Simple questions. Simple answers. Complex questions. Flow charts.

[Furiously]

I have been known to get in a group - do one pull and leave.*

*after I die horrifically, and spectacularly. I burn off the queue pvping then go back in hopefully to get a decent group.  My favorites are obvious guild groups that couldn't find a tank.

[Sheepherder]

Am I correct in assuming that, once again, Blood Craze is useless shit?

[Dren]

The issue is people when given the option still don't want to queue as anything with a high degree of responsibility. I see tons of ret pallies, shadow priests, arms/fury warriors, frost/unholy DKs, boomkins, and even ferals (lawl) queued as DPS who sit through the entire queue.

The real issue is that those people aren't recognizing that DPS now does have a responsibility just as high as tanks and healers.  CC and focus fire have everything to do with the success of instances in Cata where it was never even cared about in LK.  Tanking and healing would be no big deal if everyone plays their part correctly.  Topping the dps charts is no longer an excuse of "I'm doing my part."  None of that matters if you are causing wipes.

[Paelos]

The most frustrating part as a tank right now is that you simply can't salvage a group anymore with your own play. In Wrath, a good tank and a good healer could solve a lot of heroic problems. In this iteration, forget it. You can't put the group on your shoulders and hope for the best.

[kildorn]

The most frustrating part as a tank right now is that you simply can't salvage a group anymore with your own play. In Wrath, a good tank and a good healer could solve a lot of heroic problems. In this iteration, forget it. You can't put the group on your shoulders and hope for the best.

Which was terrible gameplay (a solid tank or healer being able to carry an entire heroic run), but made for easy LFD experiences. I could happily queue a heroic run on a protadin and waltz through.

[Paelos]

It was terrible gameplay, but I controlled my own destiny to a degree even when the RNG came up snakeyes on retarded dps. Now, you just enter into these things with a sense of hopelessness, and in about another week, you can expect that the majority of tanks will have stopped queuing all together.

[kildorn]

In a few more weeks, I suspect tanks will stop queuing due to a lack of rewards for doing it (chaos orb chance and VP for your daily is about it) because the tank rewards from the JP vendor are terrible (they have threat stats all over half the pieces. Nobody cares about threat stats anymore)

But my DK is well into the "can pull a lot of bullshit in a heroic" territory again already, and I've only got an average ilvl of around 340 equipped. There are still some bullshit bosses (Oz without a charge ability is bullshit, hell most of stonecore is bullshit. A few interrupt heavy fights where the tank can't solo interrupt), but lately I've just been running with "trap/sap whatever you want" and AE pulling the rest as long as the healer can deal with it. Give me T11 epic pieces next content patch and I'll probably stop bothering to sap/trap.

[Ironwood]

The real issue is that those people aren't recognizing that DPS now does have a responsibility just as high as tanks and healers.  CC and focus fire have everything to do with the success of instances in Cata where it was never even cared about in LK.  Tanking and healing would be no big deal if everyone plays their part correctly.  Topping the dps charts is no longer an excuse of "I'm doing my part."  None of that matters if you are causing wipes.

Yeah.  Me, Shaman Healer, Mage, Warlock, BearTank.  Heroic Votex.

It was utter bullshit, due to the tank charging in and trying to dps down all the groups.  Here was a group who (apart from me, Fury) had CC coming out of our arseholes.  Did we bother ?  Nope.  The double ramp with the 6 mobs didn't even get caster CC and we wiped 3 times by the time we got to Mr Dragon, despite me saying 'er, chaps, this would go easier with us CC a couple of these guys'.

Each player had around 10k dps and even Mr Bear Tank was well up at 9k.  But it was an exercise in utter fucking futility by the time these fucking retards got to the Faraday Cage mobs with the wondrous instant 200k healers.  I was the only fucking one pounding on the Adepts while they all focused on the other chaps.

Take Recount to FUCK and play the fucking game.  In a way, it was a learning curve for me at the start when I realised that my DPS didn't matter jack fuck if I didn't get away from Ozruks Shatter.  I got shit from that fight for having lower overall dps than the other two corpses.  I bet they didn't do that much on Ozruk himself.   


On an unrelated note, I agree that the JP rewards are kinda all over the place for Warrior tanks.  Spent a fair bit thus far and I really feel like it's not been entirely worth it.

[kildorn]

You had I think 3 usable CCs for VP (no sheeping elementals, I believe), and I'm iffy on Fear working there. I know there are a few pulls where you can't CC (the princes can't be banished, and there is at least a double pull of them)

But yeah, I had a group with my lock, an enhance shaman, and a hunter. And no CC marks in Grim Batol. Seriously? We have like, 6 concurrent crowd controls going on here. We can lock down the entire pull on the largest pulls in there, and our healer is OOMing every pull due to tank damage. Mark something!

Hell, I've taken to banishing without marks if nobody's marking CC. You know what? You can't break my CC, so you're just going to have to live with the idea that one of those mobs is controlled.

