Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Malakili]

Speaking personally, I vastly prefer questing to grinding. In EQ2 at launch (when I was admittedly quite the catass), quest XP was nonexistent and the best XP to be had was in Permafrost, so that's where we went; 6 of us ran circles around the upper level of this dungeon for hours and hours just to gain a single level. It was INCREDIBLY boring, but it was the best xp so that's where we stayed, because we all wanted to be the first to 50. When I finally hit 50, I quit within a month because I was so burnt out from that grind.

Comparing that to WoW's (or even present day EQ2) quest-to-max, you see a lot more diversity and as a result the journey feels a lot less tedious to me.

Well, the thing is, just don't grind.  Nothing forces you to grind 1 thing until max other than your own desire to max out first.  This is probably why I prefer a game without levels as well, or at least with an advancement system that isn't levels.  If you are only viable once "maxed" then getting maxed has to be your first order of business, regardless of anything else.  Like I mentioned before in Darkfall, if my goals for Darkfall were "Get better at using swords, and get some reagents" I could just find out where some good reagant dropping monsters are, and go fight them, and then if I got bored, go do something else.  I guess thats "grinding" but I could just as easily say to myself "Collect 20 reagents, then return to town and put it in the bank" and then when I get back say "Ok, time to go collect some backup leather gear, I'll go kill goblins until I have 2 backup sets"  Those are "quests" and you don't have to go around just doing what you're told like a robot.   

Thats my biggest issue with the "quest grind" actually, I feel like a total errand boy, I can't even play single player RPGs most of the time anymore because of this.  Even ones with choice in dialog I always end up thinking...shit I hate all these choices.  Though games like the Bethesda RPGs are right up my alley because I can ignore the quest lines and just go for whatever playstyle I want.

[NowhereMan]

I think the difference between that and EQ grinding is the grind in EQ was almost always with one goal in mind 'More XP' and really you needed to do it in order to do anything else. The grind wears you out because every time you ding and level all you actually have to look forward to once the thrill of new shiney zone, spells or skills wears off is more and more and more of the same. In UO I'd do that sort of crap but never really felt like I was doing it because I had no other choice, like Malakii's example there was a feeling that I had some immediate goal in sight and skill gaining was a means to an end in that regard, as was killing mobs for loot or crafting or whatever. It never felt quite as forced grinding as EQ or FFXI. The quest system in WoW does a good job of throwing in some other goal than levelling for its own sake, yes you're really trying to get to 70 but at any individual point you've got a clear goal to accomplish that you're within reach of.

Of course this doesn't mean much when the design philosophy of a 40K MMO should be aimed at finding better and better ways to kill enemies. I guess it could work with a PvE element if levelling gives you access to more and more options for PvP, somewhat like Planetside, and levels themselves don't matter hugely when you're squaring up against other players.

[Malakili]

I think the difference between that and EQ grinding is the grind in EQ was almost always with one goal in mind 'More XP' and really you needed to do it in order to do anything else. The grind wears you out because every time you ding and level all you actually have to look forward to once the thrill of new shiney zone, spells or skills wears off is more and more and more of the same. In UO I'd do that sort of crap but never really felt like I was doing it because I had no other choice, like Malakii's example there was a feeling that I had some immediate goal in sight and skill gaining was a means to an end in that regard, as was killing mobs for loot or crafting or whatever. It never felt quite as forced grinding as EQ or FFXI. The quest system in WoW does a good job of throwing in some other goal than levelling for its own sake, yes you're really trying to get to 70 but at any individual point you've got a clear goal to accomplish that you're within reach of.

Of course this doesn't mean much when the design philosophy of a 40K MMO should be aimed at finding better and better ways to kill enemies. I guess it could work with a PvE element if levelling gives you access to more and more options for PvP, somewhat like Planetside, and levels themselves don't matter hugely when you're squaring up against other players.

