Cataclysm Stat Changes

[Merusk]

The biggest drawback I see to the mastery system is those "Increases x by y for every point" bits.   Without some kind of diminishing returns I think you're going to wind up with a lot of single-tree specs and that kills a lot of the flavor of the talent system.   Sure, there's "mandatory" specs for raiding but you can still fuck around and do things differently if all you're worried about are leveling and heroics. 

[Fordel]

They'll just cap it at like 50 points max, then you can put your other 20-30 points wherever you want.

[caladein]

I think the Diminishing Returns can just be running out of talents you want in the tree.  As a Disc Priest, I could put all my points into Discipline, but it's not like the third Holy Mastery bonus is useless.

Bigger absorbs are better than a HoT for me, but probably not enough to warrant giving up genuinely good talents in Holy (like Inspiration or Spell Warding) for whatever pure-Arena-talent-I'd-never-use in Discipline.

[Ingmar]

I think they said that mastery benefits stop improving at 55 points in a tree already, and that you can't get the 3rd bonus from more than one tree. So, your secondary points in Holy would give you the first 2 passives but not the third.

[caladein]

I think they said that mastery benefits stop improving at 55 points in a tree already, and that you can't get the 3rd bonus from more than one tree. So, your secondary points in Holy would give you the first 2 passives but not the third.

Yeah, just looked through the linked thread:

1) Mastery on gear gives you one bonus. That bonus is the third passive (the unique one) in the tree in which you’ve spent the most points. In the examples we gave, those are Absorption, Radiance and Runic Power generation.

...

3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you’ve spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn’t be losing passive bonuses.

If you turn level 10 and spend 1 point in Discipline, you are now a Disc priest. You receive the Disc talent tree passive bonuses and mastery rating on gear benefits your Disc passive bonus (Absorption). If you reach level 85 and have 70 points in Disc and 6 in Holy, you are still a Disc priest and the same rules apply. If you change your build to 51 Disc / 20 Holy / 5 Shadow, you are still a Disc priest.

Problem solved.

[Fordel]

I was off by 5! 

[Ingmar]

Ah I thought you would get the regular passives but not the mastery passives from a second tree, I guess not handing those out is a good way to make sure people aren't discouraged from going *past* the mastery cap in a tree.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Specifically from a shadow priest perspective, this is kind of dumb.

if the trees are

holy:
healing
regen
hots

disc:
healing
regen
shields

then no matter what the shadow tree is it will never make sense to put a single point in holy or disc as you'll be foregoing a point of something to gain healing

[caladein]

Right now Shadow Priests go into Disc for Damage (Twin Discs), Spell Power (Imp IF), Regen (Med), and probably for a bit of Stam (Imp PW:F).

I'm sure there will be appropriately useful talents in either tree that won't be required.  Spell Warding comes to mind as a damn nice talent to grab if the early Disc tree didn't have raw +Damage-type things in it.

[Sheepherder]

You mean I have to spend 51 points anywhere I like in my main tree to get the full mastery effect, choosing from varied talents which are always designed to be interesting?  CUSTOMIZATION IS DOOOOMMMMEEEEEDDDDDDDD.

[Lantyssa]

It would be nice if splitting talent trees didn't end up gimping you even more than it currently does...

[Fordel]

You'll have to be a unique snowflake some other way Lanty!

[Sheepherder]

You'll have to be a unique snowflake some other way Lanty!

How about this?

[Lantyssa]

... I'm not that unique.

Getting less so all the time.  I already dumped Blood-Caked Blade and Necrosis to get Will of the Necropolis and Blood Gorged.  I'm almost a proper Blood spec for both tanking and dps.  My Druid has been a 'proper' Moonkin for months now.  I feel so dirty.

[Selby]

I'm almost a proper Blood spec for both tanking and dps.

Don't do Unholy or Frost tanking, that's a sign of "special" that you really don't want to be.  I ran with an Unholy tank and it was... very interesting.  I tanked frost for a few weeks before deciding I *really* didn't like it.

[Merusk]

I've been blood tanking for months.. but lately I've gotten tells from healers saying "wtf, u know ur blood spec not frost, rite?"

 

[Evildrider]

I tank in blood, I just don't like frost... and unholy.. well it sucks.  lol

[Rendakor]

Specifically from a shadow priest perspective, this is kind of dumb.

if the trees are

holy:
healing
regen
hots

disc:
healing
regen
shields

then no matter what the shadow tree is it will never make sense to put a single point in holy or disc as you'll be foregoing a point of something to gain healing

Did you miss the part where it said the bonuses are capped out at 51-55 points? Or where you only get bonuses from the tree with the most points in it?

[Selby]

I tank in blood, I just don't like frost... and unholy.. well it sucks.  lol

Exactly.  I tanked in Frost and while I did all right, I needed things like D&D and Howling Blast ALOT more than they were ever up.  In blood I've got a 15-s D&D and heart strike\runestrike to maintain aggro much better than I ever did in Frost.  Unholy is just... blah for tanking.

[Sjofn]

I'm almost a proper Blood spec for both tanking and dps.

Don't do Unholy or Frost tanking, that's a sign of "special" that you really don't want to be.  I ran with an Unholy tank and it was... very interesting.  I tanked frost for a few weeks before deciding I *really* didn't like it.

Frost tanking is fine, don't be silly.


EDIT: Basically, it's fine if you don't like the style, but a frost tank isn't weird or special. And it definitely isn't special with scarequotes.

