Cracks starting to show?

[kildorn]

Priest healing is in a bad way right now.

Enh. As I understand it Holy is in a fine place, just a stupid place. It's great for heroics (assuming you have the magical spirit number and like rolling renew with chakra), and it's stupid for raids (here, sit and spam a heal we said you'd never spam again!)

But unless it got nerfed by around 60%, it should be Fine, just stupid.

[Ironwood]

Well, due to it being a Game, I'm going on the whole 'Is it Fun?' thing.

It's not fun.

[Selby]

I shouldn't be looking at doing ONE heroic with friends outside my guild as something that is going to probably take up all my available gaming time on a weeknight.

This is my main gripe.  I don't mind difficult or challenging content, but barely doing 1 heroic per night and having that eat into 2-3hrs of my available play?  That's not fun at all.  WotLK heroics were well tuned when they took 35-45 minutes and you were able to carry a bad player (the faceroll "let's get this done in 10-15m" tuned heroics at the end were a bit ridiculous I do agree).  Having to sit in a queue for 45m and then slog out a dungeon for another 1.5-2hrs and maybe not even finish the dungeon in the end?  That's not fun.  That's work and I get paid to work all day.  We did this back in vanilla when trying to gear out for raids with the Strat\Scholo\UBRS runs for 2 hours a night every night.  It sucked then, it sucks now.

[Setanta]

Part of what I like about the game is playing with several folks who are in little tiny friends and family or casual guilds.  Some of my best moments in Wrath were when I was helping little guilds like that and they got epic gear for their tank or healer, or they managed their first kill in ICC when they'd never even seen raid content in other expansions. They were so damned happy and excited that I became utterly convinced of the importance of making high-end content accessible to non-raiding guilds and more casual players.

^^THIS!!!!!

Seriously, the elitist bullshit of casual v's serious raider needs to be taken out behind the shed and shot. Fever's post needs to be jammed down ghostcrawler et al's throats until they get this. The game is a dead end at, not after heroics for a large majority of subscribers. The days of grind for "fun" are dead in the eyes of many players. Instead of cockblocking heroics for "casuals", maybe take the approach of "fun".  A guild/hardcore group is always going to smash through an heroic after the first few attempts and then move on to raids - so who cares if it's a "hardcore" challenge or not.

Fun = players happy = subs = more development of the game.

Elitism = FU majority of players = people go elsewhere and less cash injected into the game.

[caladein]

There's a big difference between having your "grind" be raw time spent or random chance at character creation and it being a test of player skill.  Namely, one of them isn't a grind. For a long time, WoW's "difficulty" was nearly all grind and it was bullshit.  Thankfully, the days of needing to farm endless materials, or having to level a whole new class to do the job you thought you could do but really can't, or needing to do every instance in order because you didn't start Day One are gone.

Being able to push a button, waiting a few minutes, and having a group spring fully formed from the Internet's brow, ready to tackle a slightly challenging dungeon is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Throwing loot, and achievements, and Goblin /dance on top and you're nearly guaranteed a good time.  Does it go horrifically wrong sometimes?  Sure, so you laugh it off, vote kick, and/or leave for another one yourself.  When it goes perfectly though (frequently because it's gone just wrong enough), it's glorious.  It's the best round of Left 4 Dead you ever had, except without needing to aim or be scared shitless.  All without the hassle of getting along with your guild leader or waiting for your third healer to get back from dropping off his girlfriend or replying to requests in Trade with statistics about your character that don't really matter.

I don't usually begrudge people their fun (which is all I'm doing, I don't think the points most of you are making are "wrong"), but the difficulty of Heroics is pretty much a zero-sum game, and I'd like my side to win.

[Paelos]

I get the feeling that Blizzard expected you to have epics made from all your other activities before you set foot in raids to get more epics. Perhaps a group with great skill could pull off successful raids with an average 346 ilvl, but I don't think an average skilled group would make it very far.

By the way, I think the only real skill in raiding is situational awareness and reaction time. Everything else is just window dressing. The higher you rank in those, the better you are as a player.

