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Topic: Cracks starting to show? (Read 653980 times)
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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If I don't need my auth-code every time I log in, why do I need to keep using my password? All that typing is just damned inconvenient.
More seriously, I explained myself a couple posts ago. I want to get the same prompts whenever I log in. Up until yesterday, I didn't have to wait for the game to decide if it wanted my auth-code. So how is that more convenient? Seems like a wash to me. Maybe we could have a checkbox on our account page, to let us decide how we want to be inconvenienced.
You need one or the other. A password you can remember. An auth code you cannot. While it might make you feel better, it's another data field that would have to be tracked which adds nothing except satisfying your own comfort. Every data field they retain serves a purpose to them. Honestly, my politest response as an IT person to someone wanting to have to input more data than is necessary would be to roll my eyes. The PR guy can spin as convenience or whatever. Now not announcing the change was stupid, but there's no reason to have the option.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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adds nothing except satisfying your own comfort. If that's true, then the change was needless. It could have been left as is.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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The first time you do the Fade it's really really cool, but you never want to do it again. You've done it, it's figured out, and any subsequent playthroughs it's just an obstacle that wastes time in your way to the ultimate goal.
The fade was fun the first time you go through it?  I'm not sure I can take you seriously anymore, if I ever could.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Yeah, the Fade gets a bad rap due only to the fact that people had to do it so often they soured on it. The initial interaction with the Fade was for many people an interesting puzzle game of exploration.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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Yeah I liked it the first time as well. Puzzle stuff like that isn't bad inherently, it just lacks replay value.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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caladein
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3174
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Other parts of Dragon Age Origins have soured over time (like nearly every long combat sequence). The Fade was hateful from the off.
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"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." - Ingmar"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" - tgr
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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The first time you do the Fade it's really really cool, but you never want to do it again. You've done it, it's figured out, and any subsequent playthroughs it's just an obstacle that wastes time in your way to the ultimate goal.
The fade was fun the first time you go through it?  I'm not sure I can take you seriously anymore, if I ever could. The Fade was fun the first time, sort of annoying the second, and I downloaded Skip the Fade after the third. 
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God Save the Horn Players
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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The Fade was horse shit the first time around too.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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The biggest problems I had with the fade was that it 1) was ugly as hell, with bland colors and bad textures everywhere and 2) that it essentially had 'vehicle combat' for large sections, where you were forced to play as a rat or a skeleton, etc. The entire skill system for changing into another form and using abilities was awful. I thought the Fade section in DA2 was much better, which focused on the story and the surreal environment rather than mazes and puzzles. That's about the only nice thing I have to say for DA2 though. On topic: I want 30-45 mins of good, fairly difficult in the way of making you think and organize, content. I'll play usually 1.5 hours total, so I want some time when I log in to do some dailies, then run an instance, then do a bg, poke around on the ah, then log. If I can only log in, do an instance, log out....that isn't the game for me.
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The big message we got at release was, this game isn't for you casuals, we've changed our direction. That was the message I got anyway.
Most of the complaints from 'casuals' about Cata 5-mans at launch is that they were too difficult (or at least, too difficult if you didn't have an organized group), not that the dungeons were too long by design. Aside from maybe Deadmines, the dungeons were only long if you were wiping a lot. Saying that they abandoned casuals and then saying that you want difficult dungeons that reward organization is contradictory. Throne of Tides only takes more then 30 minutes if your group is bad or unorganized, and that's not because they nerfed the dungeon a bunch.
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Azuredream
Terracotta Army
Posts: 912
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Aside from maybe Deadmines
Change that maybe into a "definitely" please. Add SFK while you're at it.
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The Lord of the Land approaches..
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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The general complaint was "too time consuming". Too hard, too long, too whatever all fell under the category of "I don't enjoy spending so much time trying to complete this dungeon". Why you're in there for so long doesn't really matter when you come to resent being there.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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It absolutely does matter. If the dungeon is long because you are wiping, it means that future runs or runs where you perform and communicate well will be shorter. Long dungeons that are long because of a large map or excessive trash (Deadmines) will always be long.
Throne of Tides, Grim Batol, and Vortex Pinnacle are essentially what Dren was asking for. Relatively challenging dungeons that could be completed in a very short amount of time if you did well and were organized. Of course when they're new and everyone is learning they will take longer, that's an obvious outcome if the dungeon is challenging, regardless of how long it actually is.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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It absolutely does matter. If the dungeon is long because you are wiping, it means that future runs or runs where you perform and communicate well will be shorter. Long dungeons that are long because of a large map or excessive trash (Deadmines) will always be long.
