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Author Topic: Of the lame things I've heard in comics... [Captain America]  (Read 11617 times)
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on: January 06, 2010, 07:01:44 PM

... time bullets ranks right up there. Captain America was shot with time bullets so he didn't die and is just lost in time.

Hello, Batman.

Sir T
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Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 07:28:06 PM

I guess they don't want to let go of their original frat boy. I mean Rodgers was supposed to have been a super soldier in ww2. The guy would be in his 50s minimum by now. Why they cant leave dead people just be dead I'll never know.

But yeah Time bullets. I guess those are standard issue for bad guys now   why so serious?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 06:20:42 AM by Sir T »

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Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 01:48:16 AM

TIME BULLETS
TIME BULLETS
TIME BULLETS
TIME BULLETS
TIME BULLETS


Oh holy god fuck you Marvel.

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Ironwood
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Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 02:25:17 AM

Was this written by Russel T Davies ?

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Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 02:53:33 AM

Actually, I think the worst thing about all this is that they realized that they'd need an extra issue to finish the story, but that the extra month that would take would go past the start of Siege, Marvel's next big crossover that nobody other than Bendis fans gives a shit about.  They figured that this would be a problem since people might get confused as to who was in the Captain America suit in Seige so they worked out a compromise... which is that they'd release the Epilogue issue of Captain America Reborn (sub-titled Who Will Wield the Shield or something to that effect) the month before Captain America Reborn finishes.  So they've essentially already given away the end of the mini-series despite there still being one issue left.  Way to plan ahead guys.
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Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 03:25:47 AM

Sound like Ages of Apocalypse. Due to scheduling problems all the parts of that were release out of order IIRC. So it was a story told across different books except half the books were delayed and the chronology was completely random.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
NowhereMan
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Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 05:07:25 AM

Yeah, the big reveal of Captain America Reborn was at the end of an Iron Man issue. This was dumb but wouldn't have actually been as dumb if they'd made some remarks about it at the time (shot with a weird gun, etc.) rather than just suddenly changing from 'he dead' to 'he stuck in time'. It also makes that moment when Steve's ghost appeared to Thor seem really fucking odd. What's also weird is they've gone for almost the exact same thing as Batman's death (lost in time) which, even if it was planned before that came about, was revealed afterwards and just looks like Marvel copying DC.

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Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 11:10:52 AM

Time bullets. Holy Christ. Facepalm

Sir T
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Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 01:20:01 PM

I think everyone can agree that the time bullets she used had to be dum dums.  why so serious?

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Evildrider
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Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 02:14:57 PM

WTS Time Bullets 5000gp cheaper then on the AH!   Ohhhhh, I see.
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Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 02:44:40 PM

Time bullets would be a lot cooler if you used them to shoot someone and they actually killed the target X years in the past.  Like shoot the Hulk with a couple of time bullets and they kill Banner dead when he's like 20 years old, before he became the Hulk.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

These though...  why would someone even invent them again?  Facepalm

Over and out.
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Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 02:55:52 PM

The stupidest part of the whole idea is the target - it's not like he's invulnerable, or even really more than an exceptionally well-conditioned Olympic level athlete. His costume may be a type of chainmail, but it's not invulnerable to bullets. Why would you need to invent anything other than a fucking hollowpoint to kill him, especially if you were able to get the shooter to be someone who could get close to him with a gun that he wouldn't suspect? Answer: You fucking wouldn't, but they had to come up with some idea for how they were bringing him back.

Best explanation for a resurrected character IMO was Kevin Smith's Green Arrow. He didn't explain it at all. The character was just alive again one day. Though I think Infinite Crisis made that a part of the continuity punches that Superboy-Prime threw later on, but Smith can't be blamed for that. Still, even continuity punches are better than TIME BULLETS.

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Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 03:03:09 PM

Whenever you guys talk about comics it all sounds so fucking retarded and childish I can't even fucking believe adults are into this shit.
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Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 03:16:24 PM

Whenever you guys talk about comics it all sounds so fucking retarded and childish I can't even fucking believe adults are into this shit.

