Blizzard's VP of Game Design admits Arenas the biggest mistake.

[tazelbain]

I read it the same as sinji and don't play WoW (I don't eat at McDonald's).  I enjoy listening to you guys try to spin this.  It's like telling your spouse that you wish you never got married but you still love them anyway.

[Merusk]

I can understand people not enjoying Arenas when ladder shows beyond any shadow of the doubt that you belong in the bottom 10% of WoW skill and you can't hide your personal failures by rolling in a zergball. Rest are justifications.

Wow arena is not about 'skill' it's about having the right class/spec comp for your group and that is it. Oh sure there's basic stuff you need to know but if you aren't X specced Y class, you aren't anything but cannon fodder.  Anyone who says differently is one of those specs and classes who can't understand why all the noobs whine See:Ret paladin at wotlk start.

Hush you. You just lack Sinij's leet PVP skillz.  Don't make him kill you with a holy priest just to prove a point.

[Sheepherder]

I read it the same as sinji and don't play WoW (I don't eat at McDonald's).  I enjoy listening to you guys try to spin this.  It's like telling your spouse that you wish you never got married but you still love them anyway.

No, it isn't.  Nobody here has said they like arenas.  Stop being retarded.

Likewise for sinij.

[sinij]

Hey look, a bullshit failure of a PVP system that only a handful of vocal douchebags enjoy and which even the developer admits was a flawed idea from the beginning. Who could have imagined that we'd find Sinij trying to champion it in his uniquely retarded fashion, making vague allusions that the company will someday regret "alienating" his dipshit demographic and whining like an infant that anyone who doesn't enjoy it must suck?

Nice to see that your zelous douchebaggery only rivaled by your total inability of play computer games well. You would think that after decades of voluntarily getting your shit pushed in various games you'd pick a pointer or two and graduate out of eternal noobdom.

Please, do tell me what helpless victims get hurt by "dipshit demographic" Gladiators on the way to the top in WoW's arena ladder?

[tazelbain]

No one here is a lot different that no one anywhere.  This "The arena player's aren't being scapegoated.  But fuck those guys, I hate them." message is funny.

[Nightblade]

Nice to see that your zelous douchebaggery only rivaled by your total inability of play computer games well. You would think that after decades of voluntarily getting your shit pushed in various games you'd pick a pointer or two and graduate out of
Please, do tell me what helpless victims get hurt by "dipshit demographic" Gladiators on the way to the top in WoW's arena ladder?

www.Arenajunkies.com

The only thing worse than Arena itself would be the giant ball sacks that the high end Arena community is comprised of.

[WindupAtheist]

Wow arena is not about 'skill' it's about having the right class/spec comp for your group and that is it. Oh sure there's basic stuff you need to know but if you aren't X specced Y class, you aren't anything but cannon fodder.  Anyone who says differently is one of those specs and classes who can't understand why all the noobs whine See:Ret paladin at wotlk start.

Hush you. You just lack Sinij's leet PVP skillz.  Don't make him kill you with a holy priest just to prove a point.

I know, right? I love the way players of certain classes suddenly go from being really bad to being highly skilled (or vice versa) all at once. Coincidentally this seems to happen right after every balance patch.

i liek feces

So wait. I thought never quite knowing whether or not three guys were about to ride up and gank you into oblivion made you hardcore, while ritualized and tightly-controlled PVP was for pussies who couldn't handle the unexpected. Now suddenly organized teams fighting in an enclosed environment is the pinnacle of skill, while everyone else is a bunch of wimps running around in a giant zerg. What an amusing reversal.

You heard it here, folks. Everyone running around in old-school UO was a big zerging pussy. The real skill was in the weekend duelling leagues and guild wars that every shard's Trammel had. Either that or Sinij just naturally gravitates toward whatever the biggest nexus of dipshittery is in any given game and then adopts it as his own.

[Gobbeldygook]

Wow arena is not about 'skill' it's about having the right class/spec comp for your group and that is it. Oh sure there's basic stuff you need to know but if you aren't X specced Y class, you aren't anything but cannon fodder.  Anyone who says differently is one of those specs and classes who can't understand why all the noobs whine See:Ret paladin at wotlk start.

This is amazingly wrong.  There's a massive difference between an RMP at 1500 and an RMP at 2500.  They could have the exact same gear and the 2500 team would still completely wipe the floor with the 1500 team every single time because the 2500 team is composed of better players than the 1500 one.  If you still play, just go find a Gladiator on the server to queue up some skirmishes with you and watch how they play.