[ezrast]

If DPS queues were what they were in Wrath, I would seriously consider switching specs just so I could make sure CC and interrupts were done right. Hell, I'm seriously considering collecting hit gear as a healer for the same reason, though having to watch enemy cast bars on top of cooldowns, raid frames, ground effects, and mana usage is tough.

[Ironwood]

Watching the Wife Shackle is a thing of beauty.  She's a fantastic Healer but the minute there's a loose undead on the scene, BAM, it's not moving.

If only she was as good at shackling IRL.  Still, you can't have everything.

Vortex has two parts, bear in mind, the elementals, which are trickier to CC, and the Faraday Cage chaps who really, really, really need CC.

The idea of running the Heroic without even trying is so oldskool and stupid as to beggar belief.

[kildorn]

The humanoid section is getting nerfed pretty hard. The only reason you needed CC on it was that the healers would drop a minute long 200/300% haste buff on themselves and spam Flash Heal if you didn't murder them at low health/interrupt the initial heal. The only CC you really need is one of the healers in a two healer pack and someone interrupting/stunning the other.

The spam lightning on everyone constantly dudes are obnoxious, though.

[Khaldun]

Geez, I hope they don't nerf the humanoid section, actually. First, you can already cheat your way around two of the humanoid packs if you've got a rogue on board with a non-combat initiating sap (yay me) but also it's a reasonable case of using cc and interrupts in a way that most players ought to aspire to learn. As opposed to some of the boss interrupts which take place in the middle of all sorts of complicated emotes and spams and green shit on the floor and so on.

The instance that I think really needs a fix is Heroic Stonecore. Fuck but that gets boring and frustrating because of the trash. It would be one thing if the bosses were all ez-sauce and so the trash was the real challenge, but they're not.

[kildorn]

The nerf is severely reducing the duration of the buff the healers put on themselves (desperate prayer? something like that) as a penalty for missing an interrupt on them. They get a little absurd with that buff up, and it's not dispelable.

HStonecore bothers me because of the amount of "one fuckup and it's a wipe" mechanics on bosses. Be it any of the abilities that will oneshot the tank on Oz, or the falling rocks of lawl on lady whatshername.

HSFK needs a serious trash reduction as well. That is a sloggy freaking instance.

[Paelos]

I'm not sure the 2nd boss of heroic Grim Batol is a fair fight. I've had several instances where he draws a shield first and doesn't move out of the stonefall he laid out.

Also, the flaming arrows seem over the top. Has anybody else had issues there, or were my healers just completely unprepared?

[kildorn]

I'm not sure the 2nd boss of heroic Grim Batol is a fair fight. I've had several instances where he draws a shield first and doesn't move out of the stonefall he laid out.

Also, the flaming arrows seem over the top. Has anybody else had issues there, or were my healers just completely unprepared?

That fight flips from normal. Shield becomes by FAR the worst phase. The tank needs to be on the ball moving him out of cave ins due to shielding on a cave in, but you can deal with it if he's standing on one (his hitbox is large enough to dps from outside it, just don't run through him), and the arrows deal craploads more damage in heroic. Meanwhile dual blades is a joke that you just pop defensive cooldowns and wait out.

In general to avoid the "standing on a cave in" thing, your melee dps needs to be dpsing from farther away near the edge of his hitbox. The cave ins center on their random target, so worst case you wind up with one sitting next to one side during a shield phase, which is manageable.

Also, everyone should run to melee range during shield phase, and just circle strafe or run through (depending where the cave in is) to dodge the shield flame.

[Paelos]

The problem we had were that arrows were owning the group in the face, and the priest couldn't keep up. They were hitting for 9k a pop and were unavoidable. I think the damage is too high for a damage effect that we can't reduce through smart play.

[Ingmar]

I still care about threat stats. 

[kildorn]

The problem we had were that arrows were owning the group in the face, and the priest couldn't keep up. They were hitting for 9k a pop and were unavoidable. I think the damage is too high for a damage effect that we can't reduce through smart play.

I'm surprised a priest had issues with it. PoH is pretty much the be all end all raid damage spell. That and Mending work great for the arrows, to the point where my priest never actually noticed they hurt that much.

And ing: screw your threat stats! Seriously, threat is a joke right now :( I only use taunt if the mob that isn't on me is out of rune strike range.

[Ingmar]

I don't care about them because of threat. Tank DPS is always an incredibly underrated factor in group success.

[kildorn]

True, but I think I'm playing the lowest or second lowest DPS tank. On an awesome day I can rock 6k with silly vengeance numbers.

My damage output is getting a huge buff next patch though (heart strike's getting buffed to sin)

[Ironwood]

The problem we had were that arrows were owning the group in the face, and the priest couldn't keep up. They were hitting for 9k a pop and were unavoidable. I think the damage is too high for a damage effect that we can't reduce through smart play.

Nah, you're just a pussy.  Higher DPS will sort that out.  Just keep kicking the DPS until you get some who have a fucking clue.

