Cataclysm Stat Changes

[Rendakor]

The stat changes for Cataclysm are up on mmo-champion; doesn't seem to dumb down gear too much. AP, ArP, Spell Power, MP5, Defense and Block Value all going away, Spirit is healers only now, etc.

[kildorn]

The talk about healing/mana changes and healing design change (less spam, more thinking about when to heal) worries me, as does the amount of change with mana regen.

I appreciate that fights will no longer be a DPS vs HPS comparison, but still, I don't want to be back to healing on fumes for half a fight.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Healing in the end game as it is now is very boring and very frustrating. It's essentially if you miss a heal or cooldown, its a wipe.

[Ingmar]

Spirit->Hit for moonkin and elemental is a dumb dumb dumb way to handle it. The end result is that those two specs are just going to be insanely overcapped on hit all the time, because the rings/amulets/cloaks/etc that are itemized for dps casters are going to have plenty of hit for the classes that need it.

[Evildrider]

Spirit->Hit for moonkin and elemental is a dumb dumb dumb way to handle it. The end result is that those two specs are just going to be insanely overcapped on hit all the time, because the rings/amulets/cloaks/etc that are itemized for dps casters are going to have plenty of hit for the classes that need it.

Well remember they said that it was going to be harder to hit caps even with endgame gear.

[Ingmar]

I am pretty sure they're talking about stuff like the crit cap and the various soft/hard haste caps that some classes have, rather than the hit cap, but we'll see.

[ezrast]

Spirit->Hit for moonkin and elemental is a dumb dumb dumb way to handle it. The end result is that those two specs are just going to be insanely overcapped on hit all the time, because the rings/amulets/cloaks/etc that are itemized for dps casters are going to have plenty of hit for the classes that need it.

Not every piece of dps gear is going to have hit on it though, or if it does then moonkin/ele are going to be in the same boat as the rest of the casters. They're just replacing one stat in the mail/leather itemization with another stat that does the same thing.

[Rendakor]

Interesting to see that they're changing moonkin and ele shaman but not holy paladins; I thought they had mentioned some change in the works for them, so that we don't have gear dropping for only one spec of one class.

[kildorn]

Healing in the end game as it is now is very boring and very frustrating. It's essentially if you miss a heal or cooldown, its a wipe.

Yes, but what I'm worried about is the vast difference between early game and endgame healing. Take a low geared healer out for a spin, and it's constantly struggling to find the mana to heal. Take an endgame disc priest or paladin and forget you have a mana bar.

[Rendakor]

I am pretty sure they're talking about stuff like the crit cap and the various soft/hard haste caps that some classes have, rather than the hit cap, but we'll see.

I'm pretty sure they mean both:

Ratings will be steeper in Cataclysm, and creatures in later tiers of content will be harder to hit or crit, similar to how level-83 mobs are harder to hit or crit than level-80 mobs.

Looks like the hit cap will increase as you increase in tiers of content, which to me makes more sense than just needing an arbitrary amount of hit for all content.


Edit: kildorn, I think Blizzard has been pretty clear that they want the gear gap to be smaller, so there shouldn't be a great disparity in healer mana.

[Merusk]

Interesting to see that they're changing moonkin and ele shaman but not holy paladins; I thought they had mentioned some change in the works for them, so that we don't have gear dropping for only one spec of one class.

They mention this later in the thread.  They couldn't come up with any idea that they liked better than just making holy paladins "special snowflakes" in regards to gear.

[Simond]

* Deep Holy talent that increases AC of armour worn (so, for example, mail armour would end up with roughly the same AC as plate of an identical ilvl)
~Or~
* Deep Holy talent that subs STR for INT in the spellpower calc. and AGI for SPI in the regen one.

Hire me, Blizzard. 

[Merusk]

They mentioned the 2nd one as being a discarded idea.  Probably screws up when they model it out for attractive stats for dps vs where they want holy pallies to fall in to line.

