Ubi DRM: Their Side of the Story

[Tarami]

I think you're missing the big picture here. Piracy is about picking the low-hanging fruit. As long as there are so many diverse titles available for free, you won't see a drastic increase in sales just because one game manages to remain uncracked, since the pirates are kept entertained by other, more easily cracked games and largely don't feel a need to play every major release. For example, if BioShock 2 proves "uncrackable", I might download Dead Space instead. If Civilization 5 is uncrackable, I might play Settlers 6 instead, and so on. In most cases I can find a cracked, good-enough surrogate for that uncrackable title. Really, the vast majority of games needs to be uncrackable to make overall sales pick up significantly, not just the odd major release here and there, and even then I don't think that individual titles would benefit that much, since the sales would be normalized across major/minor/indie releases. The industry on a whole certainly would benefit, though.

[Sky]

I'm not going to wade into the shithole. There are valid positions on both sides.

I just want to point out that Steam/GOG/Impulse is putting a new spin on things. I certainly nod to Iain's point about that chat factor (a constant topic here at the library, speeding up processing time to get bestsellers out so people can discuss them), I would rather be able to discuss whatever titles with you guys while they're relevant. But in general I can't go around buying retail price games for that convenience.

Normally that meant a lost sale with me, because unless the game was really good, it would get picked apart and I'd be the wiser and not buy the title. With stuff like the steam xmas sale, I bought more games over that period than I have in years of gaming.

I guess my point is, maybe the compromise is to make shitty, intrusive, activated, whatever DRM for the hot period to get that initial sales rush and stave off the inevitable piracy. Then in a year or two, dump it on a digital distro, drm-free. Also, Stardock's method is pretty cool: digital download with a mailed hard copy, best of both worlds.

I think there's a way through the morass of opinion on both sides to have a better world for gamers.

[schild]

I'm not going to wade into the shithole.

But then

I just want to point out that Steam/GOG/Impulse is putting a new spin on things. I certainly nod to Iain's point about that chat factor (a constant topic here at the library, speeding up processing time to get bestsellers out so people can discuss them), I would rather be able to discuss whatever titles with you guys while they're relevant. But in general I can't go around buying retail price games for that convenience.

Normally that meant a lost sale with me, because unless the game was really good, it would get picked apart and I'd be the wiser and not buy the title. With stuff like the steam xmas sale, I bought more games over that period than I have in years of gaming.

I guess my point is, maybe the compromise is to make shitty, intrusive, activated, whatever DRM for the hot period to get that initial sales rush and stave off the inevitable piracy. Then in a year or two, dump it on a digital distro, drm-free. Also, Stardock's method is pretty cool: digital download with a mailed hard copy, best of both worlds.

I think there's a way through the morass of opinion on both sides to have a better world for gamers.

:(

[Sky]

I'm not going to wade into the shithole.

But then

I meant debating whether piracy or DRM is evil.

[Threash]

I'm not going to wade into the shithole.

But then

I meant debating whether piracy or DRM is evil.

They are both evil, the difference is one fucks us and the other fucks the stupid corporations that fuck us.

[Ratman_tf]

Consoles games sell more units and will continue to sell more units because the boxes that run them are fucking cheap. And tbh, you get what you pay for.

You forgot something else - consoles just work.

 

[Azazel]

if people weren't able to pirate a game then are youreally saying that a decent percentage of the people who wanted to play it and would have pirated it normally wouldn't buy it instead?

I think this is correct, yes. I'd actually say a significant number of those people wouln't buy it instead, rather than "decent".
There are a few exceptions, but the majority of those are super-AAA titles (GTA etc), and even then, I'd go with "decent percentage".

In my experience, the biggest pirates of games fall into two categories

1) Kids (and their parents). Usually between 10-23. They buy games when they can, but with little disposable income and a lot of free time,they can play more than they can pay. Their parents (Joe and Josephine sixpack) aren't gamers, so they'll put forth an investment of $1-200 to get a playstation or Xbox etc chipped so then they save the money later on their kids' games. Note the parents don't give a flying sideways fuck. These guys don't usually own a killer or even decent gaming PC, but if they do, rest assured that the 14+ year old knows how to torrent. This mentality can last into the 30's (at least) but when it does, you've got guys who just don't give a fuck, and probably won't be willing to pay for much. Ever.

