Blizzard's VP of Game Design admits Arenas the biggest mistake.

[sinij]

Here is what Blizzard's VP of Game Design, Rob Pardo  has to say about Arenas:

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.

If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."  

from warcry.com interview.

You would think Blizzard VP would be smart enough to avoid telling large chunk of their player base that they are "the biggest mistake".  Abashi, is this you?


For people that don't play WoW (yes, all two of you) - Arena is competitive PvP system with broad community support and official ranking/ladder and in-game prizes.

[Nebu]

Seriously though, most people know that the arena game is broken.  The only other obvious mistake the guy could cite was that they didn't order enough cloth bags with dollar signs printed on them to hold all the cash that they would eventually rake in. 

[Malakili]

 There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing.

Story of my life.  Well, almost.  I always knew exactly why my class was changing, and when it was PvP it didn't confuse me, it just pissed me off.

I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.

really? Really? REALLY??!?!?!

[Tarami]

I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.

really? Really? REALLY??!?!?!

In their defence, nobody really qualified (ergo sitting on a shitpile of cash and resources) had had a stab at it prior to WoW. Are the signs there for a fool to see? Perhaps, but prior to Blizzard actually making a real effort to balance things we weren't able to say "not even Blizzard can make it work!" SoE, Mythic or whomever never really cared for one side of the game, which Blizzard decided to do. Essentially it was a lesson someone had to learn (PvP and PvE don't mix), and it being Blizzard makes that lesson so much clearer.

Now, if some people had actually understood that lesson, some games could have been much more successful in the long term.

[Malakili]

I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.

really? Really? REALLY??!?!?!

In their defence, nobody really qualified (ergo sitting on a shitpile of cash and resources) had had a stab at it prior to WoW. Are the signs there for a fool to see? Perhaps, but prior to Blizzard actually making a real effort to balance things we weren't able to say "not even Blizzard can make it work!" SoE, Mythic or whomever never really cared for one side of the game, which Blizzard decided to do. Essentially it was a lesson someone had to learn (PvP and PvE don't mix), and it being Blizzard makes that lesson so much clearer.

Now, if some people had actually understood that lesson, some games could have been much more successful in the long term.

I remember quite clearly when Arenas came out thinking "man, they haven't even been able to come close to balancing PvP in battlegrounds, there is no way in hell they are going to be able to do this."  This wasn't just my idle musings either, my entire raiding guild was pretty sure it was going to be a train wreck waiting to happen.   I mean, granted, it hadn't been tried like you said, so we couldn't say with the "certainty" we do now, but I don't feel like it was totally out of the blue like "Oh wow, this is really hard to balance AND its messing with PvE balance, I am totally caught off guard due to this stunning change of events."

[Sjofn]

Seriously though, most people know that the arena game is broken.  The only other obvious mistake the guy could cite was that they didn't order enough cloth bags with dollar signs printed on them to hold all the cash that they would eventually rake in. 

I think that's what "I wish we didn't have such server problems at launch" was code for. 

[Fordel]

Arena's were some higher ups pet project. That's the only explanation I can rationalize at this point. They've been so forced onto the player base again and again. Just a total "this WILL work, I *know* it will, JUST WAIT AND SEE  " drive behind it, someone couldn't let it go.

The Flaws with Arena weren't illuminated with hindsight. Anyone who played WoW for 10 minutes could tell you why they were a bad idea.

[Musashi]

There's a lot of people who play Arenas.  There's a lot of people who only play Arenas.  And I don't think he's admitting that they can't handle it.  I think he's just saying that it was probably not a smart decision to put the kind of pressure on his people required to balance for competitive PvP and PvE.  I don't think they can be blamed for it, as nobody's ever been successful enough at it to know what kind of pressure it would be. 

Of course mouth-breathing retards who stumble upon that quote will throw poo everywhere.

[Fordel]

He's basically wishing he could build WoW with Arena's in mind from the ground up... since it's painfully obvious it was NOT.

[Tarami]

WoW's dabblings with PvP are much older than Arenas though, I'm rather more talking about trying to combine PvP and PvE at all. Battlegrounds came in patch... 3? 4? It wasn't a completely foreign concept to have PvP in WoW at any point and I can see why someone thought "but if we isolate all the factors by sticking people in an arena, we can more easily tune it", because it looks good on paper.

The thing is, they wanted to make something for PvPers, but battlegrounds didn't really work as well as they liked so they applied more engineering and got arenas, which in theory should be easier to balance because of their smaller scope. Problem is, compressing the scope also intensifies all of the issues. I think it would have been more correct to say that organized PvP in general was a mistake, because the actual PvP component doesn't work out really well in any scenario. Battlegrounds work better because they are less PvP and more PvE which better disguises that there's no real balance. All arenas themselves do is bringing out the issues in plain view. I don't think it's an absolute error as such.