Which is why I mentioned in one of my previous posts something along the lines of "I realize the EQ grind isn't good either"

[DLRiley]

Now talking from my bias. I found league of legends grindy. Sure I eventually reached level 30 and has several rune pages but i've known people who i've played with for 3 weeks now, who when i met them was level 13 and now they are level 20.... My grind senses are pretty high, with the difference between EQ and UO to me being the "oh you don't have to grind har har" excuse. I mean if that's your statement than i might as well say "i don't have to play either har har". I think the problem I have with sandbox is no personal attachments to any element that allows me to ignore the grind. For example league of legends is grindy not just by levels but by runes as well. I don't even play jax because i don't have any dodge runes for him (which at my level actually matters). If i was cocked blocked for every champ i would have uninstalled easy. Instead I worked with the game despite the faults I knew exist because the competitive element (the only reason i get online to play a video game) fit my needs and wants (though i still yearn for a 15 minute game type). I remember spending hours in single player rpg just running around in circles trying to level up. Dedicate entire play sessions towards simply leveling up. I mean wtf, but I didn't mind, fuck if i cared, I HAD to know what happened next. I had to see my characters evolve and grow and say something else and see what the villains will do next or how bad shit getting. Was there a plot twist around the corner? Wouldn't know i'm only level 14, fuck i'll play till i'm 20.

 What does darkfall has to offer me? +1 alchemy? Or having to find a non asshat guild so i have to spend more time in game, most of which doing what exactly? Does the game even know, if the game doesn't know why should i care? I mean that's the problem with the sandbox games, or simply a problem i have with sandbox game. I'm sure df is fun with 10 people willing to drop 50 but errr, is that a reason for me to play by myself? Honestly if LoL was only fun with others i would have quit playing it, i bought global agenda out of group think since 3 other guys were buying it and was bored to tears. The game was ass to me, sure marginally fun with someone laughing it up on vent but what is my reason to play if he isn't online? I didn't pay full price for a game just to play it on someone else schedule.

[Malakili]

is that a reason for me to play by myself?

No, its not.  If you don't want to play a game with other people, its not a game for you.  In fact, any MMO concept I can think of that I would like relies on other people.  Otherwise I don't see the point of the MMO in the first place.  I mean, thats the beginning and end of the discussion if it gets to that point with me.  If I want to play a single player game, I'm not going to play an MMO, period.  I think this is where me and a lot of people here are going to be at odds though.

[DLRiley]

Well for me, the difference between me liking a game and not raging on the first retarded thing I find is whether I can play this on my own. Fact is buying a game for me is not a group think decision. I don't go "all my friends are buying this so i have to" sounds strange considering the data says the opposite (so me being a minority in this case). But again I didn't plunk $50 on a game so I can play on other peoples schedule, a lot of people who do purchase a game out of group think do play a good portion of the game solo. Other wise we would still be in the "no group no nothing" stage of mmo game design. If the game is compelling enough for me to enjoy the solo play than I look to "up" my game by playing with others. My theory is that if I'm enjoying the game and reaching my peak than the game should be equally as fun and most likely more fun with other non-asshats people laughing our asses off on vent while pwning some noobs/pve. That's the only reason why I would stomach going out and looking for the "guild" to call home. Though now a days I play with people who have been playing games with me for a while so the need to find "that" guild becomes less neccessary, I simply don't play games which aren't fun when my friends aren't online. The problem with mmo's and especially sandboxy ones is that they don't see or treat players as individuals. You are a disposable memeber of a "tag" that represents your guild, and all the incentives and actual decision making is in expecting that tag to do something like it is an individual player. I think a game like WAR big fault is seeing its player base as HORDE DESTRUCTION and ALLIANCE ORDER and never giving incentives past that level. Kinda like treating a corporation like a single person (not bring politics into this).  

[Malakili]

Well for me, the difference between me liking a game and not raging on the first retarded thing I find is whether I can play this on my own. Fact is buying a game for me is not a group think decision. I don't go "all my friends are buying this so i have to" sounds strange considering the data says the opposite (so me being a minority in this case). But again I didn't plunk $50 on a game so I can play on other peoples schedule...

