Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online

[Arthur_Parker]

Someone linked me this ‘article’ in a Warhammer fan community. I don’t know what site I’m on, who you are, or if you’re some kind of staff member or anyone with any kind of credibility at all, but you are an idiot. People like you are the reason that there are a lot of actual dedicated 40k fans that are approaching this MMO with skepticism and trepidation: Because any game targeted at someone who insists they NEED to play one of the *most powerful warriors in the universe*, and they NEED to do it RIGHT AWAY without any effort whatsoever is scarcely going to entertain people that prefer to actually challenge themselves.
Thankfully, it sounds like THQ has the right idea- Let people earn the right to be awesome, so that being awesome actually feels awesome, and getting there is actually a satisfying experience.
..And as long as we’re talking about Star Wars? I’m going to just go ahead and say that there was an SW game where you couldn’t play a Jedi; it was called Galaxies, and Sony completely shot it in the gut trying to please people like you.

[Teleku]

..And as long as we’re talking about Star Wars? I’m going to just go ahead and say that there was an SW game where you couldn’t play a Jedi; it was called Galaxies, and Sony completely shot it in the gut trying to please people like you.

This is actually what I thought the most hilarious part of that rant was.

[IainC]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

[Fordel]

I like how the game looks visually at least, looks just like the miniatures. Very cool.

[Ingmar]

Really the only thing I care about or want to know is, can I wear a commissar hat, yes/no?

[Modern Angel]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

YES! Exactly! Even ignoring the weirdness that a guy is making his main selling point "just like WoW" there's nothing about HIS game, just how boss WoW is.

[Fordel]

Well if his game is actually as good as WoW is right now (or will be come Cata), but in the 40k setting, that honestly would be enough to really take off.


Now if his game IS actually as good as WoW, is the big question of course.




Ingmar, you just want to execute group members for raid buffs.

[ezrast]

Are you suggesting you don't?

[Ratman_tf]

And if you 'know the universe' you'd know that Space Marines are born, not developed as a class.

Most SM's are recruited, and then genetically modified. But really, no one who wants to play a SM wants to grind up to level 50 barbarian and then get recruited. They wanna grab a bolter and chainsword and get busy.

[Stabs]

The sheer volume of accidental comedy coming from these guys is quite astounding.

This is my favourite:

David Adams: The beauty of 40K is that it's a giant world, lots of space to plan, lots of systems to play around with.

You don't really know anything about the IP at all, do you Mr Adams? Nor astronomy for that matter. Did they see D Adams on his cv and think they were getting Douglas?

[Modern Angel]

I really don't think he meant world as in planet but world as in IP universe.

[Xanthippe]

Really the only thing I care about or want to know is, can I wear a commissar hat, yes/no?

The only thing I care about is, can I play a scantily-clad babe?

Oh, and crafting.

[Lantyssa]

My impression is the Sisters wore a lot of armor, too.  My question is: can play a Sister of Battle?

[Arthur_Parker]

GC 2010: Die Entwickler im Interview

Rating probably Mature, you can level up through pvp, one of the few good things to come out of WAR.  PVP levelling (and presumably some random drops) is now totally acceptable and passes by in the interview without so much as a ripple.  The main (only?) Space Marine Chapter is the Black Templars.

The Black Templars are not organised like the regular Chapters. Most of the time they fight into Fighting Companies which are formed in an ad hoc manner. The individual squads and specialists (such as Techmarines and Apothecaries) will fight side by side out of familiarity and comradeship rather than any imposed organisation.
...
Black Templar Marines also set themselves apart from standard Codex doctrine by including Neophytes in squads of fully initiated Marines to help teach them the ways of battle and the art of combat.
...
Unlike most other chapters, the Black Templars don't have a homeworld. Eschewing the idea of one they opted to live aboard their crusade fleets.

MMO's: the difference between inspiration and recycling

Vigil Games' are about to make an MMO that will probably feature the usual gameplay mechanics, because they know players accept those parts as an inevitability, they accept quests and levels in the usual way because they don't see they're identical to every other MMO, they see them as the generic concept of quests, they don't question its identicality. Developers got LAZY because of us, because we can't see this difference, but if we are able to perceive it, to perceive this shameless recycling of the exact same gameplay, then the rebellion can begin.

Maybe it's already begun.

Given the complete failure of anyone to really learn from WoW, I think the most telling comment about DMO so far has been "we have all the basic systems of the game figured out."  I'll bet the initial reaction from the beta players is going to shatter some cosy illusions on having everything figured out.

