Simple questions. Simple answers. Complex questions. Flow charts.

[Ashamanchill]

"Be careful, lest in casting out your demon you exorcise the best thing in you."  I think the WoW devs should get this Nietzsche quote inscribed on their desks.

The shit you describe is why they should have thought twice about taking the wrench to heroics. They are a majority of the content in this game, and by making them borderline unplayable unless you roll a dedicated team, they have effectively deleted a large portion of their game. Yeah yeah, I know, 'but in a few months the next patch will come out and we'll all have purples and steamroll it.' Fuck that, 'our game will be fixed in a few months' is never an acceptable argument.

[Paelos]

We all knew it was coming. I'm just wondering how long the bad taste will linger with people.

We're also assuming they will leave heroics alone in the next iteration. Who's to say they won't buff some of the content when the VP epics roll down to JP prices?

[apocrypha]

We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.

[kildorn]

We all knew it was coming. I'm just wondering how long the bad taste will linger with people.

We're also assuming they will leave heroics alone in the next iteration. Who's to say they won't buff some of the content when the VP epics roll down to JP prices?

They'd need to buff the gear dropped in normals to do that, or it would become impossible to make the normal->heroic jump.

The only way they're getting "harder" is new heroics aimed at the higher tier, ala Trial of the Champ type things and the new heroics added later in wrath.

[Minvaren]

Anyone know of a mod that lets you display multiple reps in the XP bar area simultaneously?  I think Questhelper used to let you do that, but its functionality has been mostly assimilated by the stock UI.

[Xanthippe]

For a lot of people (myself included), heroics are simply not fun.

The way I read Ghostcrawler's post, this is by design.

I wonder if Blizzard can profit from the population of players they are accommodating?

[Ironwood]

Ghostcrawlers post was actually a good one, with a great many salient points.

Fundamentally, however, I don't think he's RIGHT about where it actually IS right now.  I think what he describes is a good goal, but it's not there yet.

He admits there are changes to be made, but doesn't admit how much.  I suspect this is merely him being good at communication.

[01101010]

Need some advice on wtf I am doing wrong in The Oculus. Yeah, I read all the shit on it and followed stuff pretty much to the letter but my group is still wiping on regular.  I am running a green dragon and thus attempting to heal. Basically the fight starts and the tank flies in an engages. I spit the green stuff but am finding I can get maybe two off before the tank is dropping into the 70% health range and thus screaming for a health funnel. So I funnel and watch his health and my health drop until the yellow dragons freeze the boss. I then put a third spit on the boss and hit nightmare, then start healing again. Usually around the second enrage, I die horribly, and repeatedly while the tank is screaming for heals (while I am healing him). So what's the trick I am missing with this?

[ezrast]

Don't bother with nightmare unless you're overgearing the fight. Just keep three stacks up on the boss (throw some on the adds too if you're feeling saucy, though it shouldn't be necessary) and heal whomever needs it. If people are dying too quickly for you to refresh your stacks and heal up as necessary, then either the adds aren't getting burned down or the tank is doing something wrong.

[Ingmar]

Yellow drakes aren't keeping him locked down enough is my guess.

[Kail]

Need some advice on wtf I am doing wrong in The Oculus. Yeah, I read all the shit on it and followed stuff pretty much to the letter but my group is still wiping on regular.

It's been a while since I ran Oculus, so if it's changed recently this is probably wrong.

Is this a regular group, or a random run?  If it's a regular group, I'd talk to the tank.  There really isn't much to that dragon in normal, healing is pretty straightforward.  I might not cast nightmare if I'm low on health (I was always with groups that were well enough geared to blow through it), but otherwise it sounds like what I did when I ran it.  If I recall right, there's not much you can do besides health funnel, refresh dot, repeat.  When you say "I'm dying," what do you mean?  If mobs are hitting you, that's on the tank.  If you're blowing too much health on health funnel, I'd make sure that your dots are always up (you can cancel out of health funnel to refresh the dot and then re-funnel right away, faster than re-applying the three dots if they wear off) but otherwise, that's also on the tank (either he's not evading or not martyring, there's nothing you can do to heal better or faster in that fight if funnel is always up) or maybe the DPS if they're sitting on their ass while you're burning hp.  Might also be your gear level, if you're running through it to level (as opposed to running it with a half set of purples).  Vehicles scale with gear level, so that mucks up the balance in that fight a bit.  If I recall correctly, you can just set the best geared member of your party on the tanking dragon if you want, and he'll do just as well if he's a priest as he would if he was a warrior.

[01101010]

Need some advice on wtf I am doing wrong in The Oculus. Yeah, I read all the shit on it and followed stuff pretty much to the letter but my group is still wiping on regular.

It's been a while since I ran Oculus, so if it's changed recently this is probably wrong.