2) "Collectors". I've known a few of these guys. They pirate everything in sight. While they play a few things, their main objective is to have a copy of everything.


Now this is coloured both my my own experiences growing up and the fact that I'm a teacher (and I've taught Primary, Secondary, Special P-12). And I guess my experiences, anecdotal as they are can easily be brushed aside, because after all, the game buying habits of 10-18 year old males (and their parents) has little interest or significance for the game industry..  


I get ticked off, because as a likely purchaser, I get fucked with the harsh DRM while the guys above me in this post are just going to sidestep it with the cracked version. Most of them were not going to purchase your game anyway.

[Azazel]

PC games have a bigger PC install base to sell to and often have cheaper titles, yet still don't typically beat console sales. They generally don't even come close. Sure, there are system spec issues, but that also makes consoles easier for people to use and game on compared to PCs.

In theory this is true. In actuality I disagree. My sister and Mum own PCs, but they're not likely to buy any games. As I mentioned in my other post, many "household" PCs can't run games for crap anyway. My #2 and #3 gaming rigs (aging by a few years, but not ancient) can't run Borderlands or half the shit I play.

OTOH, every kid has at least one console.

Actually, reading your second sentence, I'm not even sure what your point is...?

[Azazel]

OF COURSE THEY WOULDN'T.  Pirates pirate every freaking thing that comes along, they do it because its there and its easy not because they really really wanna play that one specific game.  THIS is the best real representation of what a pirate is like.

I disagree with that. Who are these video gamers who apparently do not care what they are playing and have no particular interest in specific titles?

What Threash said. Through a series of posts. As well as many others in reference to wallets full of PS1 games, etc etc -That would be everyone I knew who had a console in those years when we were in our early 20s.

woot! triple post! time to go to work!

[pants]

Does your average PC gamer (if that phrase even exists any more and they haven't all moved to consoles) know what DRM is?  I can see Ubi taking a punt that those of us in the know are a small vocal minority, and the average gamer will just buy a copy of Splinter Cell 6 or whatever, stick it in their PC, and play. 

Broadband is pretty common these days, so I can see someone in Ubi saying that its worth pissing off a small subset of potential purchasers, and the very small group of purchasers who don't have broadband (hey, we got their cash already - some of those probably wont be bothered asking for a refund), to enable less piracy.

And on a tangent, I have a mate in his mid-30s who is a TV show/movie pirate.  And he doesn't know what half of the stuff he downloads is, and will probably never watch it.  So it aint just kids who download everything they can.

[BitWarrior]

OF COURSE THEY WOULDN'T.  Pirates pirate every freaking thing that comes along, they do it because its there and its easy not because they really really wanna play that one specific game.  THIS is the best real representation of what a pirate is like.

I disagree with that. Who are these video gamers who apparently do not care what they are playing and have no particular interest in specific titles?

Late to the thread, but as an example (and I'm not saying this is the rule, just illustrating the mentality), a friend of mine pirates basically any game/movie/tv show he can get his hands on. Recalling back a few months, he had mentioned he pirated Assassins Creed II. Being personally interested in this title, a week later I asked him how the game was. He said, "Oh, I haven't played it," to my great surprise. He was merely a habitual downloader with an addiction of sorts. I'd guess 95% of the games/movies he pirated he never actually played, or at the most played for 5 minutes (basically verifying the title worked). Even games he seemed to want to play he never finished or even engaged in for very long.

My theory, in his case, is there is a perceived value of 0 for the title in question, whereas when I purchase a title I have anywhere from $30 - $60 invested, and I dearly want to get my money's worth (hence my Platinum obsession). You get what you pay for, oddly.

I can't respond if this hurts the industry or not, but I wanted to illustrate this unusual circumstance you mentioned.

[Samwise]

Also, when you were 12 years old, and used to tape shit off the radio, how much of that would you have gone out and bought with your imaginary money if you didn't own a tape deck?

Cool analogy, bro.

Honestly, I think it is.  When I was a kid I taped music I liked off the radio, or from borrowed recordings.  When the Internet and Napster came around I downloaded it instead.  And when I finally got old enough to have a job and money to spend, I started buying CDs of all those songs so I could have "legit" copies with nice cases.

