Lua Script Coming to Turbine

[Mrbloodworth]

Meghan “Patience” Rodberg was a special guest on Stuncast episode 5 released yesterday. Meghan announced (at about 37 minutes in) that LOTRO will be adding the use of Lua script to allow player created add-ons (called mods) for the game.

If you’re not aware, Lua is a programming language that allows someone to create a mod that alters the interface or even use information from the game depending on Turbine’s preferences. Scripts like this are widely used to create mods for World of Warcraft and other games.

Before you freak out let me give you my experience using mods in World of Warcraft. For the most part, they are wonderful and optional. Not all mods are winners but find the ones you like and work well and you’ve got yourself a great enhancement to your game! Blizzard even takes successful mods and incorporates their functions into the base game from time to time when they find a mod that works really well and really improves the player experience.

I want to stress that this will only work with the functions and information in LOTRO that Turbine allows. We will have to wait and see what information is released regarding programming specifically for LOTRO mods but this is big news!

There are many helpful Lua Programming booksavailable out there for Lua scripting that may help you if you are interested in learning the language. There are some books specific to World of Warcraft scripting which you may want to avoid until we’re clear on what rules Turbine will set for us.

I’m very curious to see what mods players can come up with!

Link.

We wanted to clarify a few things about the potential implementation of LUA scripting. As it stands right now, the LUA scripting ability is completely controlled by us and its use is limited.

The Framework API, which controls what can and cannot be done, is separated into two main functional areas. The Framework API provides the basic structure of the scripts (classes), UI creation (windows, buttons, images, etc.), and a controlled setting to receive input, events, and actions generated by the game. The Gameplay API provides access to internal gameplay systems. The first pass of the gameplay API includes access to your own character's vitals, the ability to interface with quickslots, and the methods for interacting with items in your inventory.

So what does this all mean? Right now, given the limitations we have in place, the “plugins” players can create are restricted to the above Gameplay API areas. They can change some of your UI elements, add built in HUDS and allow for things like a travel panel or a single window inventory bag. Our intent is to not allow players to make “plugins” that will give them any kind of advantage over other players. The main idea here is that LUA allows the players the ability to customize their user interface the way they want to.

We are going to handle things very carefully as we move forward; to be very clear, LUA Scripting is still in the early stages of testing and we don’t yet have a date for when the system will go live.

Link.

[Hutch]

QQ Thread from the general forum

I wonder how many of the doomsayers in there have actually been burned by guilds requiring them to install DBM, and how many of them are just repeating campfire tales.

I also like the part where people think that Auctioneer gives its users an "unfair" advantage over non-users.

Or that the reason they got excluded from the ICC 25 pug is because someone invented GearScore.

There's also an old-school grognard running around the thread saying that Omen and Recount and DBM are crutches that play the game for you. The thread could be kind of an interesting anthropological study.

[Mrbloodworth]

QQ Thread from the general forum

I wonder how many of the doomsayers in there have actually been burned by guilds requiring them to install DBM, and how many of them are just repeating campfire tales.

I also like the part where people think that Auctioneer gives its users an "unfair" advantage over non-users.

Or that the reason they got excluded from the ICC 25 pug is because someone invented GearScore.

There's also an old-school grognard running around the thread saying that Omen and Recount and DBM are crutches that play the game for you. The thread could be kind of an interesting anthropological study.

Cant say I disagree with much of that. Thankfully I do not think Turbine will allow such automation. They have had a really long stance on such things, however this should allow users to make more custom GUI's instead of only having the ability to re-skin.

I also do not read that thread as "QQ".

[Tarami]

Eh, I tend to agree with them too. Auctioneer is a good thing technically speaking (informed market), if it's used by everyone - otherwise it is fucking obviously an unfair advantage. It's like having a chainsaw at a woodchopping contest.

[Zetor]

I think this is awesome news and don't see any downsides at all. IMO the vanilla lotro ui -- just like the vanilla wow ui -- leaves something to be desired; especially the (de)buff indicators were annoying for my LM. Bring on the UI mods, nom nom nom.

[Hutch]

Eh, I tend to agree with them too. Auctioneer is a good thing technically speaking (informed market), if it's used by everyone - otherwise it is fucking obviously an unfair advantage. It's like having a chainsaw at a woodchopping contest.