The first I can see being discarded because now pallies and shaman look alike.  With their stance on the appearance tab this makes sense.

[WindupAtheist]

Time to translate.

Equip the latest Tier or Season set designed for your class/spec and the six or seven buttons you push will make bigger numbers. I mean let's be serious, optimizing a Diablo 2 character required a lot more thought. We don't even let you guys allocate stat points when you level.

[Merusk]

Expect to see the same in D3.

 

[caladein]

Time to translate.

Equip the latest Tier or Season set designed for your class/spec and the six or seven buttons you push will make bigger numbers. I mean let's be serious, optimizing a Diablo 2 character required a lot more thought. We don't even let you guys allocate stat points when you level.

Removing Armor Penetration from gear does add thought to gear decisions because it scales non-linearly.  Without reworking Armor proper, Armor Penetration will always be the God stat for physical DPS in the second half of an expansion.

The Haste changes go directly to making it do equivalent things for both melee and casters.  Getting rid of regen stats for casters is similarly good news as I don't think they've ever gotten that right.  Both things are talked about a lot better here.

It is strange to see that they are collapsing Attack/Spell Power into Strength/Agility/Intellect and collapsing MP5 into Spirit while at the same time expanding Defense into three of its component parts and presumably removing "Chance to be Missed" in the process.  That said, having half of your tank classes waste at least some part of the "The Tanking Stat" was going to need to go at some point.

Overall, I was pretty pleased by these changes when they were announced at BlizzCon and I still am.

[Sheepherder]

The Haste changes go directly to making it do equivalent things for both melee and casters.

Except for warriors, for whom I'm expecting haste to still be an ass stat because Blizzard seems to think that the extra rage generation is comparable to faster energy regeneration or rune cooldown.  But hey, it's not like I didn't see that one coming.

Also:

	Strength	Agility	Intellect	Spirit
Plate mDPS	AP / ArP	AP / Crit	Hit / Resource	Haste++
Mail mDPS	AP / Crit	AP / ArP	Hit / Resource	Haste++
Leather mDPS	AP / Crit	AP / ArP	Hit / Resource	Haste++
Plate Caster	Hit / SpP	Crit++	SP / Resource	Mp5 / Haste
Mail Caster	Hit / SpP	Crit++	SP / Resource	Mp5 / Haste
Leather Caster	Hit / SpP	Crit++	SP / Resource	Mp5 / Haste
Cloth Caster	Hit / SpP	Crit++	SP / Resource	Mp5 / Haste
Tank Form	Block++	Dodge++	Parry++	Hp5++

1. Bear parry and block, make it happen.  Same for DK.
2. This is just the general scheme, exceptions should apply.
3. More Armored to the Teeth / Bladed Armor. Make them inherent rather than talented.
4. ++ = Lots

I do believe that's the mother of all BBCode tables.  Thank fucking god for OpenOffice and Notepad++.

EDIT: And fuck "But every class needs to be a special snowflake" in the ass.  The gear diversity and drop rates do not exist for that kind of play for starters.  Second, but more importantly: you knowing that Strength is good for you is not you being "good" at warrior, it means you're not a fucking retard.

[Fordel]

Spirit->Hit for moonkin and elemental is a dumb dumb dumb way to handle it. The end result is that those two specs are just going to be insanely overcapped on hit all the time, because the rings/amulets/cloaks/etc that are itemized for dps casters are going to have plenty of hit for the classes that need it.

This will not be an issue.


What will be an issue, is how they intend to go about mana regen for Moonkins and Elemental shamans. Will it be spirit based, non-spirit based? Will we be able to 'double dip' regen? Will we be required to?

[Merusk]

The Haste changes go directly to making it do equivalent things for both melee and casters.

Except for warriors, for whom I'm expecting haste to still be an ass stat because Blizzard seems to think that the extra rage generation is comparable to faster energy regeneration or rune cooldown.  But hey, it's not like I didn't see that one coming.