There's a strong 3's comp for almost every single class/spec in the game.  The only specs that are universally agreed to be weak are balance druids and shadow priests and even then, good players can take those to 2200+ in a strong comp.

[patience]

I can understand people not enjoying Arenas when ladder shows beyond any shadow of the doubt that you belong in the bottom 10% of WoW skill and you can't hide your personal failures by rolling in a zergball. Rest are justifications.

Wow arena is not about 'skill' it's about having the right class/spec comp for your group and that is it. Oh sure there's basic stuff you need to know but if you aren't X specced Y class, you aren't anything but cannon fodder.  Anyone who says differently is one of those specs and classes who can't understand why all the noobs whine See:Ret paladin at wotlk start.

This is absolutely false. Look at regular sports where everyone plays the same classes. Certain teams curbstomp others because they are composed of players with better training, on the fly thinking and superior physical attributes. Even in MMOs some pvpers are notrious for playing a game on hard mode (pvping with equipment a class everyone is known to be subpar and still raping people).

[WindupAtheist]

And some guys win at Street Fighter even as Dan. Except Capcom doesn't come along and go "Okay this week Ryu is the Dan! Go level Ken to 80 and gear him if you don't like it!"

[Sheepherder]

No one here is a lot different that no one anywhere.  This "The arena player's aren't being scapegoated.  But fuck those guys, I hate them." message is funny.

Scapegoat implies that blame is being irrationally assigned.  Again, don't be retarded.  The same goes for you Nightblade.  The only person in this thread assigned blame to anyone is you (sinij), who pointed out that Pardo, saying this:

We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

Was using arena players as a scapegoat.  Which is clearly nothing but frothing retardation on your part.  In short: doctor, heal thyself.

[sinij]

Competitive nature of PvP might be a shock to many people trying it for the first time, there is no whatsoever 'easing' into it. First time anyone tries arena they lose, lose and lose some more even if they are doing really well for a beginner.

I think Arena needs to be separated into leagues, just like sports.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Did someone just compare real life sports to wow arena play?

[Nebu]

WoW arena and pvp is somewhat skill based once gear is equal, but could be better balanced in terms of removing macros and banning certain UI enhancements.  There are many many ways to gain a competitive edge in pvp that go well beyond your knowledge of game mechanics and reaction times.  Those need to be equalized long before any arena pvp can be considered more than gimik exploitation.  

I've watched some pretty highly ranked people play in the arena and their "skill" amounted to little more than spatial awareness and hitting a multi-function macro key when their UI told them to. It doesn't begin to approach the skill it takes to be a good fps team.

[Gobbeldygook]

WoW arena and pvp is somewhat skill based once gear is equal, but could be better balanced in terms of removing macros and banning certain UI enhancements.  There are many many ways to gain a competitive edge in pvp that go well beyond your knowledge of game mechanics and reaction times.  Those need to be equalized long before any arena pvp can be considered more than gimik exploitation.  

That would be why the Arena tournaments ban all use of addons, although they allow macros.

The best proof to arena's taking skill is that many of the same teams and players keep winning tournaments year after year.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c Players are required to us MLG's "tournament UI" to make it easier to follow.

The setup: RMP vs RMP, 30k is on the line, both rogues are dead and one side still has a mage and priest up.  Both are at full health.  Orange is down to 30% health and almost OOM.  Yet the other side slipped up, gave him an opening, and with some split second decision making he was able to turn it around and take the prize.  This wasn't a one-time deal for him either; orange's team won the most recent tournament too, despite having to play against what is considered to be a hard countes for RMP, beast cleave.

[Fordel]

How is using the most dominate 3v3 comp not showing class balance/bias issues? Hasn't RMP won every 3v3 tourney except 1?

[WindupAtheist]

So they're given identical gear and forced to use identical interfaces. They then choose to create identical teams. (Because WoW is balanced and diverse!) After all of this, with every other possible consideration is ruthlessly stamped out, they're able to have a skillful match.

What exactly is this supposed to mean to the average dude who's just logged into WoW and is sitting there deciding what to do? Besides, everytime anyone playing an MMO talks about "gaming skill" some dude at a Street Fighter tournament starts laughing hysterically without knowing why.

[Gobbeldygook]

So they're given identical gear and forced to use identical interfaces. They then choose to create identical teams. (Because WoW is balanced and diverse!) After all of this, with every other possible consideration is ruthlessly stamped out, they're able to have a skillful match.

