Spiderman The Reboot

[Teleku]

I actually thought the second Hulk movie was pretty good.  I don't understand the hate I've been seeing from some people.

[LK]

It wasn't big enough. That's why there is hate. It is like an MMO that earns a profit but isn't WoW successful.

[sickrubik]

I thought the CG fight scene with Abomination was stupid. It really ruined the whole thing for me, sadly. Much like the end of the Ang Lee version.

I will say, that it probably doesn't help that I've never really liked the Hulk character.

[LK]

Hulk, like any character in comics, is one with an excellent premise / origin that suffers from not having proper execution / no "wrap it up, B!" to make it consistently good. All they do is EXIST; they don't have any interesting goals or changes that reevaluate those goals. Banner always out for a cure, Spidey always trying to unfuck a life that is purposely fucked up, Batman always trying to stop crime.

[Johny Cee]

What more could be said about this that we all don't already understand? If Spider-man was made in Japan or some other country (_{Maybe I'm horribly, horribly wrong, but for fuck's sake, I must be right somehow)} -- a country with a culture of media producers that didn't give a shit about status quo and wanted to create a compelling story with a finite length instead of a franchise with gob-smackingly stupid restarts and making every effort to keep the money machine running -- they'd have something legendary that would stand the test of time and could be looked back fondly upon. Nowadays they're making movie decisions that if they don't keep this going tomorrow then *gasp* they might actually have to come up with something original instead of leveraging something people already know and that has been retread for nearly FIFTY YEARS.

You mean the country that gave us the 500 episode fighting genre with cascading power levels?  Or has been plagairizing itself with mech series over and over and over?

Shit, look at Berserk. Kentaro Miura's 20 years in and he's still telling the same damn epic story that blows most other media out of the water. The sad thing is this guy may not finish it in his lifetime because of the long production cycle. But what we get will be worth it.

If whatever the third chapter of the Batman saga (Batman Begins -> Dark Knight -> ) doesn't feature some sort of ENDING that wraps-up the themes and story that was built up in the first two chapters, then we're going to have another Spider-Man. I know that's not going to happen. I know the Batman License needs to have something major produced for it every 2-3 years. But it's because Batman along with all the other comics is a franchise that must be continually redone or used to tell stories instead of something more normal and capable of being considered "a complete work."

You're complaining about serial fiction being serial.  Comic stories are about an archetypal hero that strikes some chord confronting a set theme.  Conan and civilization versus savagery, Batman and the individual's sense of powerlessness in the face of wider society, Spider-man and responsibility, the X-men and teen estrangement from adult society (or minority estrangement from a hetero white society).

You can't have a real resolution. Spider-man doesn't work if he isn't constantly conflicted between doing what's right and doing what's best for himself.  If the police force and society was good and efficacious, there would be no need for a masked vigilante. 

[LK]

You mean the country that gave us the 500 episode fighting genre with cascading power levels?  Or has been plagairizing itself with mech series over and over and over?

Manga > Anime. If you're referring to Gundam, that's like complaining Final Fantasy always has Chocobos. They are still mixing up the worlds, characters, and basic overall storyline between each series. They also have way more parody and fan-service works that get on television.

You're complaining about serial fiction being serial.  Comic stories are about an archetypal hero that strikes some chord confronting a set theme.  Conan and civilization versus savagery, Batman and the individual's sense of powerlessness in the face of wider society, Spider-man and responsibility, the X-men and teen estrangement from adult society (or minority estrangement from a hetero white society).

You can't have a real resolution. Spider-man doesn't work if he isn't constantly conflicted between doing what's right and doing what's best for himself.  If the police force and society was good and efficacious, there would be no need for a masked vigilante.

Curious. Does Conan have a set continuity, or is it extremely ambiguous, not really featuring any continuity between stories? I have a much higher opinion of Conan than the others you mentioned.

[Johny Cee]

You mean the country that gave us the 500 episode fighting genre with cascading power levels?  Or has been plagairizing itself with mech series over and over and over?

Manga > Anime. If you're referring to Gundam, that's like complaining Final Fantasy always has Chocobos. They are still mixing up the worlds, characters, and basic overall storyline between each series. They also have way more parody and fan-service works that get on television.

