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Author Topic: Protection Paladins = Mana issues?  (Read 32126 times)
fuser
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Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 07:15:06 AM

Thing is your missing the initial damage by shield that will smack three targets on a good bounce for some nice aggro as its holy damage. You end up blowing %50 of your mana (that and cons) but I hardly ever loose any mobs on me unless I'm playing sloppy.

As for damage yeah its pure laziness or lack of understanding how to play. Dig into recount and look at their cycles and you will see stuff like hunters doing 98% autoshot or something else face palm worthy. I have been in many groups easily pulling 40% of overall damage done. In the 3.2 dungeons It's really easy for a pally glyphed with sense undead to do a lot of damage but 30-40% is outrageous. There's no way a tank should be doing that overall. When I've had some really good DPS group you should see 20-25% of the overall damage done at best.
Shrike
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Reply #36 on: August 17, 2010, 10:33:21 AM

So, do you guys tank with Devotion Aura or Retribution Aura? I've heard it recommended both ways...

Almost always in devotion aura. I'll use ret if I'm trying to gather up lots of low end mobs I can't actually target to annoy (zombies in CoS, mudballs in HoL, shardlings in HoS, etc.). Resistance aura if they're warranted (FoS). Protection PvP calls for ret, though.
Dren
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Reply #37 on: August 17, 2010, 10:40:21 AM

Protection PvP calls for ret, though.

I started pvp'ing in prot this week and have found it pretty fun even in limited pvp gear.  I got a nice high damage one hander mace lately and it really made a difference.  I never would have even thought of trying it until somebody mentioned it here.
Shrike
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Reply #38 on: August 17, 2010, 10:49:45 AM

Protection PvP calls for ret, though.

I started pvp'ing in prot this week and have found it pretty fun even in limited pvp gear.  I got a nice high damage one hander mace lately and it really made a difference.  I never would have even thought of trying it until somebody mentioned it here.

Oh, it's a blast. I stacked up shield block and got a nice, slow axe. It's surprising how hard you can hit people, especially clothies. There are a few talent/glyph changes necessary, but mostly you roll like you would as a PvE tank.

What always stuck with me was the fact that the other side would almost invariably assume you're holy (especially if you're running with a warrior or DK) and mob you. Most wouldn't figure out they'd made a terminal error in the victim selection process until they hit the GY. Fun times.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #39 on: August 17, 2010, 03:10:27 PM

Ok, I looked at Omen and the 2 Plate addons (Tidy and Threat I think they were called.)

What makes one better than the other? Also, I've heard curse addons sometimes have keyloggers in them?

What other addons are recommended?

I've seen recount and heard good things about gatherer and the auction one.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sheepherder
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Reply #40 on: August 17, 2010, 03:57:01 PM

You don't really need a threat addon, the base UI highlights people with threat and has a toggle to show percentages above your target.  It's not the greatest, because it doesn't show how far you are ahead as a tank, but it works if you're not trying to micromanage threat.  Personally I like clique as a paladin tank, because you can bind Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice, and Righteous Defense to clicks and just scroll over the guy with the red highlighted portrait and click to win as a tank.

Curse is legit.  People who buy advertisements there are sometimes not.  XSS is a serious problem for any WoW site that hosts advertisements from third parties.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #41 on: August 17, 2010, 04:43:29 PM

You don't really need a threat addon, the base UI highlights people with threat and has a toggle to show percentages above your target.  It's not the greatest, because it doesn't show how far you are ahead as a tank, but it works if you're not trying to micromanage threat.  Personally I like clique as a paladin tank, because you can bind Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice, and Righteous Defense to clicks and just scroll over the guy with the red highlighted portrait and click to win as a tank.

Curse is legit.  People who buy advertisements there are sometimes not.  XSS is a serious problem for any WoW site that hosts advertisements from third parties.

So you might bind, for example, Hand of Protection to Shift left click, then shift left click their portrait to cast it on them?

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sheepherder
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Reply #42 on: August 17, 2010, 07:44:07 PM

Effectively yes.  You don't even need a modifier button, but that takes a little more effort to sort out without disabling your ability to target people by clicking or use the dropdown menu.  It's a really fucking nifty mod, especially if you have a working 4+ button mouse, which I don't anymore.

