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Author Topic: Bioshock: Infinite  (Read 82002 times)
Venkman
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Reply #280 on: April 11, 2013, 07:26:53 PM

Ok so this all makes sense. But racism as a byproduct of a period piece does not justify the period chosen which happens to include racism.

This ties into Ingmar's original response above:

Because Americans have shitty history educations, generally speaking, especially when it comes to post-Reconstruction times, and we need to be slapped in the face with our own heritage once in a while to remind us. It's not a bad thing.

Why? Not "why do we have shitty history education". Everybody has shitty history education. Pre-college education is citizen indoctrination. College is when you start to ask questions. But by then the point is to become better prepared to enter the workforce to make incremental change, not charge in with piss and vinegar that upsets the slow pace of change.

No, I mean "why" in the context of "why chose a period wherein racism needs to be a part in order to connote accuracy"? This is my personal blindspot becausee as I mentioned, I've never played Bioshock 1 so only know from the coverage that it was a critique of Ayn Rand and such.

So on the one hand, sure, maybe core to the Bioshock brand is sociopolitical commentary.

But on the other, there was nothing about the underlying premise of Infinite that really required it be a period piece that included contemporary social norms of great dissonance with modern permissable thinking. You've got spacetime tears pulling things in from the multiverse for chrissakes. Putting it in a time that requires racism to be accurate feels like little more than window dressing to drive shock value that generates controversy which ultimately drives PR.

This is a bit unfair to Irrational because I really did like the game, and to a degree I'd give it high marks and wouldn't even consider this sub-topic a ding against such. It's really more about the idea of video games as social commentary in the first place. We've got an industry of retrograde mysognists objectifying women and continuing to capitalize on modern stereotypes. This is the best time to be re-introducing historical ones we'd like to believe we've outgrown?

Sorry to derail. I'm just bothered by the idea of racism as a PR hook, even if it's package as "hey this is a history lesson for all you 36+ers who slept through 11th grade".
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Reply #281 on: April 11, 2013, 07:31:24 PM

Ok so this all makes sense. But racism as a byproduct of a period piece does not justify the period chosen which happens to include racism.

This ties into Ingmar's original response above:

Because Americans have shitty history educations, generally speaking, especially when it comes to post-Reconstruction times, and we need to be slapped in the face with our own heritage once in a while to remind us. It's not a bad thing.
Everybody has shitty history education.

Really now.

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Venkman
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Reply #282 on: April 11, 2013, 07:52:14 PM

What part? The "everybody"? I could strengthen that by saying "everybody who didn't then do post-high school history", but I kinda implied that smiley

Damn, I also meant to ask: is this worth playing through from scratch again? Like, ME and Witcher I would because at key points a different decision may be interesting. But here the only reason i could think to play through it again would for some esoteric achievements I couldn't care less about.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 07:56:18 PM by Darniaq »
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Reply #283 on: April 11, 2013, 08:00:48 PM

Sorry to derail. I'm just bothered by the idea of racism as a PR hook, even if it's package as "hey this is a history lesson for all you 36+ers who slept through 11th grade".

Not to continue the derail, but I think there's a much better case for the racist dudes in the world building being an artistic choice rather than a "PR hook".

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Margalis
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Reply #284 on: April 11, 2013, 08:01:27 PM

Ok so this all makes sense. But racism as a byproduct of a period piece does not justify the period chosen which happens to include racism.
...
No, I mean "why" in the context of "why chose a period wherein racism needs to be a part in order to connote accuracy"?

I get what you are saying but your formulation is a little weird.

Most time periods include racism or something akin to it. You'd be hard-pressed to write historical fiction about the US without setting it in an overtly racist time period.

Now that said I don't think accuracy is a goal of Infinite, and you can find critiques specifically about the lack of accuracy in the way it portrays things like race relations. The world of Infinite is intentionally a sort of Greatest Hits version. It's one thing to include racism because racism was a thing. It's another to write a story about a floating sky city run by white supremacists who worship John Wilkes Booth or some shit. When you do that you seem to indicate that you have something to say beyond simply communicating the stark reality of the time.

I think it's fair to say that compared to Bioshock 1 Infinite is overstuffed and less coherent.

Quote from: Ingmar
Not to continue the derail, but I think there's a much better case for the racist dudes in the world building being an artistic choice rather than a "PR hook".

For Bioshock bold artistic choices are the PR hook. The PR for Bioshock is largely centered around how the series has big ideas and how Ken Levine is some sort of brave mad scientist. Not that I think someone said "let's include racism so we can do PR about it" but tackling weighty themes is the Shock schtick. It didn't have to be racism and religion but it did have to be something "serious" and not just sci-fi stuff.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 08:24:03 PM by Margalis »

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Reply #285 on: April 11, 2013, 10:34:42 PM

Well yes, there's a difference between casually referencing something and actively commenting on it. In Bioshock, the trappings of the 1950's were just scenery. In Infinite, the trappings of Gilded Age America are just scenery. Each is so loaded with symbols that it feels like it ought to mean something, but neither has the thematic or storytelling chops to actually attempt a message or a point.  "It's bad, mmkay?" is just cartoon cynicism.

