The Thrill Is Gone

[Slayerik]

What happened to the magic that was MMORPGs? I used to be excited to hear about new games coming out. I used to apply for beta's. This could not be further from how I currently view these games. There is no innovation. I remember playing Subspace and being completely addicted to it. 80 guys, all on the same map trying to kill each other? Fucking awesome. That game had no persistence, it reset your points after two weeks and you started over...but it was fun at its core. It took skill and teamwork. You could even lob bombs and get lucky, or fly the noob ship Terrier with double guns. The game was pretty much Asteroids...on, well, roids. And it kicked ass.

I was first in my city probably to have cable modem. I beta tested every damn game I could.

I was part of Neocron outpost battles. UO dread days. SB.exe sieges. Planetside all out war. EvE small gang actions/suicide ganks. I may be looking back with rose tinted glasses but these were my best experiences in any MMOs I have played. I played Wow for like 2+ years I frankly can't look back at my raiding as fun, though accomplishing shit like your first Nyx kill or UBRS run was pretty cool....as well as some of the massive Tarren Mill battles.

Frankly, I got pissed when I saw that Youtube link Ollie posted. I wasn't even looking forward to SWTOR that much, and now I really could give two shits. I thought, from the bars, that it was some crappy version of WoW.

WoW is the worst thing to have happened to our genre. Hell, I played it and was fairly obsessed with it. And now I'm bored of it. And now developers want to copy the same shit we are already bored of. It's all gear obsession, the problem is once you realize that the next game that you go to that is all about gear obsession is gonna be less fun. The examples above all had a unique hook. They weren't just "Level Up so you can get matching gear and raid!"

Innovate, motherfuckers, innovate. I come from Tandy 1000 and Commodore 64 times. You couldn't hide not being fun with a carrot on a stick. You had to make a FUN game. If you are going to steal, steal from the old school and add your twist.

Make an awesome Mechwarrior MMO

Make Red Baron fucking Online.

Make Syndicate Online

Make something besides WoW 0.91


or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

[Ingmar]

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

Sounds like this to me.

EDIT: You're primarily a PVP player, right? The innovation for you is all over in the FPS world. The number of people who want a PVP-centric MMO is really fairly low compared to the overall market, so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that it isn't being emphasized.

[Malakili]

Planetside 2, the dream is still alive 

[Slayerik]

Maybe.

Innovation in FPS? You are joking right? I can destroy some buildings now, holy shit!!! No, it's the same crap.

Games like Mechwarrior Online could have very cool PVE missions. This isn't necessarily about PVP vrs. PVE, I just want something that does reek of "The money hats said make it like WoW"

[Stormwaltz]

Give me $100 million with no need to pay it back and no publisher or investor meddling.

I will return a few years later with a universe to satiate desires both subtle and gross.

EDIT: And probably a big swack of your money back. But it's best to budget conservatively.

[Slayerik]

Give me $100 million with no need to pay it back and no publisher or investor meddling.

I will return a few years later with a universe to satiate desires both subtle and gross.

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs? Yes, I know there is inflation but I find that 100 million line is a lame excuse. Guess you need a talented, motivated team with the same goals in mind with a good salesman up front.

[Nija]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

[Cyrrex]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

Considering that most of the MMOs come from giant corporations now, that $100m is probably more likely worth $10m.  So it's inflation and massive, systematic inefficiency.

[Stormwaltz]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground?

Well, I edited it post-fact. My pet project won't have the same costs as, say, Aion.

IMO, costs have mushroomed because of the increasing consumer demand for audiovisual quality. Mass Effect 1 cost a lot more than previous BW games, because of the insane amount of detailed art it consumed (not just models and textures, but sound effects, cutscenes, and animations - nearly every line of dialogue in the game was hand-tweaked), not to mention the ridiculous amount of VO that had to be contracted and recorded. That's also why ME devoured gigs and gigs of HD space.

The days when your could be a success with UO's sprites or EQ's 16-poly models is long gone, my friend.

[Ingmar]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

Considering that most of the MMOs come from giant corporations now, that $100m is probably more likely worth $10m.  So it's inflation and massive, systematic inefficiency.

Good luck paying an 80-100 person team for 5 years with your $10 million. And then you need servers, and hosting, a rock-solid ISP, you have to license or design an engine, market the thing, and do 50 other things I didn't mention.

I mean yes, if you're setting out to make some small niche game then you don't need $100 million, but anything with even a pretension of being a 'name' game is going to need a lot of money.