No, see, the "unfair" advantage doesn't just come from using Auctioneer. Without the addon, you can still run a search on the Auction House and see what everyone else is charging. And with the addon, you're not going to start being able to start buying low and selling high, without putting some effort (i.e. time) into it.

In order to obtain the "unfair" advantage, you have to spend a lot of time interacting with the AH. People will either do this or not do this regardless of the existence of the add-on. Auctioneer doesn't just hand out "market awareness". Market awareness comes from studying the market, which means spending a lot of time running searches and reading prices and god knows what else (I personally don't do this, I make most of my money via dailies and weeklies).

If you're having trouble making money on the AH, merely installing Auctioneer isn't going to help. It's not magic.

[Mrbloodworth]

Eh, I tend to agree with them too. Auctioneer is a good thing technically speaking (informed market), if it's used by everyone - otherwise it is fucking obviously an unfair advantage. It's like having a chainsaw at a woodchopping contest.

No, see, the "unfair" advantage doesn't just come from using Auctioneer. Without the addon, you can still run a search on the Auction House and see what everyone else is charging. And with the addon, you're not going to start being able to start buying low and selling high, without putting some effort (i.e. time) into it.

In order to obtain the "unfair" advantage, you have to spend a lot of time interacting with the AH. People will either do this or not do this regardless of the existence of the add-on. Auctioneer doesn't just hand out "market awareness". Market awareness comes from studying the market, which means spending a lot of time running searches and reading prices and god knows what else (I personally don't do this, I make most of my money via dailies and weeklies).

If you're having trouble making money on the AH, merely installing Auctioneer isn't going to help. It's not magic.

 

[WayAbvPar]

Being able to use Auctioneer might just extend my subscription time a bit. I love dealing with AH stuff, but it is fucking tedious as hell in LOTRO. I end up way underpricing things just to get them out of my inventory- I get more than I would from a vendor, but I know I am selling myself short. Just about everything about the LOTRO AH interface makes me stabby.

[Mrbloodworth]

Being able to use Auctioneer might just extend my subscription time a bit. I love dealing with AH stuff, but it is fucking tedious as hell in LOTRO. I end up way underpricing things just to get them out of my inventory- I get more than I would from a vendor, but I know I am selling myself short. Just about everything about the LOTRO AH interface makes me stabby.

Really? I always found it rather streamlined, especially the auto-fill for repeat items.

Perhaps you are suffering withdraws from auctioneer and bottom scanner?  Not a knock on you, but wasn't one of the first things you asked about here about a DB for all the auction price histories and rarity info (that comes in a handy tool tip if you have the right Wow adons)? The AH in games, are a sub game. Auctioneer, bottom scanner and things like knowing an items selling history remove this "game", if not downright makes it a requirement to "play". May as well remove the AH altogether IMO. In LOTRO, you have to play that "game".

Turbine has a strong stance on automated game-play and 3ed party software. They tend to improve things internally (See quest guide, e-mail auto fill, AH price fill in, and node tracking skills + Mob tracking skills) rather than expose potentially game breaking and mechanic breaking functions. IE: If they allowed the mob finder like in Wow, who needs a hunter anymore?

I agree with the philosophy, if anything, this is what people are worried about with this potential change. Marginalizing or automating game features.

[Hutch]

Eh, I tend to agree with them too. Auctioneer is a good thing technically speaking (informed market), if it's used by everyone - otherwise it is fucking obviously an unfair advantage. It's like having a chainsaw at a woodchopping contest.

No, see, the "unfair" advantage doesn't just come from using Auctioneer. Without the addon, you can still run a search on the Auction House and see what everyone else is charging. And with the addon, you're not going to start being able to start buying low and selling high, without putting some effort (i.e. time) into it.

In order to obtain the "unfair" advantage, you have to spend a lot of time interacting with the AH. People will either do this or not do this regardless of the existence of the add-on. Auctioneer doesn't just hand out "market awareness". Market awareness comes from studying the market, which means spending a lot of time running searches and reading prices and god knows what else (I personally don't do this, I make most of my money via dailies and weeklies).

If you're having trouble making money on the AH, merely installing Auctioneer isn't going to help. It's not magic.