I generally don't play games with my real life friends.   If a game looks interesting enough I seek out a guild for it before I even buy it to see if I can find a community to play with.  If I can't find a good group of people who play around the times I'll be playing, I just don't play the game in the first place.   


Anyway, I don't even remember how this conversation started anyway, or what it had to do with 40k.

[Sheepherder]

Though games like the Bethesda RPGs are right up my alley because I can ignore the quest lines and just go for whatever playstyle I want.

Oblivion can afford to have long respawns, few mobs, and very gentle progression.  MMO's can't - they'll quickly have every mob harvested resulting in a tragedy of the commons scenario, and players need something big and explodey to go along with their ding, otherwise they'll tire of the tools they have available with the amount of time investment expected of them.

Quests keep people cycling through the content at a brisk pace: player's don't skullfuck their own and other people's fun by grinding zones to depletion, the scenery changes, the encounters change, the objectives change, and the random distribution of players keeps the world saner (Quel'Danas was a perfect example of what overpopulation does).

[Stabs]

Now talking from my bias. I found league of legends grindy.

I didn't find this at all. In fact I didn't even realise I had a character which was gaining levels until about level 5, I thought you just picked a random hero and off you went.

I think it's good not to analyse past the point of fun. I don't mean don't analyse. I mean only analyse if it will improve your enjoyment.

What I hope for in WH40KO is to be able to get on Vent and make puns in an Orkish accent while shooting some people. If I start to stress about getting more crit rating or whatever I'll try and make myself switch off my analytical side and get back in touch with my inner hooligan.

[DLRiley]

I think i'm just sensitive. I hit cock blocks fast and hard and very little can convince me not to uninstall at that point.

[eldaec]

its about finding cheap solutions to complex problems and most of these companies don't even bother.

I think making robust game mechanics that allow for tons of content is a lot more cost effective than trying to pump out more and more quests and the art/text/etc that goes along with that.  But then again, no one likes the games I like.

That is certainly more cost effective to build, but in no way effective to market.

See: EVE Online.

I suppose so, but it doesn't NECESSARILY have to have the parts of EVE/Darkfall that make it unpopular (steep learning curve, full loot PvP, etc).   I've always assumed that was the real reason those games are held back.

Darkfall is held back because it is shit.

EVE doesn't have full loot pvp in the sense most mean it - it would be more like a fantasy game were gear was almost always easily replaceable, but gets destroyed when you die.

And the steep learning curve isn't really that steep if you just want to hang around empire doing the equivalent of what you would do in EQ/WoW. It is held back because it doing that shit in an environment where all the developer effort is put into other things (creating robust rules for players to become content for each other) is boring as hell.

Where it does have a learning curve is when you play against other players (be it in combat, or the economy, or wherever). But there the problem is that you are trying to beat someone who got here 3 years ago, and that problem is inherent to games that rely on 'robust rules for player interaction', especially if they have enough depth to keep people playing that long. All the game can really do is find ways to encourage vets to accept new players into corps.

[Arthur_Parker]

I suspect PvP in MMO's are going to remain relatively niche for a while.

WoW changed things dramatically, so much so, that terms we use for this became outdated.  PVP is mainstream now, what's niche and always will be, is a harsh death penalty.

I shouldn't need to back the above up, as even PVE WoW servers have battlegrounds but I wanted to see what has changed since 2006.

In April 2006, 53% of US WoW servers are PVP, 61% in Europe.

Today from here and here, 46% of US WoW servers are PVP, 55% in Europe.

The above could be down to many things, I just thought it was interesting.

[Bzalthek]

Where's that jump to khanclusions mat when you need it.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Malakili - I agree with you that core systems are critical.  But we do seem to disagree on the need for content.  I'll grant that quests are often poor placeholders for meaningful content.  But good quests can provide all sorts of things that an otherwise empty/open world can't, including stories, lore, a sense of place, and reasons for doing the things we do in the game.  