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Reply #286 on: April 12, 2013, 12:44:26 AM

It, like other forms of ignorance, really shouldn't be portrayed as something to deal with by deadly violence.

I think Django would like a word. :)
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Reply #287 on: April 12, 2013, 06:17:33 AM

Even the staunchest conservative will admit that yeah, in the past people were racist. This is a reminder on the level of that water is wet.
While insisting it doesn't exist now.  Some people are a bit obtuse and need it thrown in their face to get it.

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Reply #288 on: April 12, 2013, 07:03:18 AM

i hear blacks can ride horses now in the US?

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Reply #289 on: April 12, 2013, 08:30:39 AM

But infinite isn't really a commentary on racism, it's about why dimensional fuckery is bad, with added racism.  If you actually dealt with it or it was the reason for the dimensional fuckery or vice-versa it would be a bit better.  As it stands, it's more "Look at how controversial we are!"

Having serious themes and exploring them are two totally different things.

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Reply #290 on: April 12, 2013, 03:51:54 PM

The racism seemed to have no point other than to demonize the inhabitants of the city.  It would've been more interesting if they'd been a non-mustache-twirling level of racist and believing that they were progressive not-racist people.  Because sure, they make the African and Irish people scrub the toilets and live in the cloud slums, but they aren't going and lynching anyone or burning crosses, and sometimes they'll even talk to a black person.  That's super swell of them, right?  Then halfway through the game you find out that they're putting minority people through involuntary cyborging (also making the game finally sorta bio-related if we're having 'Bioshock' as the name) and chalking it up as being 'for their own good' and 'improving their job opportunities in life'.

Suddenly you're confronted with the true stripes of what had previously seemed a relatively benign racism, when people who still have a smile on their face believe that other people are unfit to make their own way in life without the 'help' of the ruling class.  People who will tell you that it's okay to chop off a black man's limbs and replace them with steam-powered ones whether he wants them or not, because his skull shape proves through science that he can't plan more than a week into the future.  That would be WAY more creepy than everyone whipping out KKK hoods all of a sudden.
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Reply #291 on: April 12, 2013, 04:14:53 PM

Yea that's basically where I was headed, I just couldn't figure out how to say it well.

I'm cool with games including controversial concepts. But include the controversial concept, don't just treat it as some window dressing for the purposes of inciting sideshow conversation.

Having said that, I don't think that was Infinite's intent. I didn't really feel it as racism as much as plight of the common man, the unacknowledged true class of people who make things work. That's as old as one group declaring superiority over another.

One thing I don't feel is answered is exactly what time period is Comstock from originally and where did the quantum/multiverse stuff come from? I could see that Comstock was trying to recreate his idealized view of youth, and place himself above reproach. All his sensibilities are from that time, and faithfully recreating a city for that time does include that cultural superiority that subjugates the other classes. And the attack on NYC looks like it was also from that same time period (at least 1930s).

But then: quantum stuff. The brother and sister, future scientists who get lost in time and find Comstock Prime? Descendants?

Also: is Bioshock 1 worth playing or should I finish these ME3 DLCs?
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Reply #292 on: April 12, 2013, 08:03:12 PM

Bioshock is very worth playing.  Bioshock 2 is good but can be skipped without missing anything earth-shattering.
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Reply #293 on: April 12, 2013, 09:28:25 PM

The racism angle of Bioshock: Infinite is undermined by


I liked Bioshock 1 a lot, but you've probably had the twists ruined by now. However it works better than B:I because Rapture has an atmosphere to it that Columbia lacks.

I also think Bioshock 2 doesn't get the respect it deserves as it has some exceptional set pieces, even if the main villain isn't as strong. Plus Minerva's Den is excellent as DLC.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 10:23:26 PM by UnSub »

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Reply #294 on: April 16, 2013, 05:06:18 PM


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Reply #295 on: April 17, 2013, 07:06:17 PM

... I don't get it. John Constantine in Colombia?

I wrote over 4000 words on my blog that basically says how disappointing Bioshock: Infinite is and how bewildered I am that out of over 100 professional reviews on Metacritic there is only one review that gives this game less than 80% (and that's Tom Chick's review). As a title it is pretty and soulless, with an ending that doesn't hold up to an iota of thought.