 

You're kind of a douchebag, aren't you.

[Mrbloodworth]

Nope. Auctioneer is MAGIC compared to not using it. Normal users dont get the price history, or comparisons, or the ability to use bottom scanner (that got moved to its own app), that automates the thinking part of playing an auction house.

At present, those are:

    * Arbitrage - Determine if an item can be sold at another auction house for a profit, this includes cross-faction and cross-realm searches.
    * Converter - Determine whether items are posted that can be easily transformed into their other forms and sold at a profit. e.g. Greater Essences morphed into Lesser Essences.
    * Disenchant - Determine if an item is worth buying in order to disenchant with Enchanting.
    * EnchantMats - Determine if an item is worth buying in order to enchant with Enchanting.
    * General - A simple filter, for the most basic searches.
    * Milling - Determine if an item is worth buying in order to mill with Inscription.
    * Prospect - Determine if an item is worth buying in order to prospect with Jewelcrafting.
    * Resale - Determine if an item is priced such that you can bid or buyout the auction, relist, and potentially still make a profit.
    * Snatch - Determine if an item is worth buying in order to quickly purchase all such items on the auction house.
    * Vendor - Determine if a game NPC will purchase an item for more than the current list price- buyout, bid, or both.

Tell me that someone not using this can compete, it removes the need for any in game knowledge or effort.

[Yegolev]

I have always wanted price histories but did not want to bother tracking them.  Me, I am spoiled by EVE Online, which makes any other MMO AH look like a broken Fischer-Price toy.  I don't know how much will be allowed or anything else, so I'll just save any QQ for when it comes out.

[Soln]

you know, LOTRO isn't supposed to be predicated on gear like WoW.  So there was never the crying need for an Auction tool as good.  I can't see Turbine allowing that much automation -- damage meters, gear score, and UI window arrangement and the like maybe will be possible.  Not a bad thing.

[Ingmar]

I don't give a damn about the unfair advantage, the default auction interface for LotRO is just plain shitty. The stuff that Auctioneer allows as far price histories and that sort of thing, whatever, I don't care. I just want the batch posting and such.

Tell me that someone not using this can compete, it removes the need for any in game knowledge or effort.

A) That's just not true. How are you going to get stuff to sell in the first place without ingame knowledge or effort?
B) Why would anyone not use it anyway? Having some hardline "oh I play the game without crutches" stance is ridiculous, the line between what goes into the base game interface and what the devs didn't feel like implementing as far as this stuff goes is awfully arbitrary.

[Segoris]

Nope. Auctioneer is MAGIC compared to not using it. Normal users dont get the price history, or comparisons, or the ability to use bottom scanner (that got moved to its own app), that automates the thinking part of playing an auction house.

Tell me that someone not using this can compete, it removes the need for any in game knowledge or effort.

Yes, people can compete without that. I did it for my entire WoW playing time. The AH is how I made money, all without auctioneer or any AH mods (except AH Reset a while back, that was it). How did I do it? Because I have a memory and can perform basic mathematical calculations. Additionally, a lot of the older players learned what items could be turned into what raw materials because we didn't have things like auctioneer. Now, could the auctioneer mod have sped that up for me? Most likely, but I didn't feel it was needed (though I was never against it and am pro-mods) and was making very good money spending my first and last 10 mins of play sessions on the AH.

That said, there's no denying that it removes the need to put in any effort and caters to both the new players and lazy. To me though, it is a bit of an equalizer. Many times in MMOs the thought process is "get in game early or you'll never catch up" or that casuals will never have what catasses have. This is what allows people to "catch up" in the auction house game and is a step in the right direction for this aspect of a game. If I was a brand new WoW player today I'd love this mod and wouldn't have learned the things I learned just to play a game effectively. It streamlines a powerful tool.

Most importantly though, It isn't something that is only available to certain people, it's not gained by any form of exploiting or cheating or hacking. It is available to everyone. Why anyone argues that it shouldn't be allowed? I'll never know. That line of thinking is just silly imo.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't give a damn about the unfair advantage, the default auction interface for LotRO is just plain shitty. The stuff that Auctioneer allows as far price histories and that sort of thing, whatever, I don't care. I just want the batch posting and such.

