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Author Topic: Protection Paladins = Mana issues?  (Read 32140 times)
SurfD
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Reply #70 on: August 19, 2010, 03:19:15 PM

The fundamental problem is the GS maker had to basically assign values to all this stuff to come up with A Number. I don't accept his subjective calls on relative values of gems, enchants, whatthehellever. I won't go quite so far as to say he pulled these numbers out of his ass, but you have no idea where most of them came from.

Not 100% sure, but i belive every "gear metric" addon / website (wow-heroes, gearscore, etc) have almost always used some kind of relitave calculations based primarily on the Item level + quality of the item in question.  That Item level 200 Purples are statistically X amount better then Item level 200 Blues is a fairly well doccumented fact, and i believe you can find the exact stat weights for every Stat and how they convert to item level and vice versa on a piece of gear pretty easily with a bit of google fu.

Originally i believe the Gear Score addon just totaled up the sum Item level of gear, and that was it.  Now, it does a little bit of checking to see if stats on gear match a spec, and for 90% of most class / spec combinations, it will probably be accurate to within 10% of whatever a decently informed raid leader would be looking for anyway.

For something like your enhance shaman example, I highly doubt gearscore in it's current form is even configured to care if he is gemming AP or Haste.  It probably just has a checklist of "These stats are completely wrong" or "these stats are acceptable" gems that it looks for, and thats about it.  Being able to asses a hunter and tell if he has 1 too many ArP gems socketed is beyond it's scope.  All it cares about is "is he wearing a caster ring, or an AP DPS ring", and thats likely as far as it takes it.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
SurfD
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Reply #71 on: August 19, 2010, 03:21:45 PM

On PallyPower

I guess I just need to figure out how to configure it. It sounds like it is quite powerful I just haven't sat down to figure out all the options.
The only thing I wish pally power did was give you an option to minimize the fucking thing when you dont need to see all it's little tabs. 

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
caladein
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Reply #72 on: August 19, 2010, 03:59:23 PM

A quick way to conceptualize GearScore is: 1.8618 * Σ Item Value  (Item Value is just Item Level, assuming full use of the budget, without the Slot and Quality Modifiers.)

When you combine it with sanity checks for spec, gem, and enchant appropriateness,, it's a reasonably useful number.  It also solves the Slot Modifier problem of taking a straight Average Item Level but while doing so it produces a number of others.

First, Ranged weapons have an outsized influence on performance relative to their Item Value for Hunters.  Secondly, that 1.8618 constant is just there to obfuscate.  Finally, and related to the previous point, it's presented dimensionlessly as "GearScore" instead of as Total Item Value which means it's only useful in comparison to other "Scores" from the same source.

I'd like to think that last part is what contributes to people asking for outlandish numbers to run even the most basic raid, but before that people were asking for equally outlandish and equally meaningless numbers so it's just people being lazy.

Even with the Slot Modifier problem, I still prefer Average Item Level (with sanity checks and other context, ala Elitist Group) because that's more grounded in my everyday playing experience.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Rendakor
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Reply #73 on: August 19, 2010, 05:39:11 PM

Sorry, missed that part.  Dock my pay 10%. 

As for range of /gs, that's what I thought.  So, you /gs somebody after you have invited them to the raid and summoned them to you?  Then you kick them when they don't meet up to your needs?

I'm asking because I've never been in that situation.  I guess I'm not hardcore enough.  I get invited and then we go fight Internet Dragons.
No. You tell them "Come to North Bank for gear check" or some such. Once they get there, you /gs them and either invite them or don't.

Gearscore DOES weight based on slot for most classes (I grant that the hunter weapon issue exists); chests are worth more GS than bracers, etc.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
ezrast
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Reply #74 on: August 19, 2010, 07:09:47 PM

I use it for my own purposes to know what pieces help advance my characters in one form or another.
This actually seems stranger to me than using it as a raiding requirement. When you're putting your raid together, you don't have time to do a super-deep analysis of every raid member's stuff, you just want to know people are above a certain baseline and not pursuing utterly useless stats. For gearing yourself, it's always better to just learn what stats are most useful for your class and gear for those. There are plenty of cases where a lower-ilvl (ergo lower GS) item is better for a particular class because of the stat distribution. If your stance is that you're not hardcore enough to bother learning the exact stat equivalencies for your class and just want to use GS instead, that's fine, but then you can't really fault raid leaders for doing the same thing.