[Rendakor]

I tank in blood, I just don't like frost... and unholy.. well it sucks.  lol

Exactly.  I tanked in Frost and while I did all right, I needed things like D&D and Howling Blast ALOT more than they were ever up.  In blood I've got a 15-s D&D and heart strike\runestrike to maintain aggro much better than I ever did in Frost.  Unholy is just... blah for tanking.

Even as frost, you should still have specced down the cooldown of D&D.

[Zetor]

My DK's tank spec is unholy. I always knew I was special!  (yeah it's pretty terrible, one day I'll spec frost... didn't find blood that inspiring for tanking heroics)

[Merusk]

Yeah, I wasn't knocking frost, just pointing out that blood's been not just viable but a good tanking spec for a long while now and there's STILL folks that go "wait, you're not frost spec... why are you tanking?" (Hell the T9 bonuses benefit Blood a lot more than frost)


Unholy USED to be ok.. then the nerfs kept coming and now it's worthless.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm so glad they are removing all those confusing and invisible stats in this newest expansion, aren't you? 

[Lantyssa]

Frost tanking is fine, don't be silly.

Yeah, we know good Frost tanks and I've run into some in my randoms.

I don't like how Frost plays though, and I much prefer the self-healing of Blood from the improved presence and other abilities.  It's not as good for area aggro, but it does well enough.  Rune Tap's 22% health every 30 seconds is pretty nice, too.  It's already save me once when our healer got eaten and I had to take over tanking after ours died.

[Typhon]

It would be nice if splitting talent trees didn't end up gimping you even more than it currently does...

Latest forum thread on this topic had a blizz post that said, "we aren't really interested in supporting that, and it's not very popular... so there!".  Almost like they were talking directly to you.  Why did you make them hate you?




Ok! ok! So the actual quote is - "It does discourage some kind of true hybrid build where you go partway down multiple trees, but we aren't really trying to support those, and they aren't very popular today. ", I still they are out to get you!

[Lantyssa]

I know.  Ingmar was giving me grief about it yesterday before I even knew what he was referring too...

[Lakov_Sanite]

what i still dont get is how this doesnt gimp me as shadow.

Ok yes the bonuses will cap out at a certain amount of talent points so lets say I want to put my extra points in either holy or disc. I will be getting passive bonuses to healing and regen if i do that.  Neither really help me in dps where as a rogue doing the same, capping out assasination and then investing in combat will get passive dps upgrades by doing so.  Hello even non pure dps classes like warriors could go fury/arms for more dps because we can assume their first two passives will be dmg based but beyond the talents themselves in disc/holy(which have never appealed to shadow beyond some mana regen) there's no reason no to just fill out the whole shadow tree if you can.

[Ingmar]

I will be getting passive bonuses to healing and regen if i do that. 

They haven't given a clear answer but one of the things they said they're considering is that you will ONLY get passives from your main tree. Nothing from secondary trees.

[Fordel]

They'll just limit it to one tree.

[Lantyssa]

What they could do is have +healing translate to +dps while in Shadow.  Of course that requires them to decide to let points outside your main tree matter.  Their little quote there makes me think they want to actively discourage going outside a single tree.

[ezrast]

They spelled it out pretty clearly in the post Caledain quoted way up there.

3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you’ve spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn’t be losing passive bonuses.

Once your (approximately) 55 points are in Shadow, you can throw the rest wherever and it won't affect your mastery (edit: more to the point, rogues/mages/etc won't be able to double-dip any more than spriests/enh shammies/etc). They're referring to all three types of passive bonuses here, not just the one spiffy/unique one.

[kaid]

... I'm not that unique.

Getting less so all the time.  I already dumped Blood-Caked Blade and Necrosis to get Will of the Necropolis and Blood Gorged.  I'm almost a proper Blood spec for both tanking and dps.  My Druid has been a 'proper' Moonkin for months now.  I feel so dirty.

The problem with moonkin is there is very very very little room for deviation while still being effective. Our talent tree is so bloated there is just not much wiggle room in what you can put points into without gimping yourself. DK have a bit more leeway on what they can throw points into but boomkin are pretty much do it this way or suck for how their talents play out.

[kaid]

I've been blood tanking for months.. but lately I've gotten tells from healers saying "wtf, u know ur blood spec not frost, rite?"

 

Blood DK are fine tanks my friend swaps from frost to blood for his tanking spec from time to time and built well there is nothing wrong with blood DK. Now unholy is a different beast. You can tank in unholy but its a pain in the ass threat seems to be a huge issue for them once they get rolling its okay but they seem to have a hard time locking threat down early on which can cause some really nasty problems.

[Tarami]

I just picked WoW back up and I'm not getting the point of this system, what am I missing?

- It'll be based on the total number of points in your primary tree, so it doesn't seem to be ungimping anything; a gimped spec will remained gimped in relation to a better spec.
- Trees give passive bonuses that are relevant to that tree, so there'll be an additional advantage to speccing deeper into a single tree. This appears to remove customization and deincentivize off-specs, neither of which I can embrace as progress.
- Items will have a stat (+Mastery) that will be very attractive to all classes, which seems crappy because it can and probably will create competition for loot across specs and armour classes (think Clothadins in ye olde days.) If on generic slots, like rings, the problem will be exaggerated. This issue can rather easily be dodged, though, even if that makes it a bit pointless (quest rewards only, enchants, gems and other generally accessible means.)

Seriously, help me here, what is Mastery supposed to be fixing/improving?