On the other issue of not being able to instantly play a Space Marine, that could be good or bad, it makes sense that you don't want players who can't aim & move properly to play super soldiers right out the of the dropship.  On the other hand, the game-wise players of today won't be keen to grind through less enjoyable play-styles, just because some ex-WoW playing dev thinks they need to earn their stripes.  Imperial Guard or whatever had better be actual fun to play, WoW level of fun even.

[Stabs]

Well part of the problem is that Space Marines have to be on a par with the other classes in the end-game. Which is contrary to the IP.

Sure, you might have to unlock them like WoW players had to unlock Death Knights but they can't be better than regular grunts in a WoW-style class-based game.

Or else you get that phenomenon that anyone who has played through 60-65 in WoW during Wrath has experienced: everyone playing DKs and DKs being better than the other classes at those levels.

I'm pretty sure they'll get this wrong. If I try this I'll try to unlock a Space Marine/Chaos Marine as fast as possible and mass murder other classes until they nerf the class. And so will every other power gamer.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm pretty sure they'll get this wrong.

Safe bet, all we can hope for is that the beta testers tell them their PVE sucks loudly and often.  WAR tried to appeal to both sides and have now shifted to focusing the majority of their efforts on improving RVR.  Balance I never see as much of a problem, they have Vehicles & Titans and Warhammer has always worked on a points system.  They clearly aren't going for world pvp, so the best we can hope for is that the scenarios change depending on who is winning or losing, as such they just need more intentionally unbalanced scenarios to help with over powered/populated sides, extra assets on the underpowered sides.  If they try to balance exact numbers & classes against each other, they will just end up with WAR's uneven population problems anyway.  I'll laugh if they do end up adding +20% exp to one faction on some servers though.

[eldaec]

Well part of the problem is that Space Marines have to be on a par with the other classes in the end-game. Which is contrary to the IP.

Humans have plenty of other classes that are at least equivalent to one space marine, so do all the other races.

[IainC]

Off the top of my head, Space Marines are approximately equivalent to Ork Nobs, Human Inquisitors, Eldar Exarchs/Warlocks, Sisters of Battle, Tau Shas'El. All of those have a fairly logical progression path from grunt to righteous kicker of arse that nicely mirrors the well established Space Marine progression from Novice to Scout to Battle Brother.

[Malakili]

Off the top of my head, Space Marines are approximately equivalent to Ork Nobs, Human Inquisitors, Eldar Exarchs/Warlocks, Sisters of Battle, Tau Shas'El. All of those have a fairly logical progression path from grunt to righteous kicker of arse that nicely mirrors the well established Space Marine progression from Novice to Scout to Battle Brother.

Rather than quibble about stuff like this, which really only bothers me a little, I'm much more inclined to just be upset about comparing a 40k game to WoW.  What, is my Space Marine/Scout/Novice/whoevencaresexactlywhatunit really going to have to do 40 levels of bullshit errand running?  If so, the game can go to hell full stop.  If there is one thing WAR taught me, its that Warhammer doesn't translate well into an MMORPG, fantasy or 40k isn't even the point.  This thing should've been a shooter from the beginning, or it should've worked around some sort of squad mechanic like you DoW2, except each player controls one squad or something.  Its just going to end up being a run of the mill MMORPG with a 40k skin, thats the problem here, the rest is just idle grumpiness about lore.  If all signs pointed to absolutely fantastic gameplay, you'd barely hear a peep about whether or not there was a clear progression for a Space Marine, or Warlock, or anything else. 

Its not so much the progression in and of itself that has people up in arms, its the assumption that in order to go from Novice to Space Marine, you are going to have to do the 40k equivalent of delivering X to NPC Y, killing 20 tyranids (or collcting 20 tyranid adrenal glands!), to get there.

[eldaec]

How do you imagine playing as a Novice will be different to playing as a space marine?

It won't be different at all, this is just how they are planning to express levels.

And if you don't want levels shitting up your MMOG then man up and play EVE.

[Threash]

What, is my Space Marine/Scout/Novice/whoevencaresexactlywhatunit really going to have to do 40 levels of bullshit errand running?  If so, the genre can go to hell full stop. 

FIFY, also saved myself a lenghty post.

[Rendakor]

ITT: people posting in an MMO forum who hate MMOs.

[eldaec]

ITT: people posting in an MMO forum who hate are bored of MMOs WoW/EQ.

