Simple questions. Simple answers. Complex questions. Flow charts.

[caladein]

I simply find it too hard to play with the default positioning of the unit frames.

That's the main thing for me (and the ugliness).  The default UI has gotten a lot of useful features, but the placement of things like vitals off in the corner is still dumb.  Oddly enough, the vehicle UI is pretty good about that.

I've always been the type that runs a lot of mods, but now they're mostly small, or for personal data mining, or just provide a display I like better.  I didn't even have Omen installed until I started tanking, and that would have been verboten back in the day.

[kildorn]

Default UI users representin'!

Crazy people who actually raid heal with the default UI represent?

Seriously, what's wrong with you people! I went from screen dominating green bar hell to mouseover casting and tiny window of who is in or out of range love.

Seconded!  If you think you are healing at your best without something like Healbot, you are just wrong.  I can see who is in range, hurt, or just plain has agro and shouldn't.  I have heals coming on people that are about to get whacked more times than not.  I do that all WHILE tank healing too.  This allows me to not overheal spam and go OOM constantly while keeping our activities successful.

If you still insist default UI is ok for raid healing, at least get an add-on for pvp healing.  There just is no other way to do it.

You CAN heal 10 mans with the default UI.

It will simply drive you to the brink of insanity compared to healbot/vuhdo/grid+clique.

The difference is really in how much information you can have (knowing a target has weakened soul with two priests, etc), and how many people you can pay attention to at once. Vudho will happily heal a WG raid. The default UI would probably make you walk into a tree.

[caladein]

Click-casting as a healer is the way to go.

That really doesn't have anything to do with using the default frames versus *favorite raid frames*+Clique/@mouseover macros or an all-in-one like Healbot/Vuhdo though.

[WindupAtheist]

Unless someone is tanking or healing a raid, frankly a lot of this just looks like UI masturbation for its own sake. Yeah I can't glance up between pulls and see that my Blessing of Might has 12 minutes left, I need that shit on an animated bar chart in the middle of my screen.

[Selby]

You CAN heal 10 mans with the default UI.

I've healed through Rotface on 10-m content and up to Saurfang for 25-m content (most of the WotLK content really).  With the default UI.  And no, no one complained about anything.

[Paelos]

I tank with omen up and DBM. But I don't mess around with all the UI stuff.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, I've been healing 10 mans just fine since TBC. If I may toot my own horn (toot toot) I am still better at healing than some of the healers in my guild who do use all that add on bullshit. I would definitely get something for 25s though, I think that would make my head explode otherwise. But since I would rather shoot myself than do 25s as a healer, it's a moot point. 

I remembered another addon I use! Quartz.

[caladein]

Unless someone is tanking or healing a raid, frankly a lot of this just looks like UI masturbation for its own sake. Yeah I can't glance up between pulls and see that my Blessing of Might has 12 minutes left, I need that shit on an animated bar chart in the middle of my screen.

I'd argue on middle-of-the-screen, but I understand what you're saying.

The reason I use a bar display (SimpleBuffBars in this case) is that while a few buffs use the same or similar icons a lot of debuffs do so I find the text list more useful then a grid of icons.  Also, before this patch I could filter out buffs that I didn't care about (but you can do that now with the Condensed thing).

Honestly, all of this stuff comes down to what works for you.  For example, the health bars being around the middle of my screen stemmed from picking up Guild Wars and seeing how much more sense it made to have my vitals near where my eyes already were.

With Sjofn bringing up Quartz, having your latency in your cast bar or a GCD timer or a swing timer are all damn useful for most classes.

[Jayce]

DBM is pretty cool for the abilities I can't remember in 5-mans, and also I appreciate someone saying "ABILITY X.. RUN AWAY". It doesn't get any nicer than that.  The way the bars animate across the screen to get your attention when something's about to happen is nice too.

Otherwise I use Mik Scrolling combat text, a recent addition, because I wanted to try a new one. I tank with Omen up. Titanbar is the only other one I use. Maybe healing is different but I never had a problem hitting a key to heal, especially since I use Q E R G and F, and there are usually no more than 5 abilities I absolutely have to have in twitch range for any given class.  Keeping track of 5 people is infinitely easier than 10 or 25 I'd guess though.