Anyway, this argument was better when we had it in the bad groups thread.

edited for clarity
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 07:38:35 PM by ezrast »
Shrike
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Reply #75 on: August 19, 2010, 09:05:20 PM

That's a valid criticism Shrike; it's not a perfect evaluation tool. Neither was wow-heroes when we used to use that. Nor is "Whats your dps on Patchwerk?" Nor "Link Achievements". But it is one EXTRA tool, and its reasonably comprehensive. You can tell with a single command how many kills that character has on a given raid boss, if they're in reasonably appropriate gear, fully gemmed and enchanted, hit capped, defense capped, etc. It takes a lot of the things you can see with an inspect, and condenses them so they're easier to read.

From the way you're talking, you've been kicked from PUGs for low GS; all I can say to that is tough luck. Forming PUGs is not easy, and if you've never lead a 25m PUG you simply don't get it. Try filling up an ICC25 or three and maybe you'll change your attitude.

I do get it; I don't accept it. It's bullshit, pure and simple. I've never been kicked because of GS. Frankly, it never gets that far. My shaman is well over what most would consider (even in their most heated GS-driven fantasies) more than adequate for ICC25 hardmodes. The other toons; not so much. But I"ve pretty much given up dealing with the idiots that pimp this abomination for PuGs. I'm pretty happy with their performance in T9 and it's way too close to the expansion to worry about it all that much ingame.


Now come Cataclysm, I have serious concerns about how this shit is going to effect the game. If it's anything like it is now, I"m probably going to have to quit the guild I've been in for 5 years to find a night-time friendly one just to see average progression. Like I said: bullshit.
apocrypha
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Reply #76 on: August 19, 2010, 11:02:38 PM

Your problem is the people, not the tool.

If GS was banned or disabled then the exact same thing would happen as it does now, it's just that it would take longer as people tabbed out of wow to look you up on the Armory or wow-heroes or be.imba.hu or something.

People using the tool badly ("5.6k GS minimum no exceptions!") are the short-sighted idiots. I've noticed that it's use varies widely from server to server. On my server GS mins are almost *never* requested and people get laughed out of trade chat when they try to do so. Achievements, linked from mains if necessary, decent gear for the raid in question and not having a reputation as a ninja/dipshit/etc are the usual requirements, but I'm well aware that this isn't the case everywhere.

Oh, and when I form a pug for the weekly raid and it's something like Naxx I ask to be linked any unrelated achievement. Shave & A Haircut, Plenty of Pets, anything will do EXCEPT linking a Naxx achiev. It's a test of who's reading  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 11:05:05 PM by apocrypha »

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Rendakor
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Reply #77 on: August 20, 2010, 12:29:21 AM

Your problem is the people, not the tool.

If GS was banned or disabled then the exact same thing would happen as it does now, it's just that it would take longer as people tabbed out of wow to look you up on the Armory or wow-heroes or be.imba.hu or something.
This. GS doesn't bring anything new to the table, it just simplifies and consolidates existing tools. Even if you somehow got rid of everything except inspect, the process would be the same, it'd just take considerably longer because I need to check ~15 pieces of gear x 25 people for gems, chants, and spec-appropriate-ness.

If your guild won't bring your alts because "Their GS is too low" it's probably because they'd rather have your main. I've used that excuse a number of times, because it's hard to get progression when you're carrying 5 badly geared (T9) alts.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #78 on: August 20, 2010, 12:39:05 AM

People have always wanted to PUG people who overgear the encounter, GS just let's them have some pseudo-arbitrary number to shout about in Trade.  The only real solution to the "problem" is to take matchmaking / group creation out of the players' hands entirely ala the Dungeon Finder.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Rendakor
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Reply #79 on: August 20, 2010, 12:50:41 AM

I really don't understand this sentiment. Is 5k GS too high of a bar for ICC25? It's not about outgearing the content, it's about taking a group where even if you have a few people under performing for their gear level, you're not going to wipe constantly.

Say you "could" clear ICC25 (or even the first 4) with a full raid at 4.5k GS, if everyone was amazing at the game. If you then decided that 4.5k GS was the min you'd take for your PUGs, you'd wipe nonstop. You probably wouldn't even kill Marrowgar, because you're not going to get that level of player quality in a PUG. Hell, I'm lucky if i get 1-2 PUGs who are actually good at their class and the game. Most people are mediocre, with the ability to DPS, get out of fire, and little else. So, you need to raise the gear bar to compensate.