Also, I might not respond to further queries.  If so, it's because I'm in the backwoods of Manitoba working in a place with limited phone, internet, television, and radio access. swamp poop
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 07:48:38 PM by Sheepherder »
Riggswolfe
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Reply #43 on: August 17, 2010, 08:43:51 PM

Well, I tanked 2 more BC instances today. One went flawless. We had a wipe in another because the dungeon guide neglected to mention that the mobs have a fear ability. 3 people ran 3 different ways and brought down 3 different mobs. Other than that it went smoothly.

Oh, and in both dungeons I topped total damage. I was at 39-40% consistently. I was 3rd in DPS but 1st in total damage done. Kind of odd really.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
apocrypha
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Reply #44 on: August 17, 2010, 11:21:22 PM

You don't *need* any addons, but I've found ThreatPlates to be a really, really useful one for tanking. It just changes the appearance of the mob nameplates depending on their level of threat to you.

In tanking mode (which it automatically activates if you're tanking) mobs which you have high threat on are small and green and as you start to lose threat on them they get bigger and yellow and then go bigger still and red when they agro onto someone else. Means you can easily see and target any mob in a pack that isn't hitting you.

Grid & Clique, or just Clique is very useful for player-targeted skills as Sheepherder said.

A lot of the BC instances are horrible for fears and mind controls. If you get Sethekk Halls tell the group to KILL THE CHARMING TOTEMS ASAP! I've killed most of the group before as tank when mc'd there  Ohhhhh, I see.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #45 on: August 17, 2010, 11:30:42 PM

You don't *need* any addons, but I've found ThreatPlates to be a really, really useful one for tanking. It just changes the appearance of the mob nameplates depending on their level of threat to you.

In tanking mode (which it automatically activates if you're tanking) mobs which you have high threat on are small and green and as you start to lose threat on them they get bigger and yellow and then go bigger still and red when they agro onto someone else. Means you can easily see and target any mob in a pack that isn't hitting you.

Grid & Clique, or just Clique is very useful for player-targeted skills as Sheepherder said.

A lot of the BC instances are horrible for fears and mind controls. If you get Sethekk Halls tell the group to KILL THE CHARMING TOTEMS ASAP! I've killed most of the group before as tank when mc'd there  Ohhhhh, I see.

I am blanking on which dungeon it was. It was one of the ones in the reservoir. It ends with the big boss fight right after rescuing the druid. I think it was the Mermaid-like Enchantresses or whatever they were called.

Threat plate sounds nice. Does it conflict with Omen? I liked Omen but noticed it only seemed to track what I was currently targetting.

Edit:

Well, I now have a few mods downloaded and installed:

Auctionator. I love this one!
Buffwatcher. It pops up somethnig telling me if my blessings, seals or righteous fury are off. Which is good because I sometimes get too wrapped up in the pull/tank rhythm and let my buffs lapse.
Clique. I haven't gotten much use out of this one yet but it's just because I haven't developed the "training".
Deadly Boss Mobs. I don't think I actually need this one.
GearScore. This one makes me feel dirty but I figure it may be needed eventually.
Omen Threat Meter. Good but somewhat limited since it only tracks the current mob I have targetted.
PallyPower. A Pally raid buff tool. It's alright, useless to me at the moment.
Recount. Again, I feel dirty but it's interesting to see the various stats. And I was shocked to be leading damage. I was doing 40%, a warrior in the group was doing roughly 30%. That means the two of us dang near took care of the dungeon ourselves! My wife's hunter was at around 20% with the last 10% split between the rogue and the healer.
Tidy/Threat plates. I like the idea of this one but haven't been able to test it in action yet.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 12:59:30 AM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Dren
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Reply #46 on: August 18, 2010, 07:18:52 AM

I just use Healbot.  It works well enough for tanking and I already use it for all my healing chars.  You bind the "hands" and other tricks you like to use to each mouse click.  I set up the bars to light up as soon as a person gets agro, not just when they get damaged.  That way, well before they even get hit by a MOB, I've taunted either directly or indirectly and/or put a hand on them.