They don't choose to make 'identical teams' and they do get SOME choice in gear.  Gear is frozen at the tier 7/s5 level.  You can have your choice of just about any PVP or PVE gear you want.  Anyway, team comps at the most recent tournament included:

-Rogue/mage/priest
-druid/lock/dk (two such teams, when they went head to head one got dominated 3-0)
-bm hunter/enh shaman/holy paladin
-rogue/afflock/resto shaman
-survival hunter/enh shaman/druid

The only class that didn't see any play are warriors.

[Musashi]

I see their meddling with outdoor PvP zones, and the upcoming rated battlegrounds as hail marys.  I think they have hopes that something less 'srs bsns' will take over for arenas and they can gracefully bow out of them.  I don't really see it happening though.  But I am kind of interested in rated battlegrounds.  Vanilla wow guild v guild Arathi Basin was the best PvP has ever been in WoW.

All of these systems are even in less polished condition than Arenas. Any kind of emphasis, like BiS PvP gear handouts, will put it under microscope that will reveal all kinds of problems.

Map imbalances, assist trains, AoE CC, stack warfare and client issues. Do you think WoW is ready for competitive group PvP? Please, be realistic.

I don't know.  I don't care about gear differences, assist trains, AoE CC, stack warfare at all.  I think those things are just the whine de jour when you lose.  All of them perfectly acceptable mechanics according to me.  Map imbalances, okay, but that's not that hard to tune (except original AV lol).  And there's nothing you can do about client issues that hasn't already been done.  Of course you could also complain about lag.  But I mean, that would be too obvious.

I think the more people you introduce into the equation, the more variables there are.  Thus the less fine tuning it takes to be, you know, fun.  Which is what I was talking about.  The fewer players in Arenas just makes it more intently focued on those variables you're talking about, and yes they are the same variables.  It's the difference between the bleeding edge learning curve of Arenas, and the room for new imaginative strategy in Battlegrounds with more people that makes all the world of difference to me. 

The only problem I ever had with vanilla BG's was that it blew enormous chunks of ass in two flavors, depending on which side of the server you were on.  So what you ended up getting was this: 

1.  You were on the side that favored the pop balance and rolled pugs all day and then lost every time a team queued up because you were used to the strategy for rolling pugs.
2.  You were on the wrong side of the pop balance and had to wait an hour with your thumb up your ass in vent, talking over your strategy while raping noobs in BRM, and when the queue finally popped you had to make a whole bunch of noise to wake people up.  Then you did a line of coke and made that shit count.

Marrying the arena matchmaking system will solve that problem, and thus I will be happy.

[caladein]

What exactly is this supposed to mean to the average dude who's just logged into WoW and is sitting there deciding what to do? Besides, everytime anyone playing an MMO talks about "gaming skill" some dude at a Street Fighter tournament starts laughing hysterically without knowing why.

There's clearly a different skill set involved in playing in a Street Fighter tournament and a WoW Arena tournament.  There's some overlap in that at high levels a lot of it consists of feints, baiting, and other mental games but making decisions in the span of a few frame versus the the span of a GCD is different.

Fighting games operate at the boundaries of human reaction time.  WoW Arena play operates at intervals greater than one second which makes it more akin to speed chess with concurrent moves.

[Teleku]

I actually enjoyed arenas, and my group of friends had always talked about how cool it would be if they put something like arena's into the game since launch day.  The problem was all the gear and shit they tied to it, which forced them to balance appropriately.  If they had just put in a place where preset group of players could go at it in an instance, with no rewards involved (OK, maybe gain arena points you can spend on new capes or a pet or something), it would have been perfect.  Just another activity to do in the game.  No need to worry if certain group combo's rape others.

[Threash]

Skill is only involved in about 1% of arena matches at the top most of the ladder.  And thats only because the teams up there already have the best classes/specs/gear, so skill is the only thing setting them apart.  Its ridiculous to claim theres absolutely anything more to winning than class composition spec or gear to the rest of the people who play.

[Zetor]

If arena on live servers was the same as arena on tournament servers (preset gear, ability to create any char at 80, infinite respecs and free enchants / gems), I'd say it could be considered a 'skill' game, even with how racials / team setups / ping can make things unfair for one team or the other. (ping is a problem in any online competitive game)

The way arena is on live servers right now? haha no. Look at guild wars if you want competitive arena.

[Hoax]

If you watch that long ass 3v3 arena finals where the one mage makes an epic comeback from being down to 3v1 and then fights this hella long match with a priest and you see no skill in it I'm at a loss for words.

Or you are just WUA and you are a fucking retard who hates that people enjoy highly competitive pvp and gets his jollies from talking shit about the very concept.

