Cataclysm Stat Changes

[Ingmar]

I don't really mind blood being the tank tree. I'll lose my unique snowflake unholy tank-ness, but that's ok. 

Curious though, if they made this move due to the mastery system ("we can't have a tree add mastery bonuses for a tank spec + damage spec at the same time omg"), what is going to happen to the feral tree?

With feral you can tie the bonuses to form while remaining sure you won't create any broken interactions. You can have a mastery bonus that looks like "in Bear form 20% more hp, in cat form 20% more damage" and have it just work. That would be significantly more of a mess with DKs, since they not only have 3 presences instead of 2 forms, they also can use all their abilities in every stance so you run the risk of creating unintended consequences with that sort of thing. Its just much cleaner the way bear/cat differences work.

[Wolf]

well shadowpriests are in the same boat. With two healing trees, what would a dps want to do with a +healing bonus. I guess one could be mana regen. Yay.

[Ragnoros]

well shadowpriests are in the same boat. With two healing trees, what would a dps want to do with a +healing bonus. I guess one could be mana regen. Yay.

IIRC You will only receive the passive talent tree bonuses from the tree you are most heavily invested in.

e.g. Shadow priests only receive the damage bonuses from the shadow tree, none of the healing ones from disc/holy.

However IIRC again, only the first 51 points (or whatever the new number to get to the end of the tree) will give the passive bonuses. That way classes with more than one DPS tree will actually be able to spec points outside of their chosen main tree without losing possible passive bonuses.

In short any given class will be "forced" to spec 51 points into their main tree, but will be free to stick the rest wherever they like.

[caladein]

However IIRC again, only the first 51 points (or whatever the new number to get to the end of the tree) will give the passive bonuses. That way classes with more than one DPS tree will actually be able to spec points outside of their chosen main tree without losing possible passive bonuses.

In short any given class will be "forced" to spec 51 points into their main tree, but will be free to stick the rest wherever they like.

Yes.  From a few pages back:

Yeah, just looked through the linked thread:

1) Mastery on gear gives you one bonus. That bonus is the third passive (the unique one) in the tree in which you’ve spent the most points. In the examples we gave, those are Absorption, Radiance and Runic Power generation.

...

3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you’ve spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn’t be losing passive bonuses.

If you turn level 10 and spend 1 point in Discipline, you are now a Disc priest. You receive the Disc talent tree passive bonuses and mastery rating on gear benefits your Disc passive bonus (Absorption). If you reach level 85 and have 70 points in Disc and 6 in Holy, you are still a Disc priest and the same rules apply. If you change your build to 51 Disc / 20 Holy / 5 Shadow, you are still a Disc priest.

Problem solved.

[Wolf]

Ah cool. I even read that but forgot it :)

[Sheepherder]

Personally, if I may neckbeard for a bit, I would probably have killed the DW thing entirely and left DKs as 2h users across the board, there's already too much DW in this game and it makes itemization easier since DKs don't want the same stat balance that other DW dps do.

Or, they could fix the root problem and revise the basic weapon damage based instant attack formula to be speed and weapon / wield type agnostic for purposes of the total damage done per ability usage.

You know, basic systems shit now five years overdue that only got a kludgy patch with weapon speed normalization.

[caladein]

Shaman Preview's up at: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24038611737&sid=1

[Shrike]

Ahh, god, they're going to seriously fuck up enhancement--again.

Two things spring out.

1) My hotkeys are crammed to the gills as it is. I'm literally running out of keyboard keys. Now I"ve got three melee attacks and five (5!) heals? I barely have room for the two and three. Not counting the lightning bolts, all of which need instant response to fire off with how MW works. Maybe MW is going away. One good answer is just shitcan the friggin' totems already. Interesting idea, but it doesn't work for shit and it's been an albatross around our necks for 4 years now.

2) No more poison cleansing. So. Rogues are losing poisons in PvP then. Right? Otherwise, how is this melee subclass going to function against them? It's bad with auto-cleansing totems as it is. We'd best get some serious anti-CC abilities in recompense for this. I mean serious shit that actually works. Not more crap crammed onto SR. Perma wolves? Geezus.

[Rendakor]

I wish they'd just change Maelstrom Weapon to auto-fire a lightning bolt like the DK's Sudden Doom now does. Although that might be kind of a PVP nerf, as you can currently use MW for heals too.

[K9]

I wish they'd just change Maelstrom Weapon to auto-fire a lightning bolt like the DK's Sudden Doom now does. Although that might be kind of a PVP nerf, as you can currently use MW for heals too.

I'd prefer to keep the mechanic as-is, having the choice of what spell to use is pretty valuable to me.

[Ingmar]

I wish they'd just change Maelstrom Weapon to auto-fire a lightning bolt like the DK's Sudden Doom now does. Although that might be kind of a PVP nerf, as you can currently use MW for heals too.

I'd prefer to keep the mechanic as-is, having the choice of what spell to use is pretty valuable to me.

Yeah that heal can be really nice at times, even in PVE, since you can use it to fire off a chain heal or whatever.

[Lantyssa]

Sudden Doom is nice in that it's a free attack, however DKs still have Death Coil they can cast on their own.  And the damage talents and glypns affect both of them.

[Sheepherder]

Neckbearding:

Or make the (unique) autoattack / cast non-interaction that hunters have universal for all spell casts, so warriors and shamans aren't penalized in auto-attack damage for initiating a casted ability.  Would give fury a cool rage dump (Slam) to replace Heroic Strike, buff Arms single target damage, and make Maelstrom into a mobility talent.

