watching how many people quit in the last few months, we’re pulling a 180 and going back to vanilla when threat was irrelevent.

That was confusing for a few seconds until I realized you play Alliance.

Also, Misdirection is fun.

[Rendakor]

•As I said in the previous blog post, dps hate waiting. They love going full out all the time and don't want to do anything else except stare at meters. They then blame the tank after they pull aggro because they are 15 and don't have proper outlets for their rage.

[Ingmar]

•As I said in the previous blog post, dps hate waiting. They love going full out all the time and don't want to do anything else except stare at meters. They then blame the tank after they pull aggro because they are 15 and don't have proper outlets for their rage.

While that is totally true, it is also true that the previous design was one that in some sense punished you for playing well, which is a little  . Definitely liking the change from both DPS and tanking perspectives. I don't really heal anymore but I imagine it won't change much for healers other than designated raid healers, and there's probably still enough random environmental damage to keep them busy.

[Sjofn]

lol all the firelands dailies bullshit is WHY I finally quit.

They kinda killed my will to live too, yeah.

[Evildrider]

I powered through those damn things every day just so I could be done with it.  It would have been better if they had upped the marks and just made it so you advanced to the next stage, instead of doing every previous stage as well.

[sinij]

GC is the problem, not threat. Still it nice to see him eat his words.

[caladein]

What?

Most of the points made in Threat Level Midnight have roots in earlier posts like Tanking With a Vengeance (scaling and throttling), Threat Needs to Matter (throttling and UI concerns), and The View from 10,000 Feet (offensive stats, possibly as defensive stats).

The real change I'm seeing over the past year is the assumption that tanking without threat would be dull, whereas now that's not seen as much of a concern.  Which seems reasonable considering we have separation now from ICC and its really boring fights for tanks.

[Paelos]

I think they need to realize that there should be a clear line between tanking in dungeons and tanking in raids.

One should involve some skill, and the other should just involve showing up and pointing at stuff.

[Ingmar]

What?

Most of the points made in Threat Level Midnight have roots in earlier posts like Tanking With a Vengeance (scaling and throttling), Threat Needs to Matter (throttling and UI concerns), and The View from 10,000 Feet (offensive stats, possibly as defensive stats).

The real change I'm seeing over the past year is the assumption that tanking without threat would be dull, whereas now that's not seen as much of a concern.  Which seems reasonable considering we have separation now from ICC and its really boring fights for tanks.

Shhh, you're just supposed to blame GC for everything while forgetting to give him any credit for any of the stuff he did that you liked. Like a football coach a year out from a championship. Fire the bum! 

[Sjofn]

If he was behind Cataclysm's paladin healing, HE CAN STAY FOREVER. 

[Paelos]

Quote from Tom Chilton in an IGN interview:

"I would say that the majority of our mindshare as a team goes toward our existing player base. How do we keep them entertained and how do we keep them enjoying World of Warcraft? I don't know if that's necessarily the right approach as time keeps going on. If you look at, if you look at the way the population breaks down, we're at a point in our history where there are more people that played World of Warcraft but no longer play World of Warcraft than currently play World of Warcraft. That was totally not true four or five years ago, and so in a way the demographic of the potential returning player becomes more and more important over time."

Ok, he's starting to get it. The question is by the time they fully get that they completely fucked up with this expansion, will it be 2013 when they can implement changes to reflect that change in focus?

[Kirth]

I doubt there is much they could do to get a majority of people back. Short of some drastic stuff.

[Paelos]

I doubt there is much they could do to get a majority of people back. Short of some drastic stuff.

I'd come back right now if they scrapped the guild stuff they added, and got rid of the "meaningful" stuff they put in.

And they fired Ghostcrawler and Kalgan. Bonus points for promising me houses within year end.

[DayDream]

I think the difference between "people who have quit WoW" and "people who have quit WoW and are never coming back for any reason" is probably significantly larger than Blizzard management wants it to be.  I hope for their sake they're aware there IS a difference between the two.

[caladein]

Quote from Tom Chilton in an IGN interview:

"I would say that the majority of our mindshare as a team goes toward our existing player base. How do we keep them entertained and how do we keep them enjoying World of Warcraft? I don't know if that's necessarily the right approach as time keeps going on. If you look at, if you look at the way the population breaks down, we're at a point in our history where there are more people that played World of Warcraft but no longer play World of Warcraft than currently play World of Warcraft. That was totally not true four or five years ago, and so in a way the demographic of the potential returning player becomes more and more important over time."

Ok, he's starting to get it. The question is by the time they fully get that they completely fucked up with this expansion, will it be 2013 when they can implement changes to reflect that change in focus?

I don't see how he's getting anything you might want him to.  The direct sub loss from Cataclysm can only be 10-20% of that 10m+ number of ex-WoW players (assume it's all in the West if you want, that's still a lot of other players).  Thinking more about "potential returning players" means a lot more than just burnouts and people who quit because of X, Y, or Z end-game reason.

The companion points to that are a) make the very early game more instructive and b) keep China happy and launch more new localized versions.

Edit: Also, you can take my pretty tabard and Mass Rez from my cold, dead hands.

[Paelos]

They can keep guild levels, just remove the means to get them other than "you're online and playing X"

Don't tie it to guild members in the groups. That was the dumbest thing they've ever done.

[Lakov_Sanite]

They can keep guild levels, just remove the means to get them other than "you're online and playing X"

Don't tie it to guild members in the groups. That was the dumbest thing they've ever done.

