The Thrill Is Gone

[Sheepherder]

Which one of these are you playing for the first time?

I haven't played an Infinity Engine game until last year.  I've got a lot of catch-up.  I probably wouldn't have bothered except, you know, them being legendary.

[Rasix]

Your sentence is a bit chronologically challenged.    Easy to find mods to make the resolutions on those a bit more bearable. 

[Musashi]

Can somebody tell me why immersion really matters?  I get pretty tired of that getting tossed around like it's a given. 

Can we define immersion first?  No, seriously.  What exactly do you mean.  That you should forget you're playing a game? That you feel compelled to act in character?  That the game world feels internally consistent?  That game mechanics are hidden enough so as to hide the mechanical side of the game?  Some combination there of?

Or are we just using it as a catchall term to mean "a game that *feels* good" which is nice, but basically utterly meaningless.

What I'm getting at is that no matter how you use it, it's still utterly meaningless since nobody really cares about it in any way.  I know there are a few people on the fringe who claim to care about it, but I don't think they do - at least if they're honest.  Also, the last thing I want is a 'let's define it' derail.  I'll define it if you can tell me why it's even remotely close to as  important as how the game works.  And before you get lost in explaining how immersion is part and parcel to the overall experience of fun one can enjoy while playing a video game, I'd like to inform you that you're speaking with someone who was really fucking good at Ms. Pac Man.

[Lantyssa]

I think you're projecting.  It's very important to me and often determines if I stick with a game for any length of time.

[tgr]

Immersion to me is when time passes much too quickly. How that arises is hard to pin down, it's much easier to pin down what breaks it. Things like controls sucking ass (hi console fpses), shitty story, characters that act weirdly or even when their facial expressions almost make sense, yet they don't.

I've been very immersed in simple games like pacman, I've been very immersed in MGS2. I've gotten immersed in the rambo 1-4 series a few times lately, whereas quite a lot of the normal "action movies" make me roll my eyes over some of the scenes.

[Fordel]

Immersion to me is when I was playing Mechwarrior or Tribes online, and instinctively ducked when a missile flew over my head in game.

[Mrbloodworth]

"One more turn" followed by "What, its 6 AM?!?!?"

[Teleku]

So in summary, everybody has a different definition of what immersion means.

[Musashi]

I think you're projecting.  It's very important to me and often determines if I stick with a game for any length of time.

Haven't you played WoW on and off for years?  Not exactly the pinnacle of immersion.  Now Vanguard had some immersion.  What's that?  You would have played Vanguard if the game didn't suck?  Ohhhhh.

Also, I totally made this thread worse.



NO ANTI ALIASING WTF?

[CharlieMopps]

I've always wondered why a company like SOE doesn't open up an EQ2 server that has player made content on it. Rent out the space like people do with TF2 servers. Charge per month for it until subs are enough to supplement its existence. And if it turns a profit, give a small percentage to those making the content. Player written maps and mods are what really drives FPS shooters on the PC, and I could the same sort of thing happening in MMOs. They just need a background scripting system ala Neverwinter nights (which I'm sure they already have) and they're off to the races.

[Khaldun]

There's a really good doctoral dissertation on immersion as a concept that was written a few years back. Basically, the author argued that immersion is not really just an idea confined to games, but an idea we've had about cultural experiences for a long time--that some culture asks you to situate yourself "inside" of the text (say, a cinematic view that puts you inside the head of a character, looking out through his eyes, or a first-person perspective of a sort of 'everyman' character in fiction) and that the idea that immersion is unique or special to games is wrong. I basically agree with this point: that immersion is a cultural technique and a mindset that we've long associated with certain kinds of cultural experiences. So the question is then really more interesting: why do we want it? And if and when we want it, what produces it?

[DLRiley]

Stop playing MMOs and get back to competitive games like League of Legends and other focused PvP games. It'll be healthy when you don't have to run around a game world, have a tight, focused experience designed for PvP, and can jump right into the action.

and discover that you actually suck at video games? I don't think so, I need my open world pvp to prove how awesome i am when there is no skill involved.