[Threash]

I was part of Neocron outpost battles. UO dread days. SB.exe sieges. Planetside all out war. EvE small gang actions/suicide ganks. I may be looking back with rose tinted glasses but these were my best experiences in any MMOs I have played.

No, most people just decided those things sucked.  There are a whole lot more people out there who would take your exact list and call it the absolutely worst times they've ever had in any MMO ever.  The only one of those i didn't experience was Neocron and i can honestly say i cannot imagine how someone can look back at those and go MOAR! and i fucking love pvp.  Some people get their jollies by having nails rammed into their nuts, most of them are at least smart enough to understand why the rest of us might not be so keen to experience it.

[Dtrain]

Did you play EQ? If so, you could have had the joy of feeling what you are several years earlier.

But don't worry, the apathy gets worse. Lately I feel the problem is not with MMOs, but with the sorry state of PC gaming in general. I remember fondly when PC games were these weighty, mature affairs, but that sort of thing doesn't play well with the console loving masses that seem to drive the industry's direction these days. Any serious title is released on as many platforms as possible, so those promising PC releases are hobbled by the console tie ins. So far the paradigm shifting console MMO has not appeared, though when it does, I doubt it will satisfy you or I. And in the mean time, those companies that lust after monthly subs (and have the capital to finish an MMO,) are not going to do anything but play it safe and copy previous successes.

I don't even mind that much anymore. I keep my ear to the ground looking for new prospects, I play what I like, and my tastes have had to adapt a little to what is available. I am hopeful something good will come down the pipe, but I no longer live the hype, and I view every promise with extreme scepticism. All forms of media evolve and change over time, and you often find those who prefer things 'the way they were.' My dad was the same way with the movies he enjoyed in his day.

Welcome to old age, gramps.

[Soln]

FWIW I've enjoyed the EMU's that are out there.  For SWG, EQ, ole UO shards -- they have at least 50+ people playing prime time and there's something going on.

Now if we could make one for DAoC without ToA...

[Signe]

I'll do it for 10 million.  Srsly.  Just give me the money.

[Xanthippe]

FWIW I've enjoyed the EMU's that are out there.  For SWG, EQ, ole UO shards -- they have at least 50+ people playing prime time and there's something going on.

Now if we could make one for DAoC without ToA...

Isn't that what the classic server is?  I haven't played it since ToA, but I did hear about it.

I wouldn't mind a WoW clone, provided that it actually duplicated the things that make WoW worth playing, but the problem is, the other MMOs don't seem to understand what it is that Blizzard does right.

[Draegan]

The genre is now over a decade old.  These games haven't tried anything new, but have refined what's out there.  We're still in the first generation.  WOW hasn't done anything to the genre.  WOW has slowly gone from a more friendly EQ game to a very complex flash game for moms and dads and their kids.

I'm interested if Telara or GW2 will bring us something different.

[tgr]

Frankly, I got pissed when I saw that Youtube link Ollie posted. I wasn't even looking forward to SWTOR that much, and now I really could give two shits. I thought, from the bars, that it was some crappy version of WoW.

What I thought when I saw the clip was "wow, they've seemingly taken the step back away from uncanny valley", and actually had to tip my hat to them for their design choice.

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

Probably.

[Sheepherder]

WOW hasn't done anything to the genre.

Thanks for getting that first "Hurf durf I'm an idiot" icebreaker post out of the way.

[LK]

Stop playing MMOs and get back to competitive games like League of Legends and other focused PvP games. It'll be healthy when you don't have to run around a game world, have a tight, focused experience designed for PvP, and can jump right into the action.

[NiX]

Thanks for getting that first "Hurf durf I'm an idiot" icebreaker post out of the way.

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

WoW did some new things, but they were tiny. For the most part, as someone else pointed out here and many people have pointed out across the internet, they refined an old formula to near perfection. The most they've done is created a much larger market for MMOs. Unfortunately that market is now dominated by companies trying to one up WoW and not with new ideas.

[LK]

Thanks for getting that first "Hurf durf I'm an idiot" icebreaker post out of the way.

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

WoW did some new things, but they were tiny. For the most part, as someone else pointed out here and many people have pointed out across the internet, they refined an old formula to near perfection. The most they've done is created a much larger market for MMOs. Unfortunately that market is now dominated by companies trying to one up WoW and not with new ideas.

Moreover, the direction the market is going trends towards social networking, free-to-play, and other models that make MMOs appear obsolete if they *aren't* like WoW. And by "like WoW" I mean in terms of blockbuster scale and content delivery, which given the burnout for the genre felt by most who have played WoW throughly, means that you have to be something special to get them to sign up for your game and not have PTSD of what bothered them about WoW.

