The Thrill Is Gone

[Velorath]

Pretty much this is the premise of the book I'm writing. Old and jaded is part of it, but clearly the idea that people had of what MMORPG's/virtual worlds could be has not come to pass. And appears unlikely to come to pass. So in those cases, it always behooves the people who had that idea to tool it back into the shop and say, "Why did I think that"? When you're that wrong (I'm in the 'you'), it means the problem is with you, not the the thing that disappointed.

Maybe.

So you're writing a book about how a lot of people had wildly unrealistic expectations for MMO's, and that they're starting to realize that nobody is ever going to spend millions of dollars developing a game catering specifically to their vague armchair designing, which undoubtedly would result in a game that is the everlasting gobstopper of fun if only someone would just have the courage to make it?

Sounds like a compelling read.

[jakonovski]

A lot of this stuff just sounds like being demoralized, and not jaded per se. A cure can be found in stuff like this: http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=93

Also, regarding the magic of MMOs, I don't think it can happen very often for anyone. After a thousand hours of gameplay, even the bestest game ever will get boring. And then you have to wait until someone figures out something just as exciting but all new. Not at all easy, so the logical thing to do is to wait it out and explore different genres.

[tgr]

Just to keep going with the imagery, robotinho was somewhat up there on the reaction scale, but nothing trumps this That's some serious reaction right there. It's much less pronounced in games, as they're better than the last two examples, but if I were to watch Halo or Heavy Rain, chances are I'll be much less creeped out by a guy talking in a helmet you can't see through, than the characters which are so close, yet so far. But enough on this subject from me I think.

It's just the way I think that "story" needs to be dealt with - have a beginning, middle and end. I'm not sure anyone would actually invest in it, since a major strength for a MMO is a multi-year lifespan that sees the dollars roll in off the long-tail, but there is a price you pay for being open-ended. Having a fixed end-point has some issues related to a business structure, but they aren't insurmountable.

Isn't that exactly what SWTOR is trying to do? Obviously it'll have a fair bit of catassery just to give bioware time to crank out more content, but I thought one of the main selling points were supposed to be lots of stories with a beginning, middle and end. It's the sole reason I'm actually sort of hoping the game'll not suck, as I've been waiting for KOTOR3 for a few years.

As for graphics: they matter. They are your link to the entire video game world. For a new MMO, they have to be at least as good as the single player games just to be noticed on the shelf. "Good" is a relative term, of course, depending what your customers are looking for, but given the number of old MMOs who get facelifts it is something that is important to keep bringing in new players.

I don't think I said graphics didn't matter, but in case I was misunderstood, I agree that they do matter, at least to make the sale. The problem is, as long as you maintain a certain minimum level (which for me is far below farcry2/crysis etc level), then it gradually goes over into "it doesn't matter". Nobody'll say games like SoaSE have "great graphics" (but then again, that's not quite what sells that type of game), but neither does games like Serious Sam 2. SS2 won't sell to the gaming crowd that absolutely demands "flashy graphics", but I'm having an absolute blast revisiting it, and I never notice that there's no bumpmapping or whatever some gamers demand these days.

Hell, I run EVE with the graphics all the way down unless I'm taking screenshots, and I was one of the guys who thought the graphics update was a bit wasted compared to whatever else they could've been spending their time on. That was before I got involved in fleet fights, at which point graphics fidelity mattered even more (I hardly ever see anything other than brackets, the overview, and my modules).

[Modern Angel]

Vanity presses have ruined the world.

[Zzulo]

I don't know. I hope games keep evolving when it comes to realistic faces. I loved Half-Life 2 and its episodes for this reason. It came out 6 years ago but I haven't seen another FPS with emotive faces like that. Most games are just absolutely horrible in the facial animation department, and many others barely seem to try.

[Ghambit]

Facial animation is something that's in the works right now.  You saw glimpses of it in "The Incredible Hulk" and "Avatar."  Those systems have yet to make it into a game though, but the tech. is definitely out there and ready for sale.  Cameron's facial mo-cap system isnt proprietary, so if one has the coin they can buy a rig.

Matter of fact, body mo-cap-wise there are now extremely cheap consumer rigs you can buy for under $1000... for all you lazy animators, or folks that harp the Uncanny Valley.