I'm not into WoW pvp arenas for the same reason I'm not into MtG, the barrier for entry is too fucking high. Its too much time, money and effort to get a grasp on the metagame and be able to compete.  That doesn't mean there aren't people competing and enjoying the fuck out of it as the hardcore arena forum with very high activity and 100k+ registered users shows.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh I think there's a certain hyperbole here that people on the other side are deliberately missing. Certainly there's an element of skill present, especially in a tournament where players are handed the equivalent of months and months of super-hardcore play in order to eliminate every other factor. But those tournaments aren't part of real actual World of Warcraft and nobody outside of the ludicrously hardcore and the wannabes give a fucking shit what goes on in them.

"Hey, once all the character and gear progression otherwise known as 'World of Wacraft' was stripped away from Arena there were some really great matches!"

Nobody outside of the kind of toolbox who'll actually sit and watch MMO PVP as a spectator gives a fuck. For the average real WoW player entering an Arena match, there are three things that will determine the outcome.

1) Class/spec compostion of the teams
2) Relative gear levels
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3) Some level of skill above average

Even so, nobody really minds one way or the other. Except for the fact that since it's inception the developers have been cramming it down everyone's throat with a plunger handle, basically telling everyone IF YOU PVP AND IT'S NOT ARENA THEN FUCK YOU. An attitude that they thankfully seem to have awakened from.

[Hoax]

Yes it only takes a little bit of skill above average.  Sure sure WUA, if you cared you could be awesome at it.  Just like everyone else.  Not that your point about skill not being a determinate for people in the lower tiers who aren't trying to be really good at it.  But as usual you can't help  but show off how fucking ignorant you are of what high level competition, even in a e-sport or in any game really entails.  There is a lot of skill.  If there wasn't certain people wouldn't excel the way they do.

[Simond]

If Arena was all about skill and the 'e-honour', and not about gear/comp/etc & free lewts, then everyone who did arena would play on the pregen Arena servers only.

[Ashamanchill]

The Arena was fun when it first came out in TBC. It was perfect for my small group of friends. That was back when we would see wierd and interesting compositions, like 3 boomkins all summoning their treants, or 3 warlocks who would dick around by fearing us around the ring, and funny tactics and shit. Then it became serious, and the fun was extracted from it surgically.

No one in my guild, or any of my friends guild plays it anymore, I don't see anyone at all wearing it's gear around dal or the other cities excpet on the rarest occaisions. With the arenas Blizzard did what I never thought they could do, they made pvp less fun than raiding.

[jakonovski]

You can have your arena when it stops affecting my PvE experience. That ok with you 1337 5k1llZ d00d5?

[Chimpy]

You can have your arena when it stops affecting my PvE experience. That ok with you 1337 5k1llZ d00d5?

This was my gripe with PvP's implementation in WoW. It really needed an entireley different "ruleset" balancing the skills. Instead, changes to skills/talents made to enhance PvP end up breaking PvE or vice versa.

I don't play anymore and never plan on playing again, but this is one of the reasons I quit playing. I just got tired of having my class 're-balanced' for one part of the game I rarely participated in and adversely affecting the part of the game I (and most others) were paying for.

[ghost]

I don't know why they can't balance things differently when someone is participating in PvP versus PvE stuff.  Just make the ruleset different when you enter into the Arena.  Can't be that hard. 

[Venkman]

I don't know why they can't balance things differently when someone is participating in PvP versus PvE stuff.  Just make the ruleset different when you enter into the Arena.  Can't be that hard. 

It's not "hard", it's just extremely time consuming. The stats, the talents, the gear, probably the quests, and all of the associated itemization has to be different. And it's got to account for people who'll do both PvE and PvP. It's effectively creating two WoWs, which as this interview has put words to, is not an inconsiderable task.

[Nebu]

Have players zone into the arena with set gear that is 100% equal (would take a little time to balance across classes).  Then you limit player advantage to skill, experience, macros, group build, and UI elements.  Arena rewards would then be titles and perhaps some gear that would help in WG/BG's. 

[ghost]

Have players zone into the arena with set gear that is 100% equal (would take a little time to balance across classes).  Then you limit player advantage to skill, experience, macros, group build, and UI elements.  Arena rewards would then be titles and perhaps some gear that would help in WG/BG's. 

See, not that hard.  Nebu fixed it.

[Zetor]

Yes, a lot of us who played WOW arena have been saying that for a while (and some 'arenajunkies' have, as well). Watch -- in less than 5 posts someone will say "but if there is no gear reward from arenas, why would people play them?" and we'll be back to where we were in the previous 5 threads.