[Arthur_Parker]

There is no innovation.

It's the old, world or game discussion, everyone is trying to recreate "the WoW" as it's the best game.   Innovation is dangerous as the first thing players do with a new idea is try to grief each other over the head with it.  Game design is stuck on a narrow path with all the risky turnings blocked off.  Sometimes I'd just like to play a fantasy game, avoid the monsters for a night and spend all evening playing cards with other players in a tavern.  The correct "accepted" version of game design would make card cheating, pick pocketing, propositioning a bar maid, bar fights (apart from scripted encounters), even harsh language, all impossible.  I'd be bored in an hour.

I'd like to see a fantasy novel written abiding by game "design" rules, it would be the blandest thing ever.  As for the "but it must be done a certain way argument", yeah I understand playing it safe because of the money involved, but consider for the "most popular" argument, running with the same analogy.

In North America, romance novels are the most popular genre in modern literature, comprising almost 55% of all paperback books sold in 2004

[Numtini]

The genre is getting old and a bit dull. But really, I think it's that it's been 3 years since we had a game that was basically playable and fun. That was LOTRO, which wasn't all that, but compared to Champ or STO or War or STO, it was a Picasso.

The only bright spot recently I think was Free Realms. I can see something similar geared towards adults as a decently successful EQ3 or something.

[Sheepherder]

WoW did some new things, but they were tiny.

You know, you're right.  It just took me a little while spawn camping the Lich King so I could mail a Frostmourne to my alt, only to die and get slapped with a three hour corpse run, because I have a hard time handling the shitty UI to realize it.

Seriously dude, if that doesn't qualify as "big", what does?  Injecting dopamine straight into your brain?

[Raguel]

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

I'm the president of that club. The last mmorpg that I was really excited for (and applied to beta test) was Seed. 

[Merusk]

I'll do it for 10 million.  Srsly.  Just give me the money.

If I didn't know for a fact your husband would beat me with a ban stick I'd have a new sig quote right now. Thanks for the chuckle.


The genre isn't old, it's us.  You've been doing the same thing, having the same conversations, dreaming the same dreams for over a decade now.  13 years if you started in UO.  Think on that for just a small moment of your time.  Perhaps it's time to enjoy the games as they are or simply move on.  The genre left you behind a long time ago.

[Cyrrex]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

Considering that most of the MMOs come from giant corporations now, that $100m is probably more likely worth $10m.  So it's inflation and massive, systematic inefficiency.

Good luck paying an 80-100 person team for 5 years with your $10 million. And then you need servers, and hosting, a rock-solid ISP, you have to license or design an engine, market the thing, and do 50 other things I didn't mention.

I mean yes, if you're setting out to make some small niche game then you don't need $100 million, but anything with even a pretension of being a 'name' game is going to need a lot of money.

Erm, yeah, that's kind of what I meant.  So-called triple A titles are made by ginormous companies who "need" to hire tons of people and take years and years.  It doesn't automatically make your game better (you could easily argue that it does a better job of limiting its potential), but it does make it cost a fortune.  In '97, that equivalent to a 100m today would go waaaaay farther.  That's all I'm saying.

[Teleku]

If you try to make an MMO on the budget that UO and EQ did, you'd just simply make a game that looks like EQ and UO, with the same capabilities.  People want more now (better graphics, sound, physics, ect), which takes more money.  They might not make a fun game, but I'll guarantee nobody with a shoe string budget is going to be able to make an awesome, innovative working MMO.  Every idea I can think of would require a lot of man hours.  If somebody does create a new game changer MMO, its going to come from a "100 million" development house, not the indie makers.

[Ingmar]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

Considering that most of the MMOs come from giant corporations now, that $100m is probably more likely worth $10m.  So it's inflation and massive, systematic inefficiency.

Good luck paying an 80-100 person team for 5 years with your $10 million. And then you need servers, and hosting, a rock-solid ISP, you have to license or design an engine, market the thing, and do 50 other things I didn't mention.

I mean yes, if you're setting out to make some small niche game then you don't need $100 million, but anything with even a pretension of being a 'name' game is going to need a lot of money.

Erm, yeah, that's kind of what I meant.  So-called triple A titles are made by ginormous companies who "need" to hire tons of people and take years and years.  It doesn't automatically make your game better (you could easily argue that it does a better job of limiting its potential), but it does make it cost a fortune.  In '97, that equivalent to a 100m today would go waaaaay farther.  That's all I'm saying.