I dont think guild levels would be an issue at all if there was no weekly cap on guild rep, the cap was the dumb part.

[Lantyssa]

Starting at zero for a guild you had been with for years was pretty silly, too.  Or Ingmar's favorite... the guild he founded.

[Sjofn]

I think if it didn't have the stupid cap, it would make most of the other issues go away (although yes, it would've been nice if they had at least grandfathered people who were in a guild to honored or something when the stupid patch hit). But it DOES have the stupid cap. The stupid fucking cap. <fistshake>

[Lakov_Sanite]

Exactly, no cap and guild regulars would've been exalted within a month and not cared but when you start dragging it out, all the flaws become apparent.  It still wouldn't be a great system without a cap but at least it would be over quick enough to be a minor inconvenience.

[Ingmar]

Two things with guild rep would have made a difference: no weekly cap, and let lower level characters actually get a reasonable amount of rep per <action>.

Guild experience was mostly fine, but could really benefit from letting lower level characters have a much larger impact as well.

But in any case they're separate systems and we have a tendency to confuse them here I've noticed.

[Mattemeo]

The whole system was inherantly flawed and should have been scrapped before Cata's release. I find it mind-numbingly stupid that low level characters are pretty much told 'fuck you, you're not L85'. Guild rep should have encouraged alt-playing, not downright punished it.

[Rokal]

I'm surprised anyone cares about guild rep. It was just a gateway to a small number of pets, two mounts, and two heirloom pieces. Guild exp had a much larger impact, and gave you access to the buffs that actually mattered in the game (more exp, faster mount speed, extra skill ups from professions, double flask duration, increased rep gain, etc...)

[Ingmar]

The whole system was inherantly flawed and should have been scrapped before Cata's release. I find it mind-numbingly stupid that low level characters are pretty much told 'fuck you, you're not L85'. Guild rep should have encouraged alt-playing, not downright punished it.

You have a weird definition of the word "punished". In terms of feature access if you never level your guild up or level up your rep you have exactly what you had before Cataclysm; the new system is just extra rewards and a way to access them. The problem with it is one of details of the grind to the rewards, not with the system as a concept, and certainly nobody is being punished. Or slapped in the face.  

[Ingmar]

I'm surprised anyone cares about guild rep. It was just a gateway to a small number of pets, two mounts, and two heirloom pieces. Guild exp had a much larger impact, and gave you access to the buffs that actually mattered in the game (more exp, faster mount speed, extra skill ups from professions, double flask duration, increased rep gain, etc...)

Guild rep also controls whether you count towards certain guild achievements as well, some of which do have rewards associated with them. And your "two heirloom pieces" is two heirloom slots, or 9 total pieces.

There's also a certain amount of value in not having cognitive dissonance about your level of guild rep. 

[Merusk]

Yeah don't undercount the bonus of the 10% xp on the helm.  My hunter just flew through all of WOTLK by doing just a few quest hubs. (1st half of Borean, Star's Rest in Dragonblight, Ambersill & Worgen in Grizz, Hemet in Sholazar, then the Entry to Icecrown & unlocking Ebon Blade post)

If I'd gone ahead and kept to the yellow & orange quests I could have done it in even less time.   Cata content I hit 84 after doing Hyjal and Deepholm, then PVP'd and did early Twilight for the rest.

[Sjofn]

I usually Reject the +XP heirlooms, but I'm going to wear the shit out of the +XP hat once my mage gets into the Cataclysm levels. They're already that boring. :(

[Mattemeo]

You have a weird definition of the word "punished". In terms of feature access if you never level your guild up or level up your rep you have exactly what you had before Cataclysm; the new system is just extra rewards and a way to access them. The problem with it is one of details of the grind to the rewards, not with the system as a concept, and certainly nobody is being punished. Or slapped in the face.  

The rewards being so unattainable throughout the levelling life of alt number x is one part of the problem; the other part is the feeling that despite constant questing, that alt's contributions to the guild are meaningless or abitrary at best.

[apocrypha]

MMO Champion are putting up previews of t13 sets along with retrospectives showing all the previous tiers (e.g. here's the warrior one) for transmogrification purposes... and I have to admit that browsing them is giving me a faint re-sub twinge.

Only faint though.

[Sjofn]

You have a weird definition of the word "punished". In terms of feature access if you never level your guild up or level up your rep you have exactly what you had before Cataclysm; the new system is just extra rewards and a way to access them. The problem with it is one of details of the grind to the rewards, not with the system as a concept, and certainly nobody is being punished. Or slapped in the face.  

The rewards being so unattainable throughout the levelling life of alt number x is one part of the problem; the other part is the feeling that despite constant questing, that alt's contributions to the guild are meaningless or abitrary at best.

OK, I think the guild system is clumsy but ... those "rewards" are perfectly attainable during the leveling life of alt number x. No, you won't get your mitts on an armadillo pup at level 10 or anything, but it's really not bad as an alt. And yeah, when you're level 20, you're not doing a whole lot in gaining XP for the guild (although it does add up), but as you start to reach the "this is a serious alt" levels (60+ I would say) you might not be bringing in what a level 80 person is, but it's not terrible either.

Also once the guild hits the level cap, pretty much everyone is meaningless afterwards. 

[K9]

MMO Champion are putting up previews of t13 sets along with retrospectives showing all the previous tiers (e.g. here's the warrior one) for transmogrification purposes... and I have to admit that browsing them is giving me a faint re-sub twinge.

Only faint though.

It is reminding me that the quality of Tier design mostly peaked around T4-5 and then went downhill sharply after T8.