The Thrill Is Gone

[robusticus]

Exploring? You must be joking. Any middling popular MMO will have maps and content databases soon after launch. Getting drawn into a "hide the content" match with the players is just a losing proposition. There's a lot more of them! and if you succeed then you've got content so concealed and randomized only a small fraction of the player base ever experiences it. That's just not a good use of developer dollars.

Hide the content is obviously not gonna work.  But imagine a game with only 1 quest, broken in thirds with sandbox economy in between.  You might think it was goofy, and it probably was, but it was a huge hit.  And it actually is WoW's ancestor by 5 generations and a couple of sequels, bred with those strong EQ genes that will eventually die off.  Just bummed it'll be another 5 years when the shit was stale 5 years ago.

[DLRiley]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

Farmville is very free.

[Setanta]

When you get pst the fact that Guild Wars isn't WoW, it has possibly the best PvP experience in the MMO worlds. Blizzard copied the Arena setup of GW yet got it wrong, a rarity for Blizzard. Of the MMOs I'd rate GW and Eve as possibly the best with WoW a not-so-close 4th after LotRO. I'd like to see GW2 have open PvP, not just instanced and not the Aion rubbish.

[Mrbloodworth]

Mrbloodworth - is wider than he is tall.

That would be one hell of a width, i'm 6.1. 

[Draegan]

I always want to play Guild Wars, not having played it since it came out (for more than an afternoon), but I can never get around to it and I miss when everything is sold on steam for cheap.

[Redgiant]

I still say LOTRO has more going for it for all its side advancements than any other MMO out there. Really, combat isn't everything. I mean, did you know they almost have a complete farming game now? Game is wider than it is tall.

This. LOTRO has a some interesting quest goals that have nothing to do with fighting. Take the postal runs, where you have to deliver mail on time and avoid various others. Or the horse race to get your steed. Or exploring out-of-the-way parts of zones and monuments. They have the times down to a science so you have to shave some off by figuring out one or more tricks or shortcuts.

Traits, deeds accumulation are linked to stat bufs you can mix and match, which is a lot more motivation than just gettign a title (which they have plenty of too).

They just seem to have more variety of "quest types" than most games.

And I find the scope of Middle Earth to be jaw-dropping even at this stage with Mirkwood. If you have not played LOTRO or seen Moria yet, you will not fucking believe how far they took it. In most games, it would be a continent.

[UnSub]

I don't understand why Mythic did not simply make DAOC v.2, and Cryptic did not make COH v.2 - instead we get Warhammer and Champs Online. 

I guess for the same reason UO v.2 never got made?

Which I still cannot fathom.

As pointed out, some people see ChampO as CoH 2. Personally I see them as different games, but Cryptic was criticised for not taking ChampO far enough away from CoH/V.

As for why devs don't just build MMO sequels:

1) Because they've just spent 5+ years being told by players everything they did was wrong. Everything. And in often contradictory ways e.g. Assassins are both overpowered and underpowered - plz fix. And they now have a different dev team, with the original development team often wandering off to start their own MMO studio / join someone else's, so the lessons learned during development are scattered (and maybe even outdated). 

2) Because they remember all the stuff they wanted to put into that first title but didn't have the time to. But now they know better, so let's add in a lot more systems that sound good on paper but create a whole raft of new problems.

3) WoW plus another 4 or so years of advancement in the MMO market (assuming at least two for MMO development).

4) Because the 'good' MMOs are often happy accidents. No-one at Blizzard set out to make a MMO that had 11.5m players spread all over the world - they thought they might get lucky with 1m players or so. Sometimes it is a whole heap of little design mistakes that actually end up in making the game better (CoH/V, perhaps DAoC). Also, game developers have typically shown themselves to have poor judgement of how players will act in-game, so who they design for isn't usually who ends up playing.

The history of MMO sequels is that MMO v2 will not be what the people who played MMO v1 want. That can work, assuming that MMO v2 can bring in a whole new set of players to the game.