[K9]

You CAN drive a car with your teeth, that doesn't mean it's the easiest way to do things.

UI addons allow me to free up a ton of screen real-estate. Eliminating redundancy is also another nice thing; I run Grid which eliminates the need for party unit frames for example. Other addons like recount are incredibly useful for assessing both my own performance and the performance of others.

[Gobbeldygook]

I have no idea how anyone heals raids without Clique+grid.  It's massively faster than clicking on unit frames and pressing my heal button.  It also frees up a bunch of keybinds, which for a shaman are more precious than life itself.

[Jayce]

You CAN drive a car with your teeth, that doesn't mean it's the easiest way to do things.

They don't frequently release upgrades for my car that necessitate me having to wait until the steering wheel is upgraded to be able to drive again.

That said, I also use recount too (you reminded me), so maybe I'm more of a addon junkie than I thought I was.  Gearscore and Rankwatch too. Those things are insidious!

[Rendakor]

Is there a way to make a macro use an ability on your focus, if you have one, and if not, on your target?

[Rasix]

Addons really don't break much anymore.  I'm sure they'll shatter with Cat, but then you'll be leveling, so who cares.

Last addon problem I had was when a  build of Dominos uploaded to Curse was packaged wrong or some shit.  Took all of a minute to fix after following a link on the addon page.

[Sjofn]

They don't frequently release upgrades for my car that necessitate me having to wait until the steering wheel is upgraded to be able to drive again.

ding ding ding ding ding

I fucking hate the "whelp, let's see which addons broke THIS patch" game, and I don't want to be one of those people who are completely helpless without their 368925384562345 addons. The UI isn't nearly as bad as people claim it is. It really isn't.

[caladein]

Is there a way to make a macro use an ability on your focus, if you have one, and if not, on your target?

/cast [@focus,exists] [] Ability;

That's the generic form of it, but it will break (i.e. not try and cast on your target) if you have an illegible focus.  Assuming this isn't a resurrection spell (or other spell you can cast on dead targets) you'll want to use one of these three forms:

/cast [@focus,nodead,help] [] Ability; For helpful spells
/cast [@focus,nodead,harm] [] Ability; For harmful spells.
/cast [@focus,nodead] [] Ability; For spells that work on both friendly and enemy targets like Dispel Magic.

With these, if the spell can't be cast on your focus because you don't have one (nodead, help, and harm all imply exists), it's dead, or of the wrong type; it'll cast on your target... or you if you don't have a target, have auto self-cast on, and it's a friendly spell .

Edit: Clarified why exists disappears in the other macros.

[Rendakor]

So for Spellsteal, I would use the following:

/cast [@focus,nodead,harm] [] Spellsteal;

Is that correct? Particularly I'm trying to use this for Jaraxxus, so I can still get the buff while dpsing the adds; my mage only recently hit 80 and I never needed something like this before.

[caladein]

Yup.

If you have a focus, it's not dead, and it's an enemy the macro will try to cast Spellsteal on your focus.  If one of those three things isn't true, the macro will work like a normal Spellsteal button.

Edit: Way too many "it"s.

[Malakili]

Unless someone is tanking or healing a raid, frankly a lot of this just looks like UI masturbation for its own sake. Yeah I can't glance up between pulls and see that my Blessing of Might has 12 minutes left, I need that shit on an animated bar chart in the middle of my screen.

Its about minimizing the chance of error.  It isn't that it matters 99% of the time, but if it saves you one wipe because you realize something isn't quite right before the pull, then the UI mods are worth it.  

The same principle applies to tons of UI mods, its not that they are all needed all the time, but when they save you that wipe, or that mistake, it helps.
Furthermore, post Blackwing Lair, pretty much every raid instance Blizzard has made in WoW has fights in which situational awareness is very important.  So, the more information you have easily accessible on your screen, the less you need to devote to memorizing, keeping track of things, etc, and the more you can focus on things like not standing in the fire (which any raider can attest to, is a major problem in every raid group it seems).

That assumes you are raiding at a high enough level to care about such a thing.  But, personally, I'd say its probably worth it, as it reduces instances of error that leads to wipes.

If you don't care about that little bit of extra efficiency, then you don't, but that was always the reasoning behind required mods when I was in a raiding guild.  I tend to agree.