[UnSub]

MMO developers are going to have a hell of a time moving forward trying to sate the masses - those that haven't been raised on WoW have had Runescape or Club Penguin or a range of other titles to see all the basics and aren't impressed by gameplay that doesn't improve on those standards. However, there really is only so far you can go within individual sub-genres - the MMORPG, MMOFPS, MMORTS, the mini-game MMO, virtual world - to actually change them. What we are seeing is elements from the different sub-genres bleed into each other (evolution) rather than some paradigm shifting new title coming out (revolution). But MMOs are probably the main revenue future of PC games.

I guess this is why MMO gets slapped on a lot of titles these days - studios want the persistent money that comes with persistent worlds.

As for me, the thrill isn't gone - I'm on my last legs for CoH/V (GoRo is make-or-break, but it has been six years) but I still enjoy trialling a MMO and seeing what it contains.

[Sheepherder]

Easy to find mods to make the resolutions on those a bit more bearable.

Which really doesn't fix the graphics.  Or Imoen.

[Ollie]

I basically agree with this point: that immersion is a cultural technique and a mindset that we've long associated with certain kinds of cultural experiences. So the question is then really more interesting: why do we want it? And if and when we want it, what produces it?

As with any complex anthropological phenomenon, the answers are as varied as the scientific disciplines that define them.

Ask a neuroscientist, and he will talk about the biological foundation of human consciousness and how engaging in specific activity, such as gaming or reading a book, alters the way our nervous system functions on a systemic level to produce various physiological states. A cognitive psychologist will agree and go on to talk about how sensory input drives our mental processes, and how attention theory views those altered physiological states as a re-allocation of resources within the mind's cognitive architecture, which allows us to better respond to outside stimuli.

A cultural anthropologist will point out the socially shared aspect of immersion and its prevalence in art, myths and social ceremony throughout the ages. He will cite its common occurrence across various cultures as an example of how social interaction can generate strategies that enable individuals to better adapt to their surroundings. A linguist / semiotic will pipe in that all cultural phenomena possess a communicative dimension, and since human communication is dependent on assigning meaning to the world through signs and symbols, immersion can be viewed as an enhanced learning mechanism that seeks to aid us in formulating a grammar of a given situation.

Finally, a moderator will take one look at my post and say, "Not in this thread, motherfucker." 

[01101010]

I always used to calculate my immersion by how long it took my eyes to readjust to the sunlight after a run at the mall arcade.

side note: it seems they do not exist anymore either...

[Mrbloodworth]

I think you guys are over thinking it.

Immersion in games is the act of "keeping someone in the zone". Be it through visuals, game play, or story.  If you have people forgetting what time it is, you did it. if you have people with complaints about boars having panties, you missed.

[Slayerik]

I basically agree with this point: that immersion is a cultural technique and a mindset that we've long associated with certain kinds of cultural experiences. So the question is then really more interesting: why do we want it? And if and when we want it, what produces it?

words

Dude, you are too smart for this POS thread. I did, however, enjoy the analysis.

[Sky]

A spliff of strong indica goes a long way to enhancing immersion, imo. I don't get anywhere near as immersed in games as I used to.

[Bzalthek]

I basically agree with this point: that immersion is a cultural technique and a mindset that we've long associated with certain kinds of cultural experiences. So the question is then really more interesting: why do we want it? And if and when we want it, what produces it?

words

Dude, you are too smart for this POS thread. I did, however, enjoy the analysis.

Agreed, that was actually thought provoking.

[Ollie]

Dude, you are too smart for this POS thread. I did, however, enjoy the analysis.

It's not you, it's me. I got carried away by the sound of my own voice, and I apologise. Poor judgement on my part. Anyway, let's not dwell on me. This thread was about how we will all eventually wake up in a nursing home with a broken colostomy bag, or something.

[Slayerik]

A spliff of strong indica goes a long way to enhancing immersion, imo. I don't get anywhere near as immersed in games as I used to.

You just figured it out for me, Sky.

I quit smoking da herb and ever since games just aren't what they used to be! :)

[01101010]

Dude, you are too smart for this POS thread. I did, however, enjoy the analysis.

It's not you, it's me. I got carried away by the sound of my own voice, and I apologise. Poor judgement on my part. Anyway, let's not dwell on me. This thread was about how we will all eventually wake up in a nursing home with a broken colostomy bag, or something...

...and still playing WoW. 

