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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Comics  |  Topic: Of the lame things I've heard in comics... [Captain America] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Of the lame things I've heard in comics... [Captain America]  (Read 11612 times)
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #35 on: January 13, 2010, 01:12:16 PM

too bad one couldn't shoot oneself with these and go back in time to kick the writing team in the jimmy
Azazel
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Reply #36 on: January 19, 2010, 01:45:47 PM

I have to agree in principle with douchematic here. Near every thread I browse in this section of f13 makes me wonder how otherwise-intelligent seeming people can read that horseshit. I dunno. Comics seemed decent when I was a kid/teen reading them on a regular basis, but it really seems like since I stopped buying/reading them that they've declined into a massive clusterfuck of retcon and "let's shake things up" stupidity way beyond anything from when I was a kid reading them.

I just wiki'ed some of the stuff based off of this thread. Franken-Punisher? Wolverine's evil son? Norman Osbourne aka the original Green Goblin (wasn;t he dead like 25 years ago?) now leads the Dark Avengers while dressed up as Captain Iron America Man?

Fuuuuuuuck.

This shit be more fucked up than Star Wars and Lucas. Or Michael Bay's Transformers.

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Velorath
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Reply #37 on: January 19, 2010, 02:19:36 PM

I have to agree in principle with douchematic here. Near every thread I browse in this section of f13 makes me wonder how otherwise-intelligent seeming people can read that horseshit. I dunno. Comics seemed decent when I was a kid/teen reading them on a regular basis, but it really seems like since I stopped buying/reading them that they've declined into a massive clusterfuck of retcon and "let's shake things up" stupidity way beyond anything from when I was a kid reading them.

I just wiki'ed some of the stuff based off of this thread. Franken-Punisher? Wolverine's evil son? Norman Osbourne aka the original Green Goblin (wasn;t he dead like 25 years ago?) now leads the Dark Avengers while dressed up as Captain Iron America Man?

Fuuuuuuuck.

This shit be more fucked up than Star Wars and Lucas. Or Michael Bay's Transformers.


So you stopped reading comics, wiki'ed a bunch of storylines people here have been making fun of, and come to the conclusion that comics are shit?  I guess if I stopped reading books and then wiki'ed summaries of the Twilight novels, I could safely come to the conclusion that all novels are shit?
Azazel
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Reply #38 on: January 19, 2010, 02:32:58 PM

I've kept in touch with Marvel comics on and off over the years, but whenever I have had the slightest interest in picking them up again and check them out before dropping a bunch of money on them, I see something fucktarded which puts me off them. Again. This forum only serves to reinforce that.

It might be that whole "rape of my childhood" thing that people who get upset over the Transformers films and Star Wars prequels have happen.

This doesn't equal a hatred for all comics, by far. After my years of Marvel Superhero comics stopped, I still I read Sandman and Hellblazer for years, and got quite into a number of Vertigo and Dark Horse books, including Preacher. Things like Batman one-shots and company crossovers were fine since they fit into a self-contained non-continuity. Things like Ronin, Watchmen, are as good as they ever was. And Carl Barks' (and Don Rosa's) Duck books are timeless. I kept picking up the latest Punisher books as well, and much preferred the more gritty, possibly-feasable aspect of the character and his stories rather than the silly superhero stuff (which sadly includes some of the Ennis/Dillon stuff as well). I'm sure Hellboy is still good, along with Dredd, Grendel and a bunch of other things I've never heard of. Many of which are probably still coming out of Vertigo and Dark Horse.

On the other hand, mainstream superhero books appear by all accounts to be more fucked up than they ever were. And looking back, they weren't the world's smartest reading fodder even back when I was reading them, so that's saying something.

 

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HaemishM
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Reply #39 on: January 19, 2010, 02:38:39 PM

The emphasis with most of the mainstream, big name superhero books lately has been one long series of event comics, which have required ever more torturous twists of logic to make them seem bigger than the last event. Marvel has been especially guilty of this, starting with Avengers Disassembled and continuing through into Dark Reign. It doesn't help that most of the overall stories have been written and conceived by Brian Michael "I Can't End One Story Without Setting up a Shitty Mystery for my Next Story" Bendis, with editorial direction from Joe "Never Met a Whoring Opportunity Pass Me By" Quesada.