[Paelos]

There's a certain level of addons where I just start to wonder why you bother playing the actual game. It was very very uncomplicated to begin with. As I've said before, if you are a healer, I totally get the use of anything and everything to make your life a better place. If you are a dps with 20 addons, you're a fucking scrub.

[Rasix]

Yah, that map mod is totally skirting the line between playing and having the game play for you.

 

Can all of the mod-a-phobics quit being gigantic retards for just a moment? It's a BAD UI.  And trust me, I've seen bad UIs.  I work for IBM.  

Legal disclaimer here: my thoughts, view, pant size do not reflect the opinions of IBM.  DON'T HURT ME.

[Paelos]

Yah, that map mod is totally skirting the line between playing and having the game play for you.

 

Can all of the mod-a-phobics quit being gigantic retards for just a moment? It's a BAD UI.  And trust me, I've seen bad UIs.  I work for IBM.  

Legal disclaimer here: my thoughts, view, pant size do not reflect the opinions of IBM.  DON'T HURT ME.

No one's debating a bad UI. I just wonder about the people that need a mod to scratch your ass for you. I use about 8 myself. I can still realize WHEN I'M STANDING IN SHIT.

[Rasix]

The one you can argue for that largely everyone uses: DBM.   I'd argue that it's needed somewhat as it's kind of dumb to expect people to stare their chat screen looking for a boss emote to determine an ability and not everything has an animation/cast time/easily spotted visual cue.  It makes up for the limitations of their game engine encounter design.  Still, yes, people that can't be bothered to move out the poison or get out the way of the giant laser get their hand held a bit.  Yet, they still die.

The rest is mostly all aesthetics and data parsing/presentation.  OHH NOES.

edit: To expand.

[Paelos]

The one you can argue for that largely everyone uses: DBM.  

The rest is mostly all aesthetics and data parsing/presentation.  OHH NOES.

And Blizzard now designs fights based around the fact they know everyone has DBM. They say they don't, but let's get real. I'm not a mod-a-phobe, but I also understand the effect of a mod making developers feel de-pantsed by better programming. We learned that lesson way back with decursive and BWL, and I don't like it when the boss fights happen off the field, so to speak.

In ridiculous terms, they know that we know that they know about our knowing that they know.

[WindupAtheist]

There's a certain level of addons where I just start to wonder why you bother playing the actual game. It was very very uncomplicated to begin with. As I've said before, if you are a healer, I totally get the use of anything and everything to make your life a better place. If you are a dps with 20 addons, you're a fucking scrub.

Good luck having to look three inches higher to see that you have 47 minutes of Well Fed left, noob. And let me tell you, everyone appreciates the three different mods I run to analyze the performance of others. Why just the other day this pug rogue in spell leather told me "stfu fagort" in response to some helpful tips. I think it stands for So Thankful For... something.

[Paelos]

There's a certain level of addons where I just start to wonder why you bother playing the actual game. It was very very uncomplicated to begin with. As I've said before, if you are a healer, I totally get the use of anything and everything to make your life a better place. If you are a dps with 20 addons, you're a fucking scrub.

Good luck having to look three inches higher to see that you have 47 minutes of Well Fed left, noob. And let me tell you, everyone appreciates the three different mods I run to analyze the performance of others. Why just the other day this pug rogue in spell leather told me "stfu fagort" in response to some helpful tips. I think it stands for So Thankful For... something.

It's always fun when I can't tell that you agree or disagree with anything, and just ramble on like Dennis Miller. You should do Monday Night Football.

[Rasix]

We learned that lesson way back with decursive and BWL, and I don't like it when the boss fights happen off the field, so to speak.

Decursive was more of a response to fuck-stupid boss encounter design.  It was good they nerfed the shit out it and then rightfully tossed "curse the entire party for ultimate wipeage" in the trash.

Good luck having to look three inches higher to see that you have 47 minutes of Well Fed left, noob. And let me tell you, everyone appreciates the three different mods I run to analyze the performance of others. Why just the other day this pug rogue in spell leather told me "stfu fagort" in response to some helpful tips. I think it stands for So Thankful For... something.