As I was saying, the tools are making things a lot easier these days.  Especially so for smaller non-MMO games.   The main issue still resides in the right people having the money to produce said game, and the fact is most people with good designs or skills just dont have the money or have to work like normal people do.  Once they retire, perhaps they dabble in some projects, but by that time their training and tools are obsolete... and as for now, we're dealing with Baby Boomers (tech. ignorant) trying to do this since the Gen-Xers (monetarily broke) are still working.

[Nebu]

Graphics glitz takes way too much of a priority.  Here's a crazy idea: Make a fun game first, then make it look pretty.  I'll be over here holding my breath while I wait. 

[Hawkbit]

Graphics glitz takes way too much of a priority.  Here's a crazy idea: Make a fun game first, then make it look pretty.  I'll be over here holding my breath while I wait. 

I wish more developers understood this.  I don't mind playing EQ style graphics provided the game is fun.  Hell, I *still* play good NES games because they were fun, not because they were pretty. 

[UnSub]

The art department don't make the design decisions about fun, but they can certainly hurt how immersive players find the world.

Tgr, SWOR is indeed taking the story angle, but it still will be open ended (and probably episodic). EA BioWare would love SWOR to run for as long or even longer than UO. Regarding graphics, I was making a general point. If you skimp on graphics you will end up with a niche audience before you even get to game play.

[tgr]

Facial animation is something that's in the works right now.  You saw glimpses of it in "The Incredible Hulk" and "Avatar."  Those systems have yet to make it into a game though, but the tech. is definitely out there and ready for sale.  Cameron's facial mo-cap system isnt proprietary, so if one has the coin they can buy a rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdsRINKNkoM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOO6Vv-i04Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkvC-blS9Y8

The technology is definitely there, but games haven't quite gotten them yet. Games like heavy rain would definitely benefit from them, but most normal games would probably benefit from taking a few steps back on the art side, just to keep the costs down. Last I checked, the gaming experience was the big deal about playing games, not spending money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cdwZwF_rcE
Just found this. Pity there's no sound, it would be interesting to see just how well they synced the lips up. I fear they haven't quite gotten that bit down yet, even though everything else looked pretty good (albeit overexposed, probably to hide tech deficiencies). Getting it absolutely right is hard, as it doesn't take much to ruin the whole thing.

[slog]

Graphics glitz takes way too much of a priority.  Here's a crazy idea: Make a fun game first, then make it look pretty.  I'll be over here holding my breath while I wait. 

I wish more developers understood this.  I don't mind playing EQ style graphics provided the game is fun.  Hell, I *still* play good NES games because they were fun, not because they were pretty. 

They understand it perfectly.  Games with older looking graphics don't sell.

[Rasix]

Graphics glitz takes way too much of a priority.  Here's a crazy idea: Make a fun game first, then make it look pretty.  I'll be over here holding my breath while I wait.  

I wish more developers understood this.  I don't mind playing EQ style graphics provided the game is fun.  Hell, I *still* play good NES games because they were fun, not because they were pretty.  

They understand it perfectly.  Games with older looking graphics don't sell.

Looking pretty is a huge barrier to entrance.  I play a lot of games and often find myself going back and playing them again well after their graphical heyday.  I love dwarf fortress and that almost nothing going for it asthetically (although dwarves burning to death because you fucking up a pumping mechanism is a thing of beauty).  However, none of these games I went into without having been there before or without heavy recommendation from those that have already made the jump.  Only ugly games I buy are SRPGs, because well... most of them are ugly.  

I'd like to think I'm above the graphical snobbery, but when looking at the Q2 releases, I was dismissing games out of hand that looked terrible.  Nier is one of these games.  Without ffc, I don't I'd even have looked twice at the game due to how last gen it looked.  Now I'm actually considering buying it because of unique and interesting it sounds.  Ffc also successfully convinced me to play Resonance of Fate, another game that looked pretty bad in action.  (I'm thinking we should give him a monthly column so I know what to buy.)    I've actually stopped playing games in the past just because they were too ugly to live (Arcanum being the most stellar example of this).

I imagine most developers would rather get their sales right away rather than allow word of mouth to push users past a game that looks dated.  They've got bills to pay.  Hell, even putting together a Wii, DS or independent title isn't cheap in regards to art.  You're still going to be pushing for everything you can get in order to get fewer people to dismiss your game with a wave of the eye.

edit: And I can't help but think this is even harder for MMO development.  You've got to accomplish the following things: look good in 5 years (or however how long it is until you start pimping gameplay videos), look good in relation to other games for as long as you want it to run, have your game run on a very diverse range of system specs and have it run as well as WoW (targetting low end while looking good can't be easy), create an immense amount of character/armor/weapon art so everyone can feel special and unique, etc.  This is one area where I feel certain studios keep fucking up.  You don't push the poly count in the MMO space or you're going to niche yourself into a small subset of users than can run the newest version of Crysis.