But then DC had the dead awful Countdown series recently, after having such narrative success with Infinite Crisis and 52, and of course, the scatterbrained Final Crisis.

Azazel
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Reply #40 on: January 19, 2010, 02:47:39 PM

Yeah, I never reallly followed DC heroes in any kind of regular way (Vertigo imprint notwithstanding) so while I'm sure they're also involved in fucktardery, there aren't any titles for me to "go back" to. I did tend to buy most of the Batman crossover books, and things like Year One and TDKR, but not the ongoing series.


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NowhereMan
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Reply #41 on: January 19, 2010, 06:37:36 PM

Eh, the Frankenpunisher thing really was more a radical response to the fact that the character really wasn't doing anything. Punisher MAX was providing a really good series for Punisher doing all the sort of stuff the original character should be doing and in the main universe he simply wasn't relevant. Personally I think that would be a better reason to quietly dump him until there was an actual reason to use him in a story but it isn't totally fucked in the sense that if you actually liked the character you'd already be reading MAX instead.

The Dark Reign storyline is one that I've thought has worked better than most of the previous Marvel event stories, Osbourne is a big enough combination of charismatic character/insane evil douchebag that it's kept things on edge and entertaining (barring the occasional timeline/continuity fuckup between different titles). Of course Marvel's greatest storyline over the last few years has been in spaaaace with the Annihilation Wave thing which was actually an enjoyable and well written event. The problem with writing comics off based on some stupid (and some stupid sounding but actually workable-with-good-writing) stories is that they do also put out some good stuff. There's a lot of trash stuff but there's enough good stuff or stupid but fun stuff that I really wouldn't write off the big 2 and certainly not comics in general.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Azazel
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Reply #42 on: January 19, 2010, 08:36:21 PM

So what's Punisher MAX supposed to be these days? Punisher in the real world/not the Marvel Universe version of the reality of Earth with no Heroes or something?

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Velorath
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Reply #43 on: January 19, 2010, 08:53:08 PM

See, if you want to say that the majority of Marvel's superhero comics suck, I can get behind that.  That's not how your initial post came across though.  Plenty of good comics have been discussed here, although not so much lately (largely because the mainstream stuff is the only thing read by enough people to generate a discussion).
dusematic
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Reply #44 on: January 19, 2010, 09:29:24 PM

I have to agree in principle with douchematic here. Near every thread I browse in this section of f13 makes me wonder how otherwise-intelligent seeming people can read that horseshit. I dunno. Comics seemed decent when I was a kid/teen reading them on a regular basis, but it really seems like since I stopped buying/reading them that they've declined into a massive clusterfuck of retcon and "let's shake things up" stupidity way beyond anything from when I was a kid reading them.

I just wiki'ed some of the stuff based off of this thread. Franken-Punisher? Wolverine's evil son? Norman Osbourne aka the original Green Goblin (wasn;t he dead like 25 years ago?) now leads the Dark Avengers while dressed up as Captain Iron America Man?

Fuuuuuuuck.

This shit be more fucked up than Star Wars and Lucas. Or Michael Bay's Transformers.


People grow up and move on.  Distance provides perspective.  Where The Wild Things Are was awesome when you were five, then you grow up and realize it's a shitty picture book.  MMO's are cool until the whole "I'm playing with other people!" phenomena wears off and you realize they're just giant hamster wheels that have you chasing a carrot.  The fact is, the vast majority of comics were always childish shit, you just couldn't recognize that as a child. 
Azazel
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Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 02:01:08 AM

See, if you want to say that the majority of Marvel's superhero comics suck, I can get behind that.  That's not how your initial post came across though.  Plenty of good comics have been discussed here, although not so much lately (largely because the mainstream stuff is the only thing read by enough people to generate a discussion).

Okay, I think this post of yours and my followup puts us generally on the same page.


People grow up and move on.  Distance provides perspective. The fact is, the vast majority of comics were always childish shit, you just couldn't recognize that as a child. 

I get that. My whole point is that even with perspective and distance, I think they're actually a big more stupider than when I was a kid.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 10:43:31 AM

So what's Punisher MAX supposed to be these days? Punisher in the real world/not the Marvel Universe version of the reality of Earth with no Heroes or something?