[Pantastic]

Having the Imperium all be on the same side makes perfect sense. The conceit for us at the tabletop was always that the Guard army was secretly in cahoots with Chaos or rebellious or whatever and not really Imperium at all. It's the grand alliance of Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar which crops up over and over again which doesn't make much sense.

The backstory doesn't usually have the any grand alliance as far as I know. It's always more like Orks are attacking this imperial planet, Chaos shows up to mess with the Imperium and try to get an ancient artifact, Dark Eldar pop in to raid some imperial formations while they're busy, and Necrons wake up and head for the artifact which happens to be where the Imperium is. There's only limited if any cooperation between the forces, they just happen to be fighting the same people for their own reasons.

For tabletop 'blue on blue' you can always just say it's a training exercise if you want to make it simple, but there are really a ton of reasons for imperials to fight each other even if both think they're legitimate. Some factions have secrets they'll fight another force to protect, especially marine chapters. Marines don't follow the standard Imperial Cult so can raise the ire of orthodox groups like the sisters, or can anger other marine chapters by being too different. Inquisitors have wildly different philosophies some of which are heretical to other Inquisitors. Local nobles or rogue traders might try to settle a dispute with forces under their control.

[Arthur_Parker]

Danny Bilson Eurogamer interview

Eurogamer: I've been excited about the Warhammer 40K MMO for a long time. When will it be out?

Danny Bilson: A couple more years. It really is about two years out.

Look, there is an 800 pound gorilla out there called World of Warcraft, which is a fantastic MMO that's going to get updated with Cataclysm soon and drive a lot of people including myself back into it.

I'm a big MMO fan and player. I've played EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heroes, I've got a few level 80 characters in WOW. Now, imagine that the people making Dark Millennium Online are all a bunch of guys like me, who love WOW and the expansions it's had along the way.

We all say to ourselves, 'We're not going to get all the WOW players to move to 40K.' 40K has its own unique coolness and edge. And that edge and glorious gore is not going to appeal to everybody. It appeals to you and I.

But what I know about our 40K game is that if you've played WOW you'll be able to pick up and play this instantly, and you'll find all these things that feel like upgrades, in a way.

How soon you get vehicles, how many vehicles there are in the universe. If you know 40K, you know the things in the universe. You know the races. You know things like ranged combat is going to be important for the bolters. You know the chainsword matters, and having both.

You know being an ork is a completely different experience than being a Space Marine, and being a Space Marine alone is a very different experience than being a scout or an Imperial Guard or any of the other Imperium of Man that you're going to see in this trailer.

What does being an Inquisitor mean? That's down the road somewhere. I always say too much in these things, but I get excited.

It has a lot of the same qualities of WOW in terms of ease of use and how the interface is. I want to say that if you play WOW, you'll be able to jump into Dark Millennium Online really easy.

But you won't be able to be a Space Marine right away, because that's a very unique class, if you know the universe. The road there is a great road, and they are in the game.

WOW this, WOW that, so much for the promised more info at gamescon.

Eurogamer: So Dawn of War III may be like Company of Heroes Online, then?

Danny Bilson: Could be. It all depends on how COHO does, and how it works and how people respond to it. If they do that would definitely drive us to... Now Dawn of War III, either way, is going to have a much larger strategic component to it, more of a global battle going on with little tactical things, sort of MMO-like.

I'm just giving you a lot of preview. We haven't announced anything about it, and it's still in its early formative stage, but I'm just talking to you about the brainstorming going on around it. I'm excited about it. I'm a big fan of that, obviously.

How messed up is it that from a mmo point of view, Dawn of War III sounds more interesting than DMO?

[Gets]

I wholeheartedly wish this thing will get canned now, for the sake of everybody.

[Modern Angel]

Goddamn. I can't think of another game that just comes out and says, "Nope, we're pretty much just like WoW." That's a pretty weird strategy.

[Brogarn]

I wonder if the guy was wearing sunglasses during the interview.