[Gobbeldygook]

Neckbearding:

Or make the (unique) autoattack / cast non-interaction that hunters have universal for all spell casts, so warriors and shamans aren't penalized in auto-attack damage for initiating a casted ability.  Would give fury a cool rage dump (Slam) to replace Heroic Strike, buff Arms single target damage, and make Maelstrom into a mobility talent.

Slam works completely differently from a normal spell in WOTLK.  It doesn't reset your swing timer, it merely delays it until the cast completes.  Fury never hard-casts Slam because giving up the white damage and hs or cleave for 1.5 seconds is never worth it.  and no, it would not be 'cool', it would suck satan's asshole to have to stand still and hard-cast while in melee range.

[Shrike]

Slam sucks for arms as it is. The only reason--the way I understand it anyway--that you can get away with it is the slow 2h weapons speeds.

I'd prefer an incite/HS rage dump for arms and that does work IF you're really geared up. I've tried it on my ghetto warrior and though it has nasty burst damage, she simply doesn't generate the rage necessary to really keep it going--yet.

[Sheepherder]

Slam works completely differently from a normal spell in WOTLK.  It doesn't reset your swing timer, it merely delays it until the cast completes.  Fury never hard-casts Slam because giving up the white damage and hs or cleave for 1.5 seconds is never worth it.  and no, it would not be 'cool', it would suck satan's asshole to have to stand still and hard-cast while in melee range.

Which has nothing to do with my comment, because hunters have it one better and their slam equivalent does not pause their auto-attack swing timer which significantly increases their damage throughput while it's in use without significantly increasing burst - unless the player manages to time their auto and steady shots to hit simultaneously.  But hey, one-button or short sequence burst isn't broken in PvP resulting in a constant stream of balance changes, amirite?

Or are you just bitching because standing still for half a second to drop a slam is so challenging?

Slam sucks for arms as it is. The only reason--the way I understand it anyway--that you can get away with it is the slow 2h weapons speeds.

I'd prefer an incite/HS rage dump for arms and that does work IF you're really geared up. I've tried it on my ghetto warrior and though it has nasty burst damage, she simply doesn't generate the rage necessary to really keep it going--yet.

You are doing it wrong.  You will never have the rage for it.

[Ingmar]

Actually warriors in T10 are using HS/incite quite well, once you get to that level the rage issues really diminish.

Re: slam, the fix is not turning slam into steady shot, the fix is taking off the casting time entirely and just letting it be fury's proc attack (arms won't need it at all with new HS): it's mechanically inconsistent with everything else about the class and awkward to use besides. There's no value in preserving it as a cast ability.

[Typhon]

Completely agree with that.  If you miss the <SLAM> pop in the UI because you are looking at cooldowns your action bar, you have to look your buff icons to figure out if it's insta.  Would rather that slam worked for fury like overpower does for arms (with a different trigger).

[Sheepherder]

Re: slam, the fix is not turning slam into steady shot, the fix is taking off the casting time entirely and just letting it be fury's proc attack (arms won't need it at all with new HS): it's mechanically inconsistent with everything else about the class and awkward to use besides. There's no value in preserving it as a cast ability.

Because what Blizzard is aiming for is having every melee class be highly mobile instagibbing machines constantly in a GCD locked state.

[Ingmar]

Re: slam, the fix is not turning slam into steady shot, the fix is taking off the casting time entirely and just letting it be fury's proc attack (arms won't need it at all with new HS): it's mechanically inconsistent with everything else about the class and awkward to use besides. There's no value in preserving it as a cast ability.

Because what Blizzard is aiming for is having every melee class be highly mobile instagibbing machines constantly in a GCD locked state.

Fury isn't anything approaching GCD locked right now, and who plays it in PVP anyway?

The core issue is slam is Not Fun.

[Sheepherder]

Heroic Strike changes, look into it. (I know, you did already)

Also, I've heard about the T10 / Incite builds, but I haven't seen anything solid yet that actually confirms they are not terrible.

EDIT: Also, timing a Slam to land on a moving player is fun, what's wrong with you?  The only way it could be better is if it automatically aquired a new target in melee range if the old one moved out of range / frontal radius.

[Ingmar]

Part of the value of the incite build is actually tied up in the change to make thunderclap function like a ranged attack - because that lowered the hit you need for it considerably and because it gains 15% crit from incite, it actually beats out slam as a button to push if there are even 2 things to hit with it, because having deep wounds tick on the second target means more chances for your tier 10 2 piece to proc. The other factors that push the incite build over the top are heroic strike being 15% more likely to crit than slam with incite, so there's more deep wounds ticks happening and thus more procs, and also the fact that sudden death gets 2 charges means that you're just generally less likely to cast slam anyway because more GCDs are used up by using execute. The last bit is you just won't generate enough rage without the stats and dps on t10-level stuff to make it worthwhile.

You won't be hitting heroic strike every swing with an incite build obviously, but you will probably use it about as much as a normal arms build uses slam, you just have to be careful not to do it at a time when it will stop you from being able to do one of your other abilities, which means you have to be very very good at being aware of exactly how much rage you have and how much you're going to need in your next couple swings. It is one of the harder 'skill' specs in the game, really, and I'm kind of glad my lack of good dps gear and tank main spec save me from having to learn it. (Arms is much more fun than fury even in the regular 54/17/0 spec IMO so I'm happy to stick with that.)

[Shrike]

I actually find the incite build quite intriguing. I hate slam with a passion and getting rid of it would be a Good Thing. Sadly, my warrior isn't geared for it, and I might have to revert to the 54/17 thing. Still, I like the idea of the incite build. Maybe it comes from playing enhance.