Is this a regular group, or a random run?  If it's a regular group, I'd talk to the tank.  There really isn't much to that dragon in normal, healing is pretty straightforward.  I might not cast nightmare if I'm low on health (I was always with groups that were well enough geared to blow through it), but otherwise it sounds like what I did when I ran it.  If I recall right, there's not much you can do besides health funnel, refresh dot, repeat.  When you say "I'm dying," what do you mean?  If mobs are hitting you, that's on the tank.  If you're blowing too much health on health funnel, I'd make sure that your dots are always up (you can cancel out of health funnel to refresh the dot and then re-funnel right away, faster than re-applying the three dots if they wear off) but otherwise, that's also on the tank (either he's not evading or not martyring, there's nothing you can do to heal better or faster in that fight if funnel is always up) or maybe the DPS if they're sitting on their ass while you're burning hp.  Might also be your gear level, if you're running through it to level (as opposed to running it with a half set of purples).  Vehicles scale with gear level, so that mucks up the balance in that fight a bit.  If I recall correctly, you can just set the best geared member of your party on the tanking dragon if you want, and he'll do just as well if he's a priest as he would if he was a warrior.

These are pugs and I am questing thru that dungeon atm. Basically I have the DoTs up and break funnel when I see them dropping, but I am hanging around 50-60% health the whole fight while the tank health is dropping like a brick. Being the healer, I am the victim of the bitching that I am not doing a good enough job. I have thick skin so I don't take it all that seriously, but when it happens several times, might as well be sure I am not actually doing it wrong. I can say that I am the first to die every time and my health never seems to regen faster than it drains even with a 3 stack. Last two pugs I was in, the tank was bitching how I was grabbing aggro and not healing so I was really not sure how or why. Figure I'd check in here to find out. The last time, the whelps seem to key right in on me and I could not break funnel to throw dots on any of them since the tank was sitting at 40%.

[Ingmar]

If adds are beelining you, fly closer to the tank, the red drake's breath is a 'cleave' that hops from dragon to dragon so if you're in close he'll have a better chance of hitting the ones that are coming after you. I still think the amber drakes are probably screwing this up, you shouldn't actually spend that much time getting beat on by the big dragon if the 3 of them are staggering their freezes and doing damage properly, since he'll go into the flyaround/orb chase phase at certain health % spots.

Oculus should proooobably not be in the random leveling rotation, frankly, the mechanics take a little getting used to.

[SurfD]

Sounds to me like the tank is terrible.  His breath is not only a cleave, it is one of those "chain ligning" type things that gains in damage each time it jumps, and the whelps should spawn close enough to the boss that it should hit all of them nearly as soon as they spawn.  The tank may occasionally take "spike damage" when he needs to build dodge charges, but most of the time, the tank should not actually be takeing much damage at all.  If his hp is dropping like a rock, he is not managing his dodge stacks correctly, or is popping his "redirect ALL damage to me" special when he has very low dodge stacks.

Also, make sure your bronze drakes are co-ordinating their time stops durring enrages.  It also helps if the Bronze drakes actually know what the hell they are doing.  Half the time I did occulus, the people on bronze drakes did not understand that the channeled attack they have actually DOES NO DAMAGE on its own.  So they would sit there, and both channel away mindlessly untill they each reached 10 stacks, then attack and repeat.  You get a LOT more damage out of bronze drakes if they alternate one channeling and one nukeing untill the channeling one gets 10 stacks, then the nuker starts channeling, and when the guy with 10 stacks hits his nuke, the guy now channeling will almost instantly get 10 stacks.  After that, they can alternate channel / nuke on like a 2 second rotation and just obliterate the boss.

If you have enough health, casting your healer nuke is actually a good idea.  If i remember correctly, it leaves a debuff on the boss that reduces his Damage done by like 40% or something like that.

Honestly though, the biggest suggestion i would have if you are having problems in Occulus is: add another green drake.  1 Red, 2 bronze, 2 green should have no problem dealing with anything normal can do.

[01101010]

Will take all this into the next round. If we wipe and I am the only green, I'll suggest another green. Otherwise I'll keep doing what I do since that seems to be the way. Thanks for putting an old man's head at ease.

[Selby]

If his hp is dropping like a rock, he is not managing his dodge stacks correctly, or is popping his "redirect ALL damage to me" special when he has very low dodge stacks.

This.  The only time I ever had issues with health was when the healer was flat out not health funneling at all to me.  And if the little whelps are attacking everyone else the tank is not doing his job either.

[Merusk]

If adds are beelining you, fly closer to the tank, the red drake's breath is a 'cleave' that hops from dragon to dragon so if you're in close he'll have a better chance of hitting the ones that are coming after you. I still think the amber drakes are probably screwing this up, you shouldn't actually spend that much time getting beat on by the big dragon if the 3 of them are staggering their freezes and doing damage properly, since he'll go into the flyaround/orb chase phase at certain health % spots.