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Reply #296 on: April 17, 2013, 11:37:22 PM


I wrote over 4000 words on my blog that basically says how disappointing Bioshock: Infinite is and how bewildered I am that out of over 100 professional reviews on Metacritic there is only one review that gives this game less than 80% (and that's Tom Chick's review). As a title it is pretty and soulless, with an ending that doesn't hold up to an iota of thought.

Looking forward to reading this after I start and finish it.
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Reply #297 on: April 17, 2013, 11:39:20 PM

... I don't get it. John Constantine in Colombia?

I wrote over 4000 words on my blog that basically says how disappointing Bioshock: Infinite is and how bewildered I am that out of over 100 professional reviews on Metacritic there is only one review that gives this game less than 80% (and that's Tom Chick's review). As a title it is pretty and soulless, with an ending that doesn't hold up to an iota of thought.

Didn't play the game, but well done on cutting the veggie and tossing the salad plot.
I really hate games that tries to present a story but not really enhancing it with the gameplay. Instead, both seems to be very unrelated to each other and the player just have to accept that his gameplay matters not when it comes to the plot resolution.

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Venkman
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Reply #298 on: April 18, 2013, 08:54:10 AM

Yea that was basically the vibe I got while playing. Great looking game, interesting story, workable action shooter, they all had very little to do with each other at the time. But in retrospect, the ending kinda establshed:

Margalis
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Reply #299 on: April 18, 2013, 05:10:24 PM

I may be repeating myself from earlier comments but this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately: most AAA games these days operate on the premise that the gameplay is essentially non-canonical. The "story" of the game is just the audio logs, cutscenes and locations you visit, but very little of the in-game action.

Quote
I wrote over 4000 words on my blog that basically says how disappointing Bioshock: Infinite is and how bewildered I am that out of over 100 professional reviews on Metacritic there is only one review that gives this game less than 80% (and that's Tom Chick's review).

Game reviews strive for a sort of faux-objectivity. The game is pretty, on the surface appears intellectually at least somewhat ambitious and doesn't suffer from major technical problems. So it's going to get 80+ from every outlet.

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Reply #300 on: April 19, 2013, 05:55:09 AM

So, I bought this like three weeks ago. I played for a couple hours and go to the point where

.

At that point I quit in disgust and haven't gone back yet. Maybe I'm just getting old and jaded, but it seems to be a pretty stock corridor shooter with very nice art and a teenage-intellectual veneer tossed on top. Am I missing something? Should I really go back and finish?

How many more fucking hours do I have to slog through?
Venkman
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Reply #301 on: April 19, 2013, 05:57:22 AM

How many more fucking hours do I have to slog through?

None, unless you're a game reviewer getting paid by the word and therefore must slog through it.

Or:

Probably another 8 from that point, or maybe 5 if you speedrun?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
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Reply #302 on: April 19, 2013, 06:20:23 AM

Badly phrased. "How many hours remain, if I were to slog through?" would be closer. But...

Probably another 8 from that point, or maybe 5 if you speedrun?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Fffffuuuuuuck that.
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Reply #303 on: April 19, 2013, 07:05:24 AM

What? No. Maybe half that. 2-3 hours. Faster if you are playing on easy. And the last half hour is basically exposition anyway. You're in the last third of the game, for sure. 8 hours? The entire game can't be more than 10.

I'd just finish it, I liked the last third. Even though the game took a sharp right turn. If you think it's teenage-intellectual now, you haven't seen anything yet. Just wait.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 07:08:50 AM by bhodi »
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Reply #304 on: April 19, 2013, 08:08:50 AM

So, I bought this like three weeks ago. I played for a couple hours and go to the point where

.

Do you mean


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Reply #305 on: April 19, 2013, 08:38:53 AM

Do you mean


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. As soon as I saw that pop up I was like "no, fuck you for using the oldest video game trick in the book", save (lolno, I mean checkpoint), quit. If I wanted to play shitty RPGs where every single quest is interrupted by "well, I'll help you BUT FIRST YOU MUST TRUNCULATE THE SIX MACDOOGLES" I'd go play one of those.

I don't even know what I expected though. I gotta stop buying shooters.
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Reply #306 on: April 19, 2013, 08:46:22 AM

I had the same though when I got there, but once I played it it really didn't bug me as much, as they use the whole run around to present more of the plot line and story.

The game is certainly an on rails shooter, but I really liked how they integrated the telling of the story in to that. Guess not everyone else got the same out of it that I did.

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Venkman
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Reply #307 on: April 19, 2013, 09:11:11 AM

What? No. Maybe half that. 2-3 hours. Faster if you are playing on easy. And the last half hour is basically exposition anyway. You're in the last third of the game, for sure. 8 hours? The entire game can't be more than 10.