Every mech series I've seen a part of is some combination of poorly adjusted super- teens with angst, big robots fighting (cue WUA tanks vs mechs), and pseudo-deep philosophy.  The Gundam nonsense was the worst, outside of big robots fighting. 

My favorite anime, noting the fact I don't particularly enjoy or watch many of them, is Bebop...  which was largely episodic outside of a couple story episodes and the ending.  They could still go back and make a couple of series by shuffling in seasons before the big death (like the movie), or by having a remarkable survival after the final episode.

You're complaining about serial fiction being serial.  Comic stories are about an archetypal hero that strikes some chord confronting a set theme.  Conan and civilization versus savagery, Batman and the individual's sense of powerlessness in the face of wider society, Spider-man and responsibility, the X-men and teen estrangement from adult society (or minority estrangement from a hetero white society).

You can't have a real resolution. Spider-man doesn't work if he isn't constantly conflicted between doing what's right and doing what's best for himself.  If the police force and society was good and efficacious, there would be no need for a masked vigilante.

Curious. Does Conan have a set continuity, or is it extremely ambiguous, not really featuring any continuity between stories? I have a much higher opinion of Conan than the others you mentioned.

The original Howard stuff is all I've really read.  There isn't a whole lot of continuity, besides the fact that Conan goes from wandering barbarian on to king in later life.  Conan was largely whatever he needed to be to fit the story.  Thief, mercenary, barbarian, king, caravan guard, palace guard, warlord, Pirate!, whatever.

The point is that Conan is the reformed barbarian, and he sees how fragile civilization and society actually is, even if he can never really belong.  Howard sets up a background cyclical theme of savagery to civilization to decadence to apocalypse.  Rinse and repeat.

[LK]

It's funny howi I've never cared about continuity in Conan stories but I do for comics. Maybe because fucking with continuity is such a big deal for comics.

[Johny Cee]

It's funny howi I've never cared about continuity in Conan stories but I do for comics. Maybe because fucking with continuity is such a big deal for comics.

Comics are told with linear continuity, so every now and then they have to reset.  I mean, what if Gotham is finally a shiny happy utopia?  Or mutants are finally accepted? Or Peter Parker is happily married and successful?

That's when you get time bullets, or deals with Mephisto, or whatever that Scarlet Witch nonsense was.  Most of the time, they suck.  But they get the storyline back to where it needs to be to work on the theme that everyone reads the books for.

Short stories reset, generally, before every story.  Or the continuity doesn't matter until the final arc, like in Elric and Conan stories.  For instance Watson's marital status in Sherlock Holmes stories.  He's married in some, divorced sometimes, married again.

[Ingmar]

It's funny howi I've never cared about continuity in Conan stories but I do for comics. Maybe because fucking with continuity is such a big deal for comics.

Comics are told with linear continuity, so every now and then they have to reset.  I mean, what if Gotham is finally a shiny happy utopia?  Or mutants are finally accepted? Or Peter Parker is happily married and successful?

That's when you get time bullets, or deals with Mephisto, or whatever that Scarlet Witch nonsense was.  Most of the time, they suck.  But they get the storyline back to where it needs to be to work on the theme that everyone reads the books for.

Short stories reset, generally, before every story.  Or the continuity doesn't matter until the final arc, like in Elric and Conan stories.  For instance Watson's marital status in Sherlock Holmes stories.  He's married in some, divorced sometimes, married again.

Re: Watson,

[UnSub]

I actually thought the second Hulk movie was pretty good.  I don't understand the hate I've been seeing from some people.

Both films had the same level of flaws, just in different areas. Personally "Hulk" was more memorable and enjoyable than "Incredible Hulk".

[stray]

I liked the first Hulk more. Bana and Norton were both good for the part, I think, but..  Well the second was more about having one's back against the wall, or some shit, while the first was all about RAGE. And Banner's (not just the Hulk's) own dormant rage. Also, Nick Nolte hasn't been nuttier. Actually, he was never nutty before. That was always Busey's schtick. So it was funny to see him look worse than even Busey.

[edit] Eh, I think both takes are cool, but the Norton one was probably more in line with the comics.