[SurfD]

I get the feeling that Blizzard expected you to have epics made from all your other activities before you set foot in raids to get more epics. Perhaps a group with great skill could pull off successful raids with an average 346 ilvl, but I don't think an average skilled group would make it very far.

Well, an averave of 346 or higher item level would sort of assume that at the very least you had managed to grab at least one of the usually 2 reputation epics that are good for your class / spec, and possibly a trinket from Tol Barad tokens as well.

And I would disagree.  A raid of people who are properly gemmed / enchanted and in at least pretty close to full 346 gear should have absolutely no problem doing at least 4-6 of the bosses in the new raids with only a bit of practice.   Yes, a bad combo on halfus can cockblock you out of an entire BT run, but if you can get halfus, V/T are relatively easy.  And Magmaw / Omnotron council are pretty easy fights once you have had half an hour or so to see the mechanics first hand.

And really, if you can kill 4 bosses at least, that is a decent start on helping you to gear up for the next week

[K9]

Well, due to it being a Game, I'm going on the whole 'Is it Fun?' thing.

It's not fun.

Are you playing Disc or Holy? Disc has been a confused directionless clusterfuck based on a couple of gimmicky playstyles for all of Cata so far. Holy on the other hand is pretty fun and dynamic.

[Soulflame]

Being able to push a button, waiting a few minutes, and having a group spring fully formed from the Internet's brow, ready to tackle a slightly challenging dungeon is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

One of my guildmates logged out the other night after 50 minutes in the queue.  He was not happy.

[caladein]

Being able to push a button, waiting a few minutes, and having a group spring fully formed from the Internet's brow, ready to tackle a slightly challenging dungeon is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

One of my guildmates logged out the other night after 50 minutes in the queue.  He was not happy.

My solo DPS queues in US Group D Horde-side have ranged between 25-35 minutes, but I haven't been playing in the dead of night much either.  I have run into some bugged queues for Battlegrounds though (e.g. in queue for 15 minutes for an average 2 minute wait), so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened to your guildmate, assuming your Group/Side's queue times aren't just 50% longer than mine.

[Shrike]

50 min is on the high end of what I've seen, but certainly not out of the realm of possibliity. I'm sitting in Stormwind as I type this cooling my hooves in a 45min estimated queue--and I'll probably get Stonecore, which I will drop like a napalm-soaked potatoe.

Hmmm, 20 min to go! Where to surf next...?

Edit: Popped at 37 min. Yay.

[Nebu]

How is this not reminiscent of the worst of EQ?  Instead of sitting at the entrance to an instance shouting "DRUID LFG" or "CAMP CHECK", you're now waiting in line for a chance to run a random heroic.  

I appreciate that the addition of the LFG tool has made it possible for more casual gamers to see and enjoy the dungeon content, but Blizzard is forcing people to wait in line to pull the slot machine.  People can't possibly tolerate this long, can they?  I'd hope that they would find some alternative schemes for advancement if they wish to hold onto a significant number of casual gamers.  If I could enjoy the content without having to wait in line for 30+ minutes to hop into the fray with people that have no ability to handle the fray, then I'd be back playing the game again. 

[Ironwood]

I get the feeling that Blizzard expected you to have epics made from all your other activities before you set foot in raids to get more epics. Perhaps a group with great skill could pull off successful raids with an average 346 ilvl, but I don't think an average skilled group would make it very far.

What ?

Explain this :  Surely 346 is heroically geared and, frankly, the RIGHT time to test your toe into the raids ?

[Lakov_Sanite]

How is this not reminiscent of the worst of EQ?  Instead of sitting at the entrance to an instance shouting "DRUID LFG" or "CAMP CHECK", you're now waiting in line for a chance to run a random heroic.  

I appreciate that the addition of the LFG tool has made it possible for more casual gamers to see and enjoy the dungeon content, but Blizzard is forcing people to wait in line to pull the slot machine.  People can't possibly tolerate this long, can they?  I'd hope that they would find some alternative schemes for advancement if they wish to hold onto a significant number of casual gamers.  If I could enjoy the content without having to wait in line for 30+ minutes to hop into the fray with people that have no ability to handle the fray, then I'd be back playing the game again. 