[Kageru]

Cryptic was had also sold CoH to fund development of champions which forced their design away from CoH frameworks somewhat. Though their desire to have a console friendly action RPG was another element. Ultimately CO is not a good example of MMO design because their business model (Pump and dump) is intrinsically opposed to quality games.

The best example of second system effect would have to be EQ2. The dominant MMO of the time leading to a sequel carefully designed to fix all the perceived design holes of the original that somehow lost the "fun" along the way.

[Nebu]

I think we need to keep in mind that EQ was about as fun, game-wise, as smashing yourself in the nuts with a hammer.  What made EQ "fun" was the novelty coupled to the community, not the game mechanics.  EQ2 was a sound improvement over EQ in gameplay but blew it in terms of the graphics and a lack of polish and/or innovation.

[Kageru]

EQ was considered by many to be more fun than EQ2. Though both got stomped on by Blizzard.

I know my EQ guild of about 100 gamers (hey, 80 person raids remember!) was horrified by what they'd done to it. Though the question of "was EQ actually fun?" other than novelty and nostalgia is an interesting question. I can't really remember though I still think that early EQ had a sense of "place" because the designers were free to just implement whatever vision they had. Later EQ and subsequent game development was more controlled in terms of the expected return from a developer hour. I mean some of the EQ dungeons were (like Dalnir) were a hopeless use of resources since most players would never use it, had unacceptable risks (trains, fall through pits) and threat (XP and corpse loss) that no sane designer would dare release these days. I mean I really respect what Blizzard did with WoW but like most modern MMO's it's a carefully controlled theme park ride rather than a world. Which is no doubt the correct call, I'm sure they gather a lot of metrics on what the "average" player actually means and it is terrifying, but it's also a shame.

[Malakili]

"Was it fun" is the wrong question to be asking, as is "is it fun" is the wrong question to be asking about new games.  The question is "Was/Is it enjoyable?" that matters.  Then you can ask why it was enjoyable if it was.  Fun is an all to used catchall term that I view as basically meaningless, especially in this context.

[Goreschach]

I think entertaining is a better word than enjoyable.

[Malakili]

I think entertaining is a better word than enjoyable.

I don't, for instance, I find mining in EVE to be enjoyable, but not particularly entertaining.

[Sheepherder]

Dudes, trim the neckbeard back a little.  Fun, enjoyable, and entertaining mean the same thing.  There is no distinction there.  The word you want is exciting, which entails a sense of immediacy or impending portentous events.

[Rasix]

EQ was considered by many to be more fun than EQ2. Though both got stomped on by Blizzard.

I know my EQ guild of about 100 gamers (hey, 80 person raids remember!) was horrified by what they'd done to it. Though the question of "was EQ actually fun?" other than novelty and nostalgia is an interesting question. I can't really remember though I still think that early EQ had a sense of "place" because the designers were free to just implement whatever vision they had. Later EQ and subsequent game development was more controlled in terms of the expected return from a developer hour. I mean some of the EQ dungeons were (like Dalnir) were a hopeless use of resources since most players would never use it, had unacceptable risks (trains, fall through pits) and threat (XP and corpse loss) that no sane designer would dare release these days. I mean I really respect what Blizzard did with WoW but like most modern MMO's it's a carefully controlled theme park ride rather than a world. Which is no doubt the correct call, I'm sure they gather a lot of metrics on what the "average" player actually means and it is terrifying, but it's also a shame.

Cue EQ love-in.  If I see a Qeynos to Freeport story, I'm going to start shooting people.

[Musashi]

[Dtrain]

You never forget the MMO that popped your cherry. For those of you who wax poetic around here about EQ, maybe you blew UO behind the roller rink, but it was EQ that brought the Zimas over when your parents left town.

[Draegan]

Sojourn > EQ

I still remember having to make sure my alignment stayed Good or higher so my +25HP Scarlet Rings didn't zap off me, or the late night raids into the Fire Plane and killing Tiamat.

[01101010]

I am kinda glad I was in a cocaine and MDMA haze while EQ was breaking ground. Planetside was my first "MMO" with FFXI being my first MMORPG. I stopped chasing the dragon soon after.