Has there ever been an MMO worth playing that *didn't* take 5-ish years to make? Beyond that first generation, at least?

[waffel]

If somebody does create a new game changer MMO, its going to come from a "100 million" development house, not the indie makers.

I'm sure initially a game changing MMO will be created by a small indie studio. However, the idea won't be fleshed out and perfected until a big studio copies it, leaving the indie studio in the dust.

Fact is, nobody wants to support a niche design/indie studio trying something different right now. For whatever reason, going big and failing (warhammer online) is a much better proposition than going small and being unpopular.

And going back to the 'good ol days' never worked. I tried it with DAoC multiple times. I honestly wish I never had. Now my recent memories of the game are tainted by the crappy experience I had a year ago, not really looked upon with a warm fuzz like the amazing experiences I had 7+ years ago

[Cyrrex]

Does an MMO truly need 100 million? How did EQ and UO get off the ground? Anyone know production costs?

Looking at inflation figures I can tell you that $100M in 2009 is equal to $73.5M in '97, so take that into account as well.

Considering that most of the MMOs come from giant corporations now, that $100m is probably more likely worth $10m.  So it's inflation and massive, systematic inefficiency.

Good luck paying an 80-100 person team for 5 years with your $10 million. And then you need servers, and hosting, a rock-solid ISP, you have to license or design an engine, market the thing, and do 50 other things I didn't mention.

I mean yes, if you're setting out to make some small niche game then you don't need $100 million, but anything with even a pretension of being a 'name' game is going to need a lot of money.

Erm, yeah, that's kind of what I meant.  So-called triple A titles are made by ginormous companies who "need" to hire tons of people and take years and years.  It doesn't automatically make your game better (you could easily argue that it does a better job of limiting its potential), but it does make it cost a fortune.  In '97, that equivalent to a 100m today would go waaaaay farther.  That's all I'm saying.

Has there ever been an MMO worth playing that *didn't* take 5-ish years to make? Beyond that first generation, at least?

Dude, stop being difficult just for the sake of it.  No MMO really costs 100 million.  A huge portion of that is pure waste.  THAT IS WHAT BIG COMPANIES DO.

[Engels]

Slayerik, 2001 called, it wants its rant back  

Seriously, MMOs are like sex. At first when you're a teen, its like all, "OMG PENIS IN VAGINA". 20 years later, you've boned every ho on the block; they take ages to orgasm and you're just content to spank the meat in CoD4 for 20 minutes.

what

[Ingmar]

It doesn't take a big company to spend $100 million dollars over 5 years, that is actually a pretty medium sized operation, maybe even small. I'm not deliberately being difficult, but I think you may not totally grasp how expensive even one employee is once you're paying for an office for him to sit in, machines for him to do his work on, a network for those machines to sit on, licensing for all the software he uses and the source control he's checking in and out of, health insurance and other benefits, etc.

Now maybe if you're doing things in an overseas sweatshop developer and using pirated dev software, things are different, but software development on levels even just a little bit above Dwarf Fortress neckbeard territory is not a cheap undertaking in the slightest.

I've seen estimates of $200 million+ for WHO, so we're talking about an operation only half the size of what produced that.

[Soln]

We moan a lot here about weaksauze design, but if providers could offer more nuanced, customizable games (i.e. rising and lowering the challenge, reward and personalization of content based on decisions/input from players) would they do it?  I doubt it.  I think we have the technology already, but people like MMO's mostly because they offer predictable, prolonged repetitive experiences.  You don't need a lot of innovation for that.

[Zzulo]

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

Sounds like this to me.

EDIT: You're primarily a PVP player, right? The innovation for you is all over in the FPS world. The number of people who want a PVP-centric MMO is really fairly low compared to the overall market, so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that it isn't being emphasized.

I don't think that's true. Aren't there more PvP servers in WoW than PvE? I think every recent "next big PvP game" been immensely popular for the first month as well.

I'd say people really want a good PvP MMO, but the only ones released have been endlessly flawed so far, so the initial player surge drops pretty quickly.

I mean what are they supposed to flock to? Darkfall? Mortal Online? Fallen Earth? A 12 year old UO? There's nothing for them out there. That's why it's kind of hard to claim that "most people" are not interested in a product that does not yet exist. (a good PvP MMO with wide range appeal)

The closest thing I can think of is EVE, but it lacks the wide-range appeal. However, as far as I know, it's one of, if not the strongest MMO in terms of active players next to WoW in the west...