Unless somebody is being stupid and targetting that one spellcaster 20 yards away from me nonstop, I very rarely lose anybody to loose agro. (Still talking about my pally tank.)
dd0029
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Reply #47 on: August 18, 2010, 07:19:58 AM

Quote
I am blanking on which dungeon it was. It was one of the ones in the reservoir. It ends with the big boss fight right after rescuing the druid. I think it was the Mermaid-like Enchantresses or whatever they were called.
That would be Underbog.
Quote
Omen Threat Meter. Good but somewhat limited since it only tracks the current mob I have targetted.
This was the way it worked a long, long time ago.  It now provides a more granular display of what the game already tracks.  It should show aggro on other mobs when you target them.
Quote
PallyPower. A Pally raid buff tool. It's alright, useless to me at the moment.
I use this in small groups all the time.  You can set the blessings and then just use a single hotkey to bless your group.
Quote
Recount. Again, I feel dirty but it's interesting to see the various stats. And I was shocked to be leading damage. I was doing 40%, a warrior in the group was doing roughly 30%. That means the two of us dang near took care of the dungeon ourselves! My wife's hunter was at around 20% with the last 10% split between the rogue and the healer.
This can be really handy.  It tracks tons of stuff.  You can see those by clicking on the tiny little arrow buttons on the window bar.  One thing I really like to use is the death tracker.  You can use it to figure out why someone dies.  Say, for example you are wondering why your tank died.  You can see that in the 20 seconds before he died all he got was a single renew tick in the way of healing.  The overhealing meters aren't as useful as they used to be.
Selby
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Reply #48 on: August 18, 2010, 04:52:20 PM

PallyPower. A Pally raid buff tool. It's alright, useless to me at the moment.
In my guild this is mandatory for pallies who want to raid.
Merusk
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Reply #49 on: August 18, 2010, 05:02:50 PM

It's one of the best addons I've ever downloaded and I don't raid with my pally.  As Dd there says, set shit up and it's one button to buff and it's just a quick glance to see "nope player xyz is red, their blessing is down." No need for a bar mod or multiple buttons for all the damn blessings.  Plus you can set it to buff yourself with RF, no more forgetting that after a wipe.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Shrike
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Reply #50 on: August 18, 2010, 08:59:49 PM

Except for the part where they get in their heads that certain classes require a particular buff that one of the subclasses might not want. Then it's like arguing with a rock about the 10 minute buff that's needed--but they still can't figure out why.

This happens about every week when that pallies insist on buffing all shaman with wisdom, which is almost completely useless for enhance. Then a ten minute debate occurs about why we want king's and might, and not friggin' wisdom. Every. Week. Because they don't want to be bothered with 10 minute buffs because of the addon.
Rendakor
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Reply #51 on: August 18, 2010, 09:46:17 PM

I'd rather the one enhance shaman go without might, than have all 3 pallies say "I'm doing all kings" and have only one pally buff per raid.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #52 on: August 18, 2010, 11:00:32 PM

No, what's worse is the Resto Druid saying "I don't need Might." every other rebuff when a) there's a Feral Druid in the raid that does and b) they have all the other Blessings as well.

More germanely though, it's actually really easy to set up individual normal blessings with PallyPower.  Getting other Paladins in your raid to actually follow their buff assignments is another matter.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
apocrypha
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Reply #53 on: August 18, 2010, 11:03:18 PM

GearScore. This one makes me feel dirty but I figure it may be needed eventually.

I felt shitty when I installed this too but it's actually incredibly useful. Firstly it can show a lot more than just a single GS number. If you use the /gs window you can see whether someone is vaguely appropriately geared for their role or not. Very hand for quickly spotting the DPS DK in Frost Presence tanking or the PvP warrior who's queued as tank, etc.

Secondly it shows the raid experience of a character, so if you're putting a raid together you can quickly see if that *character* has done XYZ raid or not. Of course this tells you nothing about the player.

It's also useful if you have a lot of alts that you're gearing up and you set it to show all iLvls in the tooltip. Then you can just mouseover yourself and see at a glance which slots still have that iLvl 176 green trinket from an Icecrown quest that you keep meaning to upgrade but have forgotten who's wearing it  awesome, for real

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Shrike
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Reply #54 on: August 18, 2010, 11:58:42 PM

Problem with gearscore is it's still non-representative of the character past average i-level. Anything else it does you can do yourself with a glance at inspect. Yet it's still treated as gospel and means very little past what you can see standing in front of you.