And every time you post I can't believe that you've outlasted similar rejects like Dash and Broughden, but that's life I guess.
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Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 03:29:29 PM

I'm not talking about one-off graphic novels that tell a story.  I'm talking about the serials that go on for 50 years and have told all the same stories and fought all the same battles and have been riddled with so many continuity changes and story resets that they don't even matter anymore.  And somehow numb-nuts like you keep lapping it up. 
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Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 03:52:38 PM

Well, the thing is, the bullets weren't meant to kill him, just to lose him in time so the Red Skull could take over his body or whatever. Anyway, it's uninspired, but guys, this is what serial fictions of ALL KINDS do. Bitch about this and you might as well dump on Sherlock Holmes, Star Trek, what have you as well. Some resurrections are better handled than others, but all of them are inevitable. It's like a law of cultural thermodynamics. The point is never that there are contrivances, the question is whether the contrivances lend themselves to a halfway decent story. On this point, the specific Captain American Reborn book is pretty ho-hum, but Brubaker's work on the main Captain America book has been pretty good.

Siege, actually, is kind of interesting to me. Dark Reign has been handled a lot better than I would have guessed.
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Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 06:29:52 PM

If Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a story where Sherlock Holmes was shot with time bullets and sent through history so that Professor Moriarty could take over his body, then I would invent a real life time machine just to punch Doyle in the face, sir.

This isn't about comics being stupid - they can be and have a long history of being so - but about how modern Marvel has handled one of their key characters in an event everyone knew would happen. Captain America was coming back someday, so the trick became how to bring him back in an interesting way (particularly since his death was made to be a big deal and there have been consequences from it e.g. Bucky / Winter Soldier becoming CapAm and apparently being interesting in doing so).

Instead we've got a retcon that apes exactly what happened to Batman - sent through time - and one that makes several other stories completely wrong in retrospect. And it's comics - you can pull off some insane stuff in them and people will go, "Cool". Time bullets are lazy, bottom-of-the-barrel writing. Hell, a secret clone of Rogers released by the Red Skull / SHIELD who overcomes his programming to be the 'real' Rogers is more interesting than time bullets.

Margalis
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Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 10:20:20 PM

Whenever you guys talk about comics it all sounds so fucking retarded and childish I can't even fucking believe adults are into this shit.

And every time you post I can't believe that you've outlasted similar rejects like Dash and Broughden, but that's life I guess.

He made a fair point.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 03:59:49 AM

Time bullets pale in comparison to frankencastle.
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Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 07:47:32 AM

See, I think Frankencastle is amusingly whacko. It's not as if it's less credible than a criminal-hating serial killer who has somehow survived endless violent confrontations with armed men. Or a man swinging on spider webs who doesn't pull his arms out of his socket, super-strength or not. Or...you get the point. The superheroic form, at least in comics, is full of crazy shit that doesn't hold up for a second if you choose to ask questions about it. It's not about the nuttiness of the contrivance, it's about the storytelling that goes on around it. Jason Aaron's current run on Ghost Rider has a bad angel taking over Heaven, an Antichrist who has a portal into Hell through a failed super-villain's stomach, a villainous motorcyclist who wears a laser-shooting giant eyeball on his head, an order of gun-wielding nuns, and so on. And it's awesome. Captain America Reborn is not awesome, but not because time bullets are involved, just because it's dull and bland and no efforts were made to really set it up cleverly at the time of the original story.
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Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 07:07:27 PM

They've got Punisher MAX to tell good Punisher stories now, regular Punisher can thus join the craziness that is the rest of the Marvel universe. Also I want to second the decent opinion of Dark Reign. Compared to the shit that was Civil War and the Skrulls this has actually been pretty solid and an actually interesting idea. I just wish it wasn't ending with total insanity and Osborne literally doing something bugfuck stupid. The only downside to it really was screwing with the awesomeness that Thunderbolts had been (the only comic with actually intelligent, self-preservation centred henchmen). Resurrections have been happening in serial things for ages, pretty much ever since authors decided they wanted to end things/editors realised deaths can boost circulation/viewers and have then wanted to use popular characters again. Sometimes they get done well but Cap was fucktarded simply because they must have known they were bringing him back and could really have set something better up. Either change the set-up or change how he's coming back, don't got with two halves that don't seem to fit together.

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Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 08:02:44 PM

Punisher MAX is all I ask from comics. The rest of its shit and TIME BULLETS can go to hell.

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Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 09:47:10 PM

I think its the contrast between MAX and normal that really brings out how shit the normal is.
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Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 09:04:39 AM

I don't even read comics but really, time bullets?

People wonder why the industry is going downhill and this is all the evidence I need. When people get this lazy, you can't expect anything less.

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Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 09:23:25 AM

I'm still waiting to hear about the wonderful past moment in the history of superhero comics where everything was plotted tightly and there were no contrivances.
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Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 12:31:34 PM

It happens. There are good runs by creative teams, that are usually fucked all to hell by hacks like Bendis retconning Skrulls in for no good goddamn reason.