[Speedy Cerviche]

barf....

So warhammer online in space?

Now Dawn of War III DOES sound interesting, sounds like they are talking about a re-make of Shattered Galaxy which was a pretty fun game.

[K9]

Goddamn. I can't think of another game that just comes out and says, "Nope, we're pretty much just like WoW." That's a pretty weird strategy.

Frankly it's a refreshing change from all the MMOs that come out loud and proud stating "we're not just another WoW clone" and then turn out to be exactly that, only done a lot worse.

[Hutch]

Danny Bilson Eurogamer interview

Danny Bilson:
But you won't be able to be a Space Marine right away, because that's a very unique class, if you know the universe. The road there is a great road, and they are in the game.

Lum notes the parallel between this boneheaded idea and another game. A game that came out so long ago that you'd think the lesson would be common knowledge in the games industry.

[Soln]

I wonder if the guy was wearing sunglasses during the interview.

I was wondering if he was wearing any pants.

[rattran]

And if you 'know the universe' you'd know that Space Marines are born, not developed as a class.

[HaemishM]

Jesus Fucking Christ. World of Space Marines, only you'll probably have to develop a level 50 scout or Imperial Guard grunt to become a goddamn Death Knight Space Marine. I cannot think of a worse set of epic fail statements - except for everything that came of out of Barnett's mouth, ever.

DOW3 does sound much more interesting.

[Arthur_Parker]

Warhammer 40,000 Dark Millennium online - Gamescom Trailer  First race announcement video, race not totally unexpected.

Four new screenshots.

[HaemishM]

Well, that trailer certainly looked better than the first one they showed, but still get this feeling of "Stand there and shoot at each other from 20 paces."

[Arthur_Parker]

It's two years away and I've already given up hope, I'm just going to enjoy the crash.


First one, I actually like.^

[jakonovski]

I would've preferred a Darksiders-esque action rpg. The video looks way too much like "press hotkey, watch pre-canned animation, numbers fly over enemy's head."

[Malakili]

I would've preferred a Darksiders-esque action rpg. The video looks way too much like "press hotkey, watch pre-canned animation, numbers fly over enemy's head."

Shit, just make it a straight first or third person shooter MMO. 

[JWIV]

They need to stop with the fucking bait and switch of showing Space Marines.  All they're doing is setting themselves up for an epic shitstorm on the day of release when you're average 40K player picks this shit up and is in for a rude awakening.

[jakonovski]

They need to stop with the fucking bait and switch of showing Space Marines.  All they're doing is setting themselves up for an epic shitstorm on the day of release when you're average 40K player picks this shit up and is in for a rude awakening.

Sorry man, we have no Spaes Mahrins, but here's a religious cyborg in a dress.

[Arthur_Parker]

Warhammer 40.000: Dark Millenium Online Interview

Strategy Informer: How do you feel about Mythic Entertainment? They've already been working with Games Workshop with Age of Reckoning and so have that experience there already.

David Adams: Honestly, I'm indifferent. The Warhammer 40K IP is similar, but because it's got gun, got that sci-fi setting, that when people see our game it won't even evoke memories of Warhammer Online, they just won't think about it. I dunno I don't really dwell on it.

Strategy Informer: This was only formally announced just recently, although its existence has been known for a while longer – how far a long are you currently in terms of development?

David Adams: We've been in earnest development for the last year and half to two years. We're solidly in production – we have all the basic systems of the game figured out. We're a still a couple of years away though, so its not like we're close or anything.
...
Strategy Informer: The 40K universe has always been more war orientated, a little universe war, all v all type of thing... how are you going to really portray that in this game beyond the usual?

David Adams: Obviously this is going to be more action orientated than a typical MMO, it's going to be more visceral, more responsive, cause and effect etc... PvP is going to be important to that because it's about war, but we don't want to neglect PvE. I would say that our game is pretty balanced, there's an equivalent amount of PvE vs PvP content. We wanted, as a player, to feel like you had a choice on how you wanted to play the game, if you want to be a hardcore PvPer, great, if you want to do the more exploratory elements of the 40K universe, we've got content for that too. We're going to have an avenue for both types of player.
...
Strategy Informer: Because this is pretty much a first look at the game, can you explain a little bit about the set-up? The fiction that the MMO will be based around?