Option A: I look in the upper left hand corner of my screen to check my health. 
Option B: I look where I was already looking and check my health.

Which one should I pick?

Reverting to WindupNutsack form in this thread isn't doing you any favors.  You're just looking like a moron.

[Sjofn]

So Thankful for Urhelp. Duh.

Also, the people in my guild who are stupidest about standing in stupid shit they shouldn't stand in and all that other bullshit are the ones with a billion add ons. When you have enough add ons basically thinking for you, it ... makes you think a lot less in my experience. We have people who have REPAIR add ons, because clicking the repair icon is apparently such a hardship. They're usually the geniuses who magically have shit break in the middle of dungeons. And so on.

They're also the ones you don't see for a week after a patch. Which is a mixed blessing. :P



PS: I don't actually give a fuck about who uses what addons, I just get tired of the retarded MY GOD HOW CAN YOU PLAY LIKE THAT. It isn't anywhere NEAR as horrible as the add on humpers claim. (Love, a gigantic retard mod-a-phobic, apparently.)

[Paelos]

We learned that lesson way back with decursive and BWL, and I don't like it when the boss fights happen off the field, so to speak.

Decursive was more of a response to fuck-stupid boss encounter design.  It was good they nerfed the shit out it and then rightfully tossed "curse the entire party for ultimate wipeage" in the trash.

I don't disagree at all. It was absolutely ridiculous. It was the biggest case of the playerbase hitting the developers in the face with their own stupidity. It was a total, We Win, You Lose, button.

They didn't like it then, and they don't like it now. They will design things knowing you are using every advantage you have, and then lying to your face about it.

[Sjofn]

At least they seem better at warning you that shit is about to get real on boss fights! Many fine raid warnings happen without any mod help these days, not that I think many people would notice this, as pretty much everyone has DBM or Bigwigs. But still!

[Paelos]

At least they seem better at warning you that shit is about to get real on boss fights! Many fine raid warnings happen without any mod help these days, not that I think many people would notice this, as pretty much everyone has DBM or Bigwigs. But still!

You're right, and Blizzard is like the Borg in that regard. They will assimilate anything that remotely seems interesting into their own system. They will do it poorly, but just enough to make you question whether it's worth the effort to keep updating external mods.

Think about it this way with the mod battle: Let's suppose I'm a programmer with nothing better to do, and I create a "GTFO MOD". This mod will automatically move your toon for you while you hit your dps rotations when you get hit by any ground effects. I just cut Blizzard's boss design in half.

[Sjofn]

What's awesome is even if that mod existed, I know some people in my guild would use it, but still die to fire, because they'll get confused why they moved and run into something else to kill them.

I love my guild, I really do. 

[Paelos]

What's awesome is even if that mod existed, I know some people in my guild would use it, but still die to fire, because they'll get confused why they moved and run into something else to kill them.

I love my guild, I really do.  

Ok that made me chuckle.  

If only because I raid lead 24 other people like that.

[Rasix]

At least they seem better at warning you that shit is about to get real on boss fights! Many fine raid warnings happen without any mod help these days, not that I think many people would notice this, as pretty much everyone has DBM or Bigwigs. But still!

You're right, and Blizzard is like the Borg in that regard. They will assimilate anything that remotely seems interesting into their own system. They will do it poorly, but just enough to make you question whether it's worth the effort to keep updating external mods.

And yet their base UI still doesn't have moveable unit frames or customizable button bars.  Is it too hard to give Tuller a call and see if he'd like a job at Blizzard?

I'm pretty sure their attitude at this point for that type of thing is "community does it better, why bother?". Otherwise it probably could have been done in 5 years. 

Think about it this way with the mod battle: Let's suppose I'm a programmer with nothing better to do, and I create a "GTFO MOD". This mod will automatically move your toon for you while you hit your dps rotations when you get hit by any ground effects. I just cut Blizzard's boss design in half.

Got an example that isn't against the TOS? 

If you want a mod that really, really goes beyond the pale: ShockAndAwe.

[Paelos]

I'm pretty sure their attitude at this point for that type of thing is "community does it better, why bother?". Otherwise it probably could have been done in 5 years. 

The accountant side of me says, "And it's also free."

The nerdrage gamer side of me gets pissy.