[Signe]

I don't believe any of you have ever smoked any herb because if you had, you wouldn't all seem so weird!

[Ollie]

Weird? This is the mellowest board on the entire internet. 

...and still playing WoW. 

Looking at upcoming MMOGs and judging by how alive and well the Diku seems to be, you're most likely right. I'd laugh if it wasn't so soul-crushingly sad.

[tgr]

I don't believe any of you have ever smoked any herb because if you had, you wouldn't all seem so weird!

We're not weird, we're just peculiar.

[Bzalthek]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure "immersion" is a completely subjective thing unique to each individual.  For me, it's being able to do a thing and look back at visible progress that I consider makes a difference which becomes a higher bar to meet as that progress has less of a social impact.  Even the most banal of online tasks becomes less so when you do it with a solid group of people with whom you enjoy socializing.  And even the most kick ass progress isn't going to mean much when there's no one around to show it off to.  When I play Final Fantasy and I get the ultimate weapon for some character, that's cool and all, but it's never going to compare with finally decking your toon out with some god weapon off whatever primal deity possesses it this expansion.

[Malakili]

I think you guys are over thinking it.

Immersion in games is the act of "keeping someone in the zone". Be it through visuals, game play, or story.  If you have people forgetting what time it is, you did it. if you have people with complaints about boars having panties, you missed.

This is probably the most useful definition, if there is one.

On a similar note, I was thinking about this in the shower this morning (yea, I need to get a life, sue me), and it occured to me that part of it is probably the divide between people who think about the game in terms of them playing a game just like they would play poker, or monopoly, or whatever and those who tend to be more in-character.  I don't mean RP per se, or walking around and refusing to meta game, or talk OOC, or something, but its just that little bit of something that, for instance, compels me to choose the "Guardian of Cenarius" title on my druid in WoW  even when I have ones that are more prestigious in terms of the achievement meta game.   Why? Because the character is a druid, and it just FEELS like he would go by that title rather than the others.   The divide between "I have full tier 10" and "My character has full tier 10"  even.  Perhaps subtle, but I think that is why the "immersion" discussion is so hard to pin down sometimes.

[Sky]

I start talking in a Russian accent when I've been playing GTA IV.

[Yegolev]

or maybe I'm just getting old and jaded.

[WayAbvPar]

I start talking in a Russian accent when I've been playing GTA IV.

Yeah, but that is just so you can talk about beeg Amereecan Tittays without getting slapped.

[tgr]

Any excuse to talk about beeg Amereecan teetees, is good excuse, no?

I think we're mostly in agreement on how you can measure immersion, it's just how you get there that's up for debate.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think we're mostly in agreement on how you can measure immersion, it's just how you get there that's up for debate.

Consistency is one key.

[Bzalthek]

In my opinion a big draw is giving the players a sense of belonging is key.  Or perhaps it's providing them a "presence."  Player housing is one avenue though limitations mitigate it.  Instanced player housing is generally less effective than player housing that takes and occupies actual real estate.  It gives the player a place to say, "this is mine" and others can see it an say "that is his."  Even without player housing you see this taking place.  Most servers on EQ had that notable merchant type.  On Lanys it was Malden in the EC tunnel.  When the bazaar opened up, many people would typically set up shop in the same place.  They chalked out an area they, perhaps subconsciously, labeled as "theirs."

Even in WoW you see this as people congregate in the city, doing nothing but chatting and perhaps sitting on their most prominent mount or displaying their hardest-earned gear.

EQ used to say "You're in our world now,"  but we kept trying to make it "our world."

[Hoax]

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

Wait, WHAT?

I stopped playing LoL because it simply WASN'T!  It takes me 10 minutes to even get TO the action because of the searching, countdowns, load, game start delay, moving to positions...


Now, starcraft on the other hand, that's how you do it. 1m and you're in the game, another minute and you're fighting, games can last 5-30m.

Starcraft doesn't come close, within each champion and each team composition and each fight and each item build there is so much variation.  Starcraft will never ever ever match the amount of possible gameplay.  Also Starcraft is too fucking intense, too focused and too neurotic I'd rather watch it than play it.  Its possible that the editor will do some amazing shit and I'll probably buy it but LoL's core game > SC2 core game for enjoying your spare time.