Much as I hate 45min waits as dps I will say you aren't just "waiting in line" you are in a queue but fully capable of doing other things in the meantime. I WILL say, they should allow you to queue for pvp and pve as well, or even queue up while in a battleground.

[K9]

How is this not reminiscent of the worst of EQ?  Instead of sitting at the entrance to an instance shouting "DRUID LFG" or "CAMP CHECK", you're now waiting in line for a chance to run a random heroic.  

I appreciate that the addition of the LFG tool has made it possible for more casual gamers to see and enjoy the dungeon content, but Blizzard is forcing people to wait in line to pull the slot machine.  People can't possibly tolerate this long, can they?  I'd hope that they would find some alternative schemes for advancement if they wish to hold onto a significant number of casual gamers.  If I could enjoy the content without having to wait in line for 30+ minutes to hop into the fray with people that have no ability to handle the fray, then I'd be back playing the game again. 

It is a virtual queue which doesn't hamstring you such that you cannot do anything but look for a group. It is also unprejudiced, so non-fotm classes and undergeared people don't get overlooked by default.

[Nebu]

It is a virtual queue which doesn't hamstring you such that you cannot do anything but look for a group. It is also unprejudiced, so non-fotm classes and undergeared people don't get overlooked by default.

Yes, you're correct.  

I apologize for the rant.  Just been thinking a lot about the direction of current games. 

[Paelos]

I get the feeling that Blizzard expected you to have epics made from all your other activities before you set foot in raids to get more epics. Perhaps a group with great skill could pull off successful raids with an average 346 ilvl, but I don't think an average skilled group would make it very far.

What ?

Explain this :  Surely 346 is heroically geared and, frankly, the RIGHT time to test your toe into the raids ?

I agree, it should be. Still, I'm not seeing it going well with a group of people doing just that. Are they morons? Maybe. But they were morons who were successful in the release content up through BC.

[Ingmar]

Never mind, I should read all the replies before piling on. 

[Lantyssa]

Sure you can do things, but do most players have four hours to devote to a fifty minute queue followed by a three hour dungeon?  I'd wager not.  EQ really is a good comparison, even if you're not standing at the dungeon entrance waiting your turn.

[koro]

Well, due to it being a Game, I'm going on the whole 'Is it Fun?' thing.

It's not fun.

Are you playing Disc or Holy? Disc has been a confused directionless clusterfuck based on a couple of gimmicky playstyles for all of Cata so far. Holy on the other hand is pretty fun and dynamic.

I would actually kind of flip that around a bit. My Disc Priest plays exactly as it did back in Wrath, only with a bit less bubbling and using Greater Heal instead of Flash Heal. Holy, on the other hand, I had no idea what the fuck to do with when I tried it out.

[Setanta]

here's a nice idea: let players queue for PvP and PvE at the same time. At least there'd be something to do.

Yeah I know - alfway through Stonecore the group bail to pvp :p

[K9]

You used to be able to do that with BGs, I don't know if you can still do it. People would queue for multiple BGs and then hop to the next one if the one they were in was going unfavourably.

[Merusk]

You can queue for 2 BGs now, but once you accept one it removes you from the queue entirely.  They removed it because of people bailing.  They removed the ability to queue for PvE & PvP at the same time for the same reason.

[Arrrgh]

You can queue for 2 BGs now, but once you accept one it removes you from the queue entirely.  They removed it because of people bailing.  They removed the ability to queue for PvE & PvP at the same time for the same reason.

They could let the DPS do AV/Isle at least while they wait in the instance queue. One DPS vanishing from the 40 people  in AV/Isle isn't a big deal. And you'll never lose your AV/Isle tank that way since tanks don't have queue time.

[Paelos]

Talked to one of my closer friends in the game today. We're both going to be trying out the Rift beta to see if it's worth playing for 3 months while they fix this mess.

[Shrike]

Sure you can do things, but do most players have four hours to devote to a fifty minute queue followed by a three hour dungeon?  I'd wager not.  EQ really is a good comparison, even if you're not standing at the dungeon entrance waiting your turn.