[Sky]

I used to really enjoy camping items in EQ. I used to hang out at my buddy's house and smoke a ton of pot, drink a few beers, listen to some good music and shoot the shit while my necro and his wizard sat around waiting for the area of lower guk to respawn on a half hour (!) timer.

But really, it was more about everything but EQ that made it fun.

[robusticus]

Strong genes like the HIV.

Didn't we order a console fighting game MMO years ago?  What's the delay?  Or even a Tony Hawk MMO. 

The accessibility thing's done already.  Good job on winning the race to the bottom.

We'll see two mainstream electric cars before this video game industry pulls its head out of its ass.  If it ever does.  I think two major players might need to go belly up first and that's an awful lot o market cap.

[Lantyssa]

Cue EQ love-in.  If I see a Qeynos to Freeport story, I'm going to start shooting people.

Tempting, but I don't know enough about EQ to fake it.

[Sky]

Hope the new guy doesn't find his meds any time soon.

[Ollie]

Cue EQ love-in.  If I see a Qeynos to Freeport story, I'm going to start shooting people.

Tempting, but I don't know enough about EQ to fake it.

I do, but I'm trying this new homeopathic thing where I learn to let go of the past, and build towards a bright, positive future. Apparently it should start working any minute now. 

Speaking of EQ, sometimes it's nice to reminisce about the days when just the thought of playing with dozens of concurrent users from around the world was mind-boggling, never mind the fact that the games themselves were sadistic torture devices. It's understandable to feel nostalgia, cathartic to shed a few tears, and healthy to move on – too bad there's just so very little to move on to. I think it was Haemish who said that MMOG developers couldn't break new ground with a truck full of dynamite, and on most days it sure seems like he was right.

Oh, and regarding the new guy: His shorthand is a tad cryptic, but as a non-native speaker, I shouldn't judge. People in glass houses and all that.

[Draegan]

schild needs to get his company to remake Flash Tele-Arena.  wtf schild?

[Slayerik]

Speaking of EQ, sometimes it's nice to reminisce about the days when just the thought of playing with dozens of concurrent users from around the world was mind-boggling, never mind the fact that the games themselves were sadistic torture devices. It's understandable to feel nostalgia, cathartic to shed a few tears, and healthy to move on – too bad there's just so very little to move on to. I think it was Haemish who said that MMOG developers couldn't break new ground with a truck full of dynamite, and on most days it sure seems like he was right.

I think this is it. My brother and I would play Ultima 7 and say 'now how cool would this be if -friend living in Chicago- could play with us!' I remember beta testing Ultima Online practically in awe of the possibilities. I played these games not caring about bugs, being ganked, or uber loots. I just wanted to see the endgame and fight people.

Now I look back well over a decade later and the mainstream, successful MMO doesn't even have fucking housing. I think I'm just going to be permanently bitter that the EQ spawn made it to the big leagues, and the PVP sandbox died. OoooOoO OooOoOO. To be fair, Eve is the spawn of UO...but it has so many holes, it is a shame. Sucks when your horse breaks a leg. Here's to me hoping for a fantasy sandbox territorial conquest MMO, with item looting.

[Mrbloodworth]

Pardon me for assuming here, but I bet you don't have the time to play the game you describe. Just sayin, I definitely don't.

[LK]

I'm also guessing he was one of the wolves and not one of the sheep.

[Slayerik]

I'm also guessing he was one of the wolves and not one of the sheep.

Not trying to start up the old UO thing, but I was an Anti-PK. I'd kill greys and shit though. I never had a red that didn't get that way from killing a red's blue healer. We had a guild of guys that worked on training cool people to help us fight the guys. Used ICQ for comms, and eventually Roger Wilco.

And Blood you are probably right, though one thing us old school MMO'ers can do is make absolutely efficient use of our time. We've grinded so much, we just haul ass from A to B.

[Malakili]

Pardon me for assuming here, but I bet you don't have the time to play the game you describe. Just sayin, I definitely don't.