Now, an ICC25 PUG that only intends to clear the first 4 doesn't need 5.5k GS, nor does a ToC25 need 5k. But expecting to hit 80 in greens (even on an alt) and get a raid spot in any current-tier content is absurd. Even in early WotLK you ran heroics before getting into Naxx. The old check (before GS) was simply "Does he have on any blues?"

Also, imagining doing ICC using the Dungeon Finder makes me stabby.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #80 on: August 20, 2010, 02:25:10 AM

But expecting to hit 80 in greens (even on an alt) and get a raid spot in any current-tier content is absurd.

That is absurd, and also why gear resets exist, and also no one's arguing for that.

What's also absurd is that someone in Tier 9, the gear from the raid that directly precedes ICC, is considered "badly geared" for what I assume are non-Heroic fights.  If someone's in Tier 9 (mixed ToC-10/25 and Heroic ICC-5s) they're in the appropriate gear to go into ICC a year ago.  (Maybe they don't have the appropriate brain, but that's a different matter altogether.)  With an extra two tiers of gear via buffs, they're basically outgearing the place as-is.

On top of all that, ICC (and RS) isn't a place that you can really muscle down.  ICC's bosses, with a few exceptions, aren't like Algalon or Sartharion+3 who can just be rushed down with more DPS.  Those few hundred GS points of gear really doesn't matter if someone's still going to do abyssal DPS/healing on Festergut, or let themselves get Mind Controlled on Lana'thel, or sit in a Defile on Lich King.

That's not to say that more stats, either through gear proper or buffs, doesn't mean more kills, it's that the returns on "better gear" to boss kills are pretty damn tenuous when it comes to most players.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
WoopeeTuralyon
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Reply #81 on: August 20, 2010, 09:23:13 PM

Excellent point, that. T9 is obviously good enough for ICC because when ICC came out, people did it in...T9!  With no buff. PuGs *are*  different though, and T9 is basically handed to you now, so there's no way to know if someone in T9 is competent. And a dumbass in T10 would do better than a dumbass in T9, right? And better gear allows them to stand in fire a bit longer before dying awesome, for real
Rendakor
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Reply #82 on: August 20, 2010, 11:19:32 PM

"People" might've done ICC in T9 with no buff, but the average PUG back then was lucky to get the first 4 bosses, with wipes to everything but gunship on the way. If that's what you want, then go ahead and accept anyone in T9. But now with how easy it is to get frost badges and equivalent gear (crafted, VoA), the bar for entry can be higher to filter out people who haven't put any effort into gearing their character.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #83 on: August 21, 2010, 04:40:13 AM

What you're saying is that you're compensating (or at least insuring for the eventuality of) stupidity with gear exceeding that which would be needed under normal circumstances.  So, you're trying to outgear the place.

That's a perfectly valid tactic, but if you don't screen very aggressively for gear, you're not going to get significantly better players.  Better players is what a group needs to move from one half of ICC to the next.  Better gear, and even with the full 30% buff I'm not sure it's the case anymore, might get you past Festergut.  Slightly above that might get you to Rotface or Blood Prince Council, but for those two gear matters even less.  (At least that's my experience on US-Wildhammer-Horde, which is a backwater.)

Or, it may be the case that almost anyone trying to get into a pick-up ICC-25 is going to be a mouth-breather so one may as well make the ride to five/six kills as comfortable as possible.  I'm inclined to agree with that, and then my argument is only that gear, above a certain threshold and up to top-end gear, is only vaguely associated with success as a raider.

Tangentially, being in middling Tier 10 now is just a sign that the player "took the effort to farm Frost emblems for a while", which isn't any stronger an indicator of success than "took the effort to farm Triumph emblems for a while".

I'd like to think that previous raiding experience is a strong indicator, but if there's no entry level raid anymore, that's as impractical as requiring gear from the instance you want to run to run the instance.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
WoopeeTuralyon
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Reply #84 on: August 21, 2010, 09:41:47 AM

Well, that's why I said PuGs are different. And farming frost badges takes a lot more time than farming trimumph, obviously, and unless you have a ton of patience you'll want to use ICC to do it, which you won't be allowed to do if you're bad,  most likely, unless you have a good guild to carry you. You can easily and quickly gear yourself with triumph badges regardless of whether or not you're terrible, or you can get carried.

BTW, my resto gear will *never* drop in VoA. Not if I do it a thousand times.  swamp poop
Shrike
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Reply #85 on: August 21, 2010, 11:19:21 AM

Problem is, you can't outgear stupid.

Second problem is, GS doesn't tell you anything worthwhile, aside from average item level and, yeah, the owner of the character might (or might not) have spent some money on their gear after getting it. You have no clue whatsoever they know what they're doing until you actually try them out.