[trias_e]

WAR and AOC really crushed my ability to care about MMORPGs anymore.  I think they touched me in a bad place.  Oh well, it's not like losing that ability is a big deal.  There's plenty of better ways to spend your time, gaming or non.

But I will admit...that little broken part of me still wants that polished, exciting, community based experience.  Wasn't Fallen Earth an attempt at something different that wasn't too bad?  And of course Eve exists, inpenetrable to most (including me). 

I wonder if the next big thing could be Eve done right.  A streamlined and less brutal Eve but with the same fundamentals of territorial, community-created content.  EQ : Wow :: Eve : what devs should be making.

Regarding graphics, I personally could play a game with EQ graphics if everything else was polished and perfect.  I mean modern gameplay, UI, etc.  Those are the issues that I find unforgivable when it comes to smaller budget games, not graphics.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some of this conversation makes me cringe. Of course I am biased.

I would like to add, be careful comparing single or multi-player game "Graphics" to MMO ones. As you all should know, SP games are a lot easier to control the overhead and any given viewpoint than MMO's, so in many cases, the comparison just doesn't apply.

Facial animation alone could easily be 15 more mobs on the screen. Choose one.

As far as faces in general, first helmet negates most of that work.   

[Modern Angel]

I think they touched me in a bad place. 

I think they touched investors in a bad place, too. Really, besides Star Wars (which was in development before those two launched and crashed), what's the triple A title with the huge marketing budget? There's nothing on the horizon claiming to be the next WoW. There's no madcap asshole developer screaming about steak versus hamburgers and no, Serek Dmart doesn't count. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems that after the WAR/AOC fiascoes the noise surrounding the entire enterprise shifted. GW2 is coming a little close but it feels different than what we used to get out of the MMO machine.

[Rasix]

WAR and AOC really crushed my ability to care about MMORPGs anymore.  I think they touched me in a bad place.

I think these two killed my remaining wide-eyed optimism and forgiveness for "MMOs being MMOs".  I don't even beta a game now if I have doubts. Two consecutive titles where I didn't make it out of the first month.  Fuck, I didn't even make it to level 18 in WAR and IMO that's worse than my stint in COH (didn't even make it to travel powers).

AOC also made me feel bad about my PC.  Which I should (it's not great), but it still didn't feel good having a MMO bring your rig to its knees.

[Malakili]

Regarding graphics, I really think TF2 won me over on stylized graphics for good.  Graphics designed to be fairly easy to run, age nicely, and offer distinctive easy to see/parse characters.   WoW looks dated now, but playing it I never really care that it doesn't look more like lotro or something.  Similarly, Torchlight looks very nice, even with pretty low poly counts.  On the flip side, something like Bad Company 2 looks awesome, but I don't really know that if its that much better in the big picture.  With so many particle effects flying around the screen, and all the models looking pretty similar, half the time I can't tell what I'm looking at.

Granted, this is coming from a guy that doesn't own a 360 or ps3, but does own a wii.  

Flashy graphics might pique my interest in something, or say "wow what a cool video" but I'm certainly not going to buy a box based on them, let alone pick an MMO to play that way.  Sure, I don't necessarily want to go back to UO  in terms of graphics, but at the same time, if a game played exceedingly well, I defintiely wouldn't rule it out.

[WayAbvPar]

Apparently I am in the minority- I don't give a shit about graphics. In the past 12-18 months I have played and enjoyed:

Diablo II (800x600 and fugly)
Wizard's Crown (from the 1980s and still fun)
AutoDuel (1980s)
Darklands (early 90s)
XCom (mid 90s)

Actually, the only thing keeping me from playing these more often is the terrible UIs, and in some cases DOSBox (which I haven't tried on my Win7 box yet). Hell, I play Dark Wind for several hours a week, and its graphics are definitely nothing to write home about. If the gameplay is interesting, my imagination will fill in the details just fine. Ideally a company would put together a great GAME, and then maybe add in pretty art and voice overs and what not as an expansion/update.