Tell me that someone not using this can compete, it removes the need for any in game knowledge or effort.

A) That's just not true. How are you going to get stuff to sell in the first place without ingame knowledge or effort?
B) Why would anyone not use it anyway? Having some hardline "oh I play the game without crutches" stance is ridiculous, the line between what goes into the base game interface and what the devs didn't feel like implementing as far as this stuff goes is awfully arbitrary.

You misunderstand me entirely.

I take no issue with official improvements or additions. I take exception to third party automation or circumventing mechanics. My comment about in game knowledge or effort is in reference to the wealth of information that should be in game and player learned knowledge of things like, how valuable an item is, what NPC's buy it for ETC.. With auctioneer you do not need to know any of this, it tells you, to the point it recommends you buy and sell it for X amount because nub user not using auctioneer under priced it.

I have no hardliner don't play with crutches, I have a hard line do not devalue your game play and mechanics by allowing third party apps to automate them or invalidate them.

Bulk listing is not really related, its also something they have talked about adding in the past. Your view of the functionality of the LOTRO AH, or perhaps any AH system in any game is going to be tainted, as you have had automation for to long. Being forced to play the AH game "for real", is perhaps jarring.

Yegolev example of Eve's system is fine and dandy, because EVERYONE has it, by default. An individuals ability to comprehend it is a different story, and is part of the knowledge and effort I speak of. However, you can't sit here and say that auctioneer is not mandatory to use the AH at this point, and no one currently using it would play any game (with out complaints that is) that did not include it.

Hence grievances with the AH in LOTRO, you are comparing it to a third party automation APP. Not the vanilla AH interface in Wow.

[Ingmar]

No, my view of it isn't tainted. LotRO just plain has a terrible AH interface in just about every way. I use it a lot when I'm playing LotRO, there's a ton of money to be made, but the interface really wants to fight you the whole way. I've thought that since before I started using Auctioneer in WoW, even.

Yeg is right that these games could all stand to learn a lot from Eve for this sort of thing.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't disagree that it could use some sprucing up. My main point is, official change, not external 3D party ones that end up being required.

[Ingmar]

I don't see any reason to care about the difference.

[Mrbloodworth]

Games are typically based on even playing fields, for me, this even extends to the availability of information and how its obtained.

In order to obtain the "unfair" advantage, you have to spend a lot of time interacting with the AH. People will either do this or not do this regardless of the existence of the add-on. Auctioneer doesn't just hand out "market awareness". Market awareness comes from studying the market, which means spending a lot of time running searches and reading prices and god knows what else (I personally don't do this, I make most of my money via dailies and weeklies).

This right here, in my view it 100% wrong. Its entire purpose in life is to hand out market awareness in moments. It removes the entirety of this:

How did I do it? Because I have a memory and can perform basic mathematical calculations. Additionally, a lot of the older players learned what items could be turned into what raw materials because we didn't have things like auctioneer.

[Rasix]

STOP. DEFENDING. EVERYTHING.

[Ingmar]

I'm guessing you haven't used Auctioneer much, Hutch is essentially correct. To get Auctioneer to work right it requires a lot of time and training it and maintenance. It is just a tool. We can't ban people from writing down numbers and keeping their own spreadsheets; in a sense stuff like AH makes the playing field *more* level, because with it available a lot more people can play that game.

Most of the bitter complaining about Auctioneer came from the small group of people who dominated the WoW economy before it became available, because it made it too easy for the peons to compete with them. You're making all the same arguments they did.

[Mrbloodworth]

STOP. DEFENDING. EVERYTHING.

WTF? I actually do not like the possibilities lua scripting opens up.

I'm guessing you haven't used Auctioneer much

I did for quite a while and I felt dirty. I understand that its may be a philosophy that is not popular. Its not just the automation that I dislike, it even extends to all the added data that that comes with it on hover over and the like.

Granted, its been a long time. I just feel that a UI is as much a part of a game as any mob or creature, allowing people to script, or import data or even see direct locations, while not being part of the base game, is wrong.

I may indeed be arguing on principle. But I play games to play games for what they are, not to maximize imaginary output. To me, an AH in any MMO is a separate "game" unto itself, some more than others.