Throne of Tides, Grim Batol, and Vortex Pinnacle are essentially what Dren was asking for. Relatively challenging dungeons that could be completed in a very short amount of time if you did well and were organized. Of course when they're new and everyone is learning they will take longer, that's an obvious outcome if the dungeon is challenging, regardless of how long it actually is.
If it's all going to end up being about points anyway, the less popular dungeons need to give more points based on their coming up in a random.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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Not a bad idea. People would groan less about Deadmines and SFK if they gave more points because they are longer. They already do give more JP since you get that per boss-kill, but most people are looking for the VP.
It would pose a few problems though. Hard to balance length vs. VP bonus, and if there was still a max of 7 weekly heroic runs, people might be inclined to drop groups until they get the dungeon that rewards the most points.
That said, it wouldn't make Deadmines any more fun to run, so I don't think it's the ideal solution.
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Azazel
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45 minutes to do a dungeon is still too long to me.
What's the queue time like these days?
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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45 minutes to do a dungeon is still too long to me.
What's the queue time like these days? For me on the Nightfall battlegroup: As tank: instant for both regular heroics and troll heroics As DPS: 15-25ish min for regular heroics (mostly 20ish), 30-45 min for troll heroics
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Azazel
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The ideal length for me is about 60 minutes. 30 minutes just feels a bit too fast, hardly a journey through some dangerous dungeon.
Deadmines actually would have been a fine dungeon at 1.5 hours if we weren't encouraged to keep re-running it.
If I have my RL friends around here and we're playing in a group, LAN-style, an hour, 90 minutes would be fine. On the internet with randoms? 30 minutes.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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Not a bad idea. People would groan less about Deadmines and SFK if they gave more points because they are longer. They already do give more JP since you get that per boss-kill, but most people are looking for the VP.
It would pose a few problems though. Hard to balance length vs. VP bonus, and if there was still a max of 7 weekly heroic runs, people might be inclined to drop groups until they get the dungeon that rewards the most points.
That said, it wouldn't make Deadmines any more fun to run, so I don't think it's the ideal solution.
Nothing made Occulus more fun to run either. They just kept nerfing the fuck out of it and adding shit to the end until people finally went, "GAWD, FINE!"
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Azazel
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What's going on here? How is there pushback against the opt-out?
Speaking as an IT guy it would be really annoying to be asked to implement some kind of optional, pointless extra step for people just so they can feel better about something they have no reason to actually fear. I imagine Blizzard's network team feels the same way, given IT people are all cranky bastards at heart. Speaking as someone who works in a small organisation that is a splinter of a huge organisation, we get required to do all kinds of pointless shit all of the time. We just do it and get on with our lives, since we like our jobs and the money that our jobs bring.
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luckton
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5947
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Nothing made Occulus more fun to run either. They just kept nerfing the fuck out of it and adding shit to the end until people finally went, "GAWD, FINE!"
Something I never understood about this complaint was how Bliz finally added a unique way of doing a dungeon using vehicle-based combat, and everyone hated doing it. And yet, Ulduar comes along and everyone's digging right into it. I guess all the haters didn't have an issue with the vehicle cockblock at the start of the raid?
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"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."
"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
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Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596
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Nothing made Occulus more fun to run either. They just kept nerfing the fuck out of it and adding shit to the end until people finally went, "GAWD, FINE!"
Something I never understood about this complaint was how Bliz finally added a unique way of doing a dungeon using vehicle-based combat, and everyone hated doing it. And yet, Ulduar comes along and everyone's digging right into it. I guess all the haters didn't have an issue with the vehicle cockblock at the start of the raid? People didn't like occulus because it didn't get easier the more you geared up (until much later when Blizz added that patch which maded vehicle stuff scale with gear). Of course, by the time the change did come in and the place being trivially easy and gave a lot of badges, people were already trained not to like it, and there wasn't changing the mind of many people. Likewise, people didn't mind the Ulduar vehicle battle at first beceause it let them get that tier of loot without needing the gear to actually do the fight.
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Rokal
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1652
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I didn't mind Occulus myself, but I didn't play Wrath especially long either. I appreciate that they tried to make the lvl 80 dungeons feel different from each other. Deadmines only feels distinct because it is longer than the rest of the 85 dungeons, but I'd rather see a standard length for dungeons and variation in places other than length. I think BRC is about the perfect length for a dungeon, personally, and it has distinct-enough fights that it feels pretty unique.