[Rasix]

Apparently I am in the minority- I don't give a shit about graphics. In the past 12-18 months I have played and enjoyed:

Diablo II (800x600 and fugly)
Wizard's Crown (from the 1980s and still fun)
AutoDuel (1980s)
Darklands (early 90s)
XCom (mid 90s)

Which one of these are you playing for the first time?

[Malakili]

Which one of these are you playing for the first time?

This is actually a pretty good point, a game with 90s graphics isn't bad when you played it, know you like it, and have lots of nostalgia to keep you going.  Now consider that the target audience of new games were in some cases not even alive yet when some of those were release, or maybe 3-5 years old.  To them, PS2 is probably the lowest end graphics they ever saw in a "new" game, so it'd be hard to win them over on older types of graphics.

Still, I think that graphics don't need to be flashy and amazing, but they do need to be functional and do their job.  I'll mention TF2 again, if you listen to the commentary tracks about why they made design choices they did with the character models, you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Slayerik]

Well, I'm playing League of Legends pretty much exclusively right now and it has WC3-like graphics. It's not pretty, but it's fun.  I like their art style and GAMEPLAY motherfuckers.....gameplay. Not sure this has anything to do with anything, just sayin'.


EDIT: I guess what I am saying is if you bring fun and something new to the table, you can be plenty dated with graphics and get away with it. See Planetside and massive battles.

[Khaldun]

Pretty much this is the premise of the book I'm writing. Old and jaded is part of it, but clearly the idea that people had of what MMORPG's/virtual worlds could be has not come to pass. And appears unlikely to come to pass. So in those cases, it always behooves the people who had that idea to tool it back into the shop and say, "Why did I think that"? When you're that wrong (I'm in the 'you'), it means the problem is with you, not the the thing that disappointed.

Maybe.

So you're writing a book about how a lot of people had wildly unrealistic expectations for MMO's, and that they're starting to realize that nobody is ever going to spend millions of dollars developing a game catering specifically to their vague armchair designing, which undoubtedly would result in a game that is the everlasting gobstopper of fun if only someone would just have the courage to make it?

Sounds like a compelling read.

Partly what I'm writing about is the history of ideas about crossing into "other worlds", which I think is sort of the cultural pre-history of a lot of ideas about 'the virtual' after 1980 or so. The argument is that desire for 'virtual worlds' (and also I think 'artificial societies' among social scientists working with simulations) was produced by a much deeper history that many people looking for virtual worlds were unaware of and yet profoundly influenced by. But I am also discussing the question of what exactly makes it difficult to make a 'virtual world' of the kind that some players (and academics) eagerly anticipated or desired (a question that's been talked to death round these parts).

[Malakili]

Well, I'm playing League of Legends pretty much exclusively right now and it has WC3-like graphics. It's not pretty, but it's fun.  I like their art style and GAMEPLAY motherfuckers.....gameplay. Not sure this has anything to do with anything, just sayin'.


EDIT: I guess what I am saying is if you bring fun and something new to the table, you can be plenty dated with graphics and get away with it. See Planetside and massive battles.

I definitely agree.   I think we are almost having 2 separate discussions now though

1) Do graphics matter

and

2) What can your art department do that isn't cutting edge and won't destroy your budget that still makes your game visually appealing. 

My answer to number one is clearly "yes" but not mean "they need to be cutting edge" they just need to be approriate for what you are trying to accomplish.  Which ties into 2, in that I think a stylized, easy to parse graphical style is the best choice over all.

[CharlieMopps]

Give Mr Bloodworth that $10mil to sink into wurm and I bet they could come up with something awesome. They'd need to ignore a lot of their hardcore players though (as would any inde game)

[Mrbloodworth]

Apparently I am in the minority- I don't give a shit about graphics. In the past 12-18 months I have played and enjoyed:

Diablo II (800x600 and fugly)
Wizard's Crown (from the 1980s and still fun)
AutoDuel (1980s)
Darklands (early 90s)
XCom (mid 90s)

Actually, the only thing keeping me from playing these more often is the terrible UIs, and in some cases DOSBox (which I haven't tried on my Win7 box yet). Hell, I play Dark Wind for several hours a week, and its graphics are definitely nothing to write home about. If the gameplay is interesting, my imagination will fill in the details just fine. Ideally a company would put together a great GAME, and then maybe add in pretty art and voice overs and what not as an expansion/update.

Some of those titles set the bar for its age.