[Johny Cee]

It's funny howi I've never cared about continuity in Conan stories but I do for comics. Maybe because fucking with continuity is such a big deal for comics.

Comics are told with linear continuity, so every now and then they have to reset.  I mean, what if Gotham is finally a shiny happy utopia?  Or mutants are finally accepted? Or Peter Parker is happily married and successful?

That's when you get time bullets, or deals with Mephisto, or whatever that Scarlet Witch nonsense was.  Most of the time, they suck.  But they get the storyline back to where it needs to be to work on the theme that everyone reads the books for.

Short stories reset, generally, before every story.  Or the continuity doesn't matter until the final arc, like in Elric and Conan stories.  For instance Watson's marital status in Sherlock Holmes stories.  He's married in some, divorced sometimes, married again.

Re: Watson,

That depends on whether you hold to the two marriage or three marriage Watson theory, of course! 

[Yegolev]

What more could be said about this that we all don't already understand? If Spider-man was made in Japan or some other country (_{Maybe I'm horribly, horribly wrong, but for fuck's sake, I must be right somehow)} -- a country with a culture of media producers that didn't give a shit about status quo and wanted to create a compelling story with a finite length instead of a franchise with gob-smackingly stupid restarts and making every effort to keep the money machine running -- they'd have something legendary that would stand the test of time and could be looked back fondly upon.

Hahaha.  This calls for a GIS link.
http://images.google.com/images?q=supaidaman

[Sheepherder]

Comics are told with linear continuity, so every now and then they have to reset.  I mean, what if Gotham is finally a shiny happy utopia?  Or mutants are finally accepted? Or Peter Parker is happily married and successful?

You then:

a) Show how broken and mindfucked your hero is.
b) Kill him.  Or trail off in a fight with hopeless odds.
c) Have him live happily for a while, until his past catches up with him.
d) End the fucking story.  No, really.  Just end it.  Like so: "The End."

[Azazel]

Bad idea. They are treating the movie like a comic - we'll just reboot every few years so we don't have to think up interesting stuff for a new movie. Fuck that. Comic fans will buy it because we like our monthly dramas. Movie fans will tell Sony to go fuck itself.

hahaahah you really think so? Movie "buffs", or People Who Like Serious Film may or may not see it, but they'll look down their nose at it. Comic fans will watch it anyway. The General Movie-Going Pubic will go along and watch it regardless because it's a big summer blockbuster and they've heard of Spider-Man. Besides, those other movies with Toby McWhatsisname probably came out when they were little kids.

[Johny Cee]

Comics are told with linear continuity, so every now and then they have to reset.  I mean, what if Gotham is finally a shiny happy utopia?  Or mutants are finally accepted? Or Peter Parker is happily married and successful?

You then:

a) Show how broken and mindfucked your hero is.
b) Kill him.  Or trail off in a fight with hopeless odds.
c) Have him live happily for a while, until his past catches up with him.
d) End the fucking story.  No, really.  Just end it.  Like so: "The End."

You're making a story argument when it isn't about story, it's about theme.  It's like complaining that a story based series/film has weak or cardboard characters.  Or a character based series has repetitive stories/plots.

If you focus in on one aspect, you can cover it with greater depth.  If you try to do all of them in a limited time frame you end up covering them all only in a broad manner or poorly, and some subjects are just impossible to address.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Bad idea. They are treating the movie like a comic - we'll just reboot every few years so we don't have to think up interesting stuff for a new movie. Fuck that. Comic fans will buy it because we like our monthly dramas. Movie fans will tell Sony to go fuck itself.

hahaahah you really think so? Movie "buffs", or People Who Like Serious Film may or may not see it, but they'll look down their nose at it. Comic fans will watch it anyway. The General Movie-Going Pubic will go along and watch it regardless because it's a big summer blockbuster and they've heard of Spider-Man. Besides, those other movies with Toby McWhatsisname probably came out when they were little kids.

It'll have a big opening but no legs. People will ask how it was and they'll say "a lot like the first movie"

[Sheepherder]

You're making a story argument when it isn't about story, it's about theme.

...And when you've exhausted a theme, you end the story.  Funny how that works.

[Velorath]

Marc Webb, whose only notable release is 500 days of Summer, has been signed on to direct.