My history as a consumer of video games has been very similar; most of the PC games I played as a kid were bootleg floppies and/or installed from borrowed media, but as I started to have my own spending money I started actually buying games I liked.  I remember one year I spent all the money I got for Christmas on a brand new copy of Doom II (which I'd already had a bootleg copy of) because it was my favorite game and I thought it was worth the money.

Nowadays I buy more music and games than I have time to play anyway, but IMO if like me you spent your childhood photocopying sections of library books you liked or making mix tapes or borrowing your friends' install disks, you're not on very firm moral ground for telling today's youth that they're destroying the industry by not spending their nonexistent money.

[Rasix]

edit:  Best not to get drawn into this.. in any fashion.

[Triforcer]

Piracy is ok because you wouldn't have bought what you pirated?  That's Stammering Reason #- 9, I believe-, par for the course. 

What I like is the NEW contention that pirates don't even play what they pirate and have no interest in it, its just for their collection, which I haven't heard before- its just for their gallery, with CDs encased in portrait frames in the style of the Second French Republic while the pirate and his fellow conoisseurs twirl snifters of brandy in their red velvet chairs and comment on the animations in the Bioshock '07, and the oakiness of the Wolfenstein '01.  Totally harmless!

[tgr]

Oh yay. Trolling.

I was wondering when that'd appear.

[AutomaticZen]

Does your average PC gamer (if that phrase even exists any more and they haven't all moved to consoles) know what DRM is?  I can see Ubi taking a punt that those of us in the know are a small vocal minority, and the average gamer will just buy a copy of Splinter Cell 6 or whatever, stick it in their PC, and play.  

Broadband is pretty common these days, so I can see someone in Ubi saying that its worth pissing off a small subset of potential purchasers, and the very small group of purchasers who don't have broadband (hey, we got their cash already - some of those probably wont be bothered asking for a refund), to enable less piracy.

And on a tangent, I have a mate in his mid-30s who is a TV show/movie pirate.  And he doesn't know what half of the stuff he downloads is, and will probably never watch it.  So it aint just kids who download everything they can

The average PC gamer that can run most of these newer games?  Yes, they probably know a great deal about DRM.  And those that don't?  The first time their single player game won't play because they weren't connected to the internet will send them running back to consoles.

What I like is the NEW contention that pirates don't even play what they pirate and have no interest in it, its just for their collection, which I haven't heard before- its just for their gallery, with CDs encased in portrait frames in the style of the Second French Republic while the pirate and his fellow conoisseurs twirl snifters of brandy in their red velvet chairs and comment on the animations in the Bioshock '07, and the oakiness of the Wolfenstein '01.  Totally harmless!

Or a CD spindle full of random games they *might* play, movies they *might* watch and music they *might* listen to.  Because to them, shit, it's free.  You've never taken a freebie in a store that you wouldn't care about otherwise?  And then immediately throw it away?  I spent a summer giving out detergent samples.  Half the people who took them probably never even used them, they just got thrown away or put in their car.

So let's not be obtuse.  People do stupid shit when it's free.  And if you have no clue what I'm talking about, then you're step removed from the human condition I guess.

Note:  When I tried to post this the first time, my wireless connection went down.  Twice.  And thus, no Splinter Cell PC for me.  So there are many different reasons you can come up with, but the most important to me, is I cannot play a game I would've payed for, because of this specific DRM.  I'm sure, between the games I have on Steam, some of them have DRM, but none of them would prevent me from playing.  And so I haven't cared.  This will.  So to me, your justifications are moot at best.

[UnSub]

1) Develop on consoles, which has some higher initial costs but your end product is less vulnerable to piracy so end returns will be better.

If the PC market is killed, then piracy of console games will become just as ubiquitous.  Yes, it's easier to pirate PC games, so that is where a majority focus.  When it's their only option though, the people who put the real effort into cracking these things will just find a new challenge in the consoles.

We've seen this in every market that has fought piracy.  Has anything besides iTunes (selling music cheaply and easily without headaches) worked at curbing it?

Piracy of console games is fairly widespread, particularly in certain countries - Brazil, Indonesia, the Phillipines, etc. There you can buy physical copies of console titles (I believe PS3 titles are now making their way to the streets) off street corners or in small shops.

However, it is still harder to do because you can't just log on somewhere and download whatever you want - you need to actually have a physical alteration to the console plus have the physical disks to player the games (or a HD with everything pre-installed). If PC gaming died off, I'm sure there would be a push towards it, but it wouldn't be nearly as convenient as it is with PC titles.