The problem isn't really the initial wait. It sucks, but it's not THAT big of a deal in and of itself. What really sucks is that wait, the inevitable extra waits as stupid assholes quit, get kicked, etc., then the repeated failures followed by more kickings, quittings, whatever. Then maybe a second wait in the queue after a full group self-distruct (about 33% chance of any one group, seemingly), at which point the whole ugly mess starts over again. That burns up three hours in a hurry.

The longer dungeons just give more time for the above to happen along the way. Personally, I only have about 3-4 hours a night before the dailys reset to get my VP. I'd rather not spend more than 2 fooling with this stuff, but it's about a 25% chance of me not getting my VP that day due to the way things are at the moment. Then there's the fact that due to all of this shit going on, almost all the PuG raids or quasi-coalition raid groups have competely disappeared in Cata, which leaves me with practically nothing to do even if I do get the friggin' daily done on time. The guild and I are about to part ways because of this as well. Developing major hate for the game.

[Rendakor]

PUG raids died to guild xp and 10/25m sharing a lockout, not because heroics suck.

[Paelos]

PUG raids died to guild xp and 10/25m sharing a lockout, not because heroics suck.

The guild changes are going to turn out to be a terrible idea. I know I've said it before, but I really don't think they are going to do what Blizzard wanted them to do.

Granted it hasn't caused massive formations of uber guilds like most of my hyperbole in the past, but it is causing people to hate their own guilds because they suck at playing their classes.

[Shrike]

The lockout is probably a major reason, but mostly it's because no one trusts or want to gamble on anyone outside their usual group of guildmates. A week of heroics shows you how bad it can be out there.

I don't even like pushing the LFD button anymore, but it's the ONLY way I have to gain VP at the moment--and I hate every second of it.

[Merusk]

Just stop playing.  No sense paying $15 a month for something causing you such headaches.

[caladein]

PUG raids died to guild xp and 10/25m sharing a lockout, not because heroics suck.

I think it's removing the 10m lockout much more than anything else.  Not only does it mean that people aren't running the "same" place twice per week but there's not an overgearable (say, from easy and early 25m bosses), less tightly tuned, version out there.

Which is a shame because the flexible lockouts actually make it a lot less risky to PUG.

[Paelos]

They are gettting rather abusive with their lockouts. I'm not in favor of that change at all. So what if we have two shots at the same loot?

[Hawkbit]

They are gettting rather abusive with their lockouts. I'm not in favor of that change at all. So what if we have two shots at the same loot?

This really has been a confusing issue.  I realize that they put lockouts on raids for pacing and retention, but it just feels antiquated.  If they put out enough good content, people will come back playing alts, too.  If the game is good, you rarely see people getting all they want and quitting for four months till the next tier releases. 

[Paelos]

I can understand no letting people reset a raid at will, but why can't it reset every 3 days? A week just seems punative, especially on simple raids like dragons or TB.

Also why are lockouts still in existence for the older content? Once it's no longer cutting edge of that patch or expansion, where's the harm in people farming it ad nasuem? I mean a weekly lockout on MC still?

[Rendakor]

The lockout is probably a major reason, but mostly it's because no one trusts or want to gamble on anyone outside their usual group of guildmates. A week of heroics shows you how bad it can be out there.

I don't even like pushing the LFD button anymore, but it's the ONLY way I have to gain VP at the moment--and I hate every second of it.

Honestly, this isn't it at all. I've done BH PUGs every week with no more than 1-2 wipes (healers, you have to cleanse; sorry sub-9k DPS, you're replaced) and frequently bring 1-3 PUGs to our regular guild raids and I haven't seen any total retards.

One big difference in raiding is simply expectations; you go into a heroic with whatever shit you've found leveling up or on the AH that gets you to the min. ilvl required. In a raid, however, everyone comes with food, flasks, fully gemmed/chanted, etc. with good communication.

Regarding lockouts, I'm honestly not sure why anything from previous expansions needs more than a 1 day lockout.