PuGs fail. So what? It's going to happen because of a) stupid, and b) these people aren't used to working together. In the past, I've seen ToC25 GDKP runs disolved and reformed because of stupid, despite whatever GS assholery was used to form the raid. When you got people that weren't window lickers, things started to move forward, regardless of whatever GS hotflashes the RL might have had. Even then, it wasn't anything like a guild sponsored raid, but progress would be made. Actually, the best PuGs I've run into were partial guild raids, with some PuGs added. Our guild does (or did) this frequently during doldrums like now and it generally worked out OK, and usually resulted in a few recruits that could walk and chew gum at the same time without bodily injury. On the other hand, these never made progress like a full up guild run. Never.


Rendakor
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Reply #86 on: August 21, 2010, 11:36:47 AM

Well, that's why I said PuGs are different. And farming frost badges takes a lot more time than farming trimumph, obviously, and unless you have a ton of patience you'll want to use ICC to do it, which you won't be allowed to do if you're bad,  most likely, unless you have a good guild to carry you. You can easily and quickly gear yourself with triumph badges regardless of whether or not you're terrible, or you can get carried.
This.

And fair point caladein. I'll argue that better gear will get you better performance on PP and BQL as well; you'll have better dps switching targets on the former, and higher dps in general on the latter. Higher ilvl also comes with more survivability in the form of higher Sta, which gives the baddies a larger margin of stand-in-fire on pretty much every fight in zone.

Shrike: first off, GS does tell you how much experience a given character has: from 0 to 5+ kills on every boss in every raid zone. Now, that doesn't take into account alts, but it's more than average item level. Secondly, if you don't use GS (or wow-heroes, or armory, or inspect, or some other gear-based evaluation method), how do you decide who to take on your raids? If you just take the first 24 spec appropriate people that send you tells, you're in for a wipefest, period. Finally, while you can't outgear stupid, you CAN undergear content, even with 30%. Someone in blues is not ready for ICC, period. Even someone in Naxx/Ulduar level epics (say, an old raider who just resubbed) isn't.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
WoopeeTuralyon
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Reply #87 on: August 21, 2010, 11:46:25 AM

An old raider would likely not be a mouth-breather though. And unless there's an enrage timer that's very strict, a self-aware, less-geared dps would probably be more useful than a more-geared retard. The raider would likely only have to be told once to never stand in Defile... it all really comes down to the person's skill level, which cannot be judged by any add-on. People can be carried to kills or they could do the carrying, and you would never know until you saw the recount after the run started.
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #88 on: August 21, 2010, 12:00:55 PM

"Stop being lazy and take me, even though my gear isn't as good as the 700 people lined up behind me and you have no other real way of telling us apart!"

I hate sticking up for gear-elitist raiders, but people ask for the numbers they ask for because they can get them.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
SurfD
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Reply #89 on: August 21, 2010, 12:26:05 PM

Finally, while you can't outgear stupid, you CAN undergear content, even with 30%. Someone in blues is not ready for ICC, period. Even someone in Naxx/Ulduar level epics (say, an old raider who just resubbed) isn't.

As the exception (with a very big dose of "not your usual raider") to this general rule of thumb, <Undergeared> disagrees with you.

Experimental Guild project on an EU server, who has cleared approximately 90% of all Wrath 10 man riad content (including 12/14 Ulduar 10, and 8/12 ICC 10 (many pre 30% buff)) in nothing but Ilevel 200 Dungeon Blues.  The only exceptions they allow to their "No Epics or things derived from epics" rule is they allow the use of Epic Profession based perks (jc's can use their Dragons Eye Gems / Engineers get their Epic Helms), and the use of Epic Leg enchants.  Other then that, No epics PERIOD, and enchants that would require an Abyss crystal.

The margin for "undeargearing" stuff, even with the 30% buff, is MUCH MUCH lower then people think.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Rendakor
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Reply #90 on: August 21, 2010, 12:32:31 PM

While that is impressive, a decent ICC10 PUG on Andorhal goes at least 10/12.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Zetor
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Reply #91 on: August 21, 2010, 12:36:37 PM

I linked that undergeared thing like 10 posts above, geez! The guy leading it is a Hungarian fyi. It's how we roll.  why so serious?