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Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 01:48:37 PM

The good runs are still good. I still enjoy Simonson's Thor. You don't want to take continuity so seriously that later bullshit invalidates previously good stuff.
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Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 01:59:50 PM

I think the worst moments in comics generally come from writers that come up with an interesting/hackneyed story they want to tell and set about retconning previous stuff to better fit with what they want to do rather than make the effort to actually tell their story in line with continuity. Fuck there's a million ways that they could have brought Steve back that involved him being actually shot and killed but they decided to go with Time Bullets. It means having to claim that shit like Steve appearing to Thor was some Asgardian hallucination or some shit which would be fine if there was any reason beyond 'it doesn't make sense with our odd and slightly tenuous story telling choice. A nerdier example would be DC's decision to have Maxwell Lord have been dedicated to wiping out and discrediting superheroes the whole time he was running the Justice League. They could have gone with 'good man slowly driven to madness' type thing but instead just decided to rewrite him as a straight up villian for no fucking reason. The fact that a number of times this gets done involves fucking around with continuity that defined characters and was put in place by good writers just makes it even more of a kick in the crotch.

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Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 02:09:01 PM

I think the worst moments in comics generally come from writers that come up with an interesting/hackneyed story they want to tell and set about retconning previous stuff to better fit with what they want to do rather than make the effort to actually tell their story in line with continuity. Fuck there's a million ways that they could have brought Steve back that involved him being actually shot and killed but they decided to go with Time Bullets. It means having to claim that shit like Steve appearing to Thor was some Asgardian hallucination or some shit which would be fine if there was any reason beyond 'it doesn't make sense with our odd and slightly tenuous story telling choice.

Hold on now.   I agree that the time bullets stuff is shit, but from the restart of Cap's series, going through the Winter Soldier stuff, Cap's death, and Reborn, this has all been Ed Brubaker's story (and I'd say about 90% of it has been good).  You can complain about the time bullets, but the fact that it conflicted with some stuff some other writer did in Thor sounds like an editorial oversight more than any fault of Brubaker's.
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Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 02:13:02 PM

That's Marvel in a nutshell under Joe Quesada - editorial oversight. But when your Editor in Chief openly states that continuity doesn't matter, I suppose oversight is the nice way of saying they don't give a fuck so long as it sells comics.

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Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 02:25:10 PM

That's Marvel in a nutshell under Joe Quesada - editorial oversight. But when your Editor in Chief openly states that continuity doesn't matter, I suppose oversight is the nice way of saying they don't give a fuck so long as it sells comics.

Sadly, he might actually be right in some respects.  Pissing in the face of Spider-man continuity with One More Day has actually had positive long-term effects on Amazing Spider-man which has been getting good reviews on a near consistent basis since then.
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Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 10:11:53 PM

The point about Brubaker's run on CA is pretty much what I'm saying. If I said, "Oh yeah, Bucky actually wasn't killed by a point-blank explosion, he just lost an arm and was fished out of the ocean by the Soviets and brainwashed into being a secret assassin who was kept in suspended animation except when on missions and nobody's ever mentioned him before despite the fact that he and the Black Widow were screwing as Soviet agents and he was doing shit all around the Marvel Universe for decades and now Captain America has fixed it all with the Cosmic Cube and oh by the way Bucky wasn't just a kid sidekick back during World War II, he was a deadly commando who did all the dirty work that Cap couldn't do"...people would go, "wow, that's totally contrived". But Brubaker wrote it really well, it works, and so I have no problem with perhaps the most sacrosanct comics death being undone.
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Reply #32 on: January 12, 2010, 01:03:10 AM

Teams do seem to cycle through a lot faster than they used to, and editors are more willing to let each new team kill off characters, bring back old characters and change the tone of the book to whatever they want.

I think that model really took off during the early Image days where everyone was chasing hotshot artists. Hey, Jim Lee wants to draw such and such character, let's make it happen! Rather than being stewards of a long-running brand editors shifted more towards getting hot creative teams.

It's always been the case that new teams brought along pet changes but the scope and frequency of those changes seems larger to me than it did in older comics.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #33 on: January 12, 2010, 01:40:49 AM

Teams do seem to cycle through a lot faster than they used to, and editors are more willing to let each new team kill off characters, bring back old characters and change the tone of the book to whatever they want.

Depends on the team.  Brubaker, Bendis, Pak, Johns, Peter David, and various other writers all have a habit of doing long runs on books.
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Reply #34 on: January 12, 2010, 02:25:44 AM

Was this written by Russel T Davies ?

No, that would be wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey bullets.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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