This is one of those things that a discussion like this always comes back to.  Now, avoiding the question of whether or not any of us, specifically, have the time to play a game like this, the question remains important.   I think a lot of us hold a secret (or not so secret) desire to check out of real life and be able to live in a fantasy (generic use of the term here, not necessarily high fantasy swords + sorcery) world.   We love the idea of a video game that emulates this, but its sort of an ideal game for an ideal time when we could devote ourselves to it.   When it comes down to it, being able to spend 10 hours in a fantasy world per day, despite the ideal, is just plain not as good a choice as being able to log on to WoW, queue up for a dungeon, and be done 30 minutes later.

Thats, I think, why I like something like World War 2 Online, actually.  Its persistent, the game world is constantly changing in terms of who owns what towns, and so and so forth.  However, I can still log on and play for anywhere 15 minutes and just contribute to defending any given town for few minutes, or I can spend all afternoon working on some major operation that takes lots of planning, getting into position, and so forth.   The fact that there aren't player levels, loot, etc,  plays a big part of this.   Or, to put it another way, I think the way to reconcile these two things is MMO games, but not MMORPG games.

[Mrbloodworth]

I wasn't trying to derail, just saying for myself, I get all reminiscent about the times I spent hours on SWG , or 10 hours on PS. Then I stand up, and remember I don't have time for that anymore.

You won't believe how much my stack of games I want to play is stacking up right now next to my PS3 and computer, what with all my side projects. I sometimes try to play a game, then think, "I could be making something right now".

Anyway, yeah, time. It's a bitch.

[Rasix]

I'm also guessing he was one of the wolves and not one of the sheep.

Not trying to start up the old UO thing, but I was an Anti-PK. I'd kill greys and shit though.

Doesn't make you less of a wolf.  My guild did the same thing for a while, but in a time without grays.  So instead we determined who was gray to us.  Thief? Kill him.  Enemy guild? Kill him.  Suspected PK or PK alt? Kill him.  Guy that looked at me sideways or gave me lip? KEEEEL HEEEM.  Wolves weren't just reds.  

Pretty soon we just dropped the charade, switched servers when they first added new ones, and killed the shit out of everyone.  Turned the decision tree into a binary option.

I'd absolutely love for WoW to put in some damn housing.  LOTRO and EQ2 just don't do it for me.

[Sky]

Pardon me for assuming here, but I bet you don't have the time to play the game you describe. Just sayin, I definitely don't.

This is why I'm glad I was there for UO from beta through launch. It won't happen like that again, and if it did, I won't be there.

Hell, I look at my Steam library and get depressed at my backlog of really good games.

[Sky]

Doesn't make you less of a wolf.  My guild did the same thing for a while, but in a time without grays.  So instead we determined who was gray to us.  Thief? Kill him.  Enemy guild? Kill him.  Suspected PK or PK alt? Kill him.  Guy that looked at me sideways or gave me lip? KEEEEL HEEEM.  Wolves weren't just reds. 

Pretty soon we just dropped the charade, switched servers when they first added new ones, and killed the shit out of everyone.  Turned the decision tree into a binary option.

Noto-killers were worse than honest pk. More exploiter (hey, it's within the rules..) than outright pvp players. The biggest douchebags had the highest rep because they'd game the system, where honest red pks were usually fun guys to hang out with...even if they'd kill you at the drop of the hat. Then again, I played a skilled thief, and most thieves were shitty bank or gank thieves.

[Dtrain]

Here's to me hoping for a fantasy sandbox territorial conquest MMO, with item looting.

Like Shadowbane?

UO had it's share of progeny - they just happened to be a little sickly. EQ had it's share of dud imitators before Blizzard came along and got it right. They were really the only games to use as reference back then, hence the clear lineage. But that's not to get your hopes up.

I don't anticipate anything that we will consider to be "new and exciting" appearing on the scene for quite some time. Like it or not, WoW is the model that is going to be used, even as it begins to wane in popularity. The success of WoW compared to it's competitors is so much more pronounced than the situation before it's launch, so if anything there is going to be even less innovation in mass market MMO titles.