Pretty much, I think Ennis kicked it off and it's been pretty good so long as you don't mind horrible graphic violence and themes. Also comics are not any stupider now than say the '90s with pouches for everyone and lots of grimdark storylines (some of which were good, mature stuff that comics really needed to do but a lot were adult in the same way Torchwood was). They've just got a different brand of stupid.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Azazel
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Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 08:38:58 PM

I'm talking 'bout 80's to early 90's comics. Mid-90's was when I shifted away from most superheroes into stuff like I mentioned above.
Secret Wars/II was childish-silly, but not as fucktarded as all of this appears to be.

I'll check out Punisher MAX.

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Khaldun
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Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 09:19:50 PM

Secret Wars II was not as fucktardish as what precisely? Because seriously, that's about as shitastic as superhero comics ever have been in story, in art, in concept, you name it.
LK
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Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 09:57:20 PM

Start at issue #1 with Punisher:MAX. Every 6 issue series is great but it has its own internal continuity you'll want to respect (and it will give you greater appreciation for the events that are taking place).

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Azazel
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Reply #50 on: January 21, 2010, 05:29:00 AM

SWII was really bad, no argument. But it wasn't constantly being redone and shoved back in your face. Having said, that, Civil War seems to be more retarded, for one. And I guess SWII was the forerunner for all of these endless crossover clusterfucks. So maybe it was worse. But at least it was brief.




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Khaldun
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Reply #51 on: January 21, 2010, 06:00:10 AM

A lot of what was wrong with Civil War was Millar's excesses as a writer, and some resulting bad or indifferent characterizations.

Conceptually, it's really a decent enough storytelling platform for a superhero universe. "Government requires superheroes to register and be trained; some absolutely refuse, seeing a long-term danger in having their independence compromised; others agree either because they think it's inevitable or because they think registration is a good idea."

Stack that against: "Omnipotent being wants to learn about being human. Many forced and painful crossovers ensue."

There's nothing *wrong* with the idea of an event being a company-wide story-telling arc that actually seems to move the general story of a comic-book universe forward in some manner. Quite aside from the atrocious art, sub-adolescent storytelling and paper-thin crossovers, Secret Wars II was really not that kind of event, nor were most of the ones that followed in its wake. (Even Crisis over at DC changed far less than it promised to change, kind of notoriously so, since three or four crossovers since have had to address what it didn't do).

The bad parts of what Marvel has done since Civil War aren't in the basic structure of the event storyline except for Secret Invasion, which was a tired riff on an old conceit. When Bendis or Millar isn't manhandling the story hook of these events to their own pet fetishes, some pretty good stories built up out of the event infrastructure have appeared. McDuffie and Hickman on Fantastic Four, for example, have done great stuff with the Civil War aftermath and Dark Reign as premises. Ellis' Thunderbolts was a fantastic follow-on to Civil War. Fraction's run on Iron Man has done a great job with Stark as a character having to eat a lot of humble pie for his douchbaggery in Civil War (while rebuilding the character as a hero to make up for the excesses of how Millar wrote him in the first place).

I cannot recall a single Secret Wars II tie-in that rose above embarassing. Maybe the story with Kurse in Simonson's Thor, but that was so barely a tie-in in the first place.
Teleku
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Reply #52 on: January 21, 2010, 11:05:47 AM

Start at issue #1 with Punisher:MAX. Every 6 issue series is great but it has its own internal continuity you'll want to respect (and it will give you greater appreciation for the events that are taking place).
I'd actually say start with Punisher: Born, then Issue #1 forward.  Born was fucking awesome and a good intro to this universes Punisher and what drives him.  But yeah, Punisher Max should be read beginning to end, it keeps building on itself like an on running story, and is not just episodic.

Having said that, I haven't read any of it since Ennis left.  How have the stories been?  Any noticeable drop in quality?

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Margalis
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Reply #53 on: January 23, 2010, 09:55:43 PM

What about when the Thing wrestled the Beyonder in the super hero wrestling league?

Anyway...yeah...

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #54 on: April 22, 2011, 01:07:39 AM

Thanks for the info.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #55 on: April 29, 2011, 05:13:37 PM

*edit* Bored at work. Replied to an ancient post.  awesome, for real



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Reply #56 on: May 14, 2011, 10:39:34 AM

DAAAAAMN YOUUUUUU!!!

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