It's not exactly stellar for DKs, either.  I don't run in to the "Whoops, out of runes" problem often at all, more often its "well GCD is done, time to hit the next button." It'll be big for rogues and hunters, though, since their DPS is limited only by energy consumption. I run into the "out of energy" problem on my rogue all the time.

[Fordel]

I run out of runes all the time on my DK, as in, if I had them up more I could easily do more DPS.

[Zetor]

I think this streamlining is (mostly) a good thing.

Re haste: I only have 'nothing to do' on my DK after doing the IT+PS+pestilence+dnd aoe combo, or about ~4-5 seconds after using army of the dead; the rest of the time I can deathcoil, use horn of winter or bloodtap/boneshield. Being able to scourge strike a few more times instead would definitely help my DPS, but I'd probably still be pushing the same number of buttons overall...

[Rendakor]

Sheepherder, your table is a suggestion right? Not an interpretation of actual changes? (If that is something official, sauce?)

Also, bears have block already: http://www.wowwiki.com/Savage_Defense

[bhodi]

A spirit to hit conversion for the cloth casters would basically mean all caster cloth would be the same and the distinction between the two would be lost. Cloth wearers in cataclysm will have about the same gear options as Shaman and Druids will. Instead of our gear being split between Caster/Physical, we'll see DPS/Healing.

The downside of this is that in the case of druids and shaman, the caster specs are 2/6 of specs available. With 4 cloth classes, we'll be 2/12 specs available. It's not as bad as Holy Paladin, though they have absolutely no competition other than other Holy pallys for their gear. Unless the healer gear looks really unappetizing for the dps classes, healing priests will have difficulties with gear competition.

This is my issue, exactly.

[Rendakor]

Have they said anywhere that they're doing a Spirit > Hit conversion for clothies? All I've seen is that it's for Oomkins and Ele Shaman.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Spirit is supposed to be for healer only in the expac. They've said all dps casters will have their own ways to regen mana, so except things like dispersion and shadowfiends in other classes.

[ezrast]

The paragraphs bhodi quoted are incomprehensible, but yeah. Healing priests will have no competition for spirit gear, unless it's from druids and shamans (and holy pallies, I guess). Heck, spirit plate will probably be the only gear with less competition than spirit cloth.

[Ingmar]

Spirit->Hit for moonkin and elemental is a dumb dumb dumb way to handle it. The end result is that those two specs are just going to be insanely overcapped on hit all the time, because the rings/amulets/cloaks/etc that are itemized for dps casters are going to have plenty of hit for the classes that need it.

This will not be an issue.


What will be an issue, is how they intend to go about mana regen for Moonkins and Elemental shamans. Will it be spirit based, non-spirit based? Will we be able to 'double dip' regen? Will we be required to?

Regen is currently not even a tiny issue for elemental, I would assume that is going to be the model for everyone else.

[K9]

Even in T8 level gear I think it was actually impossible for me to make myself go OOM as elemental. It's not the most interesting model as you might as well eliminate mana in most senses at that point. Having some active regen abilities and having to manage them is better imo.

[El Gallo]

All my beautiful fury warrior leather 

[Sjofn]

I run out of runes all the time on my DK, as in, if I had them up more I could easily do more DPS.

Same here.

[Sheepherder]

Sheepherder, your table is a suggestion right? Not an interpretation of actual changes? (If that is something official, sauce?)

Also, bears have block already: http://www.wowwiki.com/Savage_Defense

Yes, I'm just neckbearding, ignore me.  The i5 in the mail rotted my brain.

[Ingmar]

I'll put this here, the mastery preview is up now too - a little less detailed than I was hoping:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23710210871&sid=1

[kildorn]

I'm eying the whole "hey, maybe we just ditch the 5 second rule" thing carefully. While it's the only real way to balance out healer mana regen and make it less of a metagame, it also makes me really wary of wave style encounters and such.

[Sjofn]

I like waves!

[Lantyssa]

<waves to Sjofn>