Oculus should proooobably not be in the random leveling rotation, frankly, the mechanics take a little getting used to.

I agree, Oculus is one that shouldn't be in there at all.  Based on my experiences with it a few weeks ago on an alt it's a combination of all the of the problems you're listing.  The tank doesn't know how to use the abilities given, the DPS blows Stop Time in rapid succession and the players are clueless of the mechanics of the fight.

In my fight the other two dps blew ST right at the beginning of the fight, on top of each other.. then the drakes kept aggroing the healer as the tank was doing the same screaming  01 is talking about.   I managed to pull aggro on the boss since I knew how to stack the DPS funnel and blow it, instead of just spamming the 1 key.  The only reason we lived was when my drake died, I knew that if I was over an Island I wouldn't fall to my death and would be able to DPS.  3 other dragons died after mine and I'd blown all my mage CDs before he died.   It's a lousy instance and nobody asks questions.. I should have known to just explain the fight as we were going to it.

[01101010]

Happy to report I finally got thru it, but had one amber dragon die and the others were a bit battered - tank was 50% as was I since i got to get off a stack of leech and drop nightmare twice. Now that that one is done I pray it doesn't queue up in random again... for a very long time.

[Sheepherder]

The tank has no chance in hell of keeping aggro on that fight.  He's there to hit his "I am a grounding totem" type special while keeping evasion up, and to nuke whelps by shooting big dragon with his cleaving attack.

[SurfD]

well, the tank isnt really a "tank" in the traditional sense, since yes, any good bronze should be able to rip aggro off him in short order.  The trick with the red is that he can redirect all damage to himself at key points, and combined with proper dodge stacks, completely nulllify all damage that is occuring for a good chunk of time.

[Furiously]

I just made a flow chart...

Having fun  ----> Yes ----> keep playing
    !
    !
  No
    !
    !
Stop playing

I went with no.

[Rasix]

Ok. Thanks for sharing.

[Kail]

Stupid question:

My paladin just dinged 84, and I'm looking at the endgame fairly soon.  Naturally, I'm kind of anxious about all the bitching over heroics.  So my question: is there any reason to run normal dungeons instead of heroics?  Can I get decent gear (some kind of set pieces) from that?  Also, what are the normal dungeons like in terms of difficulty?  Will I be OK waltzing into them with greens (haven't touched any of this expansions's dungeons yet so all my gear is quest greens).

[Ingmar]

Stupid question:

My paladin just dinged 84, and I'm looking at the endgame fairly soon.  Naturally, I'm kind of anxious about all the bitching over heroics.  So my question: is there any reason to run normal dungeons instead of heroics?  Can I get decent gear (some kind of set pieces) from that?  Also, what are the normal dungeons like in terms of difficulty?  Will I be OK waltzing into them with greens (haven't touched any of this expansions's dungeons yet so all my gear is quest greens).

Between Twilight Highlands quest rewards, faction stuff, and some runs of the 85 normals you can get into a full suit of ilvl 333 stuff, which will make a big difference in your ability to succeed in heroics. Greens into heroics is rough.

[Merusk]

Yeah don't forget the faction stuff.  So many people I've talked to have forgotten they got to honored or revered while questing and don't go back to visit the vendors.

[Rendakor]

I'd say do /lfd for normal dungeons for a day or so; you'll get some rep, maybe an upgrade or two, and a feel for how dungeons work in Cata. Most of the boss fights are radically different on heroic, but you'll at least get used to ccing, avoiding fire, etc. and unlearning any bad habits from WotLK.

[Xanthippe]

Either you people are insane or you are not talking about pugging heroics in Cataclysm.  Not enough tanks/healers are overgeared and still pugging heroics to be able to successfully finish them in pugs yet.

There is _no_ way that anyone can go into heroics without doing regulars first (more than a day or two, unless you're in dungeons for 24 hours straight).

You won't have the ilvl necessary to pug a heroic, for one thing, and if you're a dps trying to pug a heroic, you won't be putting out nearly enough damage to help your group.  If you're tanking or healing, don't even think about it .

Even the easy heroics are hard in a pug still.

[K9]

I suspect that making the entry level for heroics ilvl 333 equipped would have made things a bit better, but it would have slowed the grind down a whole lot more.

[Shrike]

Yeah, you have to do the normals to really prepare for the heroics...though, there are a few shortcuts. I was in heroics literally hours after hitting 85--but I had planned ahead some and had some luck.

Firstly, faction. Get it. Do the dailys where applicable and hit the 85 normals with the tabard as soon as you hit 84. Your group isn't going to love you, but it'll work. Guild groups are ideal. Quartermasters are your friend. Get friendly.