Oh, and while we are recounting who we know who pirates - I've got a friend who still pirates all his music. To him, it's not even worth $1 a song to buy it when he can get it free. Never underestimate the power of free.

[UnSub]

This mentality can last into the 30's (at least) but when it does, you've got guys who just don't give a fuck, and probably won't be willing to pay for much. Ever.

This is an issue as well - those who learn to pirate young and just keep doing it even when they have the money. Why? Because then they can save their money to spend on other things. Again, I know quite a few people who do that - movies, games, music, whatever.

So I don't triple-post: DRM actually has two separate issues - 1) how much it actually impacts on the user and 2) how much it is perceived to impact on the user, or its potential to impact. I played BioShock and never had any visible indication that DRM existed on that title. However, I swerved off buying STALKER: Clear Sky in part because of hostile DRM warnings. Things like SecuROM had really bad press, but it may be that if issues don't exist with Ubisoft's online systems then people start to accept it as just being there.

[NiX]

This is the worst neckbeard orgy EVER.

[Samwise]

Oh yay. Trolling.

I was wondering when that'd appear.

Luckily his imaginary interlocutors always make it unnecessary to craft a reply, as he's perfectly capable of carrying on without any help.

[SnakeCharmer]

Note:  When I tried to post this the first time, my wireless connection went down.  Twice.  And thus, no Splinter Cell PC for me.  So there are many different reasons you can come up with, but the most important to me, is I cannot play a game I would've payed for, because of this specific DRM.  I'm sure, between the games I have on Steam, some of them have DRM, but none of them would prevent me from playing.  And so I haven't cared.  This will.  So to me, your justifications are moot at best.

This one time, while playing Mirrors Edge, I got a BSOD.  Damn that Microsoft Windows XP for being required to play a game!
This one time, I bought a game, and it wouldn't play because my video card wasn't strong enough.  Damn them for requiring a video card one generation newer than the one I had!

I couldn't play those games I paid for!

 

Point being, requirements change.  You either adapt to those requirements, or you don't.  Its your choice, and the studio will feel it and do whatever they need to rectify it or they won't.

[AutomaticZen]

This one time, while playing Mirrors Edge, I got a BSOD.  Damn that Microsoft Windows XP for being required to play a game!
This one time, I bought a game, and it wouldn't play because my video card wasn't strong enough.  Damn them for requiring a video card one generation newer than the one I had!

I couldn't play those games I paid for!

 

Point being, requirements change.  You either adapt to those requirements, or you don't.  Its your choice, and the studio will feel it and do whatever they need to rectify it or they won't.

Fair enough.

Seems assbackwards to lose a sale over something that will subverted anyways.

Moot point though.  Like I said, this will be stillborn.  This isn't even near the Spore DRM, and that was drubbed right out of town for very little reason.  Or they'll just stop doing PC ports after awhile.

[Sheepherder]

but IMO if like me you spent your childhood photocopying sections of library books you liked

Some of us read when we were young.

And I will confirm that back in my college pirate days (PS One games) I did pretty much download any and everything, regardless of if I was going to play it.  I found an old CD wallet from that time while cleaning out the garage and there were some interesting choices in there.

Others played consoles.

This one time, while playing Mirrors Edge, I got a BSOD.  Damn that Microsoft Windows XP for being required to play a game!
This one time, I bought a game, and it wouldn't play because my video card wasn't strong enough.  Damn them for requiring a video card one generation newer than the one I had!

And some ate lead paint.

[KallDrexx]

I haven't seen anyone mention this, so forgive me if it has been discussed, but if you look at the latest industry trends this may very well have very little to do with piracy....

Ubisoft's argument is that this is needed so you can save your games in the cloud.  While that's a bullshit *requirement* for a single player game, it also alludes to certain things, such as a requiring an account with the game registered to your account.  That's a big deal because that means that once you tie your game to your Ubisoft account, you cannot resell the game because you will require to have the key tied to your account.  So not only do you buy a single player game that maybe lasts for 20 hours (for $50+), once you are done with it you cannot resell it at all, you are stuck with it even though you have the physical box.

This isn't even like ME2 or Dragon age, where used copies will have to pay $15 extra.  They could easily tie this system down so reselling is totally impossible (and making every one of their other games that way as well).