David Adams: The beauty of 40K is that it's a giant world, lots of space to plan, lots of systems to play around with. We have our own system called the Sargos Sector, there are multiple planets within this sector where our game takes place. Gameplay will take place both on and off planet. There will be a central storyline but that will more to tie things together in the backdrop. There's going to be multiple stories and stories with different points of view – but they'll be some climatic struggle centred around some alien constructs, a mystery will unfold and there will be a high-stakes struggle for dominance. These are all themes that are prevalent throughout the 40k universe, so we're working with those because they're tried and true and they're what people are familiar with.

Strategy Informer: I assume you're going to divide up the playable races by factions? They only thing is, apart from ones like Imperial guard and Space Marines who can stick together, not all of the other races fit neatly into 'factions'. The Eldar, the Tau, the Necrons, Tyranids Chaos... had to generalise them. Are you going to try sticking with the traditional two factions or branch out to more?

Tim Campbell: We're going to have two overall factions in the game, and all of the playable races are going to fit into one or the other.

There are compelling reasons why that works in this situation and our game, and Games Workshops are completely on board with it so we're not doing anything that violates the IP or the fiction – the details though will be revealed in the near future.
...
Strategy Informer: Coming back to combat, another staple of the 40K universe is the vehicular element. Everything from a speeder or a tank all the way up to a Titan take part in these ferocious 40K battles – will that be represented at all?

David Adams: We have three different classes of vehicles in the game: personal craft that you use to get around the world, public transport that everyone uses, and combat vehicles. Take tanks for instance – multiple characters will be able to jump into them, they'll drive, man the turrets, vehicles will have physical interactions with the environment. They're going to use what we call 'Cart racer' physics, the fun side of physics so you don't need an advanced degree just to control them. You won't have to worry about tipping over or getting stuck, but you will be able to go over things.

Strategy Informer: It's obviously too early to talk about a specific release date, but do you have a window you're looking to hit?

Tim Campbell: We do: we're slating the game for release during our 2012/13 fiscal year, so that will be sometime between April 1st 2012 and March 31st 2013.

Strategy Informer: The MMO space is starting to get more and more populated now – can you just sum up what you think will make your game stand out from competitors?

David Adams: We think our IP, the moment to moment gameplay, the vehicles, the PvE and PvP integration. That's where we're being innovative, and that's where we think we're different. We have our unique blend of sci-fi with a little bit of fantasy and horror thrown in. We're embracing guns and action gameplay, we're embracing compelling and high quality vehicles. We think that's a lot for us to stand out and take ownership of.

I'm sure the lead designer for a game and company he's openly indifferent about, said almost exactly the same as "there's an equivalent amount of PvE vs PvP content. We wanted, as a player, to feel like you had a choice on how you wanted to play the game, if you want to be a hardcore PvPer, great, if you want to do the more exploratory elements of the 40K universe, we've got content for that too. We're going to have an avenue for both types of player."

[Nebu]

I'm sure the lead designer for a game and company he's openly indifferent about, said almost exactly the same as "there's an equivalent amount of PvE vs PvP content. We wanted, as a player, to feel like you had a choice on how you wanted to play the game, if you want to be a hardcore PvPer, great, if you want to do the more exploratory elements of the 40K universe, we've got content for that too. We're going to have an avenue for both types of player."

Statements like this leave me feeling like "We're trying to be everything to everyone and as a result, we'll be yet another mediocre MMO experience."

I've lost hope in this being anything but a game that has 1 million box sales and disappears in 6 months.

[Lum]

My blog comments have gotten  

I can't figure out where my entry got linked but it was somewhere VERY HARD CORE

oh, hi, it was 4chan: http://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/11755655