[Fordel]

Except for the fact Blizzard devs regularly told the player base back when BG's first came out that they wouldn't be making a "Death match" BG due to the balance ramifications. 

Most BG issues revolved around the original honour system (terrible), population/queue imbalances and just a general lack of support. PvP has always been an after thought for WoW, both in design and resources. When they finally devote resources to it, they shovel it all into the flawed at a base Arena system.

[Sheepherder]

When they finally devote resources to it, they shovel it all into the flawed at a base Arena system.

No. You, by your own admission, were there for the original honour system.  You had to have seen the rage normalization patch.  You know the shit you are saying is, precisely, shit.  They constantly tried to balance PvP, but they never added an advancement path via it.  The difference is not inconsequential.

P.S: I've had far to much to drink, forgive me if I'm incomprehensible.

[Simond]

There's a lot of people who play Arenas.  There's a lot of people who only play Arenas.

{citation required} 

[Simond]

The funniest thing is Pardo saying "Oh, but lots of people enjoy Arenas so we can't just remove them!"

No. No, lots of people don't enjoy arenas. Lots of people, in fact, simply see Arenas as a short-cut to decent weapons and armour and take part for that reason alone. See Season 7, where 2v2 teams were nerfed plus PvE content is readily available and gives out just as good rewards...and the number of people taking part in the season has fallen through the floor.

[Tannhauser]

It was refreshing to read Mr. Pardo's comments.  He comes off as a pretty sincere guy.  Anyway, I feel they tried to be all things to all people and the core game-play took a hit from that.  But I guess they had to do something with pvp; TM/Southshore was crashing the servers.  So then came bg's and the downhill slide began.

It would have been interesting to have a pve-only server.  They could let you talk to the other side and maybe trade as well.
Although I don't agree with some of their design decisions (just canceled until Cataclysm), it's good to see someone openly discussing why they made those decisions.

[Sheepherder]

No. No, lots of people don't enjoy arenas. Lots of people, in fact, simply see Arenas as a short-cut to decent weapons and armour and take part for that reason alone. See Season 7, where 2v2 teams were nerfed plus PvE content is readily available and gives out just as good rewards...and the number of people taking part in the season has fallen through the floor.

There were better reasons to wear pvp gear in TBC.

[sinij]

Regardless of merits of Blizzard's arguments, alienating chunk of your player base by blaming your own balancing difficulties on them and designating them official scapegoat in the eyes of the rest of your player base is as stupid as it gets.

[Venkman]

The funniest thing is Pardo saying "Oh, but lots of people enjoy Arenas so we can't just remove them!"

No. No, lots of people don't enjoy arenas. Lots of people, in fact, simply see Arenas as a short-cut to decent weapons and armour and take part for that reason alone. See Season 7, where 2v2 teams were nerfed plus PvE content is readily available and gives out just as good rewards...and the number of people taking part in the season has fallen through the floor.

This sounds suspiciously like my recent comments about Raids (who actually enjoys them except for the gear?). And I realized I was wrong there, so suspect you're wrong here.

Arenas have been in long enough to have created their own community around them. So whatever is said in retrospect is irrelevant except for the next game that can learn from it.

[tmp]

Regardless of merits of Blizzard's arguments, alienating chunk of your player base by blaming your own balancing difficulties on them and designating them official scapegoat in the eyes of the rest of your player base is as stupid as it gets.

I kinda read Pardo's comment to be more along lines of "trying to bolt the arenas onto a game which wasn't designed from it from the beginning was our biggest mistake because we'd never imagine just how much fucking work it is going to be to constantly tweak these classes back and forth". I.e. if they blame anyone, it's themselves.

[Nebu]

That's how I read it as well.  Sort of a "we're sorry that we added an element that really will never have the time & balance that it deserves". 

It's very difficult to balance pve and pvp in an achiever's game.  The multitude of failures post WoW demonstrate this. 

[Ratman_tf]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a prelude to them putting Arenas on the bottom of the totem pole of balance consideration. Something's gotta give, and I don't see that being the PvE game.

[Modern Angel]

Regardless of merits of Blizzard's arguments, alienating chunk of your player base by blaming your own balancing difficulties on them and designating them official scapegoat in the eyes of the rest of your player base is as stupid as it gets.

What the fuck is wrong with you? He didn't say anything of the sort. He said this shit is hard, we probably shouldn't have tackled it. I don't know how yo...

Of course mouth-breathing retards who stumble upon that quote will throw poo everywhere.

Ooohhhhhhhhh

[Shrike]

Arenas should be placed in the chute that leads to the killing stall and dealt with accordingly. Doubt it'll happen, but it should.

[Nightblade]

I suppose I should be thankful to Arenas, they're the reason I quit WoW in the first place... But I had a feeling this would be a clusterfuck from the moment it was announced.