I'd just finish it, I liked the last third. Even though the game took a sharp right turn. If you think it's teenage-intellectual now, you haven't seen anything yet. Just wait.
I think it was 6 hours for me. I played this real slow though. I hear people did the whole game in 8-10 hours (maybe some even faster), but it took me 20. A couple of sequences I had trouble at, and I pretty much combed every part of the world though. Rare for me, but I heard it was short so somehow that made me want to stretch it out.

I have no idea  if Yuri had my special brand of OCD in this game though smiley

And son of a gun, when looking to confirm my hours in Infinite, I accidentally clicked on Bioshock 1 in my library. Turns out I bought it at some point. Guess I don't need to think about doing so anymore...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:12:47 AM by Darniaq »
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Reply #308 on: April 19, 2013, 09:33:51 AM

Infinite's "story" makes me want to punch baby giraffes. Games are not storytelling machines. They are story-making or experiential-sharing machines. If you want to tell me a story, go make a fucking movie or write a book.

I have no idea  if Yuri had my special brand of OCD in this game though smiley

I started off poking around in every corner looking at shit, but eventually it got tiresome and I put the "must finish game" blinders on.
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Reply #309 on: April 19, 2013, 04:48:56 PM

Infinite's "story" makes me want to punch baby giraffes. Games are not storytelling machines. They are story-making or experiential-sharing machines. If you want to tell me a story, go make a fucking movie or write a book.

I have no idea  if Yuri had my special brand of OCD in this game though smiley

I started off poking around in every corner looking at shit, but eventually it got tiresome and I put the "must finish game" blinders on.

I did this as well.  Finished in 12 hours.
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Reply #310 on: April 19, 2013, 06:48:18 PM

Do you mean


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. As soon as I saw that pop up I was like "no, fuck you for using the oldest video game trick in the book", save (lolno, I mean checkpoint), quit. If I wanted to play shitty RPGs where every single quest is interrupted by "well, I'll help you BUT FIRST YOU MUST TRUNCULATE THE SIX MACDOOGLES" I'd go play one of those.

I don't even know what I expected though. I gotta stop buying shooters.

From there you've got:


Venkman
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Reply #311 on: April 19, 2013, 06:50:44 PM

And son of a gun, when looking to confirm my hours in Infinite, I accidentally clicked on Bioshock 1 in my library. Turns out I bought it at some point. Guess I don't need to think about doing so anymore...

Man, Bioshock 1 really ripped off Infinite. Same lighthouse, Eve is just Vigor, Adam is just Health, coin counter is the same. No creativity at all!

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Really wish I played this first now (or second, depending on timestream). Finally beginning to understand ya'alls references.
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Reply #312 on: April 20, 2013, 07:22:31 AM

Depends what we are judging 'worst' on - worst output, or worst to work for?

Oops, wrong thread.

I'm playing this on 1999 mode and it really points out the weird spike in combat difficulty - I'm only in danger if I'm rushed (which all the big opponents do like Firemen or Motorized Founders).  Otherwise the best tactic is to sit back (preferably up high, with some cover) and then use the sniper rifle / carbine / pistol to shoot my targets. The AI doesn't seem to like the idea of jumping on the skyrails and may actually only be spawned on them, jumping off when they get close to you. If they have a ranged weapon (and if they have a melee weapon but there's a gun nearby, they'll go and pick it up) then standard enemies will find some cover and generally stick to it.

The Boys of Silence are also a completely wasted enemy type. I'd love to see a post-mortem of all the stuff that got left out of Bioshock: Infinite that appeared on shelves.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:56:32 AM by UnSub »

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Reply #313 on: April 20, 2013, 05:15:28 PM

Finished it in 10.1 hours. I didnt rush, and I pretty much explored all the side buildings. I enjoyed it up until the ending, which I didn't hate but it just kind of felt a bit cliche. I was expecting a real twist.

I don't think I would have wanted it to be much longer, but I don't feel cheated out of my money ether.
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Reply #314 on: April 28, 2013, 03:38:04 PM

... I don't get it. John Constantine in Colombia?

I wrote over 4000 words on my blog that basically says how disappointing Bioshock: Infinite is and how bewildered I am that out of over 100 professional reviews on Metacritic there is only one review that gives this game less than 80% (and that's Tom Chick's review). As a title it is pretty and soulless, with an ending that doesn't hold up to an iota of thought.

My problem with that is that Tom Chick was the reviewer who was so unbelievably ridiculously over the top in his praise of Bioshock 2 that anything he says regarding these types of game should really be ignored.  Either he was bought and paid for, or his frame of reference is massively outside normal gaming - say whatever else you like about Bioshock 2, I don't think anyone would describe it as the amazing storytelling experience Chick was pushing it as.

Personally, I absolutely loved Infinite. Enjoyed the fights,loved the storyline, and really enjoyed the ending. Absolutely worth every penny and definitely one of the best games I've played in a a long time.
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