I don't accept it as anything even beginning to approach valid.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #55 on: August 19, 2010, 12:18:13 AM

GearScore. This one makes me feel dirty but I figure it may be needed eventually.

I felt shitty when I installed this too but it's actually incredibly useful. Firstly it can show a lot more than just a single GS number. If you use the /gs window you can see whether someone is vaguely appropriately geared for their role or not. Very hand for quickly spotting the DPS DK in Frost Presence tanking or the PvP warrior who's queued as tank, etc.

I doubt if I'll do much raiding, if any. That said, I do like how it rates my gear broken down into holy/ret/prot so I can get a better feel for "oh, so GS thinks this is better for retributiion? That makes sense..."

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Merusk
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Reply #56 on: August 19, 2010, 03:26:33 AM

Except for the part where they get in their heads that certain classes require a particular buff that one of the subclasses might not want. Then it's like arguing with a rock about the 10 minute buff that's needed--but they still can't figure out why.

This happens about every week when that pallies insist on buffing all shaman with wisdom, which is almost completely useless for enhance. Then a ten minute debate occurs about why we want king's and might, and not friggin' wisdom. Every. Week. Because they don't want to be bothered with 10 minute buffs because of the addon.

If they're arguing because of the addon then they need to learn the addon better.  You can set individual 10-min buffs for people for when you have different specs of the same class.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
apocrypha
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Reply #57 on: August 19, 2010, 03:46:43 AM

Problem with gearscore is it's still non-representative of the character past average i-level. Anything else it does you can do yourself with a glance at inspect. Yet it's still treated as gospel and means very little past what you can see standing in front of you.

I don't accept it as anything even beginning to approach valid.

Of course, which is why I said "Of course this tells you nothing about the player".

I think of GS like a kind of SatNav. It gives you an idea but if you rely on it totally without using your brain too you'll end up in a ditch.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
WoopeeTuralyon
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Reply #58 on: August 19, 2010, 06:11:08 AM

The instance in which you rescue the druid is actually Slave Pens.

GS will always annoy me. My GS is not low, but it's not very high.  5.4k or so. "NO NOO NO you need 5.5k GS for this ICC25 run! Anything less is trash and you are not worthy!" Ugh.
dd0029
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Reply #59 on: August 19, 2010, 06:44:05 AM

The instance in which you rescue the druid is actually Slave Pens.
You're right, but it could be Underbog.  The hunter boss, Swamplord Msomethingorother has a bear pet that is a druid you "rescue".  But there's that one giant pat right before the Stalker that makes it not "right after rescuing the druid."
Dren
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Reply #60 on: August 19, 2010, 07:05:35 AM

Problem with gearscore is it's still non-representative of the character past average i-level. Anything else it does you can do yourself with a glance at inspect. Yet it's still treated as gospel and means very little past what you can see standing in front of you.

I don't accept it as anything even beginning to approach valid.

Of course, which is why I said "Of course this tells you nothing about the player".

I think of GS like a kind of SatNav. It gives you an idea but if you rely on it totally without using your brain too you'll end up in a ditch.

It not only doesn't tell you about the player, it doesn't tell you about gems and enchantments.  It doesn't tell you if they have the "right" gear either.  For example, they may have a bunch of MP5 gear like a healer, but they really should have gotten Crit since they are trying to fill the DPS role.  Or, "Why does that Ret Pally have a bunch of Tank gear on ?"

GS just tells you the person has put a lot of time in getting high level gear.  Nothing more.  We agree.  I just think it is less useful than you indicate. ;)
Rendakor
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Reply #61 on: August 19, 2010, 09:36:09 AM

Dren, you're entirely wrong. If you /gs someone, it will show their GS for each spec; each will be represented as a percent of their real GS, as reduced by useless stats (with those useless stats and how much . So if they're wearing PVP gear, points will be deducted for resilience. If they're wearing Tank gear, points will be deducted for DPS gear. It will also clearly show if they're missing enchants/gems, and what slots. Here's a screenshot of my Prot pally's Retribution GS:
Please continue to hate on something you don't understand.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Shrike
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Reply #62 on: August 19, 2010, 09:58:51 AM

The fundamental problem is the GS maker had to basically assign values to all this stuff to come up with A Number. I don't accept his subjective calls on relative values of gems, enchants, whatthehellever. I won't go quite so far as to say he pulled these numbers out of his ass, but you have no idea where most of them came from.