Give Mr Bloodworth that $10mil to sink into wurm and I bet they could come up with something awesome. They'd need to ignore a lot of their hardcore players though (as would any inde game)

I am not that good, but I can outsource with the best of them and can identify talent.

[Musashi]

But I am also discussing the question of what exactly makes it difficult to make a 'virtual world' of the kind that some players (and academics) eagerly anticipated or desired (a question that's been talked to death round these parts).

It's difficult because nobody but those six academics and a few shut-in Star Trek holodeck nerds really want it.  Everybody else is perfectly happy pwning noobs.

---

Can somebody tell me why immersion really matters?  I get pretty tired of that getting tossed around like it's a given. 

Then you can tell me why we point to graphic engine demos and wonder where the game is, then in the same breath declare that if not for graphics the game won't sell.

Also, I want to punch this thread in the cock.

[Hoax]

It isn't that we're old, age is irrelevant, its just overexposure to a genre that when it initially was conceived made many gamers dreamers of how amazing the virtual worlds and gameplay would become in MMO's that hasn't happened.  Instead the current best MMO is the retarded stepchild that took the simplest least imaginative parts, removed the virtual world and added almost nothing and certainly nothing exciting just increased accessibility and casual friendliness.

If we wanted to put our money where our mouths are we could get 20+ of us from this thread together and go play Fallen Earth for a month, if I could get the game for cheap I'd be down never tried it at launch.

I think another harsh reality people are forgetting is that many of us don't have the time to invest even if there was the next hardcore things happen while your offline losing punishes the loser game.  I know I don't and that really means that the Devs are smart to pour money in WoW look alikes.  We're agitating for something that would frustrate us if it came out because only high school students and unemployed losers could play enough to dominate.

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

[LK]

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

This. The variation in battles and short, tight encounters leads for much fun.

[Malakili]

Can somebody tell me why immersion really matters?  I get pretty tired of that getting tossed around like it's a given. 

Can we define immersion first?  No, seriously.  What exactly do you mean.  That you should forget you're playing a game? That you feel compelled to act in character?  That the game world feels internally consistent?  That game mechanics are hidden enough so as to hide the mechanical side of the game?  Some combination there of?

Or are we just using it as a catchall term to mean "a game that *feels* good" which is nice, but basically utterly meaningless.

[CharlieMopps]

I am not that good, but I can outsource with the best of them and can identify talent.

That's what I'm assuming you'd do. And hire some graphic artists to finish the animations damn it.

[bhodi]

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

Wait, WHAT?

I stopped playing LoL because it simply WASN'T!  It takes me 10 minutes to even get TO the action because of the searching, countdowns, load, game start delay, moving to positions...


Now, starcraft on the other hand, that's how you do it. 1m and you're in the game, another minute and you're fighting, games can last 5-30m.

[Mrbloodworth]

And hire some graphic artists to finish the animations damn it.

That's not a problem of lack people to animate. Long story.

[Draegan]

I spent more time in LoL trying to figure out what shit I had to buy in what order.  Then dieing a lot.

[Dtrain]

Also, play more League of Legends you know its the best use of your gaming time out there.

This. The variation in battles and short, tight encounters leads for much fun.

LOL is hours of fun, but I would't go quite so far as to say it's the best thing you can do with your spare gaming time.

For one thing the community sucks. Personally, I don't relish playing a game with someone who blames me because they want to charge 5 prepared people by themselves, and they expect your squishy twitch to back them up. And it seems like I get something similar in every game I play.

For another thing, the game crys out for some sort of a ranked ladder. The learning curve is just too steep to throw everyone together the way it does.

The momentum of the match is too hard to turn around for the time investment of 30 minutes to 1 hour.

It needs more maps.

Some characters are very good in comparison, while others are more of a detriment to their teams. Certain characters have mad synergy together, which is fine except for the total exploitability vs. less skilled players that the game loves to match you against.

But I guess it's a backhanded compliment, because in spite of all that, I still have to play at least a couple matches each day.

[Malakili]

I'm hoping End of Nations will include some of that quick to get started RTS gameplay in an MMO setting.  My hope is that they'll have a larger meta game of territory conquest by faction, but have the ability to get in and deploy to a battle very quickly.  Now, hopefully the battles will go on for a while, with players able to enter and leave pretty easily, so it'll be a bit different that SC or LoL, but that is what I am hoping for at least.