[Ingmar]

STOP. DEFENDING. EVERYTHING.

WTF? I actually do not like the possibilities lua scripting opens up.

Right, you're thus defending the terrible default interface. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Its felling more and more like I am being required to include every grievance I may have with a single title in every post, just to discuss something.

Perhaps I should just put it all in one giant sig or something.

Because clearly, not bringing up things, instantly means that nothing could be wrong, even if I have said them before 100 times.

[WayAbvPar]

STOP. DEFENDING. EVERYTHING.

Fixed that for you.

[Mrbloodworth]

Fine.

[Sjofn]

If it means getting a UI that isn't total ass in nearly every respect in LotRO, I say BRING IT ON. And I use three mods tops in WoW. Auctioneer isn't one of them. 

[Yegolev]

If it means getting a UI that isn't total ass in nearly every respect in LotRO, I say BRING IT ON.

I suppose this is my stance.  I have not heard jack-squat about the rumored UI revamp since shortly after Moria came out... I suppose this is it?  Whatever, as long as it isn't the AC2 interface anymore.  I'd say Horizons had a better UI than LotRO.  Not that I have a huge problem with this UI, just small irritants due to my low, low standards.  Like hotkey arrangement.  I am not someone who actually uses CTRL or ALT or SHIFT, and I end up clicking on things with my mouse a lot.

Maybe someone will come up with a notepad mod.  I want to take notes sometimes but writing things on paper on my desk is a horrible trap.  RPGs which give me a freeform notepad are some of my favorites.

[Cadaverine]

As far as mods like Auctioneer, or Bottomfeeder, go, more power to 'em.  I used Auctioneer when I played WoW.  I have no interest in 'playing the AH game'.  All I want to do is sell my loot, and get a fair price for it, without any hassle.  I have neither the time, nor the desire, to track what the going price for mats, or whatever, are.  So I occasionally run a scan, and it tells me what the prices are for items I'm trying to sell.  I post them up, and quite frankly, I'm probably still underselling them.  I collect my monies, and go about doing whatever it is that I want to do. 

To the best of my knowledge, they aren't doing anything that couldn't be done with Excel, and some time and effort.  They're just eliminating drudgery for me.  All I want to do is play the game, and relax, not fight with a clunky, archaic interface, or waste a bunch of my time trying to keep track of prices on the auction house.

I would like to have a notepad feature available as well.  Even better would be the ability to pin a note to any object in the game, be it other players, the map, quest log, whatever.

[Modern Angel]

Someone is free to point me to the WoW mod that "automates" (like genuinely automates, not tells you the dragon fire is coming) anything. Annnnnyyyyttthhiiingggg.

[caladein]

Out-of-combat there are plenty of things: restocking reagents, repairing, selling vendor trash, and selecting what food to use are the most applicable.

Edit: Links.

[Modern Angel]

Point conceded. Changing statement: Anything that matters. There's this idea amongst people who haven't used a lot of WoW mods that they do things which they simply do not and cannot do. There's no mod that plays the game for you. There's a limit on what you can compress into one button macros.

I imagine that LOTRO is going to be FAR stricter with stuff like boss mods than WoW ever was and boss mods were merely conveniences, not requirements or automators. Much caterwauling over nothing in the end.

[Nebu]

WoW failed for me at the point I realized that I wasn't playing the game, but rather the interface.  I'm tired of managing bars, counters, and cooldowns.  I want to watch my avatar and the world that it is in.  Anything that distracts me from that changes the game from one of adventure to a game of bar management.   

[Rasix]

WoW failed for me at the point I realized that I wasn't playing the game, but rather the interface.  I'm tired of managing bars, counters, and cooldowns.  I want to watch my avatar and the world that it is in.  Anything that distracts me from that changes the game from one of adventure to a game of bar management.    

You're going to get that to any DIKU or any modern MMORPG for that matter.  It won't be until there are more action centric hybrids on the market or someone comes up with an avatar integrated UI (ala Dead Space) that you'll see any relief from that.  I don't think anyone's going back to the simplicity that was the Ultima Online UI anytime soon.

I'm interested to see what comes out of this.  I do not like LOTRO's UI at all and like others, the auction house was an unusable information deluge for me when I last played.