Now I do realize this is the case with Steam in general, but there are differences.  So far (as far as AAA developers are concerned) the only developer afaik to completely lock their software to steam accounts only is Valve itself. 

I think that's the true nature of this DRM, and it makes it even more ridiculous.  I prefer to buy all my games used precisely because I don't find most games worth the $50 price tag, I tend to buy them for $20-30 (especially single player games with little replay value, aka AC2).  This means I will be waiting a good 1.5 to 2 years until AC2 is a reasonable price, and by then why would I care.  Anyone who is like me (and i know i'm not alone in my price points) will either pirate or just not buy the game.  Either way, Ubisoft loses out.

[Koyasha]

Someone who buys a used game and someone who pirates or otherwise does not buy a game earn the publisher/developer exactly the same amount of money - zero dollars.

Why should they care whether you will play the game, if you're not going to purchase a copy from which they actually earn money?

[Triforcer]

Someone who buys a used game and someone who pirates or otherwise does not buy a game earn the publisher/developer exactly the same amount of money - zero dollars.

Why should they care whether you will play the game, if you're not going to purchase a copy from which they actually earn money?

....er, because when a copy of the game was originally purchased, they received money.  piracy and a used goods market aren't the same thing. 

[Samwise]

Most pirated media started off as one guy's purchased copy as well, does that make it okay?    

Game publishers lose HUGE amounts of money to used game sales.  If you go into your EB with $50 in your hand planning to buy a $50 new game and they talk you into buying a $40 used copy, that's a much more real $50 loss for the publisher than if some college kid downloads it. You obviously would have given your money to the publisher if not for the used option, EB is not going to buy a new $50 copy to replace the used copy they sold you (more likely they'll buy it back from you for $10 and resell it to someone else), and you're not likely to "upgrade" to a new copy if you already shelled out money for the game.

[naum]

Most pirated media started off as one guy's purchased copy as well, does that make it okay?    

Game publishers lose HUGE amounts of money to used game sales.  If you go into your EB with $50 in your hand planning to buy a $50 new game and they talk you into buying a $40 used copy, that's a much more real $50 loss for the publisher than if some college kid downloads it. You obviously would have given your money to the publisher if not for the used option, EB is not going to buy a new $50 copy to replace the used copy they sold you (more likely they'll buy it back from you for $10 and resell it to someone else), and you're not likely to "upgrade" to a new copy if you already shelled out money for the game.

What if this model was applied to cars, houses, etc.…?

Buying a used home? That's a loss for the developer. Used car? GM, Toyota, Ford, etc.… takes it in the shorts!

Of course I'm being silly, as you really don't "own" your game software — you pay a fee for the privilege of a license that temporarily (and according to the EULA, can be yanked on a whim) permits you to access said software on your machine (which I guess you do own this, but just about all the software you put on it you don't, so I guess you just own a hunk of metal and/or plastic) for a limited time and all rights belong to the game publisher.

God bless Richard Stallman.

[Samwise]

What if this model was applied to cars, houses, etc.…?

[Sheepherder]

Naum, when you contradict everything you say like that and moot your own analogy you can save everyone else a lot of time by just not posting it.

In the meantime, Triforcer attempting to rationalize used games is warming the cockles of my black heart.

[Azazel]

Piracy is ok because you wouldn't have bought what you pirated?  That's Stammering Reason #- 9, I believe-, par for the course. 

What I like is the NEW contention that pirates don't even play what they pirate and have no interest in it, its just for their collection, which I haven't heard before-

I don't believe people are saying it's "okay". They're stating that every pirated copy does not = a lost sale, and that the truth is far from it.

Second point, "new" contention. Not new at all. I've known people like that since my first days with the Commodore 64 and throughout the passage of time since. Happy to enlighten your sheltered existence, though. 

Piracy of console games is fairly widespread, particularly in certain countries - Brazil, Indonesia, the Phillipines, etc. There you can buy physical copies of console titles (I believe PS3 titles are now making their way to the streets) off street corners or in small shops.
However, it is still harder to do because you can't just log on somewhere and download whatever you want - you need to actually have a physical alteration to the console plus have the physical disks to player the games (or a HD with everything pre-installed). If PC gaming died off, I'm sure there would be a push towards it, but it wouldn't be nearly as convenient as it is with PC titles.