Like I said back then, the 'undergeared project' is also not representative of the average WOW populace at all, and it's hardly a pug -- it's a very well disciplined group of hardcore raiders.


edit: he also has a second project called 'the pug' which is basically an ad-hoc raid guild (anyone can start a pug at any time)... no gear restrictions there. Those runs are fairly efficient as well.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 12:39:31 PM by Zetor »

Rendakor
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Reply #92 on: August 21, 2010, 12:38:51 PM

Sorry Zetor, missed the link when you posted it.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #93 on: August 21, 2010, 10:17:47 PM

"Stop being lazy and take me, even though my gear isn't as good as the 700 people lined up behind me and you have no other real way of telling us apart!"

I hate sticking up for gear-elitist raiders, but people ask for the numbers they ask for because they can get them.

I totally get that, which is why at the beginning of this derail I said the only way to fix the "problem" is to remove players from the matchmaking process.  The system as it stands now will always lead to the only people who can get a group for a place are the people that have already run it (at least in part).

With LFD, characters who would have never gotten into a pick-up Heroic without a guild or friends a year ago are able to run them successfully on a consistent basis.  Part of that is that the places have been nerfed into the ground and you're frequently grouped with people who dramatically overgear the instance sure, but the same could be said about ICC to a lesser degree.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Rendakor
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Reply #94 on: August 21, 2010, 10:23:26 PM

There are numerous reasons why a /lfd for raids wouldn't work, particularly in ICC.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
caladein
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Reply #95 on: August 21, 2010, 10:33:38 PM

I agree, the current suite of raids and LFD tools just aren't compatible with each other.

With a move to shorter raids, more tank homogenization, more buff homogenization, a (hopefully) balanced healer landscape, and the changes to lockouts; I don't see how a successful Looking for Raid system is an impossibility.

If anything in the above list falls through though, it'd just be Meeting Stones, Take 2: Everyone's Standing in Fire.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Rendakor
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Reply #96 on: August 21, 2010, 10:48:09 PM

Even if they fix everything as you've said, there's still the problem where some dickhead bails on the first boss because it didn't drop his dagger or whatever. No one is going to want to get saved after bosses are down, when they could wait for a fresh run. Tanks and healers would be particularly reluctant, since they'll likely have the shortest queues, while also being the most likely to bail.

Furthermore, how do you handle loot? There are already assholes in heroics that like to hit need on everything. Even if the roll system actually enforced main spec only to hit Need (by checking your current spec), there would still be plenty of room for shenanigans.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
apocrypha
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Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #97 on: August 21, 2010, 11:47:45 PM

Arguing about GearScore is so fucking pointless it hurts. It's not going away. Ever. Get used to it.

These arguments are had every single week in multiple threads on the WoW forums and the exact same things are said over and over again. The arguments that have been made here are identical to the arguments for and against made everywhere else (if somewhat more articulately expressed here), nothing new has been said about GS for a long time.

Every since /inspect has existed people's gear has been part of raid (and guild) leader's decision making process. There is an extremely simple answer to "I don't like using GS to decide who gets into pug raids": run your own. You lead it, you choose who comes. Someone else leading it, they choose using whatever criteria they want. End of story.


"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Simond
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Reply #98 on: August 22, 2010, 03:40:48 AM

Gearscore is a blunt implement, which means that if you're smart it can be tricked relatively easily - either by faker mods or just by putting together a "gearscore suit" which you then swap out for your real gear once in the raid.

Plus the first thing to do for a PUG raid with "Must have GS over 9000!!!" is to go check the Armoury of the raid leader.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Selby
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Reply #99 on: August 22, 2010, 09:46:37 AM

Plus the first thing to do for a PUG raid with "Must have GS over 9000!!!" is to go check the Armoury of the raid leader.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Yeah this one guy who constantly has a 4600-4800GS is *always* starting raids on my server and insisting that everyone MUST have a 5500GS to come.  People ridicule him the entire time he spams it, I am not sure he ever makes a complete raid.  Same thing with the level 70 guy doing "For The Horde" and insisting only 77+ people can come...
WoopeeTuralyon
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Reply #100 on: August 22, 2010, 10:32:33 AM

Plus the first thing to do for a PUG raid with "Must have GS over 9000!!!" is to go check the Armoury of the raid leader.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Yeah this one guy who constantly has a 4600-4800GS is *always* starting raids on my server and insisting that everyone MUST have a 5500GS to come.  People ridicule him the entire time he spams it, I am not sure he ever makes a complete raid.  Same thing with the level 70 guy doing "For The Horde" and insisting only 77+ people can come...

LOL those guys are the best! "LFM Sunwell, 80's only" says the level 70. They're so good they can fail to even come close to meeting their own requirements!
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