You can make very strong arguments for gemming haste or AP as an enhancement shaman. It's a different philosophy on damage and both are valid (what they do best at is different, but both have worth). That's just one example.

Again, I don't accept the validity of this addon for anything more than average item level. It's a plague on WW, and I've mostly quit PuGs because of it, since arguing with morons isn't something I find fun. I don't know the BS, errrr, GS of my shaman, my DK, my warriors, or my paladins. Morever, I don't care. It doesn't mean that much. It won't tell you much either, other than offering an illusory security blanket of "Gee, he has T10 and is gemmed with...something vaguely appropriate."
Rendakor
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Reply #63 on: August 19, 2010, 10:20:03 AM

That's a valid criticism Shrike; it's not a perfect evaluation tool. Neither was wow-heroes when we used to use that. Nor is "Whats your dps on Patchwerk?" Nor "Link Achievements". But it is one EXTRA tool, and its reasonably comprehensive. You can tell with a single command how many kills that character has on a given raid boss, if they're in reasonably appropriate gear, fully gemmed and enchanted, hit capped, defense capped, etc. It takes a lot of the things you can see with an inspect, and condenses them so they're easier to read.

From the way you're talking, you've been kicked from PUGs for low GS; all I can say to that is tough luck. Forming PUGs is not easy, and if you've never lead a 25m PUG you simply don't get it. Try filling up an ICC25 or three and maybe you'll change your attitude.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Dren
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Reply #64 on: August 19, 2010, 10:58:45 AM



Please continue to hate on something you don't understand.

I understand it fella.  I have it.  I use it.  I don't hate it.  I use it for my own purposes to know what pieces help advance my characters in one form or another.

Can you /gs somebody that isn't within range of you?

You also ignored my point on gems and enchantments.

Having a bad day?  It will be ok.
Zetor
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Reply #65 on: August 19, 2010, 11:48:17 AM

GS is just a tool -- one that a lot of people misuse. It tells you the level of gear someone has, and that's it (edit: I don't raid, so boss kills etc don't really matter to me.. besides everyone just asks for achievements). Low gearscore != incompetence and high gearscore != competence; HOWEVER, low gearscore might = too undergeared to do the content (and no, this doesn't count for 95% of the wow populace).

Cue the H-HOR run where the 5500+ gs DK wanted to votekick my 4300 gs hunter because "ur not geared enough". Then I outdamaged him while also CCing a mob in every pull and doing single target damage instead of just explosive trap + volley. Ohhhhh, I see.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 11:50:51 AM by Zetor »

Rendakor
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Reply #66 on: August 19, 2010, 12:17:46 PM



Please continue to hate on something you don't understand.

I understand it fella.  I have it.  I use it.  I don't hate it.  I use it for my own purposes to know what pieces help advance my characters in one form or another.

Can you /gs somebody that isn't within range of you?

You also ignored my point on gems and enchantments.

Having a bad day?  It will be ok.
It will also clearly show if they're missing enchants/gems, and what slots.
Since you missed it the first time. And no, you can't /gs someone and get accurate information if they aren't near you.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Dren
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Reply #67 on: August 19, 2010, 01:04:18 PM

Sorry, missed that part.  Dock my pay 10%. 

As for range of /gs, that's what I thought.  So, you /gs somebody after you have invited them to the raid and summoned them to you?  Then you kick them when they don't meet up to your needs?

I'm asking because I've never been in that situation.  I guess I'm not hardcore enough.  I get invited and then we go fight Internet Dragons.
Ingmar
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Reply #68 on: August 19, 2010, 01:27:56 PM

People get kicked for showing up to a PUG raid with insufficient gear with or without gearscore, all GS does is make it faster to inspect someone. I guarantee you that even in the old days someone was manually inspecting everyone to make sure they weren't bringing in some guy in quest greens.

It is nothing to do with the GS addon and everything to do with players and how they approach the game.

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #69 on: August 19, 2010, 03:17:49 PM

On PallyPower

I guess I just need to figure out how to configure it. It sounds like it is quite powerful I just haven't sat down to figure out all the options.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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