[Malakili]

How do you imagine playing as a Novice will be different to playing as a space marine?

It won't be different at all, this is just how they are planning to express levels.

And if you don't want levels shitting up your MMOG then man up and play EVE.

Well, for instance, scouts and space marines have different armor and weapon loadouts available to them according to lore.  I think people are going to want their iconic space marine armor from the get go, and not have to go through 1/2 the game wearing "mail" before they can upgrade to "plate"

[Arthur_Parker]

ITT: people posting in an MMO forum who hate MMOs.

Is anyone actually looking forward to the PVE in DMO?

[Rendakor]

I'd play WoW in space. I'd even play WAR in Space if it didn't have an awful leveling grind.

[Stabs]

I'd play WoW in space. I'd even play WAR in Space if it didn't have an awful leveling grind.

Try Allods?

As for Arthur's question about PvE surely just about all fighting in the genre is against other soldiers (using the term very loosely). So basically it's like shooting ork players except they're AI-controlled and weak. No, not especially looking forward to that but I'll probably have fun testing new weapons.

If we have to shoot rats* and bears I'm not playing.

*Except Skaven. Skaven are awesome.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'd play WoW in space. I'd even play WAR in Space if it didn't have an awful leveling grind.

I think that levelling in WoW just serves to give players enough time to adjust to their newly earned class abilities, while they enjoy the good bit of the game (pre cap).  Levelling in pretty much every other game is just a grind to get to the supposed good bits, a major problem of which is that if someone is happy to let new players be bored, then just how good is their judgement really going to be on what is later "fun".

[UnSub]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

I'm taking that to mean, "We're two plus years out and I've got nothing to say about W40K:DM because everything might change, but management thinks we should be doing press now. Hmm, what do I talk about?".

[Malakili]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

I'm taking that to mean, "We're two plus years out and I've got nothing to say about W40K:DM because everything might change, but management thinks we should be doing press now. Hmm, what do I talk about?".

While this may be true, it still isn't helping their cause very much.

[Stabs]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

I'm taking that to mean, "We're two plus years out and I've got nothing to say about W40K:DM because everything might change, but management thinks we should be doing press now. Hmm, what do I talk about?".

If we take WAR and AOC and Alganon and Allods and RoM to be ample proof that borrowing heavily from WoW then implementing it with more bugs, lower budget and a handful of mildly innovative features is a recipe for disappointing players then what he said is probably the worse possible PR line he could have come up with. Compare and contrast with the publicity for Heroes of Telara or Guild Wars 2.

It's not just 40K but SWTOR as well has devs saying our game will be rather like WoW. It astounds me. Even if it is like WoW emphasise the differences to make it sound innovative exciting and interesting for god's sake. "Hi, I have a new MMO. It's going to be like the game you're all bored of but with more bugs". Do these guys listen to themselves speak?

[Ghambit]

Ummm, as much as I hate DMO's design, was there anyone else here besides me who was pissed that Blizzard chose Warcraft (essentially ancient Warhammer) instead of 40k as their IP for WoW?
I remember that moment distinctly whilst playing E&B... guildie told me about this awesome new game called "World of Warcraft."  I was all like, "wtf kinda dumbass uses Warcraft instead of 40k?"

So, realizing this today, I'm now having an ethical dilemma.  Yah, I shat on this design but the reality is they're pretty much trying to give me what I originally wanted some 10 yrs. ago.
Now that we've had our collective fill of this design though, no one cares for it anymore.

In the end, they either should've released this game 5+ years ago or should've made the design some sort of lightweight PS or WW2O shooter or squad-based game like G&H... which was essentially DoW: Online, only using mythological fantasy.

[UnSub]

I posted a little bit about this. I mentioned the Space Marine thing in passing but really I was more baffled that the THQ guy seems to spend most of his face time with the press talking up WoW.

I'm taking that to mean, "We're two plus years out and I've got nothing to say about W40K:DM because everything might change, but management thinks we should be doing press now. Hmm, what do I talk about?".

While this may be true, it still isn't helping their cause very much.

I agree - they are launching their marketing too early. They really need to start up marketing at the earliest 12 months ahead of time when they've actually got something to say. Now Vigil have to fill 2+ years with updates about their progress or look like the game is vapourware.

[bhodi]

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

[Surlyboi]

And if you don't want levels shitting up your MMOG then man up and play EVE.

Or hop on the SWGemu.