Secondly, and this only applies to those who thought ahead in LK: spend your JP at 85 on 346 gear. You did max that out, yes? Two items right there.

I am a JC and a shaman; I had 333 weapons from 83 on. Huge help. So did every other JC. For classes that can use claws, buy those puppies on the AH. Every JC can make them and they're cheap. Sadly, the JC rings and ammys are clownshoes on mats, so you'll never see them. What Bliz was thinking here I have no clue, but it was fucking stupid. My guess was it was to rely on alchemy to give them something to make money on, but it was still fucking stupid. The mats should have been a third of what they are on live. But I digress...

The AH. There are a lot of 333 tradeskill items and most aren't too expensive. There are a few 346 items and they are expensive. There will be occasional 359 world drop BoE epics, and they're bloody outrageous, but if you have the means they will cure what ails you. Money is for spending; that's why you have it. You'll make more.

Follow that advice and you won't spend quite so much time in normals. I still did quite a few for the experience of the fights and guaranteed JP. Heroics were a charlie-foxtrot (still are, really), but completion of normals was a given. Well, almost always.

[K9]

. Sadly, the JC rings and ammys are clownshoes on mats, so you'll never see them. What Bliz was thinking here I have no clue, but it was fucking stupid. My guess was it was to rely on alchemy to give them something to make money on, but it was still fucking stupid. The mats should have been a third of what they are on live. But I digress...

There's also two functionally identical agility necks and rings and no craftable healer neck or ring. Even if the requirement of four Chimaera's eyes wasn't sufficiently retarded, how stuff like that made it through QA without anyone raising a flag baffles me.

[Rendakor]

Good advise there Shrike; that's about what I did on my Enh shaman: had a few Honored rep items available already and blew ~10k on the AH. After that it only took a few upgrades out of regulars and I was in heroics.

[Xanthippe]

Running heroics in a guild group is a major advantage over running them in pugs.  I've been heroic-rated since shortly after hitting 85.  I've successfully finished 3 heroic pugs (out of 2x that many attempts).  I think my ilvl is now 339. 

I've just about given up on pug heroics, which means, I've about given up on my main.  For me, end game is bgs and heroic pugs.  I haven't enjoyed my hunter in bgs in this iteration at all.

Now I'm trying to find a fun alt to play in bgs.  Fooling around between boomkin/resto, shadowpriest, warlock, and nothing is grabbing me so far.  I don't understand mindspike well enough, and soulswap baffles me in pvp.  Boomkin feels weak, resto is more satisfying but I really need to learn it better.  My little worgen rogue (22 now) is fun in the bgs but completely op due to heirloom gear so I feel like I'm cheating (but my reflexes are way worse than my opponents so I consider it to be more of a handicap).

So, mindspike.  How do I work that into my rotation?  I'm so confused.

Soulswap.  Ditto.

Tyvm!

[Merusk]

You don't work it into your normal SP rotation. So far as I can tell it follows the new paradigm of "lots of abilities, not all used at the same time."  Since it wipes dots I've found its best used just spamming 3 then a mind blast when clearing trash or soloing things way below your level. Those are most often dying before your dots fully tick off, so it seems to get its best leverage there.

[Arrrgh]

Running heroics in a guild group is a major advantage over running them in pugs.  I've been heroic-rated since shortly after hitting 85.  I've successfully finished 3 heroic pugs (out of 2x that many attempts).  I think my ilvl is now 339. 

I've just about given up on pug heroics, which means, I've about given up on my main.  For me, end game is bgs and heroic pugs.  I haven't enjoyed my hunter in bgs in this iteration at all.

Now I'm trying to find a fun alt to play in bgs.  Fooling around between boomkin/resto, shadowpriest, warlock, and nothing is grabbing me so far.  I don't understand mindspike well enough, and soulswap baffles me in pvp.  Boomkin feels weak, resto is more satisfying but I really need to learn it better.  My little worgen rogue (22 now) is fun in the bgs but completely op due to heirloom gear so I feel like I'm cheating (but my reflexes are way worse than my opponents so I consider it to be more of a handicap).

So, mindspike.  How do I work that into my rotation?  I'm so confused.

Soulswap.  Ditto.

Tyvm!

Soul Swap has to be glyphed, then it's quite handy. Cast UA, Corruption, Agony on someone, soul swap, target someone else, soul swap again and it puts all three DOTs on the new person too. It doesn't swap Haunt. Use that insta cast tiny nuke to refresh UA.

[K9]

I use mind spike mainly for stuff like dailies where the mobs have too little HP for DoTs to run full effect. Otherwise I only use it when Archangel is up, for 15 seconds when you get the big ++% dmg, otherwise I just stick to DoTs; even doing this may be a DPS loss I suspect.

It's also decent in PvP.