The only thing worse than Arena itself would be the giant ball sacks that the high end Arena community is comprised of.

[sinij]

PvP is content multiplier. How many more raids would Bliz have to push out to keep people occupied if there wasn't PvP?

I suppose when you are not raiding you could always do crafting or decorate your player housing... oh wait, UO had it in 97 but WoW in 09 is yet to implement it.

[WindupAtheist]

I like WoW PVP, basically. I like Battlegrounds and Wintergrasp, and even the odd bit of random world-fighting. But I never had any interest in Arena and it's little deathmatch-in-a-box routine.

[Numtini]

PvP is content multiplier. How many more raids would Bliz have to push out to keep people occupied if there wasn't PvP?

I'm skeptical about this. I don't know anyone who raids that does PVP other than when it's mandatory for some sort of equipment or reward. Ditto for PVE and my PVP friends.

[Venkman]

I agree with Numtini. This isn't a multiplier, it's an alternative. Two completely different endgames is an attempt to have more than one playstyle fulfilled, to have a bigger retained audience banging on static content. It allows you to ammortize the cost of that content over time.

The thing they didn't predict is how much additional work it would take to have to balance the game in two different ways for those two different endgames.

[Musashi]

There's a lot of people who play Arenas.  There's a lot of people who only play Arenas.

{citation required} 

http://www.arenajunkies.com/

All the citation you need.

Moving on, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with PvP in an Achiever game.  I just think that if you don't have separate abilities for PvP and PvE, then it becomes insane to balance both the gear and abilities while considering essentially two separate games.  But on the other hand if you give people separate abilities, then the game itself becomes less organic, and probably cumbersome for players.  I just don't see an elegant solution to that problem.  There may be one, of course.  But I don't see it.

I see their meddling with outdoor PvP zones, and the upcoming rated battlegrounds as hail marys.  I think they have hopes that something less 'srs bsns' will take over for arenas and they can gracefully bow out of them.  I don't really see it happening though.  But I am kind of interested in rated battlegrounds.  Vanilla wow guild v guild Arathi Basin was the best PvP has ever been in WoW.

[Merusk]

PvP is content multiplier. How many more raids would Bliz have to push out to keep people occupied if there wasn't PvP?

I'm skeptical about this. I don't know anyone who raids that does PVP other than when it's mandatory for some sort of equipment or reward. Ditto for PVE and my PVP friends.

*raise* Hi, I'm one.  I do it when I want to play, but just don't feel like running another heroic or raid that day.   There's at least 5 others like me in my guild, and I've known several others through the years.  Some of us just enjoy the game and all aspects of it... except arenas. 

[sinij]

 I can understand people not enjoying Arenas when ladder shows beyond any shadow of the doubt that you belong in the bottom 10% of WoW skill and you can't hide your personal failures by rolling in a zergball. Rest are justifications.

[sinij]

I see their meddling with outdoor PvP zones, and the upcoming rated battlegrounds as hail marys.  I think they have hopes that something less 'srs bsns' will take over for arenas and they can gracefully bow out of them.  I don't really see it happening though.  But I am kind of interested in rated battlegrounds.  Vanilla wow guild v guild Arathi Basin was the best PvP has ever been in WoW.

All of these systems are even in less polished condition than Arenas. Any kind of emphasis, like BiS PvP gear handouts, will put it under microscope that will reveal all kinds of problems.

Map imbalances, assist trains, AoE CC, stack warfare and client issues. Do you think WoW is ready for competitive group PvP? Please, be realistic.

[Mrbloodworth]

Regardless of merits of Blizzard's arguments, alienating chunk of your player base by blaming your own balancing difficulties on them and designating them official scapegoat in the eyes of the rest of your player base is as stupid as it gets.

I must have read a different article than you I think.

[WindupAtheist]

Hey look, a bullshit failure of a PVP system that only a handful of vocal douchebags enjoy and which even the developer admits was a flawed idea from the beginning. Who could have imagined that we'd find Sinij trying to champion it in his uniquely retarded fashion, making vague allusions that the company will someday regret "alienating" his dipshit demographic and whining like an infant that anyone who doesn't enjoy it must suck?

Downright shocking, I tell you! Yet strangely familiar...  

[Lakov_Sanite]

I can understand people not enjoying Arenas when ladder shows beyond any shadow of the doubt that you belong in the bottom 10% of WoW skill and you can't hide your personal failures by rolling in a zergball. Rest are justifications.

Wow arena is not about 'skill' it's about having the right class/spec comp for your group and that is it. Oh sure there's basic stuff you need to know but if you aren't X specced Y class, you aren't anything but cannon fodder.  Anyone who says differently is one of those specs and classes who can't understand why all the noobs whine See:Ret paladin at wotlk start.