[Paelos]

The problem we had were that arrows were owning the group in the face, and the priest couldn't keep up. They were hitting for 9k a pop and were unavoidable. I think the damage is too high for a damage effect that we can't reduce through smart play.

Nah, you're just a pussy.  Higher DPS will sort that out.  Just keep kicking the DPS until you get some who have a fucking clue.

Not a bad idea. I like your thought process here.

And I am a pussy about heroics. I'd nerf em all and fuck the hardcore bullshit haters. We're not using these as the pinnacle of content.

[Ironwood]

We kinda are.  These queues are fuck stupid and I currently (right NOW) have 20 people on in guild and I can't get a 5 man together.

Fucking Hell, I honestly think I'm done with it now.

New Year, New Hobby.

[Paelos]

We kinda are.  These queues are fuck stupid and I currently (right NOW) have 20 people on in guild and I can't get a 5 man together.

Fucking Hell, I honestly think I'm done with it now.

New Year, New Hobby.

Well, I'd ask if you can't get them together because of time problems, not caring, or in general people hate them?

Because if it's the last one, that speaks heavily to the design decisions Blizzard's made.

[kildorn]

I have timezone issues getting 5 mans going in guild, but that's because it's a heavily west coast guild and I roll east coast times.

That and one of our 85s absolutely refuses to admit how awesome flight form is and is camping a mount like it's jboots.

[Merusk]

He's camping the time-lost drake? Tell him to get a life.

[Ingmar]

The one in Deepholm actually, but yeah.

[Lantyssa]

He's been at it all week of my trial.  Dood's a bit crazy like that.  I'd do guild-only groups, but the trial doesn't let me get past 80 and is a few days from running out.

Shame, too, because I have my new DK rotation up and Kild saying Heartstrike is getting a buff makes me happy.

[Rendakor]

The drake in deepholme pisses me off because I swear I saw it up at least once during my initial push to 85, but I was so intent on grinding that I never bothered googling some friendly elite that wasn't even silver to see if it was useful/rare. I just assumed it was a guard or quest mob.

[kildorn]

He's been at it all week of my trial.  Dood's a bit crazy like that.  I'd do guild-only groups, but the trial doesn't let me get past 80 and is a few days from running out.

Shame, too, because I have my new DK rotation up and Kild saying Heartstrike is getting a buff makes me happy.

Heart Strike now deals 175% weapon damage plus 15% per disease, up from 120% plus 10% per disease.
Improved Death Strike now increases the damage of Death Strike by 30/60/90%, up from 15/30/45%.

In addition, they're making Blood Shield roll now, so you don't wind up in a position where your second deathstrike erases the shield you had on previously.

The Death Strike glyph for frost and unholy will probably get mauled/removed before 4.0.6 goes live, because no matter how much they massage it, it's broken as sin for Blood spec unless you make blood shield only work in Blood Presence.

[Rendakor]

I'm with you there kildorn; the only other way to make it work would be to have changing presences remove the shield.

[Selby]

Well, I'd ask if you can't get them together because of time problems, not caring, or in general people hate them?

In my guild there are 2 tanks (one tank "retired" because he would rather DPS) and 4 main healers.  All of them geared their heroics out the first week content was out, and now only log in to bitch that the remaining 8-9 DPS who log on regularly aren't geared for raids yet.  So basically they all ran together, got geared up, and then ditched the rest of the guild to gear up on our own.  Which based on the average success rate of heroics (1+hrs when you do manage to finish, worse when you fail) is pretty much frustrating the hell out of me to the point where I don't think I'm going to bother raiding or heroic'ing or even logging in anymore.

And when I complained, I was told "just level your tank\healer instead!"

[Rendakor]

Selby I think the problem lies more with the content than your guildies. For a lot of people (myself included), heroics are simply not fun. In some zones, every single trash pull is a hassle, and I've already started skipping certain optional bosses because they (Commander in SFK, Beauty depending on comp) or their trash (Mindbender and his goblin hordes) are just a huge headache. Some of the zones are pretty easy (Lost City is probably my favorite), while others aren't bad if you have the right comp. But I can't WAIT until I've gotten my last 3 pieces from the VP vendor and don't have to suffer through this bullshit anymore.

Besides me, we've got two other tanks in the guild. One of them (feral druid) can't be bothered to learn the heroic fights so he only comes to them as DPS but will tank raids. The other is a relatively new recruit, and hasn't really gathered up guildies for heroic runs yet. I'm hoping he does so, and gears up quickly so he can replace the feral druid as our dedicated OT.

[Merusk]

It's funny, Lost City is one of the easiest instances there is, but I've had the 2nd most failures there.  (Vortex Pinnacle being the most.)   People fail on the CC or the simplest of boss mechanics.  Or, like tonight, you get that one asshat dps who aggros everything then bitches when he dies 5 times before the 3rd boss.  Something about that instance just makes people stupid.