[HaemishM]

But he did music videos too! 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Trainwreck of epic proportions incoming. I'm expecting old captain america bad here.

[stray]

Music vid directors aren't necessarily bad. Some have turned out to be awesome. Spike Jonze, David Fincher... Mark Romanek (did the NIN Closer vid among other things) is doing that new Wolfman flick. Not music vids, but Zack Snyder (300, Watchmen) was heavy into commercials before. If anything, these type of directors have cultivated a lot of style like those who do shorts, and at the same time, aren't exactly artfaggy either.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Music vid directors aren't necessarily bad. Some have turned out to be awesome. Spike Jonze, David Fincher... Mark Romanek (did the NIN Closer vid among other things) is doing that new Wolfman flick. Not music vids, but Zack Snyder (300, Watchmen) was heavy into commercials before. If anything, these type of directors have cultivated a lot of style like those who do shorts, and at the same time, aren't exactly artfaggy either.

The very fact they are gambling this franchise on a nearly unknown director speaks volumes as to what kind of quality and support the movie will be given.

[stray]

That's very true.. I think all of those other guys didn't get that kind of break.

Looks like he's done a fuckton of videos though from different genres. Sounds like the "trusty journeyman" type. heh

[Velorath]

There have been rumors going around in the last day or so that they're trying to do this on a budget of $80 million.  For reference, the first Spider-man had a budget of $139 mil, the second was around $200 mil, and the third was $259 mil.  I've also heard rumors that Raimi was trying to get a budget of around $300 mil for #4.

[Lakov_Sanite]

like i said, this is going to be old style captain america. some movies you can do on the cheap and it wont affect quality, super hero movies arent ones you can do this on.

[stray]

Just thinking here, but they should really like.. "consolidate" resources and set pieces for all of these Marvel films. Considering that almost all of Marvel's shit is based in NYC, you could probably re-use a lot of things to save money. Err, not sure what exactly, but..

As for this movie, it's based in highschool again, so a lot of story can probably afford to be a little cheaper.

[Velorath]

I won't say that it can't be done on that budget.  After all, look at District 9 which only had a $30 million budget.  From the sounds of it, they're gong to focus more on the high school drama than they are the super-hero stuff (some are saying that they're using Ultimate Spider-man as the model here), which would limit how many special effects scenes they need.

I just don't have a lot of faith in Marc Webb to deliver, but maybe he'll surprise me.  I thought it was pretty funny though that James Cameron said in an interview recently that he would have never done the Spider-man reboot if they had asked him since it feels like sloppy seconds.

[stray]

Save James Cameron for a badass Atlantean/Sub-Mariner movie. :)

I heard he's thinking of doing a Fantastic Voyage remake, which would be similar, I guess.

[Ubvman]

Save James Cameron for a badass Atlantean/Sub-Mariner movie. :)

I heard he's thinking of doing a Fantastic Voyage remake, which would be similar, I guess.

Battle Angel is what has been bandied about as Cameron's next project. Also there has been talk of him helming the Avatar sequels, but I am not so interested in that. On the other hand, he may just wait another decade for his next film and do a lot of documentaries in the meantime.

Ultimate Spider-man the movie? Like everyone else said above - just too soon.

[UnSub]

"(500) Days of Summer" was well handled. Getting Webber as a director suggests they want to do more of the romance between Parker and Watson. Some of the commercial success of the first film was attributed to it being accessible to guys and girls. After all, I think "Spider-Man" starts off with "This is about a girl".

[Lakov_Sanite]

"(500) Days of Summer" was well handled. Getting Webber as a director suggests they want to do more of the romance between Parker and Watson. Some of the commercial success of the first film was attributed to it being accessible to guys and girls. After all, I think "Spider-Man" starts off with "This is about a girl".

It's perfectly clear they want to turn spider-man into twilight but that's a very bad idea.

[Trippy]

Spider-Man 11101.

[stray]

I'm not sure what's worse, making it Twilight, or the geeks who wig out about the first one for "organic web shooters".


That said! Lot of chicks already like Spider-Man as it is.. making it more appealing on that level isn't necessarily a bad idea. It need not be Twilight to do so.