You missed "most of SE Asia and China including Taiwan and HK". In the more third-world m=countries you mentioned, I'm sure a trip down to the corner store is actually easier than downloading the games. You live in Australia, you know how shitty our broadband is. There's an Indian Grocery store about 3 blocks from where I live that does burnt movies (to people they know). I've never been there, but a few of my students go there. If I wanted a burnt copy of something new and somewhat mainstream, and wanted it NOW, it would actually be faster for me to go down there and buy it for $5 or whatever then to download the 750mb-1.5gb file over 4-14 hours.

Physical alterations to consoles is a simple enough affair, and is also pretty much a 1-time investment.

There's an Aussie comedian who has a bit on that - "'You wouldn't steal a car..' Well, sure, but if I could get a friend to burn me a copy...."

[Azazel]

This is the worst neckbeard orgy EVER.

pffhhh.. you're easily impressed.

This thread is nothing compared to f13 neckbeard threads on SWG, the NGE, COLLISION DETECTION, The Star Wars Prequels, Lord of the Rings: Book vs Film, and Tanks vs Mechs.


It's basically a thread we've done a bunch of times before, just redux. We'll see this thread again a couple of times before the year is out, too.

War.
War never changes.

[eldaec]

Someone who buys a used game and someone who pirates or otherwise does not buy a game earn the publisher/developer exactly the same amount of money - zero dollars.

Why should they care whether you will play the game, if you're not going to purchase a copy from which they actually earn money?

....er, because when a copy of the game was originally purchased, they received money.  piracy and a used goods market aren't the same thing. 

I don't think anyone is saying they are the same.

Only that piracy stats on lost revenue are bullshit, and the publishers are just as focused on destroying right of first sale as they are cracking down on piracy, because the secondary market costs them far more - used buyers are much more likely to buy direct from the publisher if they can't find a second hand copy (though probably still less than 50% likely) than pirates are to buy from anyone if they can't pirate.

[tgr]

Game publishers lose HUGE amounts of money to used game sales.  If you go into your EB with $50 in your hand planning to buy a $50 new game and they talk you into buying a $40 used copy, that's a much more real $50 loss for the publisher than if some college kid downloads it. You obviously would have given your money to the publisher if not for the used option, EB is not going to buy a new $50 copy to replace the used copy they sold you (more likely they'll buy it back from you for $10 and resell it to someone else), and you're not likely to "upgrade" to a new copy if you already shelled out money for the game.

Who cares if someone buys a used copy instead of a new copy? It's common for books, I don't see people bitching about people selling (or hell, GIVING or LENDING) a book to others, what makes games so damn special that rules regarding "THOU SHALT NOT RESELL" are actually even considered being allowed?

I guess we'll have to make libraries illegal as well, as it's obviously detrimental to new book sales.



edit: additionally, some of the youths who are on a budget buy a game, play through it, resell it to EB and buy another new game. That sale might have been lost if they couldn't recoup at least some of their money once they'd extracted their entertainment from the game, and everybody wins.

[Samwise]

Game publishers lose HUGE amounts of money to used game sales.  If you go into your EB with $50 in your hand planning to buy a $50 new game and they talk you into buying a $40 used copy, that's a much more real $50 loss for the publisher than if some college kid downloads it. You obviously would have given your money to the publisher if not for the used option, EB is not going to buy a new $50 copy to replace the used copy they sold you (more likely they'll buy it back from you for $10 and resell it to someone else), and you're not likely to "upgrade" to a new copy if you already shelled out money for the game.

Who cares if someone buys a used copy instead of a new copy? It's common for books, I don't see people bitching about people selling (or hell, GIVING or LENDING) a book to others, what makes games so damn special that rules regarding "THOU SHALT NOT RESELL" are actually even considered being allowed?

I guess we'll have to make libraries illegal as well, as it's obviously detrimental to new book sales.

The main difference with physical books is that there's a noticeable difference in quality between a new book and a book that's been read a hundred times, and hence a strong incentive to buy new rather than used.  What makes digital media special is that it doesn't tend to degrade with use and it can be duplicated with no loss in quality, so there is frequently very little benefit to buying a new copy.

I dp agree that if letting more than one person use one piece of media without paying separate fees to the copyright holder is intrinsically evil we should be torching those commie libraries first and foremost.