Edit: My suggestion to improve Deadmines would be to remove the entire section between the first boss and the second (the goblin). One less loaded trash hall, one less boss. I'd also probably cut out the mario part for the last boss, as it feels fairly time consuming when you had just gotten to the "end", and it's pretty easy for someone to screw up and die.
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 07:23:39 PM by Rokal »
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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Nothing made Occulus more fun to run either. They just kept nerfing the fuck out of it and adding shit to the end until people finally went, "GAWD, FINE!"
Something I never understood about this complaint was how Bliz finally added a unique way of doing a dungeon using vehicle-based combat, and everyone hated doing it. And yet, Ulduar comes along and everyone's digging right into it. I guess all the haters didn't have an issue with the vehicle cockblock at the start of the raid? Ulduar's vehicles did not fly. That seriously makes a huge difference, believe it or not. Some perfectly decent players will turn into utter morons the second the Z axis comes into play. It's why everyone fucking loathed Malygos too. Well. One of the reasons.
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God Save the Horn Players
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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It absolutely does matter. If the dungeon is long because you are wiping, it means that future runs or runs where you perform and communicate well will be shorter. Long dungeons that are long because of a large map or excessive trash (Deadmines) will always be long.
It doesn't matter because a cancelled account will never know that. Now it might matter to the devs for learning from their mistakes, but not to the players that are affected.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10138
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Al'Akir is Cata's Z-Axis hell fight; it's the same strategy as Malygos too, and the same wipes when people fail at it. But at least we get to keep our normal buttons.
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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The mechanics of the dragons in Occulus were vastly different from those of the guns in Ulduar as well. Ulduar was "Shoot this, use this shield, run from this, pickup this" All very simple.
Occulus was "Build up this stack, then use this. unless this is happening in which case you have to use this ability. UNLESS he's charging at you in which case fly in this direction" That the "healing" dragon killed itself and the "tanking" dragon wasn't actually supposed to be taking damage also fucked people up.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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It was a ridiculous gimmick, that's why people hated it.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711
Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!
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My suggestion to improve Deadmines would be Both Deadmines and SFK are also terrible for Taurens. The ceilings are way too low and I spend half my time in there with a screen full of cow head.
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"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
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Setanta
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1518
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screen full of cow head.
You watch bovine oral sex while playing WoW?
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"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
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apocrypha
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6711
Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!
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Would be more entertaining than Deadmines 
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"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
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caladein
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3174
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I can understand why a lot of players dislike vehicle fights, but it's the same reason I really enjoy them. I love that aspect of being given a new (albeit limited) class to figure out and then applying it to a boss fight.
It's like playing a new alt (or someone else's character) seriously for the first time, when it's the most fun because everything's new and there's tons of moments like "Ohhhhhh, I can use that here to do this...". Sure sometimes those moments turn into "Why does Disengage take off Swirling Winds?" but even that's an enjoyable moment of discovery and a reasonably funny way to get yourself killed. I know I'm in the minority in enjoying that sort of thing and the more raid-boss-like quests that replaced the vehicle stuff are definitely better for the game as a whole.
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"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." - Ingmar"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" - tgr
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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I like them too, I just don't like being at the mercy of 9 other people's inability to comprehend moving in 3 dimensions.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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And today in FUCK YOU CATA, I'M OUT! I bring you one of the weirder ones. Dude named Cavu RPs his own quitting, but it makes no sense.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Shrike
Terracotta Army
Posts: 939
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My suggestion to improve Deadmines would be Both Deadmines and SFK are also terrible for Taurens. The ceilings are way too low and I spend half my time in there with a screen full of cow head. I've come to actually kinda like the Deadmines. Not sure why, but I do. Less fail groups, I suppose. SFK does have issues of being rather claustrophobic, even as a draenei. Too tall, I guess. Normally, when we're on the stairs that wind around and around the battlements, I go blood elf with the orb of the Sin'dorei. Just makes it easier to see past shoulder-wide horns and 7' tall shaman in narrow hallways.
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Setanta
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1518
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My only problem with SFK and deadmines was as an Elemental Shaman - I had a trinket that on proc would send x-damage to the nearest enemies. The design of some instances, 2 of which being SFK and Deadmines meant that an overload on Chain Lightning for some reason would proc the trinket through walls, often pulling mobs from the end of the instance - which would then pull every other mob on their way through. I still have that trinket for lols 
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"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
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